BS: Why should anyone believe in 'God'?

Subject: RE: BS: Why should anyone believe in 'God'?
From: Amos
Date: 23 Apr 07 - 10:16 PM

Another masterful encapsulation of unreason rampant...

A

Subject: RE: BS: Why should anyone believe in 'God'?
From: Bill D
Date: 23 Apr 07 - 10:26 PM

*grin*....I wish we still got Kudzu...I miss him, and forget to look it up online.

But we DO have Tom, the Dancing Bug

(look at other days, Amos...he does lots of Bush material..)

Subject: RE: BS: Why should anyone believe in 'God'?
From: Amos
Date: 24 Apr 07 - 12:06 AM

What a treat, Bill! Thanks!! He's on my reg'l'ar list now.


A

Subject: RE: BS: Why should anyone believe in 'God'?
From: Mrrzy
Date: 24 Apr 07 - 09:13 AM

I love Tom The Dancing Bug. Especially his Godman... and BillD, we got that one a few days ago, but I laughed!

Subject: RE: BS: Why should anyone believe in 'God'?
From: Stringsinger
Date: 24 Apr 07 - 11:50 AM

"Albert Einstein sought mathematical truth but he was also philosophically, if not religiously, a believer in God."

Slag, Einstein did not believe in the god you are talking about. He said that he believed in Spinoza's god which was more pantheistic than monotheistic. Also, he said, quite pointedly, that he did not believe in a personal god and that to do so was naive.

Frank Hamilton

Subject: RE: BS: Why should anyone believe in 'God'?
From: Donuel
Date: 24 Apr 07 - 12:15 PM

Einstein much like Beethoven, Jefferson, Ben Franklin, Geothe, Sir Issak Newton and many other enlightened individuals had no use for organized religion or a god defined by doctrine. They believed in a god which was not only nature but the spirit of creation within themselves. Their work and art is a celebration of the god within themselves to be celebrated by all.

There is no argument that the god business is lucrative. With money comes power. When that power mandates a hate of a certain segment of society (non believers, queers, scientists etc) things get ugly.

It seems the great stides by a secular United States are on the decline as fundamentalism celebrates conformist hate, mediocracy and war.

Some would say things have improved since the Inquisition but "fundamentaly" the fundamentalists are the same, even on my street. Only our weapons have "improved".

Subject: RE: BS: Why should anyone believe in 'God'?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 24 Apr 07 - 01:06 PM

"They believed in a god which was not only nature but the spirit of creation within themselves. Their work and art is a celebration of the god within themselves to be celebrated by all."

Sounds like a very good approach to me...

Subject: RE: BS: Why should anyone believe in 'God'?
From: GUEST,Carl
Date: 24 Apr 07 - 07:05 PM

Is Christ God?

Subject: RE: BS: Why should anyone believe in 'God'?
From: Bill D
Date: 24 Apr 07 - 08:03 PM

When he 'comes back', you can ask him.

Subject: RE: BS: Why should anyone believe in 'God'?
From: *daylia*
Date: 25 Apr 07 - 06:34 AM

I thought he already answered that one ie "I am the Way, the Truth and the Life".

(Not to be confused with "I am God, unlike all you poor suckers")

Subject: RE: BS: Why should anyone believe in 'God'?
From: *daylia*
Date: 25 Apr 07 - 06:55 AM

He also taught that everything he did we can do also, and even greater things yet. And that the Kingdom of God is internal, not external.

Gotta LOVE simple, eh?    :-)    And also the human need to analyse, chastise, baptise, criticize, politicize, philosophize, hypothesize, intellectualize, hypnotize, sensationalize, astrologize    ;-)    in short, to make everything just as complicated (and twisted!) as possible.

We are quite the piece of Work, we are!

Subject: RE: BS: Why should anyone believe in 'God'?
From: GUEST,God
Date: 25 Apr 07 - 06:59 AM

Why all the fuss? I'm God. I can do what I want. So there.

Subject: RE: BS: Why should anyone believe in 'God'?
From: Mrrzy
Date: 25 Apr 07 - 09:23 AM

Picking nits here - of course Christ is god, because that is what Christ means. Now, if you're asking if jesus was christ, that is another question... and there isn't even good historical evidence of the existence of jesus.

Subject: RE: BS: Why should anyone believe in 'God'?
From: *daylia*
Date: 25 Apr 07 - 09:37 AM

It would be easier to have it all historically cut and dried, I suppose, but no one needs historical evidence to know Jesus. Hmmmm .... how does that old church song go ... oh yeah ...

