BS: Blair the hypocrite

Subject: RE: BS: Blair the hypocrite
From: GUEST,282RA
Date: 03 Apr 07 - 06:18 PM

>>Guest 282RA, how you can say you don't mind if these young men "stay in Iran and rot" is beyond me and I'm sure beyond most civilised, ordinary human beings.<<

If Britain is going to assist the US in this mad scheme the run the world then Iran can keep them. I really don't care abou them. I was a sailor and I did time in the Middle East. It's something you have to take into account before you join. It's like being cop--don't become a cop and cry about being shot at by criminals. It comes with the territory. When you join the service, you join with the knoweldge that you are willing to carry out whatever your govt wants you to and that you might get killed or captured in the process and if you do--tough cookies. That's not me talking either--that is the military itself. These people knew the score when they joined and if they didn't they're stupid but at least they kow the score now. And, don't worry, they'll be released. I don't know when but they'll eventually come home.

>>I've read your postings, you make very good points and yes, Brits are absolutely not blameless but I really think you should kerb some of your tasteless view points - and perhaps your language?<<

I will do neither because I am pissed off. My America has turned into something I don't recognize. This new America has become the very type of nation I was taught as a boy to hate. And I do hate such nations and now I am forced to hate the one I live in and in which I defended and protected with my life for 6 years. Now, I wonder why I bothered. I didn't give 6 years of my life to defend THIS!

Subject: RE: BS: Blair the hypocrite
From: Maxine
Date: 03 Apr 07 - 05:45 PM

I have read this debate with great interest. I don't pretend to know very much about Middle Eastern conflicts, however, I know that they are very real and obviously stir huge emotions amongst us all.

As an English woman, a mother of a son the same age as many of these sailors, I just want these young men brought home to their families safely. They are our young men and regardless of what people may feel about Bush/Blair, these men enlisted in the British military services because they felt it the right thing to do and we should be praying for their safe return because they are human beings, with families and have the same hopes and dreams for their lives that anyone would have.

Guest 282RA, how you can say you don't mind if these young men "stay in Iran and rot" is beyond me and I'm sure beyond most civilised, ordinary human beings. I've read your postings, you make very good points and yes, Brits are absolutely not blameless but I really think you should kerb some of your tasteless view points - and perhaps your language?

Subject: RE: BS: Blair the hypocrite
From: GUEST,282RA
Date: 03 Apr 07 - 05:41 PM

Iran has a bigger population than Iraq, way more land area, much harsher terrain (if you can believe that), a bigger and much better organized military.

If we couldn't beat Iraq when we were at full strength, we are NOT going to beat Iran with a miltary this exhausted. And Iran knows it all too well. Britain won't make war on Iran because Britain apparently can't do anything without the US to hold its little hand and the US is not going to go to war with Iran because it can't.

Finally, Ahmadinejad was democratically elected and we cannot topple him and maintain the facade that we give a shit about spreading democracy in the Middle East.

Britain has no choice--apologize, get your people back and LEAVE! Go! Get out while the getting's good! Stop supporting US imperialism--we're crazy, we're nuts! Stay away from us, it's the best thing Britain can do for itself. For god's sake--LEAVE!!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Blair the hypocrite
From: dianavan
Date: 03 Apr 07 - 05:03 PM

On their borders?

All alone?

Subject: RE: BS: Blair the hypocrite
From: GUEST,meself
Date: 03 Apr 07 - 03:11 PM

"I'd like to see Britain survive that kind of pressure on their country."

If there's one thing Britain has shown, it is that it can withstand considerable pressure of the military type.

Subject: RE: BS: Blair the hypocrite
From: Blindlemonsteve
Date: 03 Apr 07 - 03:01 PM

If i were in a position of power, we would never have been in Iraq in the first place. Seems i´m never going to get my point across, so i´m going to sit back and listen to you all chew the fat,Dianavan and 282r, thankyou for the last few days, its been thought provoking, i´ll catch up with you other threads, i´m sure we can cross swords again. i kind of get the feeling that were never going to agree on many things, but lets not let that get in the way of a good debate.....


Remember,,,, just because i dont agree with what you say, it doesnt mean i wouldnt fight to the death to defend your right to say it.

Cheers
see ya all soon

Subject: RE: BS: Blair the hypocrite
From: dianavan
Date: 03 Apr 07 - 01:07 PM

2A2RA - You forgot one:

Blindlemonsteve said: "The Iranians are showing themselves up for what they are 2nd rate military..."

