BS: Caliphate

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: GUEST,Bruce Murdoch
Date: 04 Jul 14 - 09:39 PM

I wish to know why the people who post here have not questioned ISIS's intent. Included in their territorial map is the entire country of Israel. I hereby accuse you of being Jew haters and of less worth than Nazis. You are despicable, the fucking lot of you. Seven million people have less worth to you than your ideal? In the parlance, may your balls rot.

Bruce Murdoch

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 04 Jul 14 - 10:16 PM

Until something is done about Israel - i.e., giving the Palestinians a state and getting Israel out of the West Bank, they are always going to have a target drawn on them. The U.S. has let them get away with a lot of nonsense for too long. Every time there is progress in peace talks - more settlements are announced. They do it EVERY TIME. Israel isn't an innocent victim in a lot of its own troubles.

I haven't followed this thread, I just looked to be sure that someone signing their name "Bruce Murdoch" really is Bruce. So I'm just responding to your angry outburst - I find myself much less ardent a fan of Israel as they continue to goad their neighbors. Yes they have been victims, in a lot of ways for centuries. But for today and in the here an now, they aren't behaving themselves well. The romance of the Jewish homeland is gone, it is now a long-running tragedy for many people.

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: GUEST,Bruce Murdoch
Date: 05 Jul 14 - 12:33 AM

You're talking philosophy, ma'am. I'm talking about a pending genocide.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 05 Jul 14 - 02:00 AM

Our guest Bruce is excitable.

The map published by ABC News has been shown to be a fake. So far, ISIS/ISIL has not produced any map showing their intent. They have been consolidating their hold on a swatch of Syria and Iraq. They seem to be fanatics through their actions, with little chance of gathering support from moderate Muslims.

In case my mention that the mayor of Calgary may be considered a moderate Islamist was unclear, our hard-working mayor, Naheed Nenshi, is a Muslim, who found almost no opposition in his run for re-election.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: akenaton
Date: 05 Jul 14 - 04:01 AM

Bruce is correct, these people are a "real and present danger" to the world....and Israel is right in the front line.
Sorry SRS, I share your views on the Palestinian predicament, but addressing this issue is more important for the safety of all.

It is, as in many other issues, a matter of priorities.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: akenaton
Date: 05 Jul 14 - 04:12 AM

Q..." They seem to be fanatics through their actions, with little chance of gathering support from moderate Muslims."

Moderate Muslims, can quickly be made into immoderate ones, by having a knife held to their throats?
We are not talking NYC here, more like the Wild West?

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: GUEST,CJB
Date: 05 Jul 14 - 04:17 AM

Why ISIS will fail - but not before murdering millions:

Al-Qaida's Seven Rules for the Effective Terrorist

ISIS is breaking all of them. It will live to regret it.

By William Saletan

http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/frame_game/2014/06/osama_bin_laden_s_seven_rules_for_terrorists_isis_will_regret_not_following.single.html

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 Jul 14 - 04:21 AM

"Moderate Muslims, can quickly be made into immoderate ones"
So there we have it - we can't trust any of them so we should send them all back to where they came from, and those we can't....?
And maybe we should pack off all those homos at the same time before they give us all AIDS
Ranting racist garbage befitting the most squalid of the gutter-extremist sites.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 05 Jul 14 - 04:36 AM

I genuinely don't think you help, Jim, by ranting immoderately in return. How about some attempts at rational reply rather than these knee-jerk denunciations, of any opinion differing from your own world-view, as malevolently motivated? We all know you are a man of strong feelings and high principles; but these infuriated outbursts of yours, full of boo-words like "ranting racist garbage" &c, really do your cause & pov no benefit. No-one has advocated "send 'em all back" &c. We are back to your accusing me that time of saying they are here to "steal our jobs", when you had to admit subsequently that I had in fact made no mention of jobs whatsoever, and you were just being "logically rhetorical" or some such evasive locution. Try simmering down a bit ~~ it will be better for your blood-pressure, as well as for your argumentative position.