Seek and you shall find,
Knock and the door will be opened
Ask and it shall be given,
and the Love comes a'tricklin' down....

(from the Beatitudes. Except the Love tricklin down bit)

Subject: RE: BS: Why should anyone believe in 'God'?
From: *daylia*
Date: 25 Apr 07 - 09:43 AM

And seeing as we're into picking nits here, may I respectfully point out that "Christ" does not mean "God". The word "Christ" is from the Old Testament, and it means "the Messiah" or "the Anointed One", as foretold by the prophets of Hebrew scripture.

Definition here.

Subject: RE: BS: Why should anyone believe in 'God'?
From: Amos
Date: 25 Apr 07 - 10:10 AM

It is interesting to me that the most important bits of Christ's doctrine -- that "heaven" (whatever that was in the orgiinal Aramaic concept) is within you, and that the individual is capable of miraculous acts -- are the bits most left out of establishment indoctrination, least emphasized; while the doctrines of sin and contrition and fear of the Almighty are much more popular.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Why should anyone believe in 'God'?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 25 Apr 07 - 10:15 AM

Everyone can do what they want. We're all godlike in that respect. Mind you, we have to deal with the consequences too.

For instance, I could go out and rob a bank right now...

But I don't think I will. ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Why should anyone believe in 'God'?
From: Amos
Date: 25 Apr 07 - 10:21 AM

Go ahead, LH. I'll forgive you, and give you dispensation. For a cut.


A

Subject: RE: BS: Why should anyone believe in 'God'?
From: *daylia*
Date: 25 Apr 07 - 10:27 AM

Hey LH, make it the World Bank and I'll be in for a cut too!

Subject: RE: BS: Why should anyone believe in 'God'?
From: Mrrzy
Date: 25 Apr 07 - 11:28 AM

Right - whereas Jesus is just a name, Christ is a TITLE. The argument amongst the monotheists isn't whether Jesus existed, it's whether Jesus was Christ. Christians say yes, others say no.

Subject: RE: BS: Why should anyone believe in 'God'?
From: Amos
Date: 25 Apr 07 - 11:37 AM

For some reason this strikes me as akin to arguing whether or not Harvey is really the Easter Bunny or just similar to him in certain ways.

Don't get me wrong -- I strongly support the free play of imagination and creative thought.

It's when it gets pushed down others' craws as substantive fact that I draw the line.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Why should anyone believe in 'God'?
From: Mrrzy
Date: 25 Apr 07 - 01:18 PM

Bingo!

Subject: RE: BS: Why should anyone believe in 'God'?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 25 Apr 07 - 02:09 PM

Mrrzy, the Bahai's say that there have been many Christs. Among them: Buddha, Baha'Ullah, Jesus of Nazareth, Zoroaster, and Krishna, as well as others.

You are right that "Christ" is a title, and Jesus is a name.

Are you at all acquainted with Bahai philosophy?

Another thought...have you ever studied Taoism? It's a very interesting spiritual philosophy which does not talk about any God or any Christ or any supernatural beings, but merely about a harmonious way of living that is in accord with Nature.

Subject: RE: BS: Why should anyone believe in 'God'?
From: Riginslinger
Date: 25 Apr 07 - 04:29 PM

What's happened to Zoroaster lately? You don't hear much about him anymore.

Subject: RE: BS: Why should anyone believe in 'God'?
From: Amos
Date: 25 Apr 07 - 05:12 PM

I doubt anything has happened to him lately. Zoroastrianism is a religion that was the national religion of the Achaemenid, Parthian and Sasanian dynastic empires of anciant Persia; it is predominantly practiced today by the Iranian Zoroastrian community and Parsi community of India.

Prophet Zoroaster is generally accepted as an authentic historical figure, circa 1200 BC, making him possibly the founder of the earliest religion based on revealed scripture. Others place him anywhere between the 18th and the 6th centuries BCE.


In any case, not what I would call a happening dude.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Why should anyone believe in 'God'?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 25 Apr 07 - 05:23 PM

Ah, but there are still a lot of Parsees. I've met some. Good people. So Zoroaster is very much a relevant prophet as far as they are concerned.

Some of the more recent "successful" religions are the Jehovah's Witness version of Christianity, Mormonism (another offshoot of Christianity), and the Bahai Faith (an offshoot from the Muslim culture, but Bahais place all the holy books of the world in their temples, revere them all, and revere all the prophets from the other major religions. They seem them all as Christs or prophets of the same God....or Divine Principle). I like the Bahai approach very much.)

