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BS: Why should anyone believe in 'God'?
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Subject: BS: Why should anyone believe in 'God'? From: Ed. Date: 17 Apr 07 - 05:18 PM Without doubt, many will see the title of my thread as being provocative. It wasn't meant to sound like that... I would, however, be interested in anyone who can tell me why I should trust some being that isn't easily explainable by the normal laws of physics as we currently understand them. Any takers? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why should anyone believe in 'God'? From: beardedbruce Date: 17 Apr 07 - 05:25 PM already a thread: thread.cfm?threadid=100409&messages=353 |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why should anyone believe in 'God'? From: Bill D Date: 17 Apr 07 - 05:26 PM yes....we just did that in tedious detail |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why should anyone believe in 'God'? From: wysiwyg Date: 17 Apr 07 - 05:27 PM Ed, I believe that there are no "shoulds" in the universe-- only choices, for which we are responsible, and many of which we fail to see clearly (if at all) due to the unhealed effects of past distress experiences. Seen, or unseen, the choices are still there. (One of those choices is whether to seek healing for the barriers that limit our view.) ~Susan |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why should anyone believe in 'God'? From: Wesley S Date: 17 Apr 07 - 05:27 PM "Without doubt, many will see the title of my thread as being provocative." Naaaaa - not us Mudcatters. No way. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why should anyone believe in 'God'? From: akenaton Date: 17 Apr 07 - 05:32 PM Quite so. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why should anyone believe in 'God'? From: Sttaw Legend Date: 17 Apr 07 - 05:33 PM Because.. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why should anyone believe in 'God'? From: skipy Date: 17 Apr 07 - 05:36 PM Stayed out of the last one, can't be bothered with this one! Let everyone believe what they want to believe! Skipy. Oh! & respect their right to do so - unless they force it upon you! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why should anyone believe in 'God'? From: Amos Date: 17 Apr 07 - 05:38 PM There's only one answer, Ed -- choose to. Or don't. It is all the flaming same to me and, I would guess, to God. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why should anyone believe in 'God'? From: Captain Ginger Date: 17 Apr 07 - 05:40 PM Because we all like to have an imaginary friend? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why should anyone believe in 'God'? From: Stringsinger Date: 17 Apr 07 - 05:41 PM Ed, this issue has come up a couple of times on Mudcat. There can be no definitive answer since there is no common ground semantically to discuss it. I agree with you. But when you talk about any kind of religious or metaphysical philosophical experience there is nothing to get a handle on. Everyone's definition is relegated to their personal experience or point of view and all objective criteria is out the window. I believe that religion should be subjected to the rigors of scientific method but that doesn't set well with some here. Hence, no intelligent conversation can ensue. It remains a matter of opinion. Frank Hamilton |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why should anyone believe in 'God'? From: Wesley S Date: 17 Apr 07 - 05:52 PM I really don't care if someone decides to believe - or not believe. It's a very personal decision that everyone should make for themselves. What I do object to is that if I DO choose to believe in a higher power that that there will always be someone here who decides that I am no longer engaging in intelligent conversation. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why should anyone believe in 'God'? From: Jean(eanjay) Date: 17 Apr 07 - 05:53 PM Everybody's idea of God is different and perhaps if you think of a Higher Being instead you may be more able to trust that being. I have a book called "Every Day a Better Way". It gives a quote and more for each day of the year. It was written, I think, to help people cope with loved ones who have addiction problems and the idea is that you hand the care of that person to a Higher Being. It's one way of coping with it all and standing back from the situation. For many people that Higher Being will be God but for others it won't be. If you are handing the care of a loved one to a Higher Being obviously you would trust that being. It doesn't answer your question, I know that. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why should anyone believe in 'God'? From: Ebbie Date: 17 Apr 07 - 05:58 PM "some being that isn't easily explainable by the normal laws of physics as we currently understand them." Ed If we could "easily explain by the normal laws of physics as we currently understand them", it wouldn't be God, now would it? Goldfish in a bowl probably don't have a lot of insight into their human keepers either. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why should anyone believe in 'God'? From: skipy Date: 17 Apr 07 - 06:36 PM There is no "God" there never has been & there never will be, but let those who want to believe there is believe so. However, they tend to start wars, or blow up buildings, aircraft etc. etc. More events in support of "God" to come! Skipy |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why should anyone believe in 'God'? From: Riginslinger Date: 17 Apr 07 - 07:40 PM Crooks like to believe in goD. That way they can screw you to death on Friday, roll around on the floor of the church on Sunday, and they're all ready to go out and screw somebody else by the following Monday. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why should anyone believe in 'God'? From: Ebbie Date: 17 Apr 07 - 07:45 PM Ah. I see. You have faith that there is no god. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why should anyone believe in 'God'? From: Peace Date: 17 Apr 07 - 07:47 PM "Why should anyone believe in 'God'?" Because one chooses to. Explanation beyond that is not necessary, IMO. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why should anyone believe in 'God'? From: Little Hawk Date: 17 Apr 07 - 07:52 PM I guess it all depends on what you think they mean when they say the word "God", Ed... But everyone's free to believe whatever they have faith in, whether it be a deity, an ideal, "luck", "instinct", intuition, a philosophy, a political theory, a scientific hypothesis (that is not yet proven), a set of social customs, or any of the other complex stuff we humans have made up over the last few thousands years in order to give our lives a sense of structure and purpose. Some people hate other people's choices of belief for some reason, and they just can't leave them alone about it. That can be troublesome...regardless of which side of the issue you happen to be on. I have no particular motivation to try to convince you "why you should trust some being that isn't easily explainable by the normal laws of physics as we currently understand them". For that, I suggest you look up a Jehovah's Witness, a Baptist, a Mormon, a Muslim, a Catholic or somebody else like that who thinks their duty is to convert you or "save" you. ;-) I don't feel I'm under any obligation to do that. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why should anyone believe in 'God'? From: Amos Date: 17 Apr 07 - 08:08 PM I think if you have no clear positive bent to acknowledge any such existence, you would be far better off believing in your own unlimited Selfhood, the highest and the best of yourself you have ever felt--the Self that is the center of all your perception and your truest viewpoint. Can't go wrong with that. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why should anyone believe in 'God'? From: michaelr Date: 17 Apr 07 - 08:15 PM Thou art God! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why should anyone believe in 'God'? From: Little Hawk Date: 17 Apr 07 - 08:15 PM Sounds like a very good idea to me, Amos. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why should anyone believe in 'God'? From: Bee-dubya-ell Date: 17 Apr 07 - 10:51 PM Belief in God is not a proposition to which the word "why" can legitimately be applied. By definition, God is limitless. The very act of attempting to explain why one should believe in God treats God as something which can be defined in human terms. But anything that can be defined in human terms is not limitless and, therefore, not God. So, the best someone who attempts to answer that question can do is tell you why you should believe in something that, while it may have some God-like attributes, isn't really God at all. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why should anyone believe in 'God'? From: Mrrzy Date: 17 Apr 07 - 11:42 PM Maybe this thread can morph into What is God To You? I've been wondering that... There seems to be the following main schools of thought: 1) God/Godess is a single entity 2) God/Godess is a unifying force 3) God/Godess is everything 4) There are many gods and/or godesses, depending on what you talk about (but these tend to be either entities, forces, or all-encompassing in some dimension or other) 5) There is no God AKA there are no gods Is that a fair breakdown? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why should anyone believe in 'God'? From: Peace Date: 17 Apr 07 - 11:52 PM Humans can't envision peace enough to make it happen. What makes anyone think we should be able to envision God? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why should anyone believe in 'God'? From: Bert Date: 18 Apr 07 - 12:07 AM "IF" there is a God He/She will be instantiated in the form of WYSIWYG and Hardiman. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why should anyone believe in 'God'? From: patriot1314 Date: 18 Apr 07 - 12:15 AM A quote from "Viz" comic.... A woman on the news was being interviewed on the condition of her daughter after suffering terrible injuries during a tornado....."I know that God will make her better".....presumably a different God from the one that nearly killed her with the tornado!!! Myself, I'm an athiest but it can be a lonely life.......for example there's nobody to talk to during orgasm! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why should anyone believe in 'God'? From: Peace Date: 18 Apr 07 - 03:05 AM Assuming there's someone else with you, why not that person? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why should anyone believe in 'God'? From: Slag Date: 18 Apr 07 - 03:31 AM "Blow up your TV Move to the country Try to find Jesus All on your own!" With sincere apologies to the late John Denver. Hi gang! Should I? OK, not this time. "Many are called but few are chosen." |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why should anyone believe in 'God'? From: Georgiansilver Date: 18 Apr 07 - 03:39 AM I personally believe Holman Hunt captured the essence of beginning to understand Christianity in his painting 'The Light of the World' where Jesus knocks on your door...which has no handle on the outside..thus you have to let him in.... food for thought but everyone rightly has their choices to make in life......... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why should anyone believe in 'God'? From: Joe Offer Date: 18 Apr 07 - 03:49 AM Why should anyone believe in a God?
But I don't think anybody should believe in God, or in a god. If belief makes sense, believe. If it doesn't, don't. I do, but that's a choice I made. Make the choice that's right for you, but please allow me the freedom of making my own choice without your condemnation. Faith works for me. If it doesn't work for you, that's OK by me. Part of my faith requires me to tolerate and respect and learn from what you believe - or don't believe. Some types of faith draw people to openness and exploration. Other types of faith lead people to rigidity and self-protection. -Joe- |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why should anyone believe in 'God'? From: Slag Date: 18 Apr 07 - 03:55 AM Nice to see your post Joe. No time now but I may be back! Thanks! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why should anyone believe in 'God'? From: *daylia* Date: 18 Apr 07 - 08:29 AM LH, I've known a lot of Catholics in my life (including my own family) but I've never come across one yet who wanted to convert anyone. OR even thought about converting anyone! With a few billion Catholics on the planet today, they're not starving for company by any means. Maybe you're thinking of days gone by, when it was common to see entire populations converted and/or wiped out, with the blessings of 'Mother Church'? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why should anyone believe in 'God'? From: Donuel Date: 18 Apr 07 - 11:39 AM god implies instant authority. Thats why there will always be someone who will claim that god told him who to elect, who to appoint and who to obey. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why should anyone believe in 'God'? From: Bill D Date: 18 Apr 07 - 12:14 PM "God"...that supernatural force mentioned when there is a horrible tragedy, like a plane crash that kills 287, but one person miraculously emerges unharmed, saying "God was with me". who, me? Cynical?....nawwww.... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why should anyone believe in 'God'? From: Little Hawk Date: 18 Apr 07 - 12:41 PM Yes, I was mainly thinking of "days gone by" when it came to the Catholic in my example, Daylia. Bill - You seem to assume that dying is "a bad thing". Maybe not. Everyone dies eventually, right? Dying in a plane crash could be just the perfect way to go if that was a person's destiny....it could be a whole lot better than slowly dying of cancer for 6 months in a hospital bed, for example. (as just as one possibility) If there is a continuance of existence as a living soul after what we call "death", and you are just 100% fine afterward, then God could be just as much with the people who died in the plane crash as with the one guy who miraculously survived. The one guy who survived could have had a life purpose which required him to survive. Thus, they ALL could legitimately say "God was with me." ;-) (Only you don't get to hear anyone say it except the one guy who survived, because YOU are still in a body, like him.) God, by definition being limitless, HAS to be with all of them, Bill. That's all just theory of course, but see how it all depends which theory fits your pre-supposed notion ("There is a God."..."There is no God.")