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 Jul 14 - 06:57 AM

Sorry Mike - this is basic stuff
Ake has been at this far too long to be open to reason - tried it years ago with his homophobia.
Blanket condemnation of the entire Muslim population as being a threat, either actual or potential, leaves you with no foothold n which to begin to argue.
I wouldn't bother to try to get Nick Griffin to see the error of his ways - why shoud I bother with a serial bigot?
I appreciate your intentions.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 05 Jul 14 - 07:12 AM

No Michael. You do not appease bastards. You shout them down and confront them.

You can't educate pork so why bother trying.

There is no such thigh as a moderate Muslim. There is no such thing as a moderate Christian. There is no such thing as a moderate Jew.

There are people who have religious belief and belonging. That does not make them a criminal using religion as an excuse for dominating others.

There are people who use their religion as an excuse for atrocity. But to say that every Muslim is a potential terrorist is no different than saying every Scottish man is a potential patient in Carstairs.

He is getting worse. He needs stamping on.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 05 Jul 14 - 07:15 AM

But, then, I disagree re homophobia, as you may recall from a post I put on another thread late last year & think it worth reposting here ~~

Subject: RE: BS: Why I am gone
From: MtheGM - PM
Date: 28 Sep 13 - 02:40 AM

I really feel it time someone objected to all this abuse of Akenaton. He seems to me simply to be trying to draw attention to a statistical conclusion which he finds of concern. He repeatedly quotes the actual statistics, which seem to be from respectable sources, but which nobody SFAICS has actually disputed. Instead, he has been cast in the role of The Messenger To Be Shot.
I do not like the implication of his statistics either; but they do give pause for thought. I do not think the 'whataboutery' to which they have been subjected in any way argumentatively convincing. I particularly think Musket's messenger-shooting, in the form of constantly rendering the penultimate syllable of his nickname as 'hate', to be, not only unwitty in the extreme, but an exceptionally cheap shot: think about it a bit more deeply, Ian -- please.
Instead of constantly abusing the man, why don't some of you try to find a few genuine counter-arguments. You are all reminding me of the ones who oh-so-predictably scream 'racism' any time the values of any ethnicity are questioned or impugned. So why not look for a few convincing arguments to replace these constant squeals of 'gayist', which add nothing to the concerning question as to whether SMS does or does not appear to show a statistical unbalance in regard to STDs?
I repeat ~~ I hate the idea that this might be the case; but accusing the person who adduces evidence ['evidence', I repeat -- not mere assertion] of being purely hate-motivated seems to me but an unworthy, vain, irrational, and counterproductive reaction.

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 Jul 14 - 07:32 AM

Then we must agree to differ on Ake's homophobia here.
I have never accepted his statistics as reliable, but to use them as a form of persecution, even if they were accurate, is unacceptable.
His basic stance has always been that homosexuality ids unnatural, optional and 'curable' - which is the basis of all homophobia.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 05 Jul 14 - 11:18 AM

ISIS caught people by surprise. There will be pushback. Just because they say they want to do something doesn't mean they will be able to.

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: akenaton
Date: 05 Jul 14 - 11:46 AM

Thank you Michael, you are a man of reason. A gentleman in the true sense of the word.

Ian and Jim, along with their acolytes know exactly what they are doing, their attacks are simply a tactic. They are afraid of the truth, afraid of their ideology, as they have nothing to put in its place. They have invested their lives in a handful of dross and they simply cannot bear to admit it.

It worries me that so many people remain silent when these tactics are used....I think most of the mods understand what is going on, but most of the membership seem to believe that I deserve to be punished for daring to rock the good ship Mudcat.

I have never condemned ALL Muslims, but I have condemned Islamists, who are regarded by most people as dangerous psychopaths.
Jim and Ian know that very well, but find it more useful to attack me personally than address the issue.
I am certainly not a "hater" of homosexuals, but am concerned about legislating in favour of a lifestyle which is so obviously unhealthy, and destructive to society and homosexuals.
The remark about a "knife to the throat" was to elucidate that "moderates" can be easily subverted by fundamentalist radicals when law and order has broken down in society.