Thats a laugh. Tell that to Iraq when Saddam (backed by the U.S.) decided to go to war with Iran. Tell that to the British soldiers who were abducted by Iranian soldiers in a couple of small boats when the Cornwall and a British helicopter were nearby.

Maybe you think they're second rate because they haven't invaded another country in recent history. Maybe its because they have only defended themselves against aggression. Maybe you think they're second rate because they don't have nuclear weapons.

Considering that Iran doesn't have nuclear weapons, I think Iran still has a military not to be messed with. For Iran to maintain control of their oil fields while surrounded by U.S./British forces on one side in Iraq, NATO forces in Afghanistan on the other, and Arabs all around, they're pretty amazing - never mind Russia bearing down on them in the past. I'd like to see Britain survive that kind of pressure on their country.

Its a good thing you're not in a position of power. By thinking that Iran has a 2nd rate military, you could get your country in alot of trouble. Anyone who thinks an invasion of Iran would be a piece of cake, should think again.

Subject: RE: BS: Blair the hypocrite
From: GUEST,282RA
Date: 03 Apr 07 - 12:29 PM

>>282r
I have to challenge you, Great Britain is not at War with Iran,,,,,,<<

It would not appear that Iran agrees, does it?

>>there has been no declaration of war on either side...that said, these HOSTAGES that have been taken are Not P.O.W,s.<<

There was no declaration of war when Britain and the US invaded Iraq either and yet there we are and with our secret little prisons bursting with POWs.

>>Yes Iran hates us for many reasons, yes we are in theyre part of the world, yes, if the Iranians military were in the English channel, i would expect them to be picked up and questioned,,,,,,, but i wouldnt expect them to be paraded around like trophies, i would expect them to be released within 24 hours,,,, <<

At least by being paraded around you know they're alive and you know they're not being mistreated. The sad truth is, oh-so villainous Iran is treating those people far, far better than the US and Britain has treated Muslims and Arabs they've captured. Those sailors were even allowed to write home. How many captured Muslims were given that courtesy? While many captured Muslims have been returned to their families, a great many have not and their only crime was to be a male of recruitable age in an area thought to be high in ruitment.

>>western military personell in Berlin were routinely picked up when in East Berlin or too near to the wall, and questioned by the East german authorities, they were never held longer than 24 hours,<<

Did you invade Germany? No. Did you threaten Germany's neighbors? No. It's a totally different situation. If I were leader of Iran, it would be my duty to defend my nation and people from invasion or attack by outsiders. Iran was right to do what they did and if Britain doesn't like it, shut up and go home. Oh, and by the way, you're never going to get those people back as long as Bush keeps running his fat, fithy sewer. But, as usual, you dumb fucking Brits don't have the balls to tell him to shut up and so you deserve everything that's happening to you and I find it all highly amusing. No sympathy whatsoever. You don't deserve it. You're imperialists finally getting what you have coming. So cry me a river, I'll just go fishing in it.

>>there are procedures in these circumstances that should be followed, I am sorry,but Iran is in the Wrong.<<

Oh, like the time some British soldiers got themselves arrested by local Iraqis and the British army sent a tank over to knock the fucking down? That kind of respect of protocol and procedure? Sorry, but those sailors can stay in Iran and rot for all I care.

Subject: RE: BS: Blair the hypocrite
From: Blindlemonsteve
Date: 03 Apr 07 - 09:30 AM

282r
I have to challenge you, Great Britain is not at War with Iran,,,,,, there has been no declaration of war on either side...that said, these HOSTAGES that have been taken are Not P.O.W,s.


Yes Iran hates us for many reasons, yes we are in theyre part of the world, yes, if the Iranians military were in the English channel, i would expect them to be picked up and questioned,,,,,,, but i wouldnt expect them to be paraded around like trophies, i would expect them to be released within 24 hours,,,, western military personell in Berlin were routinely picked up when in East Berlin or too near to the wall, and questioned by the East german authorities, they were never held longer than 24 hours, there are procedures in these circumstances that should be followed, I am sorry,but Iran is in the Wrong.

My argument isnt about how Britain came to be there, how prisoners are treated in Guantanimo, Abhu Grahib etc, or even what happened under the British Empire, its straight down the line.......they should not still be incarcerated by the Iranians..... The Iranians are showing themselves up for what they are 2nd rate military, run by 3rd rate government. Its nothing personal, if they were Dutch soldiers i would have the same argument.