? People normally posit theories that support their inherent assumptions. This is their way of being "logical". Logic can support any number of varing theories about something. The only logic that is flawless is the logic that is backed up by complete knowledge of the subject being discussed. Does any of us have complete knowledge? I think not. Mrrzy - Your summary is a good one, I think. As you proposed: "There seem to be the following main schools of thought: 1) God/Godess is a single entity 2) God/Godess is a unifying force 3) God/Godess is everything 4) There are many gods and/or godesses, depending on what you talk about (but these tend to be either entities, forces, or all-encompassing in some dimension or other) 5) There is no God AKA there are no gods" Yes. Of those, I would say I tend to believe #2 and #3 most of all. I also, in a sense, believe #1....but I think that that "single entity" comprises absolutely everything. In other words, I don't think it's an entity which is separate from any of us. I think we are all parts of it, just like cells in a body are parts of that body. I also sort of believe #4...but only in this sense: people have a way of perceiving the many, many aspects or characteristics of the entire Godhead in the form of a multitude of individual gods and goddesses. Those aspects, in themselves, are real...as far as they go...but they are not the whole story. They are facets of the diamond. You can deal with a particular aspect of the entire God if you want to...just like you can deal with one part of a University course rather that the whole course...or one part of a car rather than the whole car. In doing so, you will sense that you are dealing with a god, a goddess, or some sort of sacred power like that...and you may visualize it in some form or another. The only possibility you put forward that I give no validity to whatsoever is #5. Donuel - God only implies instant authority to those who think of God in that fashion. I don't. I think we have free will at all times. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why should anyone believe in 'God'? From: Amos Date: 18 Apr 07 - 12:54 PM That's just cultural superstition you are batting at, Bill D; not really the core concept at all. Mass hypnosis is an easy target. I take potshots at it all the time! D A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why should anyone believe in 'God'? From: Donuel Date: 18 Apr 07 - 01:00 PM To indoctrinate and inculcate religio-political extremeism in 4 to 14 year olds, send your kids to Jesus Camp. I just viewed the film/DVD Jesus Camp. Its a must see for those who believe that equal freedom is wrong. Its a must see for those who believe that equal freedom is right. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why should anyone believe in 'God'? From: Bill D Date: 18 Apr 07 - 01:04 PM "God, by definition being limitless..." that definition is trivial. It tells you nothing, and it is a HUMAN definition. "Bill - You seem to assume that dying is "a bad thing". ?? Me? I made no particular assumptions. If you were to ask the 287, though, I'd guess that they'd tell you that dying THEN, and in that way, was not a 'good' thing. And the survivor in those cases is NOT just making a metaphysical observation for the sake of Little Hawk's philosophical analysis....he is insinuating that HE was not 'ready', and that his survival was specifically because of God intervening. One more time...(7th? 12th?)...If your definition is that broad, it loses all relevance. If God is 'everything', and everything is God, we don't really need two words. If there is an 'eternal spirit' or something, that permeates all existence, but can't be identified, talked to, measured, predicted, or pinned down, except rhetorically, it is simply language being used to sound like we have a referent. You 'may' be correct...but it is a semantic truth which is like trying to grasp smoke. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why should anyone believe in 'God'? From: Little Hawk Date: 18 Apr 07 - 01:06 PM Good Lord! What travesties are committed in the name of Jesus. If I was him, I'd be quite disappointed by what people were doing in my name. What did you mean by your comments about equal freedom? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why should anyone believe in 'God'? From: Little Hawk Date: 18 Apr 07 - 01:19 PM Bill, your definition of "God" is so narrow that it's barely worth my taking the time and trouble to even argue about. You're not even on the same playing field. You are best off to dispute the existence of God with those whose concept of God is primitive, anthropomorphic, and narrow enough to suit your own concepts of the term...the conventionally religious, church-going, literal-minded types, that is. They, like you, seem to believe (or in your case, not believe) in a God that is separate from themselves. I don't. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why should anyone believe in 'God'? From: frogprince Date: 18 Apr 07 - 02:11 PM I heard a slight variation on that crash survivor scenerio, from a fundamentalist "thumper". If a Christian is flying on an airliner, the other passengers should be grateful. That's because God looks out for his own, so that particular plane is less apt to crash. I'm a believer (so far), but I count that yahoo among several who have helped me to respect atheists. Dean |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why should anyone believe in 'God'? From: Donuel Date: 18 Apr 07 - 02:30 PM Little Hawk It was dissapointment that required the Sermon on the mount. Dealing with conflict required rules. As Lewis Black said "the Jews back then were 4 hairs short of being baboons, they needed rules!" Now that we have nuclear weapons we are 3 hairs short of being baboons. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why should anyone believe in 'God'? From: Amos Date: 18 Apr 07 - 03:03 PM It was six men of Indostan, To learning much inclined, Who went to see the Elephant (Though all of them were blind), That each by observation Might satisfy his mind. The First approach'd the Elephant, And happening to fall Against his broad and sturdy side, At once began to bawl: "God bless me! but the Elephant Is very like a wall!" The Second, feeling of the tusk, Cried, -"Ho! what have we here So very round and smooth and sharp? To me 'tis mighty clear, This wonder of an Elephant Is very like a spear!" The Third approach'd the animal, And happening to take The squirming trunk within his hands, Thus boldly up and spake: "I see," -quoth he- "the Elephant Is very like a snake!" The Fourth reached out an eager hand, And felt about the knee: "What most this wondrous beast is like Is mighty plain," -quoth he,- "'Tis clear enough the Elephant Is very like a tree!" The Fifth, who chanced to touch the ear, Said- "E'en the blindest man Can tell what this resembles most; Deny the fact who can, This marvel of an Elephant Is very like a fan!" The Sixth no sooner had begun About the beast to grope, Then, seizing on the swinging tail That fell within his scope, "I see," -quoth he,- "the Elephant Is very like a rope!" And so these men of Indostan Disputed loud and long, Each in his own opinion Exceeding stiff and strong, Though each was partly in the right, And all were in the wrong! MORAL, So, oft in theologic wars The disputants, I ween, Rail on in utter ignorance Of what each other mean; And prate about an Elephant Not one of them has seen! Pub. 1878 in Linton's "Poetry of America" John Godfrey Saxe ( 1816-1887) Based on a Hindu legend. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why should anyone believe in 'God'? From: Little Hawk Date: 18 Apr 07 - 03:15 PM Yes, I like that tale, Amos. That's why I was saying that none of us have complete knowledge. "The only logic that is flawless is the logic that is backed up by complete knowledge of the subject being discussed. Does any of us have complete knowledge (of "God")? I think not." It's a good idea to respect both religious people and atheists. They both have partial knowledge of the subject. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why should anyone believe in 'God'? From: GUEST,Jesus Date: 18 Apr 07 - 04:06 PM I have zero respect for atheists. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why should anyone believe in 'God'? From: GUEST,Tunesmith Date: 18 Apr 07 - 04:37 PM If there is a God. He's sadistic bastard. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why should anyone believe in 'God'? From: Amos Date: 18 Apr 07 - 04:57 PM Ha! You're not the real Jesus!! The real Jesus would never say that. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why should anyone believe in 'God'? From: nutty Date: 18 Apr 07 - 05:51 PM Why should anyone believe in 'God'? ............................... Because it allows them to shed responsibility for their actions eg GOD'S WILL It gives them power over the actions of others eg. DICTATING GOD'S WILL It allows them to commit atrocities in his name and yet feel no guilt. eg RELIGIOUS WARS/ INTOLERENCE It allows them to feel superior and special eg GOD'S CHOSEN PEOPLE It allows a heirarchy to make control the masses by blackmailing them into behaving in a particular way. eg HEAVEN and HELL |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why should anyone believe in 'God'? From: Bill D Date: 18 Apr 07 - 06:06 PM Little Hawk...you miss the point again. *I* have no definitions of God, narrow or broad. All I do is question other's definitions. I comprehend why somone would have a definition that indicates an anthromorphic old fellow who sits in 'Heaven' and answers prayers about who to support in a war... and concerns himself with swallows and saves an occasional victim in a plane crash......I doubt their vision...but it is easy to comprehend. I also understand if someone claims there was a sentient being/spirit who clapped his hands and 'made everything', then sat back and watched. It has a certain allure, but I see no way to ever find out if it is true. But I don't even see any content in the assertion that somehow 'all existence' MEANS 'god'....if you say it with enough inflection in your voice, it can 'feel' meaningful, I suppose...and there's certainly no law agin' it.....but there's no law agin' saying "huh?" when someone 'explains' the idea, either! I guess I feel as compelled to question assertions as you do to make them....maybe 'God' made me do it...*grin* |