Our misplaced interventions in Iraq and Libya have left a bitter harvest to be reaped.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 Jul 14 - 12:57 PM

Ake
You have had every opportunity to respond to what I have said; you choose to throw stones from a distance and stay silent.
How dare you suggest legislating for homosexuality to bring the world into the 21st century is "so obviously unhealthy, and destructive to society and homosexuals" - what century to you exist in?
"I have never condemned ALL Muslims,"
"Moderate Muslims, can quickly be made into immoderate ones, by having a knife held to their throats" is doing just that - damned if they are terrorists (rightly) damned if they are not, because they could easily be
The issue has always been addressed
Personally, I gave up when you suggested that the Norwegian mass-murder Breivik when he slaughtered all those young people.
You didn't elucidate then and I don't suppose you will now.
I think our friend has made my point for me far better than I possibly could Mike
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Musket
Date: 05 Jul 14 - 01:17 PM

What is going on is that Akenaton posts views that are a stain on Mudcat. A folk club thread was mentioned at a folk club I was at the other week and the organiser said they don't use Mudcat for anything as they don't wish the club to be associated with some of the hatred that infiltrates it now.

How dare you say that normal people getting on with their lives are destructive to themselves and society? How dare you call normal people "moderate" and infer that they could be subverted?

You are an embarrassment.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 05 Jul 14 - 01:55 PM

Are Islamists in Tunisia terrorists?
In the Tunisian Assembly, a coalition of Islamists, leftists and liberals worked out a new constitution, "laying the foundation for a new democracy." CTV (Canadian) news, Jan 2014.
The moderate Islamist party, which holds 40% of the 216 seats in the assembly, backed down on putting religious inspired measures into the constitution.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 06 Jul 14 - 12:29 PM

The leader, Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi, is destroying Shite mosques and holy places in territory his group controls. He is calling himself Caliph Ibrahim.
He is now the world's most wanted man.
I think his rule won't be long; only the most radical Sunnis and jihadists will support him.
An Iranian-supplied plane or a drone will end his roll.

Left behind, however, is the continuing Sunni-Shia split, just how the Iraqi lands will be divided, and whether a truce can be forged.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 06 Jul 14 - 12:32 PM

Good question, Q.

It will be interesting to seen if Tunisian Islamists mature into a responsible party in governance, or if they are biding their time. I think most of us are hoping for the former.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: GUEST
Date: 06 Jul 14 - 12:34 PM

Shite Mosques? Hmmm. Freudian slip?

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: akenaton
Date: 06 Jul 14 - 01:14 PM

Jim....If "radical Christians" were about to slit my throat, or butcher my family if I did not accept their belief....and there was no structure of law and order to protect us, my atheism would be swifly abandoned, my views subverted.

Fortunately I do not live in Iraq, Syria, or Libya and I know of no Christians who would dream of such subversion.
Radical Islamists think it their duty to rid the world of those who disagree with their faith.

Rather like Ian thinks it his duty to rid this forum of me.
Their mindset is remarkably similar.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 Jul 14 - 01:32 PM

In all the countries mentioned the conflict is a reaction to the West's actions - drones - Falluja - illegal oil wars, Abu Graib, Guantanamo, non-action on Assad (unless you count arms and equipment sales as action), Israel...
It is yet to be established that any of this has anything to do with "faith".
The only threat to the UK is in the part it has played and continues to play in all of these.
To use a conflict which started as an attempt to democratise the Middle East is simply agenda driving to back up your obvious hatred of Muslims - second only to your hatred of homosexuals.
If there is a risk to Britain, the answer lies in gaining the support of Muslims, not in antagonising them with hatred such as yours.
As far as I am concerned, people like you are as much a threat to our safety and well being as any radical islamist.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: akenaton
Date: 06 Jul 14 - 01:51 PM

What do you mean when you say that I am more of a danger than radical Islamists Jim? Do you mean that my words may upset them and cause them to slit all our throats, or blow us up, or fly aircraft into our tall buildings?.......I don't flatter my self that my views go any further than the pages of this forum, they are driven by other ideologies.

