BS: Why should anyone believe in 'God'?

Subject: RE: BS: Why should anyone believe in 'God'?
From: Slag
Date: 21 Apr 07 - 10:14 PM

Yes Bill D, folks do sometimes try to fill in the gaps with God and it's kinda like using bubblegum where a rivet is needed. If that is one's approach, their "God" is going to lose ground all day long in the face of advancing science.

Depending on how we define terms such things as righteousness and justice get codified and start looking pretty scientific but in complete analysis they are still metaphysical concepts. What makes something "right'? or "just"? Because it helps someone? Because it conforms to someone's or some people's idea of fair? Manifest Destiny seemed pretty righteous to a lot of erstwhile white Europeans; Indians be damned. We are just as sure we have the right fix on things today as those guys did almost 200 years ago. The moral dictums that stem from some religions have a timelessness and a universality that transcends our history. Of course you can argue the point but to many it is an indication that a moral code superior to anything of a given group of people may embrace, is at work.

The Apostle Paul says it this way. I paraphrase: "God has written His law upon the tablets of the hearts of men." Poetic but you get the point.

By the by, I am, among other things, an amateur astronomer and I relish the concepts of astrophysics and quantum mechanics. I find no conflict with how I perceive God. Science does nothing but discover how He did it!

Subject: RE: BS: Why should anyone believe in 'God'?
From: Bill D
Date: 21 Apr 07 - 10:49 PM

"Science does nothing but discover how He did it!"

Ok...that's the point I cannot argue with. It is, simply, the way you choose to approach it. You posit a god as behind it all - I do not. Neither of us can 'prove' anything either way....but it is interesting exploring either attitude and comparing notes, hmmm?

Subject: RE: BS: Why should anyone believe in 'God'?
From: Amos
Date: 21 Apr 07 - 10:53 PM

There is nothing so vain as a talking human brain.

Well, I'd say that talking from one beats it. :D

If God be the Author of Mankind, it is certainly he who has given us the ability to reason and the ability to comprehend things beyond reason. The human brain and its logic allow us to survive and prosper in this 3 (4) dimensional world. Our hearts allow us to look beyond the creation to the Creator.

It is well said that we see as through a glass, darkly. But I hazard that it would be more correct to say we see as in a glass, darkly. While I have no disagreement with your assessment of the difference between material science and the immaterial things that are our highest values in existence, including the wonder of existence itself, I submit that we are reflecting ourselves, and we are our own creators (plural), an infinite array of infinite potentials, cross-connected in a mishmash of admiration, misownership, resistance and assertion , a whirlwind matricx of attention given, received, rejected, denied and enforced — riotous dance of a trillion spirits.

I don't think anywhere in this dance you will find a master builder of spirit, though.. It just doesn't reckon.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Why should anyone believe in 'God'?
From: Mrrzy
Date: 21 Apr 07 - 10:59 PM

OK, let me clarify something else - when I said Morality is a human invention, I didn't mean we make it up out of whole cloth. Pain is bad, pleasure is good, being caught deceiving is bad, catching deceit is good... these are biological judgements, provided to us by nature. I guess what I meant is that only humans impose morality upon issues of eat, survive, reproduce. In particular, what religion does to sex is a crime against nature.

Subject: RE: BS: Why should anyone believe in 'God'?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 21 Apr 07 - 11:58 PM

Ah...the religious authorities in the mainstream Judeo-Christian-Muslim triumvirate, you mean, Mrrzy? Agreed. ;-) They have done some awful stuff to people's awareness regarding sex. However, they are not the only religions in existence. (Thank God!)

Subject: RE: BS: Why should anyone believe in 'God'?
From: Slag
Date: 22 Apr 07 - 03:21 AM

Awful things have always been done in the name of God. The worst things! Some were even motivated by good intentions. It's kinda like politics. Good intentions, honest people, true believers are all players who have tipped their hands. Dead money. The users will exploit them every time in anyway they can while they all shout "Trust me!" The users and abusers in religion(s) only want what they can get in the temporal world because they don't really believe in God, a god, any god or any principles of enlightenment. It's almost enough to turn anyone with a brain away from organized religion (or politics).