Subject: RE: BS: Blair the hypocrite
From: 282RA
Date: 02 Apr 07 - 09:32 PM

I don't know. How would I know? Someone here said they were and i say it makes no difference. Even if they were, so what? We're still in their area of the world and we're threatening them. Flat out, Iran has done absolutely nothing wrong. They've nothing I wouldn't do, they've done nothing Britain wouldn't do, nothing the US wouldn't under the same circumstances. In the end, we are the aggressor not them and the aggressor is always wrong.

Subject: RE: BS: Blair the hypocrite
From: GUEST,282URA Wayne Kerr
Date: 02 Apr 07 - 09:10 PM

So you agree that they were in international waters?

Subject: RE: BS: Blair the hypocrite
From: 282RA
Date: 02 Apr 07 - 08:30 PM

>>OOh 282ra, my my you are upset, Can you not see that i am not defending my countries involvement in the war, but merely pointing out that as a country the U.K has no conflict with the country of Iran.... yes they dont like us, yes my country has a history of colonialism barbarity etc etc, but we are not at war with Iran,<<

Once again, open your damn eyes! Of course, you're at war with them. They wouldn't have taken those sailors hostage if they thought Britain was anyone they could or should trust. Britain is right alongaise America licking its butt so why should Iran trust them?

As for this amazingly specious argument that Britain wasn't in Iranian waters ask yourself how Britain would react if a Syria-Iran coalition invaded Scotland, threatened England and then started massing on the approaches of its territorial waters--even if they weren't in its territorial waters. I do not believe for a second that Britain would be stupid enough to ignore that or shrug and say they're in international waters so there's nothing you anyone can do about it. I don't believe that for a second. Britain would go out and do something to let Syria-Iran no that they are not going to tolerate this aggression and that they should go the fuck home where they belong. Iran may not be a beacon of righteousness and freedom but neither are we. In the end, we're just an aggressor nation threatening and bullying those that have oil under them. To hell with Britain. I can't even bring myself to respect them sinc they were stupid enough to assist this nutcase loon Bush. Just desserts, I call it.

Subject: RE: BS: Blair the hypocrite
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 02 Apr 07 - 04:56 PM

Getting by friend getting by. Never imagined you as being miserable!

Subject: RE: BS: Blair the hypocrite
From: Peace
Date: 02 Apr 07 - 03:10 PM

Miserable as always. How are you, GS?

Subject: RE: BS: Blair the hypocrite
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 02 Apr 07 - 03:06 PM

Nice to know that some people can at least use thought and assess things without the need to attack without evidence. Hi Brucie How are ya?

Subject: RE: BS: Blair the hypocrite
From: Peace
Date: 02 Apr 07 - 02:53 PM

Asking why the Brits were there is a non issue. They were and are there at the behest of both the UN and Iraq. Thinking they provoked the issue is not good thinking because it overlooks what Iran has done. The over reaction by Iranian forces is for their agenda, not Britain's. People inside the Iraq administration have said that the event was pre-planned and had been for a while. However, I'd guiess that if Bush can shut his fucking mouth, the prisoners/unwilling guests/hostages will be returned within a week. Talks seem to be moving apace.

Subject: RE: BS: Blair the hypocrite
From: Stu
Date: 02 Apr 07 - 02:45 PM

"Why did the Cornwall and the helicopter leave the British sailors so vulnerable in such disputed territory?"

There has been talk the Revolutionary Guards had this whole caper planned in advance - the number of Iranian boats that appeared indicates this might be true.

Anyhow, although the gulf is inundated with trigger-happy lunatics it seems a wise choice for the Cornwall to keep her distance and not engage the Iranians, leading to a potentially very dangerous situation. Shows a bit of intelligent thinking on behalf of the ship's Captain - at least i shows not everybody in the coalition is gripped with the American lust for gore - thank god.

Subject: RE: BS: Blair the hypocrite
From: dianavan
Date: 02 Apr 07 - 12:19 PM

stigweard - No, I do not believe Britain would "go it alone" and invade Iran. I do believe that they would try to get the U.N., the E.U. and the U.S. to fight the battle for (with) them.

Keith and Blindlemon - Iran knows that Saddam (Iraq) wanted to take that waterway. For the same reasons the U.S./Britain would want that waterway for the present day Iraq. In fact, if they are planning war with Iran, it is strategically important. Iran, on the other hand, would want to make sure that they control that waterway for defense.

Its a sensitive area. British sailors have been abducted there before. Why was Britain have to go anywhere near Iranian territory? They knew the risks. Why did the Cornwall and the helicopter leave the British sailors so vulnerable in such disputed territory?

Subject: RE: BS: Blair the hypocrite
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 02 Apr 07 - 06:36 AM

Certain people have already made their minds up and sat in judgement on both the UK and Blair....let's just see what transipres shall we?