Get a grip man.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 06 Jul 14 - 01:52 PM

Sorry- lost an 'i'.

Shiite or Shi'ite.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: bobad
Date: 06 Jul 14 - 06:57 PM

"I just looked to be sure that someone signing their name "Bruce Murdoch" really is Bruce."

Why would you question if it really is Bruce? If you don't know, he is someone who has been championing the fight against prejudice and injustice since the 60s and there is certainly much of that in evidence here at Mudcat. I say bravo Bruce - call them out for what they are and keep on fighting the good fight!

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 06 Jul 14 - 10:52 PM

Bruce had a rather unflattering imitator stalk him for a few years, the old mudcat troll. If Bruce signs his name it's rare so we check to be sure that it's real. I know who he is - I hope we all know who he is!

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Jul 14 - 02:06 AM

"What do you mean when you say that I am more of a danger than radical Islamists Jim?"
Because your hate is not aimed at them, but at Muslims.
You and your associate terrorism with being a Muslim - their religion, the way they dress, communities being "hotbeds" for terrorism - the classic Thatcherist "enemy within".
Despite the fact tat there are one nd a half million Muslims in Britain today, you have sneered at the idea of 'multiculturalism'.
If there is a problem with multiculturalism, it is because of those who are not prepared to accept 'strangers in our midst', certainly not because those coming to Britain are not prepared to integrate.
Survey show that Muslims, of all immigrants, are prepared to settle in Britain and be recocgnised as British, yet they remain the most persecuted and terrorised - and this pre-dates any 'Islamism' - Paki-bashing was a phenomenon throughout a large part of my life, certainly when I lived in London.
You have talked about terrorism among the Muslim communities - you claim that those who aren't terrorists are potential terrorists because of "the knife to the throat", in the past you have linked terrorism with immigration - you have merged the fact of Muslimism and terrorism into one single entity.
Simple question - what exactly do you propose should be done about the million and a half Muslims living in Britain today - send them back to their place of origin, electronically tag them - issue them with identity papers with a legal demand that they produce them on demand - ghettoise them so the can't move freely with us 'real Britons - or something else???
f there is a problem with returning Jihadists, a key factor to solving that problem is to win the hearts and minds of the Muslim people as a whole - even morons like Cameron have recognised and reiterated that fact.
This is not going to be possible if they continue to be made outsiders and are depicted as a threat.
Of course you views go further than this forum - they are to be found on every extremist site available, Muslim Watch, the N.D.L. the B.N.P., Ukip (though toned down there a little for the sake of political respectability)
You and yours have been long with us - you are a shameful part of history.   
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: akenaton
Date: 07 Jul 14 - 02:39 AM

Jim, I can only assume that you do not comprehend what I have written.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Musket
Date: 07 Jul 14 - 03:38 AM

Most of us would rather not comprehend what he writes either. I never thought there could be so much twisted hatred and cynicism in one person.

Even when there is nothing original in what he writes. He lets far right websites do his talking through cut and paste.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Jul 14 - 03:40 AM

"Jim, I can only assume that you do not comprehend what I have written."
Seems a good way to say nothing but try to give the impression you have.
You have a number of simple questions - assume I have a modicum of intelligence and answer them - doesn't get any more simple.
So far you have given a politicians answer - I'm surprised you didn't open with "I'm glad you asked me that question , but what I would like to make clear that my party is doing its utmost....."
Give us a break Ake!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: beardedbruce
Date: 07 Jul 14 - 07:59 AM

Tha Palestinian Arabs have had a Homeland since 1923 or so.

775 of the Mandate Palestine territory, in violation of the treaty creating the Mandate, was split off and made into the Arab Homeland of TransJordan, where NO Jews were allowed to settle or even own property. This was accepted by the Arabs.

The REAMAINING 32+ % of the original Mandate were to be the Jewish homeland as specified in the treaties.

In 1948, THAT (Jewish Homeland) land was divided, but the Arabs would not accept any division less than ALL for the Moslems, so they attacked the Jews. Jordan occupied the West bank, and removed all of the Jewish population that had been there previously.