However! If you have tapped into the real thing, you understand this. In the Christian context this is known as the spirit of the anti-Christ and head of the corrupt world system (enumerated in Daniel and the Apocalypse). Well, I am ranging a little far of field. I think I will drop the esoterica and theology and try to stick to the topic at hand, if I post anymore to this thread.

Here's another reason to believe in God. God is a personal God, a constant companion, a real friend who will never leave you high and dry. It pays to know people in high places!

Subject: RE: BS: Why should anyone believe in 'God'?
From: Riginslinger
Date: 22 Apr 07 - 09:06 AM

"Here's another reason to believe in God. God is a personal God, a constant companion, a real friend who will never leave you..."


             That's just the way Jimmy Stewart felt about Harvey the rabbit.

Subject: RE: BS: Why should anyone believe in 'God'?
From: nutty
Date: 22 Apr 07 - 09:11 AM

Which was just what slag was saying. This is a personal belief no one can make you into a believer, or an unbeliever, even when threatening you with torture or other unmentionable things (as has happened in the past).

Subject: RE: BS: Why should anyone believe in 'God'?
From: Amos
Date: 22 Apr 07 - 09:52 AM

I think chimps have little tribal moral codes, judging from the way they act.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Why should anyone believe in 'God'?
From: Stringsinger
Date: 22 Apr 07 - 10:12 AM

Peace, you made an interesting statement.

"Eventually we get to the question of 'what causes life' or 'how can something so complex possibly exist'? And there we run into the wall. For all our sophistication, we have no answer."

There are many answers. Suggested reading, "The Origins of Species" by Charles Darwin.

Complexity of life is explained by evolution. It didn't just happen.

Life is a series of chemical occurances that evolved from a single-celled protozoa.

It's been pretty well documented.

Frank Hamilton

Subject: RE: BS: Why should anyone believe in 'God'?
From: nutty
Date: 22 Apr 07 - 11:34 AM

But where did that single-celled protazoa come from Frank??

Subject: RE: BS: Why should anyone believe in 'God'?
From: tarheel
Date: 22 Apr 07 - 11:37 AM

I believe in God and I am a Christain,too!
I was brought up in a Southern Baptist Church where my mom and dad were very active!
I am NOT a religious person!
being religious means having an opinion!
being a Christain means believing in God!
for those in here,and it seems that there are many,who missed out on being brought up in a Christain Home Environment, you have missed one of the true blessings of life!
I shall pray for all of you here!
tarheel

Subject: RE: BS: Why should anyone believe in 'God'?
From: Amos
Date: 22 Apr 07 - 11:39 AM

As far as the mechanics of organisms, Frank, you are spot on. One good study of The Blind Watchmaker will do wonders to clarify the thinking about the emergence of complexity and organization from apparently chaotic initial conditions.

I am tempted to write a sequel to Dawkins called "The Seeing Watch-User". There's an elephant on the living-room carpet which Dawkins most eloquently avoids. But the part that he addresses is beautifully done.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Why should anyone believe in 'God'?
From: Stringsinger
Date: 22 Apr 07 - 12:38 PM

Nutty,

From the primordial slime....chemicals from the beginnings of Earth...and that came from the Big Bang....and it goes billions of years back and developed from evolutionary processes.




"But where did that single-celled protazoa come from Frank??"

Subject: RE: BS: Why should anyone believe in 'God'?
From: nutty
Date: 22 Apr 07 - 12:47 PM

but how did the Big Bang come about Frank.

If it was connected with the stars - where did they come from??

Where did the primeval slime come from??

You can keep on asking such questions ad infinitum but it still brings you back to the start .... you either believe in God or you don't

Subject: RE: BS: Why should anyone believe in 'God'?
From: Stringsinger
Date: 22 Apr 07 - 01:12 PM

Nutty, the classic argument (Cosmological) to your question is where did god come from?
I maintain he came from the mind of mankind.