Subject: RE: BS: Blair the hypocrite
From: Blindlemonsteve
Date: 02 Apr 07 - 05:02 AM

OOh 282ra, my my you are upset, Can you not see that i am not defending my countries involvement in the war, but merely pointing out that as a country the U.K has no conflict with the country of Iran.... yes they dont like us, yes my country has a history of colonialism barbarity etc etc, but we are not at war with Iran, they have no mandate of which to hold these personel. these are bonafide military persons, not terrorist suspects, car thiefs etc. and also Dianavan, if there is no fixed border on this waterway, does this make the taking of these hostages even more bizzare.


WHEN YOU HAVE TO RESORT TO SHOUTING AND SWEARING TO TRY TO MAKE YOUR POINT,,,,,,,,,,YOU HAVE LOST!!!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Blair the hypocrite
From: Stu
Date: 02 Apr 07 - 04:59 AM

"OK, that established, now, heres the idea, P.O.W´s, that meaning "PRISONERS OF WAR" can only be held and detained for the duration of any WAR. P.O.W´s can only be members of bonafide military organisations, otherwise they have to be tried and detained, executed, or released. It is also worth pointing out that any P.O.W held, has to be treated in accordance to the Geneva Convention, thus making it illegal to parade captured persons as some kind of trophy."

Well, you can thank the Americans for leveling what (if any) moral high ground they held before this entire farce started. It was they who designated people as 'Enemy Combatants' to circumvent the Geneva Convention and violate their human rights. They are quite happy to torture individuals in secret CIA facilities, parade them on the TV (as they did with Saddam) and hold them without trial or access to any NGO's or legal aid. Blair is party to these outrages, complicit in the US programme of detention and torture and so has no moral integrity left - this is why the Iranians can get away with kidnapping these servicemen/woman. This is why the wider Arab world supports them, and why they will not come out of this looking like the villans.

Watching B.Lair bluster and spew forth his self-righteous crap is quite pathetic, and his toady Beckett seems unable to grasp the internal schisms that rent Iranian politics - she is most probably talking to someone who doesn't even know where the hostages are being held. The old colonial power is reaping what it sowed so many years ago, as well as the rewards of a close partnership with the Empire of the USA - and it's not pretty to watch.

"The Brits created an international incident as an excuse to invade Iran"

You don't actually believe this do you Dianavan? What a laugh! What are they going to invade with, the W.I.? They don't have enough troops to fight in Afghanistan, let alone invade a country that will put up a fight.

The Loch Ness Monster, by the way, is in all probability a giant eel. This is true.

Subject: RE: BS: Blair the hypocrite
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 02 Apr 07 - 04:29 AM

Dianavan, as I have just said on the other thread, if the map is a fake, the Iranians are using the SAME fake map.
The map they show has exactly the same border shown, but with different locations marked.
The co ordinates at first given by Iran put the arrest on the Iraqi side. When that was pointed out, Iran changed their co ordinates but not the line.
Re other ships, yes other ships were checked. No claims have emerged from them of being illegally borded.
This dispute is confined to a tiny area. Even the Iranians are only claiming to have been 500 metres (600 yards) inside their line. Other ships within a few miles are of no interest.

Subject: RE: BS: Blair the hypocrite
From: dianavan
Date: 02 Apr 07 - 01:11 AM

Britain should stop playing the innocent victim. Anybody that has any sense of British history in the region knows that he has provoked this incident. Iran is very sensitive about that particular waterway and Blair knows it. British sailors were captured by in Iran in 2004 in Shaat al-arab. The British know that Saddam went to war with Iran because of that waterway.

Blair referred to a bogus map and bogus boundaries. Those boundaries do not exist! Saddam tore up the agreement that Iran and Iraq once had. There are no internationally recognized boundaries between Iran and Iraq at this time.

The Brits created an international incident as an excuse to invade Iran. Luckily the U.N. and the E.U did not fall for Tony's act. Hopefully, the world will tell Blair to admit his error and the hostages will be returned.

Subject: RE: BS: Blair the hypocrite
From: 282RA
Date: 01 Apr 07 - 10:12 PM

>>but, and this is the point, i am not aware of any conflict between the U.K and Iran. of all the unfortunate footage and pictures seen, i am not aware of any of them being of Iranian military personell. and you are right, Guantanamo bay is obviously no picnic, but i am not aware of any iranian military personell there either.<<

If that's your point, it's a mighty bad one. We are in teh Middle East invading other sovereign nations thinking we can tell them how to live, thinking we can force it on them at the point of a gun. Sorry, but Britain IS EVERY BIT AS GUILTY AS THE US AND DON'T YOU EVER FORGET IT! I'm sick to death of goddamn Britons acting like they can't understand why they're hated over there. OPEN YOUR FUCKING EYES, YOU DUMBSHITS!