Subject: RE: BS: Why should anyone believe in 'God'?
From: Mrrzy
Date: 25 Apr 07 - 05:57 PM

I've read a lot of Tao, actually, but I take my moderation in moderation...

Subject: RE: BS: Why should anyone believe in 'God'?
From: Nickhere
Date: 25 Apr 07 - 06:27 PM

Donuel: "Some would say things have improved since the Inquisition but "fundamentaly" the fundamentalists are the same, even on my street. Only our weapons have "improved".


We have other inquisitions today..... are you a communist / terorrist / do you have ideas that differ from those of the President and others like him? / do you want to be quizzed about all this in our facility at Guantanamo? Ve have vays.....

Human 'moral progress' hasn't been linear, it's been circular since time immemorial.

Mrrrzy: "there isn't even good historical evidence of the existence of Jesus"

I think this might be taking rejection of the Bible a tad too far. OK, if you don't believe it is the word of God, no problem (for me, anyway). If you don't believe Jesus said and did all those things... well, some of the acts might seem incredible I suppose.

But there's 'no historical evidence'??

Why couldn't you accept at least that Jesus was a historical person, even if you decide not to accept he was the Son of God? At least four different writers thought this man remarkable enough to write a kind of biography of his short but remarkable life. They each tell a similiar story in the main points while adding other details that complement this story. Couldn't it be that the details of such a remarkable life might be well enough known to the whole community for the four writers to be familiar with them?

Amos accepts the existence of Zoroaster as a historical person quite freely and without any problems ("Prophet Zoroaster is generally accepted as an authentic historical figure, circa 1200 BC" - though I love that use of the passive voice: 'generally accepted....' yes, but by whom?) . Why is there such a problem accepting Jesus was a historical person? And that's before we get into other historical evidence such as the Roman Census etc., There are indeed good reasons to believe Jesus was a real person whether or not you accept he was God.

Could there be some bias here? Why do we even believe Julius Ceaser ever existed? Afterall we only have references to him in a few tatty ancient books (could have been a fictional character in a novel!), a few coins (could have been of an imaginary person!) and a book apparently written by him about an imaginary place called Gaul (but could have been written by anyone who decided then to use the name Julius Cesaer). The whole thing could have been an elaborate hoax for reasons that are lost to us today....and the plot thickens!!

Subject: RE: BS: Why should anyone believe in 'God'?
From: Nickhere
Date: 25 Apr 07 - 06:40 PM

And I forgot to add the Acts of the Apostles (the so-called Apocrypha) which are basically a collection of letters written by various Apostles (such as Peter and Paul) to the fledgling christian communities scattered round the meditterannean. Jesus is regularly mentioned in these real letters as a matter of fact real person, just as you or I would mention someone in our family when writing to an acquaintance.

People have posted here about religion and power an money. As far as the early Christian church was concerned, nothing could have been farther from the case. Christians were in the main poor, persecuted and on the run. In Rome they left a legacy of hundreds if not thousands of kilometres of tunnels called catacombs where they met, prayed and buried their dead, ever fearful of becoming gruesome entertainment for the Roman mob. New ones are still being discovered all the time, and I have visited them myself and can attest to their reality.

One of the earliest parts of the Acts even tells how they were gathered in a house after Jesus had died and ressurected, 'fearful of an angry Jewish mob' (these would probably have been the Pharisees and others who had Christ put to death and viciously opposed the Apostles). So, life was no bed of roses for them.

And try being a Christian in a country like China, where until recently it would have probably meant a lengthy jail term at minimum. People seem to forget that the Christian church exists in different circumstances all over the world. And those who talk about the Church and hatred and oppression of the poor have obviously never heard of the Liberation Theology prevalent in Latin America, where it is a voice for the oppressed against the liberal economics of the neo-cons.

Subject: RE: BS: Why should anyone believe in 'God'?
From: Amos
Date: 25 Apr 07 - 06:51 PM

I think the evidentiary base for Caesar is much firmer than that for the existence of Jesus. I am quite certain there WAS a Jesus of Galilee and Nazareth, just as I am sure ther e is a Joe in Oshkosh AND in Walla Walla. It's a statistical probability. But as to the acts and deeds attributed to him by those invested in forwarding his name, I take those with a grain of salt, just as I do the proselytizations of the Hare Krishnas and the Moonies at the airport.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Why should anyone believe in 'God'?
From: Ebbie
Date: 25 Apr 07 - 08:05 PM

Nickhere, since when is Acts part of the Apocrypha?