Frank

Subject: RE: BS: Why should anyone believe in 'God'?
From: Mrrzy
Date: 22 Apr 07 - 01:16 PM

Bingo!

Subject: RE: BS: Why should anyone believe in 'God'?
From: Bill D
Date: 22 Apr 07 - 01:41 PM

If you actually read ...& watch TV programs such as the series last night on Public TV about "The History of the Universe", you can go as deep as you care to into the details about how complex atoms are formed inside stars, and how certain atoms can...and MUST... combine under certain conditions to form the basic compounds necessary for life.

If you choose to say "there must have been some omnipotent force before the beginning to start all that chain, why, I can't stop you.....but IF you can make statements like that, I can legitimately ask "Why was there any 'force' at all before there was anything else?"
   All you are doing when you demand an answer to "What came first?" is forcing yourself to invent a term like 'god' so that you don't have to contemplate an 'infinite regress'. We simply don't KNOW what came first, and our minds really can't encompass the idea of "before the beginning"...it is a verbal construct, not one in physics that tells us much..(mathematicians may argue that THEY can, but they can only manipulate symbols and can't give an answer that helps anyone but other mathematicans.)

   Theologians offer an answer that 'feels good' to most people..."all you have to do is 'believe', and you'll see." And obviously, that is quite enough for most people....it allows them to stop asking.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------
"Philosophy is asking question for which there is no answer. Religion is having answers which cannot be questioned."


I do philosophy, and am satisfied to just keep asking.

Subject: RE: BS: Why should anyone believe in 'God'?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 22 Apr 07 - 01:47 PM

So am I. I would be satisfied if other people kept asking too, instead of dogmatically declaring that "this is the way it is".

Subject: RE: BS: Why should anyone believe in 'God'?
From: GUEST,Carl
Date: 22 Apr 07 - 02:50 PM

We will never know for sure.
Faith seems to be a major factor.
Man has often used belief for his\her advantage.
But, is there any advantage of totally ruling it out?

Subject: RE: BS: Why should anyone believe in 'God'?
From: Amos
Date: 22 Apr 07 - 03:09 PM

The notion of always seeking a prior cause point is circular; where you end up is with yourself, th eviewpoint asking the question. The framework of the question is the serial causality that we are habituated to in the ordinary life of matter in time.

One possibility is that consideration that space is there in order to have some energy and objects within it, is the ultimate origin of space. This is pretty unorthodox, but it makes a certain sense.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Why should anyone believe in 'God'?
From: GUEST,Tunesmith
Date: 22 Apr 07 - 03:10 PM

Why should anyone believe in "God".

a) Because they've been told to by their parents, church, school, state etc.
b) Because their ego won't let them believe that when they die
   they cease to be - in any form.
c) Because- to them -life would have no meaning without an after life
d)
e)

I'll leave it to someone else to fill in d and e!

Subject: RE: BS: Why should anyone believe in 'God'?
From: Slag
Date: 22 Apr 07 - 03:44 PM

I feel like I should revive my old thread, "God's Dicey Cup". There's some good discussion in it about Cosmology vs Creation and Evolution vs Adaptation. The straight Darwinian theory is pretty much on life support. The old theory of catastrophism would go much farther to explain the gaps or "missing links" that exist between species than a gradual change due to survival of the fittest. But again, that ranges far from the topic of THIS thread. My Mudcat New Year's Resolution (see) was to try to stay on topic and prevent thread drift.

Subject: RE: BS: Why should anyone believe in 'God'?
From: Ebbie
Date: 22 Apr 07 - 04:40 PM

Tarheel!

Ebbie!

Subject: RE: BS: Why should anyone believe in 'God'?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 22 Apr 07 - 07:36 PM

Well, I guess if I were speaking with honesty instead of caution, I'd say that I believe because God gave me the gift of faith, not because I chose to believe. Believing doesn't necessarily make me better or worse than anybody else - I just see things from the perspective of Catholic Christian faith. I fully realize that answer isn't satisfactory to anybody who doesn't believe, and I'm sure they're at least partly right in thinking that I believe because I was brought up that way. But then I could say that my being brought up that way was a gift, and the circle could go on and on.