Britain is neck deep in the colonalism being perpetrated in the MIddle East via lies and deception. Britain HAS NO RIGHT to think they shouldn't be as much a target as the US. Britain is 100% complicit in this pathetic imperialist farce and they'd had better start to get it!!

Seems like the whole rest of the world knows it except Britain and that is starting to get really, really OLD!!!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Blair the hypocrite
From: GUEST,Can E Ball
Date: 01 Apr 07 - 09:15 PM

The poor Iranians should eat the hostages.

Subject: RE: BS: Blair the hypocrite
From: Barry Finn
Date: 01 Apr 07 - 02:51 PM

"I guess I'm not the only one who thinks Blair is ridiculous. Instead of negotiating quietly, he has deceived the public and has chosen to portray himself as a tough guy."

Not by a long shot dianavan, though I give him much more credit than our guy Bush (doesn't say that much though). He (Bush) should not be allowed to even approch this incedient, though it may be to late, he already started to open his mouth. If Iran & England want to peacefully put this mess behind them their best bet is to ignore the US completely.
Everybody's trying to take this as a photo opp & beat their chest (I agree that you won't see a woman doing this, except maybe Thack-her) instead of trying to think it through clearly.
Establishing a definite border & a promise not to do it again would bring a welcome end to it all but it's clear that some folks don't want to swallow their own spit to spite themselves.
If that's the case I hope both will think twice after the punches start getting thrown.

At this point they both deserve each other for acting so foolish, right from the start.

Barry

Subject: RE: BS: Blair the hypocrite
From: dianavan
Date: 01 Apr 07 - 02:15 PM

I guess I'm not the only one who thinks Blair is ridiculous. Instead of negotiating quietly, he has deceived the public and has chosen to portray himself as a tough guy.

"...impossible to say where a real, negotiated or adjudicated Iran-Iraq boundary might eventually lie. It is also why the instinct of both the Foreign Office and MoD was to play this quietly and negotiate our people back.

But the No10 spin doctors stepped in, seeing a propaganda opportunity to portray Blair as fighting evil Iranians.

Navy and Foreign Office experts were horrified at the notion of publishing that map.

In doing so we entrenched Blair's ridiculous boast that our 15 Navy personnel were definitely in Iraqi territorial seas, and claimed the right to dictate Iran's boundary."

http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/news/article-23391078-details/How+I+know+Blair+faked+Iran+map/article.do

Subject: RE: BS: Blair the hypocrite
From: dianavan
Date: 01 Apr 07 - 01:43 PM

Thanks guys.

Its true I can be harsh but like I said, its only because I can't express my opinions face to face. The internet allows me to be bold. More women should take the opportunity because I find the give and take to be quite informative.

Keith - I remember hearing that the Brits had boarded other ships in the area on that day.

In any event, Blair looked anything but calm, collected and diplomatic. In fact his voice was quite shrill and was visibly distraught. That image gives the Iranians (and the rest of the world) the impression that he is out of control.

I also think that before he starts pointing the finger of outrage, he should consider his support of the U.S. who outsources and tortures their hostages - regardles of whether they are guilty or innocent.

btw - although I know the videos were staged, I couldn't help but notice that the sailors were smiling as if the whole thing was a joke. If they were being mistreated, I don't think they would be able to even fake a smile.

Subject: RE: BS: Blair the hypocrite
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 01 Apr 07 - 03:48 AM

Guest, whatever you may think of another persons posts, there is never a need to become crude or show your own character in such a foul manner. Dianavan may appear harsh or off key to you but there is no need for such a personal attack. Please try putting your point across...your opinions of what is happening around you.
Dianavan, we have the belief in the UK that a person/persons are innocent until proven guilty and I pretty much tend to go with that until all the facts are out in the open, which I agree does not always happen but your criticism of Blair and the British Government appears to me, at this point unfounded.
There seems to be a trend in modern times to strike out at polititians, particularly those in the unenviable position of being at the head of a countrys' government.......you go along with that ethos, where I tend to wait and see. Even your own President seems to get attacked if he breathes out of the wrong nostril.

Subject: RE: BS: Blair the hypocrite
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 01 Apr 07 - 03:47 AM

Dianavan,
"Has anybody ever delved into what the other merchant vessels in the vicinity may have witnessed? Haven't heard much about that have we? Why do you suppose that might be?"