Subject: RE: BS: Why should anyone believe in 'God'?
From: Amos
Date: 25 Apr 07 - 08:18 PM

Human 'moral progress' hasn't been linear, it's been circular since time immemorial.

With all due respect, I would argue it is on an evolutionary spiral.

There are scores of extreme forms of barbarism which were once wide-spread, and are now not, not counting the Middle East and the United States. :D

To be honest, I do actually believe in some sort of forward evolution of civilization; I think lately though, we have been in a retrogression.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Why should anyone believe in 'God'?
From: GUEST,carl
Date: 25 Apr 07 - 09:02 PM

It is easy to understand God as long as you don't try to explain him.
Joseph Joubert

I cannot imagine a God who rewards and punishes the objects of his creation and is but a reflection of human frailty.
Albert Einstein

Subject: RE: BS: Why should anyone believe in 'God'?
From: Nickhere
Date: 25 Apr 07 - 09:11 PM

Amos: "With all due respect, I would argue it is on an evolutionary spiral"

Downwards ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Why should anyone believe in 'God'?
From: Nickhere
Date: 25 Apr 07 - 09:18 PM

Ebbie - you're quite right. My apologies.

Subject: RE: BS: Why should anyone believe in 'God'?
From: LukeKellylives (Chris)
Date: 25 Apr 07 - 09:31 PM

Before I say anything, I must make sure you realize I have only read the first post of this thread. Sorry if I say something already in here.

Now, to my answer:

I, personally, think that some people just need some consolation. Most people only believe out of fear of eternal damnation in case they DO stop believing in God.

All logic points to God not existing. However, faith and logic never intertwine. I, personally, believe in God. Not to the extent that I would go and preach it to people and try to be a converter (I hate people who throw their religion into other peoples' faces), but I just think he exists.

Logic was spawned from humans, not from an almighty being. For all we know, two plus two could equal "fish" to God. It's our logic, which means that we might be using our minds the wrong way when we point to why there couldn't be a God.

Think about it. God gave us the power of free will. He knew this would lead to non-believers due to the human train of thought and logic. Not his logic.

This isn't to say that people who don't believe in God don't make good points.

For example.

If God is all-knowing, but at the same time, we have free will, wouldn't he know what we were going to do? This means that he sends people into a life of damnation knowingly.

But maybe that theory is wrong.

And another controversial topic is sins.

We don't know what the real sins are. The people who rewrote the Bible took out everything they thought of as blasphemy. This means that they also added things. No one has actually seen all of the true Bible (although they DO know it stated that Jesus had human urges--this was considered blasphemy by the church).

God is something that no one can prove exists or doesn't exist. It's something we have to decide individually.

Why should anyone believe in God?

If nothing else...

For hope.

Without a God, there would be no afterlife. Just nothingness. No conscious thought, no memories, no dreams...Just nothingness.

Is that really something that you want for the afterlife? Granted, it is better than eternal torture in Hell...But I'd rather have a chance at a peaceful afterlife among the angels than to have nothing but an eternity of nothingness.






Another religious debate from your resident Mudkitten (seriously...I'm the only one under twenty here!).

Subject: RE: BS: Why should anyone believe in 'God'?
From: Bill D
Date: 25 Apr 07 - 10:16 PM

"Without a God, there would be no afterlife. Just nothingness. No conscious thought, no memories, no dreams...Just nothingness."

ummmmm...yep, that sounds about right.

"Is that really something that you want for the afterlife?"

Well, if that was correct, there would be no afterlife to 'want' anything for.

And you'll pardon me perhaps if I don't see the logic of believing something just because it sounds like a good idea. The other problem is that the descriptions OF the presumed afterlfe touted by the major religious sects don't seem particularly appetizing to me. Frankly, I would not care to live an eternity in a place run the way I'm told it will be run.

So...lacking good evidence that there will BE and afterlife, and not liking submitted descriptions of it, I choose not to fret about it.

Am I 'risking eternal damnation' or even some sort of Limbo for souls who were good guys, but misguided? Could be...but I like the odds.
   No, I didn't always think this way...but I studied 'thinking', and serious thought led me to skepticism. Lots of steps and questions along the way, but here I am...well over 3/4 thru my likely span, and I see no better ideas.

The only thing I regret is that *IF* I'm right, I don't get to say "I told you so."

Subject: RE: BS: Why should anyone believe in 'God'?
From: LukeKellylives (Chris)
Date: 25 Apr 07 - 10:33 PM

Haha. Well put, Bill.

Subject: RE: BS: Why should anyone believe in 'God'?
From: Amos
Date: 26 Apr 07 - 01:12 AM

Logic was spawned from humans, not from an almighty being.