The Arabs LOST, and have been demanding the unconditional surrender of Israel ever since.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: GUEST,keith A at Lochearnhead
Date: 07 Jul 14 - 08:37 AM

You and your associate terrorism with being a Muslim

No-one has.
Only with being an Islamist, which if you have been following recent events is regarded currently as the greatest terror threat by far.

Survey show that Muslims, of all immigrants, are prepared to settle in Britain and be recognised as British,

That is good, but what surveys?
We know from MI5 and Anti-Terror Police that there are thousands of them here who regard the public as legitimate targets to attack and kill.
That may be a small proportion, but you seem to be denying it.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: bobad
Date: 07 Jul 14 - 08:41 AM

"Bruce had a rather unflattering imitator stalk him for a few years, the old mudcat troll. If Bruce signs his name it's rare so we check to be sure that it's real. I know who he is - I hope we all know who he is!"

Fair enough SRS. My first thought on reading your post was that you were questioning his identity because of his stand on this issue. My mistake.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Jul 14 - 09:01 AM

Whatever appeared on a scrap of paper to suit the colonialist powers, the Arabs have occupied that territory for millienia
Neither side accepted the treaties fully - the Israelis went along with it and immediately began to slaughter to occupants, even as the Brits were steaming out to sea - they have been clearing the area by force ever since.
Whatever agreement is finally reached, it has to take that fact into account, including the millions of refugees Israel has refused to allow to return to their right homeland.
the lie that the Palestinian leadership ordered Palestinians to leave the area until the fighting sorted itself out surfaced recently - no such thing
Irish radio, under the direction of Erskine Childers, monitored broadcasts coming out of Israel at the time was in fact, the opposite was the case.
The instruction was to hold ground and remain where they were.
The problem here is a massive human tragedy - not documents drawn up decades ago which have no relevance to political expediency
Live with that fact
Ake just has, with his "knife to the throat" - you have always denigrated Muslim people with attacks on their culture.
We've learned to live with that
"That is good, but what surveys?"
You've been given them ad nauseum - read what has been put up.
Jim Carroll
MUSLIM BRITISHNESS

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Musket
Date: 07 Jul 14 - 10:19 AM

"There are thousands of them here who regard the public as legitimate targets.."

No.

Wrong.

Unsubstantiated bollocks.

I thought we were getting two weeks off from stupid rash remarks?

Oh, and who are "they"?

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Mrrzy
Date: 07 Jul 14 - 01:06 PM

Of course terrorism is associated with being moslem. You can't *be* a radical moslem (termed here islamist) without being moslem. The association is statistical - there were only three real types of terrorists in the recent before-time: ETA, Basque terrorists, who targeted Spanish and French civilian targets to gain political points for independence for the Basque countries; the IRA, Irish terrorists, who targeted British civilian targets to gain political points for independence for northern Ireland, and the (no neat set of initials) moslem (and arab, then) terrorists whom targeted American people and things which they believed to be christian, to gain political points against the West. After 9/11 ETA and the IRA decided not to do it anymore, so all we have left are the radical moslem terrorists, who are not only arabs anymore, see Nigeria for instance, but are still radical moslems. It is being moslem that does not predict being a terrorist, not the other way around.
Yes, an American christian couple of guys did bomb an American building full of government civilians who weren't civilians in their twisted little minds, but there is no global movement among christians or Americans in general to target we Americans for being perceived as christian. (There is a massive American christian movement against those who aren't both, but that's another thread.)
When the WTC was bombed the first time it pretty much *had* to be moslem radical anti-Western terrorists, but I was accused of racism when I said so, although the particular accuser shut right up when I was right. But who else targeted Americans, at the time? This was pre-OKCity, after all, we didn't know about the homeboys, but still, if you are a terrorist today, you are certainly radical, religious, and moslem.
Being moslem, however, does *not* make you likely to be a terrorist because so few moslems are that radical, even though all the radicals left are moslem.
It's exactly like being a New Yorker compared to living in the States. You can't live in New York and not live in the States, but just because you live in the States doesn't mean you have any likelihood at all of living in New York.
And those of you who know me know whereof I get my experience with terrorism.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: GUEST,keith A at Lochearnhead
Date: 07 Jul 14 - 01:23 PM