Whatever the case, my faith is part of what I am. Discussing the merits or problems of my having faith or the merits or problems of another person NOT having faith, strikes me as problematic from a number of perspectives - and it does make me nervous. There's no way I can discuss faith with either atheists or fundamentalists, because they and I speak a totally different language. They're all black and white, and right and wrong - I'm more grey in my chosen hue. The only things I see as truly wrong are hatred and intolerance.

My faith is not right or wrong, but it does mean a lot to me - it is a sacred part of my life. Another's lack of faith is not right or wrong, either. It's who we are - take us or leave us. I suppose that belief is one of the many aspects of the human condition that test our tolerance. I hope our tolerance wins in the end, and that we can all gain by learning to respect and learn from each other's perspectives.


-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: BS: Why should anyone believe in 'God'?
From: Amos
Date: 22 Apr 07 - 09:20 PM

Mine (faith) is a similarly essential and sacred part of me, Joe, even though I may give it a different name, and think about it a bit differently.

I suppose our tolerance and benevolence is the primary soiurce of well-being in the long run, too.


A

Subject: RE: BS: Why should anyone believe in 'God'?
From: Mrrzy
Date: 22 Apr 07 - 11:41 PM

Why do you think we can never know for sure?

Subject: RE: BS: Why should anyone believe in 'God'?
From: Slag
Date: 23 Apr 07 - 01:05 AM

Joe, we all have a modicum of faith and you and I would most likely attribute the source of that as from the Almighty. Every human alive with an intellect above slime mold has faith that the sun will rise and that gravity will hold her to the planet. It becomes a question of where and in whom we put our faith. Scripture says "Accursed is he who places his trust in man." The Author of our being wants us to place our trust in Him. If one has even casually read through the Bible he is struck by the number of absolute claims, promises and warnings from God. You either believe it or you don't. The Word also says "The fool has said in his heart 'There is no God'." and elsewhere "There is a way that seems right unto man but the ends thereof are the way of death."

If you believe in God, is it the God of the Bible in Whom you believe or an edited version of your own thinking which is less demanding and more suitable to your own likes? God is God or He is not. You either believe the Bible IS the word of God ( I Thess. 2:13) or you don't. The claim from the Bible itself is that it is the Word of God and as such it has supremacy over all other writings and institutions of Man. "In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and the Word was God." A bold statement. A fundamental statement one might say.

Most people hold some core beliefs whatever those may be. Otherwise we derive no meaning from life and we might as well be, uh, what? slime mold?! A good picture has both black and white absolutes plus the shades of gray. The absolutes provide a scale and contrast to the other elements of the photo. Christians may argue some finer points of theology, biblical interpretation and so on but there are core beliefs which are fundamental to the Christian faith. So call me a Fundamentalist but please don't use that as a category to categorically dismiss the things that I write.

God is knowable. It's as simple as John 3:16 and even a small child can come to that faith, be born again and know God through Jesus Christ and yet it is so deep that it is an inexhaustible well of knowledge and wisdom. Christ is not pushy about it. He did what He did. He sent His people out into the world to proclaim His good news for Mankind but He leaves the decision in your hand, take it or leave it. For me, it wasn't until I came to the end of myself that I turned to Him and He radically changed my life. He took away my destructive habits and turned me about 180 degrees (facing Him) and gave me REAL life.

Mrrzy, You CAN know for sure, if you are willing to make the commitment.

Subject: RE: BS: Why should anyone believe in 'God'?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 23 Apr 07 - 02:25 AM

Unless you yourself actually have a given experience (whatever it may be) you can never know for sure, Mrrzy. That is what I mean. Only the one who has the experience knows for sure. Other people have opinions about it...and their opinions usually derive from the authority figures they trust the most. Those authority figures may be their parents, the mass media, their teachers, the church, their best friend, their doctor, or the science community (all of whom are wrong about things from time to time...).

Nothing will ever equal firsthand experience of something. Then you don't give a toot about people's opinions any more regarding that particular experience...but they may annoy you with them anyway, of course.