So was God.



A

Subject: RE: BS: Why should anyone believe in 'God'?
From: Amos
Date: 26 Apr 07 - 01:15 AM

Without a God, there would be no afterlife. Just nothingness. No conscious thought, no memories, no dreams...Just nothingness."

What absolute codswallop. You, all by yourself, are quite big enough to fill all kinds of spaces with conscious thought with or without a body, and I have little doubt you will be doing so quite vehemently as soon as you recover from the shock of loss, when your current body drops out from under you.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Why should anyone believe in 'God'?
From: *daylia*
Date: 26 Apr 07 - 06:39 AM

oooo boy .... you just keep going exactly the way you're going, Chris. Don't let anybody suck that vital, refreshing wind out of your sails!

The responses to your 1st post here remind me of this old song, from my wild and woolly youth ....

"So, so you think you can tell Heaven from Hell,
blue skies from pain.
Can you tell a green field from a cold steel rail?
A smile from a veil?
Do you think you can tell?
And did they get you to trade your heroes for ghosts? ....

We're just two lost souls swimming in a fish bowl,
year after year,
Running over the same old ground.
What have we found?
The same old fears."

(Pink Floyd, "Wish You Were Here")

Subject: RE: BS: Why should anyone believe in 'God'?
From: Amos
Date: 26 Apr 07 - 09:43 AM

And you are also quite capable of generating all the hope in the world without any help. Try it. Stand off a few feet behind your body and decide to feel a whole lot of it. It's faster, easier, more authentic and better-quality sensation than you will ever get filtering it through an invisible playmate.


A

Subject: RE: BS: Why should anyone believe in 'God'?
From: *daylia*
Date: 26 Apr 07 - 10:03 AM

Amos, were it not for the help and reasons for hope freely given, just for the asking, by one of my "invisible playmates" (not!) -- I doubt I'd still be around today.

I simply cannot do it all for myself, all the time. I do need help, on occasion. And, being human, I think that just goes with the territory.

Subject: RE: BS: Why should anyone believe in 'God'?
From: Amos
Date: 26 Apr 07 - 10:18 AM

Well and good, Daylia. I was speaking about your capabilities, not your practices. Perhaps you have more power than you give yourself credit for? It is not unusual.


A

Subject: RE: BS: Why should anyone believe in 'God'?
From: *daylia*
Date: 26 Apr 07 - 11:00 AM

Quite so, Amos!   :-)

Consider the French army in Joan of Arc's day, though. They had given up all hope of ever driving the English from their homeland after a Hundred Years of defeat. They were sitting ducks, just waiting for the final death blow, like an exhausted animal lying back and exposing it's throat to the wolves.

Without her most *extraordinary* help and encouragement, lighting the fires of confidence, pride and patriotism under their butts nad personally leading them into battle, the nation of France would be nothing but memory today.

And oh wow --- what WOULD we ever have done without La Belle Province keepin us forever on our toes!   

;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Why should anyone believe in 'God'?
From: Mrrzy
Date: 26 Apr 07 - 01:46 PM

We are a social species. You shouldn't have to do anything alone you'd rather have help with - but you'll get much more help from people than from imaginary friends!

Subject: RE: BS: Why should anyone believe in 'God'?
From: Wesley S
Date: 26 Apr 07 - 02:00 PM

What if the people you get help from have been inspired by imaginary friends? Does that count? Should the assistance be refused if it's not coming from the "right" place?

Subject: RE: BS: Why should anyone believe in 'God'?
From: Nickhere
Date: 26 Apr 07 - 03:17 PM

Amos: "Try it. Stand off a few feet behind your body and decide to feel a whole lot of it. It's faster, easier, more authentic and better-quality sensation than you will ever get filtering it through an invisible playmate"

As for an 'invisible playmate' I'd watch the one that's behind your shoulder right now....

Subject: RE: BS: Why should anyone believe in 'God'?
From: LukeKellylives (Chris)
Date: 26 Apr 07 - 05:34 PM

Amos, the mind cannot produce conscious thought after it dies. It's not possible. Yes, you could produce conscious thought NOW if there isn't a God, but not after you die.

Either you misunderstood my point, or you mean something entirely different than what I perceived.

Subject: RE: BS: Why should anyone believe in 'God'?
From: Bill D
Date: 26 Apr 07 - 06:54 PM

I believe Amos has some interesting ideas about conciousness and mind and where they ultimately reside. I have debated with him, just as I debate with you. *smile*...

I'm kind of a 'equal opportunity' skeptic