"Thousands of Islamist extremists in the UK see the British public as a legitimate target for attacks, the director general of MI5 has warned."
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-24454596

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Jul 14 - 01:54 PM

"You can't *be* a radical moslem (termed here islamist) without being moslem."
Fine - in which case the current cases of clerical abuse must be implicated with being a Christian - not individual examples, but a decades old practice.
The religion - culture - nationality of criminals has nothing to do with their crimes, until such time it is established otherwise
So far it has not been.
On the other hand, oil wars and illegal invasions can be linked directly to belonging to an oil hungry and dependent nation
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Mrrzy
Date: 07 Jul 14 - 02:05 PM

The priest-child-abuse thing is more than "associated with" being christian, it's a christian priest child abuse thing. Doesn't make christians child abusers, or make them priests, although to be a priest you do have to be a christian and to be a child-abusing priest you have to be a priest. Doesn't mean christians are child abusers any more than moslems are terrorists that terrorists are moslems and priests who abuse children are christian - the latter doesn't mean christians are either priests or child abusers.   It doesn't even mean that *priests* are child abusers that child abusing priests are priests. You can't go in that direction. That's what I'm saying. But you can't divorce the two just because inclusion is one-way either, there is that inclusion you have to allow for. Not to end too many sentences with prepositions.

But this thread has morphed into a version of the Islamic Radicalism thread and I'd really, really like to get back to the question of the Caliphate. If people followed them, would that make them legit?

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 07 Jul 14 - 02:12 PM

MI5's chief said "thousands of Islamist extremists in the UK;" What are the safeguards? How were they identified? Can they be deported?

Parker said "the most direct and immediate threats to the UK" are Al Quaeda and its affiliates in Pakistan and Yemen.

Will extremist elements in the UK and other western countries recognize ISIL as a leader, or remain apart from the "caliphate?"
I think they will ignore the "caliph."

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: bobad
Date: 07 Jul 14 - 02:21 PM

"If people followed them, would that make them legit?"

I guess that would depend on the number of people following them. As it stands the "Caliphate" is being derided by many Muslims so time will tell. Azzam Tamimi, an academic who writes on Islamic movements, says that it is unlikely anyone except "some frustrated youth" would be receptive to Baghdadi's declaration.

"Such fanatic and desperate movements emerge usually in response to a profound crisis. Yet, their demise is usually rapid because of their tendency to be nihilistic," Tamimi said. They "fail miserably when it comes to winning over the normal and decent".

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Ed T
Date: 07 Jul 14 - 02:25 PM

Not sure what the standard for "legit" would be?

However, most governments are seen as the governing body after awhile if they establish a working government to run the cohntry, regardless of how they acquired power and if they are democratic, or a military or religious-run government or not-look at Iran, for example.

If a new power piss people off, nationalize resources, and fail to play ball with other countries, it is often a rougher ride to be seen as legitimate by other nations. Take what we now see as China, for example. Cuba, which has a similar givernment to China) is an odd example, which is pretty much recognized as legit, except by the US of A. The PLO had an observer seat at the United Nations before they really ran a government. (Oddly enough, the Holy Sea has permanent observer status at the United Nations).

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 07 Jul 14 - 02:52 PM

That is not a complete list of terrorist "wars".

Here are a couple of others.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 07 Jul 14 - 02:59 PM

Hmm, what happened there?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Algerian_War

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malayan_Emergency

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberation_Tigers_of_Tamil_Eelam

Even if you support the "freedom fighters" they all attacked civilian targets at least as much as military ones.