Subject: RE: BS: Why should anyone believe in 'God'?
From: Mrrzy
Date: 23 Apr 07 - 09:22 AM

Every human alive with an intellect above slime mold has faith that the sun will rise and that gravity will hold her to the planet.

Nonsense. There is no faith involved in the knowledge that gravity exists and that our planet spins on its axis.

That is part of the problem with discussing faith with believers. They tend to confuse knowledge with faith.

And Little Hawk - believers may claim to have "evidence" but what you yourself have demonstrated is that they don't. All they have is wishful thinking and, possibly, some subjective certainty (e.g. - faith). As long as they admit that, I'm fine with it all. What I argue against is the misconception that there is just as much rational reasoning behind today's faith as there is behind today's knowledge.

Subject: RE: BS: Why should anyone believe in 'God'?
From: Amos
Date: 23 Apr 07 - 09:39 AM

Hell, 45% or thereabouts of Americans don't even believe int he evolution of species -- especially when their own is concerned.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Why should anyone believe in 'God'?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 23 Apr 07 - 09:40 AM

Please PM me. I will not talk with you further about this on an open thread. You are not understanding me at all. I do not confuse knowledge with faith. I have never confused knowledge with faith. I've been a frikkin' outright goddamn WORSHIPPER of knowledge all my life, for heaven's sake, ever since I was a little kid!!!! We are talking completely at cross purposes most of the time on this thread, and I will not suffer through it any further.

Subject: RE: BS: Why should anyone believe in 'God'?
From: Bill D
Date: 23 Apr 07 - 11:49 AM

Slag...you have ceased discussing and begun preaching. I do not know whether you can see the difference between what you just said and what Joe Offer just said, but it is important.


" It's as simple as John 3:16 and even a small child can come to that faith, be born again and know God through Jesus Christ and yet it is so deep that it is an inexhaustible well of knowledge and wisdom. Christ is not pushy about it. He did what He did. He sent His people out into the world to proclaim His good news for Mankind but He leaves the decision in your hand, take it or leave it. "

that is PREACHING. And within it are implicit statements that Muslims and atheists and Hindus and all others who do not 'accept Jesus' are in deep trouble......and THAT is why we who are not religious are concerned. Many of those who believe as you do are trying to impose this set of beliefs on others.

I, and many others, are willing to quietly coexist with believers, but we are not willing to have laws and behavior controlled by believers......and this IS a continued, ongoing issue, whether you personally, are guilty or not.


That's how it is.

Subject: RE: BS: Why should anyone believe in 'God'?
From: GUEST,God
Date: 23 Apr 07 - 12:06 PM

(Sigh)...Don't make me come down there...

Subject: RE: BS: Why should anyone believe in 'God'?
From: Bill D
Date: 23 Apr 07 - 12:08 PM

oh...PLEASE do come down. I have questions. We could have SUCH an interesting chat.

(ummm....I will need ID of course)

Subject: RE: BS: Why should anyone believe in 'God'?
From: Amos
Date: 23 Apr 07 - 12:32 PM

Jaysus, Mary an' Joseph, Slag, you certainly got up on a soapbox.


I find such uncritical assertions and their implied absolute adherence to only particular myths to the detriment of others difficult to read and impossible to speak to.

See ya 'round,pal.


A

Subject: RE: BS: Why should anyone believe in 'God'?
From: Ebbie
Date: 23 Apr 07 - 01:17 PM

Thanks, Bill and Amos.

Subject: RE: BS: Why should anyone believe in 'God'?
From: Slag
Date: 23 Apr 07 - 04:44 PM

Mea culpa ! I did get a little preachy there didn't I? I had hope that it would be seen in the context of my personal experience. At least I didn't pass the collection plate! Still in all it was in keeping with the original question which includes the word "should". "Should" implies "ought" and the ability to effect the same.

Mrrzy. You don't recognize your own faith: faith in science, faith in human reasoning. Recognize too, that reason's ultimate appeal is unto reason itself which you should see as the ultimate tautology.