Neither side has mentioned other ships.
Are they both trying to hide something?
Perhaps there were no other ships. None appears on any of the images.
One ship supporting Britain is obviously not enough to convince you.
How many would it take?
Are there enough ships in the world?

Subject: RE: BS: Blair the hypocrite
From: Blindlemonsteve
Date: 01 Apr 07 - 03:20 AM

Hey Dianavan, at last something we agree on, Guest is a gutless wonder.

Subject: RE: BS: Blair the hypocrite
From: Peace
Date: 01 Apr 07 - 03:19 AM

I made a request in the help section that the guest post be deleted. It's in the 'Porn again' thread there. Hoped that would be attended to before you saw it.

Subject: RE: BS: Blair the hypocrite
From: dianavan
Date: 01 Apr 07 - 03:16 AM

Hey, Guest - Why didn't Blair negotiate with Iran from the get-go instead of trying to get the U.N., the E.U. and the U.S. to back him up? He's not only a hypocrite but a wimp; a gutless wonder just like you.

Subject: RE: BS: Blair the hypocrite
From: dianavan
Date: 01 Apr 07 - 03:05 AM

"But Craig Murray, a former British diplomat and Foreign Office specialist on maritime affairs, said, "There is no agreed maritime boundary between Iraq and Iran in the Persian Gulf. Until the current mad propaganda exercise of the last week, nobody would have found that in the least a controversial statement."

In postings on his Web site, www.craigmurray.co.uk, Mr. Murray referred to charts shown by the Royal Navy to reinforce its argument, saying: "The Iran-Iraq maritime boundary shown on the British government map does not exist. It has been drawn up by the British government."

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/04/01/world/middleeast/01iran.html

...and now Iran has shown Britain a way out. An easy way to get the hostages back home. Lets see if Blair is bright enough to accept.

Subject: RE: BS: Blair the hypocrite
From: Peace
Date: 01 Apr 07 - 02:37 AM

"On Monday 5th March, about 100,000 teachers went on strike. On 8th March 10,000 teachers staged a picket outside the Parliament building in Tehran demanding justice and better wages.

According to the Organisation for Womens' Liberation, "all along the regime has refused to meet their demands. On 8th March (International Women's Day), many students and the women's movement showed their solidarity with the teachers. Many 8th march leaflets were distributed among the demonstrators. There were talks among the demonstrators to join the 8th March demonstration by Tehran University .

On Monday 5th March, several thousand factory workers also joined the teachers to demand their unpaid wages. Many workers' committees have issued 8th March messages to commemorate International Women's Day."

The strike is reportedly the biggest industrial dispute in Iran in recent years, with schools forced to close nationwide. Teachers said the strike had not been orchestrated by any labour organisation but had caught on by word of mouth. Labour unions are typically weak and disorganised in Iran."


And by merest chance along comes the prisoner/hostage incident. Nothin' like focusing the folks on the nasty UK marines and sailors to take their minds off a shit economy and crap work conditions. But there'd be no cause/effect there I guess. No, not likely. Naw . . . .

Subject: RE: BS: Blair the hypocrite
From: Blindlemonsteve
Date: 01 Apr 07 - 02:28 AM

Let me spell this out,,,,,there is no conflict of war between IRAN and THE UNITED KINGDOM....They might despise us, hate us for whatever reason, but we are not at war with the country of Iran.. OK, that established, now, heres the idea, P.O.W´s, that meaning "PRISONERS OF WAR" can only be held and detained for the duration of any WAR. P.O.W´s can only be members of bonafide military organisations, otherwise they have to be tried and detained, executed, or released. It is also worth pointing out that any P.O.W held, has to be treated in accordance to the Geneva Convention, thus making it illegal to parade captured persons as some kind of trophy.

Now, here is my point, because no state of war exists between Iran and the U.K, why on earth are they holding 15 sailors and Marines. they should have been questioned, IF they were in Iranian waters, but this should have taken no more than 24 hours.

But as i have said before, we wont find out for sure, because you can bet your mortgage that the Iranians wont give back the GPS equipment the have stolen, like they didnt before.

It is also worth pointing out that this episode can not be compared to Guantanamo Bay, Abhu Grahib etc etc, to do so would completely be misunderstanding the point. This is one country "Iran" showing aggresion to another "U.K".

I would also like to point out that any British detainees at Guantanamo, were removed and repatriated at the request of Mr Blair.