Even the first victim of the Mau Mau was a non-combatant woman.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Jul 14 - 03:20 PM

"Doesn't mean christians are child abusers any more than moslems are terrorists"
Drink to that a hundred times over - whoops - I already have done.
"Thousands of Islamist extremists in the UK see the British public as a legitimate target for attacks"
MI5 holds information on and considers security risks: those of us who took to the streets protesting about Vietnam, or Chile, or the Greek coup, or protests about the illegal Iraq invasion, or the Poll Tax protests, or those of us who supported the miners strike .... you may go back at least as far as The Russian Revolution and The Spanish Civil War to find a long list of enemies of the state.
Their suspects have included Trades Union leaders, politicians, cabinet ministers, even Prime Ministers....
Anybody vaguely to the left of Attila the Hun is considered a security risk by them - it is part of their job description to regard any challenge to the status-quo as 'a threat' - no doubt more than one Mudcatter appears on their long list of 'risks'
If there is a risk from returning fighters, then we have to know what that risk is and how it should be dealt with - little response on that score from our usual suspects.
The alternative is, as they have persistently done, pointed the finger at the entire culture.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: bobad
Date: 07 Jul 14 - 07:49 PM

A Twitter post Thursday by supporters of the Islamic State of Iraq and Syria (ISIS), now calling itself the Islamic State (IS), has promised a Holocaust against the Jews.

"The Real Zionist Holocaust is Predicted in the Hadiths! The Hour [resurrection] will not take place until the Muslims fight the Jews and the Muslims kill them, and the tree will say: "Oh, Muslim, servant of God, there is a Jew behind me, kill him! THE PROMISED Holocaust," the terrorist group's Islamic State Media a graphic posted on its @ISIS_Conquests's Twitter account said.

This hadith has proven popular with Islamic extremists of all stripes, ranging from IS to Hamas – and even on television in the Middle East.

Daniel Pipes, an expert on jihadism, said the hadith likely was a recruitment tool.

"​Yes, ​calling for a holocaust against Jews refers to a violently anti-Semitic strain among jihadis and will surely appeal to some of them," Pipes said in an email to the Investigative Project on Terrorism.

Anti-Semitic propaganda has played an important role in the terrorist group's recruitment effort. Its leader, Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi, placed Jews on the side of evil in a speech posted Tuesday on the Internet in which he called on Muslims to join him.

"O ummah of Islam, the world today has been divided into two camps and two trenches … The camp of Islam and faith, and the camp of kufr (disbelief) and hypocrisy … all being led by America and Russia, and being mobilized by the Jews," al-Baghdadi said.

In another such video released on Twitter, IS told jihadists to "Break the crosses and destroy the lin­eage of the grand­sons of mon­keys."

Some jihadist supporters are calling on the group to open a new front against Israel.

"@ISIS_Conquests Hey #ISIS please do us all a favour & open up a front against Israel. Surely they are the greatest enemy of humanity?" Akhmet Qassam, a supporter from Scotland, asked the group on Sunday. "@ISIS_Conquests If you open up a front against #Israel I'm sure your numbers will increase hugely. Also give you some legitimacy."

At the same time, IS may be growing cautious about drawing unwanted attention from Western intelligence and law-enforcement agencies even as it seeks new recruits.

"All Brothers and Sisters...Don't meet with IS members while you're living in the West...Move out of the West & than (sic) you get in touch with IS," @Dawla_Newsmedia wrote a day after U.S. law enforcement caught Shannon Maureen Conley, a 19-year-old woman from Denver, trying to leave the U.S. to join the IS.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: GUEST,keith A at Lochearnhead
Date: 08 Jul 14 - 05:45 AM

Anybody vaguely to the left of Attila the Hun is considered a security risk by them

"Thousands of Islamist extremists in the UK see the British public as a legitimate target for attacks, the director general of MI5 has warned."

Not quite the same.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 08 Jul 14 - 06:06 AM

Alarmist nonsense. Extrapolation of statistics.

Thousands of UKIP, BNP and English Defense League see British Muslims as legitimate targets too, but why don't you point that out Keith?

I wonder...

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 08 Jul 14 - 06:17 AM

"Alarmist nonsense" eh?

Said it before; shall probably say it again --

If you are not alarmed, that is because you are a

hidebound doctrinaire self-satisfied head-in-sand mind-made-up-so-no-facts-please

½·wit.


~M~

Oh shut-the-hell up, Michael. What's the bloody use!