Religious exclusion is so much the source of hatred and bloodshed in this world. There is that aspect of the Christian message. It is called the "offense of the Gospel" and has been known ever sense Christ. One could even argue that the Israelite and hence the Jew, as God's Chosen People and therefore a "peculiar people" would also seem offensive to those outside. The Apostle Paul addresses this question in his letters to the Christians at Corinth. God, being a fair and just God will judge all according to the light they have. If Christ said I am the Truth then those who have sought after the truth and justice their whole live, have sought after Christ though they never knew His name.

Christianity excludes no one. Whoever, Jew or Gentile, American Indian pre 1492 or South Seas Islander who turns to God, who seeks the truth and righteousness, God will in no way cast out. However, if, having heard the true story on Jesus and you reject Him, you've rejected the Truth and the Author of your existence. What is left? Still, a true Christian, reflecting God's universal love, doesn't hate anyone, isn't pushy about it, doesn't go to war over it or start lopping off people's heads. This attitude was reflected in the Christian origins of the US. TOLERANCE! Freedom of religion. Freedom of conscience! The right to not believe! And I concur! Just don't take away my right to the same considerations.

Lastly, If you read some of my other posting, I can get pretty preachy about patriotism and American ideals. It, too, kinda goes with the turf. I enjoy the debates, as long as they stay on course. Things can get pretty lively and heated and we all should do our best to leave animosity and personalities out of the question.

Subject: RE: BS: Why should anyone believe in 'God'?
From: Bill D
Date: 23 Apr 07 - 05:08 PM

"If Christ said I am the Truth then those who have sought after the truth and justice their whole live, have sought after Christ though they never knew His name."

...*sigh*...and I suppose you have no idea why that sentence is a prime example of fallacious reasoning.

*IF* some real person actually said that, then the ONLY thing to say about it is that he might be right...and he might be wrong. Your statement assumes 1) the he did say it and 2) that there is metaphysical Truth involved. THEN you toss in the fallacy of equivocation by equating one type of 'seeking' with another.

....and buried in all of this is the assumption that the Christian bible IS absolute truth and must not be questioned.
You were on pretty sound footing by just claiming that there MUST be a first cause of some spiritual sort. That is just your personal view of the ultimate beginnings....but you can't use that opinon to prove points unless your opponents also agree to it.

I am convinced that you are a thoughtful, committed Christian who tries to live a good life and takes his faith seriously as he moves thru life...but there are thoughtful, committed agnostics and atheists who do the same. We need to just shrug and judge folks by what they do...and not what banner they fly.

Subject: RE: BS: Why should anyone believe in 'God'?
From: Amos
Date: 23 Apr 07 - 05:26 PM

Well, ok then. I won't bombard you with my seventy-'leven proofs of Harvey the Rabbit as the actual manifestation of all Creation.


A

Subject: RE: BS: Why should anyone believe in 'God'?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 23 Apr 07 - 05:33 PM

"We need to just shrug and judge folks by what they do...and not what banner they fly."

Yeah, Bill. I couldn't agree more with that.

Subject: RE: BS: Why should anyone believe in 'God'?
From: Ebbie
Date: 23 Apr 07 - 06:00 PM

"However, if, having heard the true story on Jesus and you reject Him, you've rejected the Truth and the Author of your existence. What is left? " slag

Glad to see that you're not preaching anymore. :)

The one thing that is off-putting to me is the tone of I-know-the-facts-and-you-do-not. I'm much more comfortable with a little humility.

Subject: RE: BS: Why should anyone believe in 'God'?
From: Amos
Date: 23 Apr 07 - 06:19 PM

I am afraid your assertions demand a substitution of labels for realities, in the first place, which I think is a serious cognitive trap.

Further, your assertions seem to call for an erosion of individual ability and empowerment, in preference to the power of an external entity of uncertain attributes, which I consider to be a treacherous slope indeed.

Finally, your assertions require the abandonment or adulteration of individual responsibility for creation, which is a certain path to the corruption of the individual spirit.