I dont understand the line some people take on these issues, If the U.S or the U.K do something, its all a big cover up, something sly is going on, all a bit cloak and dagger, but if those champions of human rights "Iran" do something, its oh, they are behaving within theyre rights, its just that us westerners dont understand them, and as for poor old Saddaam, well he was the salt of the earth wasnt he, just a bit misunderstood bless him.

As long as we dont have to live under these regimes, best just leave the people who do to suffer them.

Subject: RE: BS: Blair the hypocrite
From: dianavan
Date: 31 Mar 07 - 09:05 PM

What I'm saying, Georgiansilver, is that when someone is angry, you stay far away. Obviously, they were not far enough away or the abduction wouldn't have been so fast and easy. Britain was on high alert but they were still mucking about in murky waters.

Has anybody ever delved into what the other merchant vessels in the vicinity may have witnessed? Haven't heard much about that have we? Why do you suppose that might be? Its all pretty hush-hush except for the rhetoric that is obviously a build up to war.

Subject: RE: BS: Blair the hypocrite
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 31 Mar 07 - 06:14 PM

Again Dianavan you are making assumptions "Why were the Brits poking at a hornets nest when they knew that Iran was on edge?"
If, as I believe, our personnel were in Iraqui waters then Iran are in the wrong. As I asked before.."Do you know something we don't"? You obviously think they were in the wrong......Or are you just flaming for the hell of it?

Subject: RE: BS: Blair the hypocrite
From: dianavan
Date: 31 Mar 07 - 04:55 PM

Georgiansilver - Quite the contrary. You are talking like the Brits are innocent victims.

In fact, the boundaries are not clearly established and have been disputed and changed many times. Why were the Brits poking at a hornets nest when they knew that Iran was on edge? As far as rights go, Maybe this boundary dispute should be settled by Iraq and Iran. Its certainly not Britain's decision to establish the boundaries between these two countries. If there was a boundary dispute between Canada and the U.S., do you think we would let Britain determine who was right? No, we would settle it ourselves.

And yes, I think it is absolutely acceptable to apologize for confusion regarding territorial boundaries at sea under these unusual circumstances. The sooner the better.

Subject: RE: BS: Blair the hypocrite
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 31 Mar 07 - 04:34 PM

Dianavan...you state "What would I do?

Apologize to Iran for confusion over territorial boundaries and request a meeting to clearly establish the boundaries so that it wouldn't happen again. The hostages would then be returned".

Do you not think it simplistic that "an apology" would suffice when the boundary firstly was not crossed and those personnel were taken hostage! There is a hidden agenda here and all will surely be revealed at some jucture.
Clearly established boundaries are already there and Iran broke them to take the hostages.....what would the US do? what Dianavan would you do in reality if your rights were infringed upon. You are talking as if Iran are in the right!!! do you know something we all apparently don't?

Subject: RE: BS: Blair the hypocrite
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 31 Mar 07 - 03:13 PM

No it weelittle drummer is a reference to song called Arthur McBride - made listenable by the genius of Paul Brady.

Went to school and college with a lot of kids from Iran - I can assure you. You've got that one wrong. They were really into the English thing - cricket, football, groovy fashions. They're actually a very nice people. Polite, civilised, fun.....

Don't believe all the crap you read.

Subject: RE: BS: Blair the hypocrite
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 31 Mar 07 - 02:43 PM

Read this and you may understand the basis of the antipathy towards Britain and the USA in Iran. Once again we were meddling in the affairs of another country instead of running our own properly.
Giok

Subject: RE: BS: Blair the hypocrite
From: dianavan
Date: 31 Mar 07 - 02:25 PM

Blindlemonsteve - "there is no conflict between Iran and The United Kingdom"

That is a joke. The Iranians practically have a tradition of hating Britain. They have had years and years to blame the Brits (whether it is justified or not) for just about anything and they do. Ask an Iranian. They despise Britain. They actually like the U.S. more than Britain. Britain is the age old enemy.

Regarding the treatment of hostages: Has Blair ever condemned the U.S. for the outsourcing and torture of hostages? Whether or not they are soldiers or 'terrorists' make no difference. Human rights are human rights.

What would I do?

Apologize to Iran for confusion over territorial boundaries and request a meeting to clearly establish the boundaries so that it wouldn't happen again. The hostages would then be returned.

weelittledrummer - Are you a drummer with a weelittle one?

Subject: RE: BS: Blair the hypocrite
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 31 Mar 07 - 10:03 AM

Well yeh Richard - all fair points. But you've got to admit Blair is a shifty customer. You can't be too sure of anything.