Therefore, I reject them.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Why should anyone believe in 'God'?
From: Slag
Date: 23 Apr 07 - 07:37 PM

I guess that's what I get for trying to put something in a nutshell that doesn't belong in a nutshell! Then again, maybe it's my lack of verbal skill? What I was trying to say is that someone with an easy conscience, a soul that strives to do the right thing does not live in fear.

Yes, I make assumptions, for myself in the framework and context of the text, the Bible. I accept its assertions. This, however, does not limit my ability to see aspects of what I believe to be God's truth in the writing and lives of other people. Man, I love the writings of Voltaire though I know a lot of Christians have quite the opposite opinion of him. T.S. Eliot, brilliant! Albert Einstein sought mathematical truth but he was also philosophically, if not religiously, a believer in God. Charles Schulz demonstrated Christian truths all through his Peanuts comic strip. He preached without being preachy and was eloquent. Can't you read of the life of Jesus see that He went about doing good and confronting evil and lies? They are many kinds of "truth" and it is not an equivocation to say that each in its own way points to the God who made them or better, the God whose nature they reflect. That's the way I see it. A humanist may acknowledge the same truths and yet attribute them to the human intellect. I can't argue with that except on a faith basis which is what I am trying to convey. Why should anyone believe in "God"? I reiterate, the choice is yours.

We've been around this bush a time or two. When arguments are coming out of a closed system with its own vocabulary, very little may be accomplished. It comes down to defining terms. Broad subjects, broad strokes on a limited page in the blog-o-sphere.

Ebbie, I am truly sorry if you are off-put. If you began to tell me about someone with whom you knew intimately and I began to argue with you and claimed that you didn't really know this person, couldn't really know this person, I might be off-put but you would think of me as ignorant and maybe much worse. I will not apologize for knowing the person of whom I speak and if that offends you, I truly am sorry. It is your assumption and that of others in this thread that God is unknowable, that God does not exist, that God is the same God in all religions, that God is unnecessary, etc. I have stated my case and have given some, hopefully, compelling reasons why anyone should believe in God. I can say with Paul "for I know in whom I have believed and am persuaded that He is able to keep that which I have committed (my soul) unto Him against that day.", that day being the day of judgment ( II Tim 1:12b). What more can I say?

Subject: RE: BS: Why should anyone believe in 'God'?
From: John O'L
Date: 23 Apr 07 - 07:49 PM

When Jesus (reportedly) said "I am the truth, the way and the light", it was within the context of his opposition to the way the temple was being used as a self-perpetuating instrument of power in Jerusalem at that time. He was, at that time, the only one telling them the truth, showing them the way they could relate to their god individualy, and being open and transparent about the whole thing.

I don't think for a moment he believed himself to be some kind of portal, as he has been presented ever since by those who would use the temple as a
self-perpetuating...etc.

Subject: RE: BS: Why should anyone believe in 'God'?
From: Amos
Date: 23 Apr 07 - 08:01 PM

know in whom I have believed and am persuaded that He is able to keep that which I have committed (my soul) unto Him against that day.", that day being the day of judgment ( II Tim 1:12b). What more can I say?

Hell, that's a hard act to follow -- so maybe nothing.



A

Subject: RE: BS: Why should anyone believe in 'God'?
From: Mrrzy
Date: 23 Apr 07 - 09:55 PM

how about, Click your heels three times and you're home?

Subject: RE: BS: Why should anyone believe in 'God'?
From: Amos
Date: 23 Apr 07 - 09:59 PM

That only workls with the "No place like home" prayer repeated three times very fast without stumbling.

Plus, you have to be from Kansas.

And you have to have the right kind of little dog, too, or the results are unprdeictable.


A

Subject: RE: BS: Why should anyone believe in 'God'?
From: Bill D
Date: 23 Apr 07 - 10:07 PM

talk about timing...thiswas in todays comics here.

(If that doesn't work, go here and go to April 23.)

Subject: RE: BS: Why should anyone believe in 'God'?
From: Bill D
Date: 23 Apr 07 - 10:09 PM

..and before Leadfingers shows up...200!