Subject: RE: BS: Blair the hypocrite
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 31 Mar 07 - 09:31 AM

BTW, DV, show me a prisoner, any prisoner, in the UK (you deal with the USA, the UK never agreed to the US holding UK people in the USA's torture camp in Guantanamo Bay) being tortured so sign false confessions and paraded on TV.

It gets clearer by the minute that the UK personnel were not in Iranian water, and that the Iranians were on an illegal snatch mission. There was a nutty professor of "political geography" (funny, I didn't know mountains could vote) from Tehran the other night who said that the first location the Iranians gave (the one that put the UK personnel nearly 2 miles outside Iranian waters) was at the margin of error in one direction and the later one that put them 2 miles inside Iranian waters (after the Iranians changed thier mind) was at the other margin.

A 4 mile margin of error on Sat-nav positioning? I don't think so.

And ask yourself where the Iranian pictures of the moments so soon after the seizure came from. Do the Iranian military intercept boats carry TV cameras? Er- perhaps this was a staged stunt by the Iranians...

I have agreed with you about the plight of the oppressed in the past, but this particular episode has only one right and only one wrong side.

Subject: RE: BS: Blair the hypocrite
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 31 Mar 07 - 09:11 AM

are you called that, because your name's Diana and you've got a van?

Subject: RE: BS: Blair the hypocrite
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 31 Mar 07 - 06:31 AM

I believe given the circumstances of the 'hostage taking' which was most certainly unnecessary and provocative, that Tony Blair and the Government advisors, have taken the only route so far that would be sensible. However, I am prepared to listen to what DIANAVAN would do under exactly the same circumstances which would not cause dissent somewhere along the line.
Over to you Dianavan.

Subject: RE: BS: Blair the hypocrite
From: Teribus
Date: 31 Mar 07 - 05:49 AM

Dianavan theoretically there is nothing whatsoever to stop Iran backing out of the nuclear NPT. There exists clearly laid out procedures detailing exactly how that could be accomplished. Unfortunately for Iran however, while there are detailed steps for them to follow, there are also detailed steps for others to follow, which if complied with would stop Iran's nuclear ambitions in their tracks.

Subject: RE: BS: Blair the hypocrite
From: Peace
Date: 31 Mar 07 - 05:11 AM

It has already backfired on Iran. Their equivocation about the release of Faye Turney has hurt then not only with the international community--and although some might say Iran cares only for the good-will of its Middle East neighbours, they cannot really afford to be isolationist--but also with its own people, many of whom have said that it was wrong.

There seems to be a three-way power struggle IN Iran: Revolutionary Guard, clerics and Ahmadinejad. Ahmadinejad has been criticized lately for his trips abroad, and Iran's weakening economy--not due really to lack of money, but due to poor administration OF that money--has caused a growing unrest amongst the Iranian people. I guess ya can't spend all that money on nuclear production, have nothing to show for it, and be able to tell Iranians that you're doing something good for them. Tough tightrope to walk.

Subject: RE: BS: Blair the hypocrite
From: Blindlemonsteve
Date: 31 Mar 07 - 05:05 AM

"How does the U.S. and Britain treat hostages compared to how Iran is treating these hostages?"


The U.K and the U.S do not take hostages, they are holding terrorist suspects, for one purpose and one purpose only, to try to reduce the terrorist threat in the future, i myself find this whole episode unpalletable, in our democratic societies, a man can be held indefinitely without trial. you are right, this is wrong, but, they are not hostages, also, they are not members of any bonafide military organisation, do you really think the U.S and the U.K would hold Iranian soldiers in the same manner as the Iranians have, i think not, even if we were at war with Iran.

We are not at war with Iran,,,,, yes they are part of the middle east, yes there are problems with our relationship,,, but we are not at war with them, they have no business holding those sailors and marines,other than a brief questioning about what they were doing, even though they were 1.7.nautical miles inside Iraqi waters. And you can bet your bottom dollar the GPS equipment will confirm this, thats why they wont get it back.
They have no business parading them like they are P.O.W´s they are not.

For the most part, the U:S and the U.K forces in Iraq are doing an excellent job, in very hard circumstances, there are always a few bad apples in a barrel. This line about how Iraqi prisoners have been abused etc etc, has been blown out of all proportion. These incidents were not tolerated by the higher command of the perpetrators, and they have been where possible bought to justice.

Dont let a few idiots allow your judgement to become clouded,99.9% of our troops are acting in Iraq, with the greatest integrity, they are professional soldiers, not press ganged bandits like the Iranians seem to be.