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BS: Why should anyone believe in 'God'?
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Subject: RE: BS: Why should anyone believe in 'God'? From: Amos Date: 26 Apr 07 - 08:40 PM Luke: If you believe of yourself that you are no more than a bag of electrolytes and meat, then your statement would make sense. Most individuals consist of a body, a mind with a whole array of components in it, and the basic spiritual being who is the individual himself. Identifying with the machine is the first error. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why should anyone believe in 'God'? From: Ebbie Date: 27 Apr 07 - 12:01 AM By the way, Amso, this is an elegant sentence: I was speaking about your capabilities, not your practices. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why should anyone believe in 'God'? From: Mrrzy Date: 27 Apr 07 - 12:51 PM Wes - the thing is, one can get help from people no matter who inspires them. If they believe they were inspired by something supernatural, that doesn't make it true... maybe they are just nice people. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why should anyone believe in 'God'? From: Wesley S Date: 27 Apr 07 - 01:14 PM But I'm curious how far some athiests / nonthiests carry their viewpoint. Would you for instance refuse a Christmas present because it was associated with a Christian holiday? Thanksgiving can be thought to be a Christian holiday too as it's observed in this country. Why have a Thanksgiving dinner if there's no one to thank? And Easter is out of the question. And if the roof is torn off of your house by a storm - why accept assistance from the Baptist Mens relief group or Methodist assistance if they are wrongly motivated? Wouldn't it be better to wait for an unaffiliated group - like FEMA? I'm serious about my questions by the way. I have no interest in converting you or anyone else for that matter. I'm just wondering how far you carry out your beliefs/nonbeliefs. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why should anyone believe in 'God'? From: Stringsinger Date: 27 Apr 07 - 04:38 PM Hi Wesley, I think if you are sincere your question deserves a response. I'm not sure Christmas is necessarilly a Christian holiday since there are many Pagan aspects to it. Santa Claus is not found in the bible. The yule log is not associated with religion. It stems from the holiday of the Winter Soltice. Thanksgiving is a peculiar holiday in that it seems centered around stuffing your stomach. I'm not sure it was celebrating Native Americans that much. Easter is not originally a Christian holiday. Astarte or Ishtar were Pagan gods from which the name Easter derives. No bunnies or eggs in the bible either. Easter, like Christmas, was appropriated from Pagan holidays such as the Winter Soltice. BTW it has never been established in the myth of Jesus that he really was born on 25 Dec. However, Mithras, the Egytian sun god was supposedly born on that day of a virgin birth. As for accepting help from other humans regardless of what religious institution they belong to, this is fine as long as there are no strings attached as what is done to poor people in the Salivation Army. Relying on FEMA is more like relying on Bush's Christianity. Frank Hamilton |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why should anyone believe in 'God'? From: Wesley S Date: 27 Apr 07 - 04:47 PM But if you celibrate the pagan aspects of a holiday isn't that in conflict with the fact that you don't believe in any sort of higher power? I would think a true athiest/non-believer would treat those days like any other day. Is someone really firm in their beliefs if they accept Christmas presents? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why should anyone believe in 'God'? From: Bill D Date: 27 Apr 07 - 04:58 PM Wesley...I give & receive presents during Christmas season...it can be a celebration of friendship & good will, as well as a religious holiday. I try not to be involved with any 'direct' ceremonies of a primarily religious nature, but if it were awkward to avoid, I'd just be quiet and respectful of THEIR practices. I go to Easter with my wife's relatives. I stand quietly while someone says grace. Since I KNOW I am attending someone else's specifically religious tradition, I honor it and make no comment. But I also attend occasional meetings of an organization whose purpose is related to woodworking and collecting. They 'happen' to have some devout Christians in the hierarchy. It DOES bother me to have meals & business meetings begun with calls for Jesus blessing. They do this despite Jewish and atheist and, sometimes, Hindu and Native American members present. They 'could' simply ask for a moment of silence for everyone to contemplate or pray as they wish, but they insist on their 'right' to appease the majority. THIS attitude is far too common and arrogant. See the difference? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why should anyone believe in 'God'? From: Mrrzy Date: 27 Apr 07 - 05:01 PM Wesley, I enjoy our talks, you know that. Voici answers: Would you for instance refuse a Christmas present because it was associated with a Christian holiday? No, but my children and I celebrate the solstice - it's a real phenomenon. We have kind of developed a human midwinter celebration of light - what we celebrate is that humans are probably the only animals here that know when the shortest day of the year is, and also know that spring will come again. We celebrate this with kith and kin (I've re-written a great carol for the season) ON Christmas because that is when everybody has off. We don't say Merry Christmas, we say Merry Midwinter. And the funny thing is that while my rabid radical jewish nephew still lived at home, this was supported by our extended family. Now that there is nobody RELIGIOUS to support, my mom especially, die-hard atheist that SHE is, refuses to go along with it any more. Thanksgiving can be thought to be a Christian holiday too as it's observed in this country. Why have a Thanksgiving dinner if there's no one to thank? - but there are loads of PEOPLE to thank! And Easter is out of the question. Again, not so - we celebrate the vernal equinox with chocolate, but nothing about the resurrection. All mythologies developed in temperate zones, since they evolved to explain natural phenomena, have a rebirth in the spring celebration. Tropical religions, for instance, don't. And if the roof is torn off of your house by a storm - why accept assistance from the Baptist Mens relief group or Methodist assistance if they are wrongly motivated? Wouldn't it be better to wait for an unaffiliated group - like FEMA? - well, once when I was really broke I went to the City for assistance with my electricity and it wasn't till I went to get the check that I found out that what the City does in those situations is call around to various churches until someone is willing to pay the bill... I felt really, really bad about taking the money then. Really, I almost couldn't. But my kids had no heat, blah blah, sold out, I know, but it was the only way to get public assistance through the City. So I am rationalizing it... and I work against the notion that you have to have religion to have morals. It would never have occurred to me to go to a church myself for help, although I am sure they would have been helpful. And boy, Stringsinger is bang on with his riposte against the FEMA idea! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why should anyone believe in 'God'? From: Mrrzy Date: 27 Apr 07 - 05:12 PM Words to that carol I mentioned: THE MAGNON (based on The Magi as sung by Peter, Paul & Mary on the Holiday cd) New lyrics by Mrrzy, Winter 2002 Ancient humans came from darkness and they spread across the planet They saw the sky above them, and they learned to find their way Out of ignorance and shadow to the hope of human kindness They were strengthened by the knowledge that they gathered every day And all wise folk speak of peace on earth, of harmony and struggle Yet another cycle's gone, and a new one will begin On the darkest day of winter, when we remember Spring will come again On the darkest day of winter, we cherish light with green and kith and kin... Well now, each of us must travel, yes we all must make a journey It seems that time is telling us to use all we can know To help lift up the fallen we must sow the seeds of goodness The torch has passed among us now to light the way to go For our hearts are as a chalice, and our dreams are of the sunlight They burn away the darkness as we kiss 'neath mistletoe Unlike eagles, flying higher, unlike rivers down their canyons When diamond stars shine down on us, we know whereof they glow... And the wise still speak of peace on earth, of harmony and struggle Yet another cycle's gone, and a new one will begin On the darkest day of winter, when we recall that the Spring will come again On the darkest day of winter, we cherish light with green and kith and kin... On the darkest day of winter, when we recall that the Spring will come again On the darkest day of winter, we cherish light with green and kith and kin... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why should anyone believe in 'God'? From: Wesley S Date: 27 Apr 07 - 05:24 PM I would think it would be very difficult to sit by during the Christmas season and not say something while everyone is wishing you a Merry Christmas. Sort of like being silent while a room of people say - Hey - that George W Bush - isn't he the best darn president we've ever had? I admit - there are a lot of believers that talk the talk and don't walk the walk. But I see the same thing happening with non-believers too. It's part of the human condition regardless of which side of the fence you're on. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why should anyone believe in 'God'? From: Ebbie Date: 27 Apr 07 - 05:29 PM The Mass of the Christ- doesn't sound at all religious to me. *g* One of my brothers and his family never observed Christmas either, although my sister in law made a point each December of bringing home little gifts for her three kids, so that they could brag about them to their friends. Now that they're grown, every one of them celebrates Christmas. I don't know. I'm not big on Christmas either, although I love the steamy warmth in a snug house as family gathers 'round, especially when they (we) make music. As far as gifts are concerned I am far more in favor of spur of the moment gifts all year. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why should anyone believe in 'God'? From: Stringsinger Date: 27 Apr 07 - 05:37 PM Wesley, If you accept a Christmas present, this doesn't mean that you think that the holiday of Christmas has anything to do with a higher power. I treat Christmas like any other day pretty much. If someone says to me, "god bless you" I don't respond with anger but recognize where they are at in their belief system without condemning them for it. But I don't believe in being discourteous to those that like the Christmas holiday. Again, I recognize Christmas as more of a cultural event then having any religious significance. I see that the idea of giving at Christmas has become so commercialized as to negate it's intent by those that celebrate it. I celebrate Halloween but I am not a devil-worshipper. To recognize a cultural event such as a holiday is not to give to it any religious meaning whatever. Frank Hamilton |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why should anyone believe in 'God'? From: Stringsinger Date: 27 Apr 07 - 05:44 PM Wesley, I have been in a room of people that like Bush and have said pretty much the same thing in the example you pointed out. I see no need to try to be beligerent and force my ideas on them. This would be an exercise in futility. "Walking the walk" doesn't mean that you have to incurr violence on the part of others who would be deeply offended it you didn't agree with them. You forget that many atheists have been severely attacked for their views and that most parents would rather their sons and daughters to marry a homosexual or a lesbian than an atheist. The only true "walking the walk" is to deal with reason rather than superstition, logic rather than violence, science in the face of religious ignorance and to respect those who may have different views as long as they don't harm others. Frank Hamilton |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why should anyone believe in 'God'? From: GUEST,Ricky Date: 27 Apr 07 - 05:45 PM "Chestnuts roasting on an open fire; Jack frost nipping at your nose... That's what Christmas is all about - burnt nuts and frostbite." The late, great Rikki Fulton. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why should anyone believe in 'God'? From: Stringsinger Date: 27 Apr 07 - 05:51 PM Wesley, I continue this discussion because I believe you are sincere. Whenever people want to help each other, this in my view has little to do with religious "morality" but more basic human kindness. I can't expect everyone to agree with me but I will never criticize those who help others who are in need provided there is no coercive religious agenda attached to it. My view is that people can believe in unicorns or teapots in the sky but as long as they behave ethically toward others, they have my support. Frank Hamilton |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why should anyone believe in 'God'? From: Mrrzy Date: 28 Apr 07 - 09:52 AM Actually, what with all the PC stuff running around, I usually get Happy Holidays anyway. And that is why I've invented a real holiday with real celebration - why should the believers have all the parties? It's akin to the movement I've seen lately of having something like b'nai mitzvahs for non-jewish teenagers. I like to call it a Not Mitzvah. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why should anyone believe in 'God'? From: *daylia* Date: 28 Apr 07 - 10:22 AM lol Frank, and all the more Power to the Great Teapot in the Sky! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why should anyone believe in 'God'? From: *daylia* Date: 28 Apr 07 - 10:26 AM wow! speak o'the ... ;-) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why should anyone believe in 'God'? From: Kipp Date: 28 Apr 07 - 10:46 AM Just because a person does not believe it not to be so that there is no God Does not not make it some just as well as there is no way to prove that ther is no God it just the same to say No one can not prove that there is no god. But I would rather put my lot with those that believe there is rather than those that say there is not. if only for the benifits that I recieve. And one for me is that there is some greater than mankind that is in controll of the universe and that order is the norm not some scientific princeipals that man in his limited perspective has come up with that wil not be in fashion fifty years from now |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why should anyone believe in 'God'? From: Mrrzy Date: 28 Apr 07 - 05:26 PM No one can not prove there is not no god? I think you meant only one of those negatives. No one can prove there is no flying spaghetti monster, either. It's not a sensible statement from an empirical point of view. The benefits of belief to the individual believer are far outweighed by the drawbacks to the community of *blind* belief. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why should anyone believe in 'God'? From: Riginslinger Date: 29 Apr 07 - 09:43 AM "The benefits of belief to the individual believer are far outweighed by the drawbacks to the community of *blind* belief." Great goD almighty! Amen to that, brother. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why should anyone believe in 'God'? From: GUEST,Des Pair Date: 30 Apr 07 - 07:41 AM VANITY VANITY VANITY. Slag, you hit the nail on the head. I am HUMAN. I am SUPERIOR(to all other living species). MY SUPERIOR BRAIN must exist for all eternity. Therefore, GOD must exist in order to provide HEAVEN for ME. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why should anyone believe in 'God'? From: *daylia* Date: 30 Apr 07 - 09:35 AM How bout - I must exist in order to provide a human expression of God? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why should anyone believe in 'God'? From: GUEST,Mark Twain Date: 30 Apr 07 - 09:59 AM I believe that our Heavenly Father invented man because he was disappointed in the monkey. I believe that whenever a human being, of even the highest intelligence and culture, delivers, an opinion upon a matter apart from his particular and especial line of interest, training and experience, it will always be an opinion so foolish and so valueless a sort that it can be depended upon to suggest to our Heavenly Father that the human being is another disappointment and that he is no considerable improvement upon the monkey. - Mark Twain (Samuel Langhorn Clements) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why should anyone believe in 'God'? From: Stringsinger Date: 30 Apr 07 - 02:53 PM Hi Daylia, The Great Teapot in the Sky was posited by the late Bertrand Russell who said that if there were a teapot orbiting around the earth somewhere in the sky, you couldn't disprove that it wasn't there. Dawkins said the same for The Flying Spaghetti Monster. Little children still believe in Santa Claus although they probably envision him as drawn from the famous Coca-cola ads. He looks a little like Michelangelo's pointing-finger god. The argument for god comes from I think Acquinas who said that if you can't disprove in a god, he must be there. The rebuttal is always if you can't disprove that he isn't there, he must not be there. I do believe that the star cluster known as Sagitarius is there, however. I trust astronomers over theologians. Frank |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why should anyone believe in 'God'? From: GUEST,God Date: 30 Apr 07 - 03:07 PM My son went into a hotel a couple of weekends ago. He walked up to the desk, put three nails on the counter and said 'Can you put me up for Easter?' |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why should anyone believe in 'God'? From: Wesley S Date: 30 Apr 07 - 03:44 PM Frank – If I remember correctly on a recent thread you made a comment along the lines of "intelligent conversation" with people who have religious beliefs was impossible. You've also called religion superstition and ignorance. Yet you have also made comments that would lead me to believe that you think of yourself as a tolerant person. And that you would want and expect tolerance from people who do believe in some sort of higher power. Do you see any conflict in this? One thing that concerns me about the religious intolerance here at the Mudcat is that people are being lumped together in groups that just don't fit. Not all people of religious faith think alike. I'm as different from Pat Robertson as night and day. FYI – It's been years since I burned an atheist at the stake. And I had no part in the Spanish Inquisition. I could be wrong – but it seems like a lot of the folksingers of the Mudcat are extremely tolerant of everything – except Christianity. I hope I'm mistaken. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why should anyone believe in 'God'? From: Mrrzy Date: 30 Apr 07 - 05:28 PM Wesley, it isn't just Christianity, and it isn't just the Mudcat. There are people who think, and I am among them, that the we no longer have the luxury of tolerating views that mythology and superstition are facts in reality. The actual harm done by some who insist their mythology be treated as fact outweighs the possible benefit to other believers by so much, it has gone beyond the tolerable. Recap: *Faith in this context is defined as belief in the absence of empirical evidence. We aren't talking about having faith in yourself or other usages. *Belief in the supernatural takes faith; there are no empirical data supporting supernatural explanations of phenomena. *Supernatural individual causation of natural phenomena would have had to have been invented by the developing human mind as our intelligence evolved. *In the absence of information, once our intelligence did evolve, we would have developed a mythology explaining how our supernatural creation(s) accomplished all observable phenomena. *Now, there *is* information, and there are empirical data, and these have natural expla nations that contradict, or make unnecessary, supernatural explanations. *Nonetheless, believers in certain mythologies insist that they are not superstitious but have rational reasons to believe what they do. (They are mistaken.) *Until now, politeness has dictated that such insistence be tolerated. *Now, it's too expensive to tolerate such insistence, especially in the Middle East and Southern USA. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why should anyone believe in 'God'? From: GUEST Date: 30 Apr 07 - 05:33 PM Bloody well said, Mrrzy |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why should anyone believe in 'God'? From: Ebbie Date: 30 Apr 07 - 05:44 PM Uh oh. I don't agree at all, Mrrzy. If an attitude like that came into power can you imagine what would happen? You would have people hiding in the catacombs, people in fear of their lives and freedom, people whose churches, synagogues, temples and mosques are burnt or turned into theatres. That is NOT a world I want to live in. Why on earth do you persist in insisting that everyone believe as you do? A little humility is in order. Keep in mind that even though it is a fact that we don't have all the answers, neither do you. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why should anyone believe in 'God'? From: Wesley S Date: 30 Apr 07 - 06:01 PM Mrrzy - How do you plan to accomplish your goals? What action do you plan to take? Because it sounds like you've crossed over from " I should be allowed to believe what I want" to a more strident "I don't like what you believe and you shouldn't be allowed to think that way". If I'm wrong please clarify. I'm not sure of the exact number but somewhere over 70% of the worlds population believe in a higher power of some sort. So if you want to eliminate religion you've got your work cut out for you. I won't force you to go to church this Sunday. All I expect is that no one will try to stop me if I go. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why should anyone believe in 'God'? From: Mrrzy Date: 30 Apr 07 - 06:05 PM Ebbie, you are going into something I didn't say. Where is what I'm saying advicating the violent overthrow of religion? All I'm saying is, you can believe in fairy tales if you want, but you have to accept the reality that they ARE fairy tales. You don't get to teach them as science in the schools. You don't get to have people who think it's silly afraid to laugh because it might be disrespectful. I don't claim to have all the answers. But the real world, as explored through science, is actually the real world, and mythology, no matter how venerated the source, is not history, nor does it provide a reasonable explanation of natural phenomena. And again, the harm actually done by some believers far outweighs the possible benefits of faith to other believers. If it weren't for the harm, the need to stop tolerating this silliness would not be so great. But the need is there. Doesn't mean you get to be violent. But you can laugh, and it should be OK. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why should anyone believe in 'God'? From: Amos Date: 30 Apr 07 - 06:17 PM I concur there should be no harm or foul in disbeliving any proposition that you canot find evidence for. Whether you laugh at such or not is a matter of manners, not law. But it has always been aprimary rule of law in these parts, whether honored or not, that any individual within these shores has complete freedom to choose the "imaginary universe" that suits im or her best. That principle should never be abandoned, even if hard-core material science cannot find a good reason for it. If the matter of gods, spirits and other things of a religious ilk cannot be left entirely out of the hustings, then there will be a serious problem. Hardcore anti-evolutionists and similar extremists in the US have already drawn up battle lines and strategems in some quarters, preferring to fall on the baricades of necessary than to allow any flexibility or tolerance in their religious views. The debacle of the Scopes trial and its sappy re-run in Dover, PA are examples. Science and law must be preserved as territories where religion has no voice except in the neutrality thereto. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why should anyone believe in 'God'? From: Ebbie Date: 30 Apr 07 - 07:13 PM "There are people who think, and I am among them, that the we no longer have the luxury of tolerating views that mythology and superstition are facts in reality." |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why should anyone believe in 'God'? From: Amos Date: 30 Apr 07 - 07:33 PM I suspect, Ebb and Mrzzy, that this is a far slipperier slope than it seems to be at first glance. The reason is that just as there are those who go overboard in assertions of spiritualism, so there are those who go toa materialistic extreme. I, too, find these mocked-up cosmologies annoying when they are injected uninvited into the commons of ordinary physical transactions. But asserting that we cannot afford the luxury of tolerating imagination about the universe is inviting an awful darkness, no matter how well-intended. It is not a luxury, but a compelling necessity, that individuals in society be free to dream and imagine unconstrained. All of our greatest voices drew from that well, and the fact that some idiots also do does not serve as reason to fill it in with dirt. What we should never abide is the notion that any crime can be justified on religious grounds. Or, for that matter, any civic tort such as burning chickens in your driveway. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why should anyone believe in 'God'? From: GUEST,.gargoyle Date: 30 Apr 07 - 08:14 PM AKA Clockwork
Read St. Thomas Aquinas
Even the primitives were/are aware - for in the skys His majesty they see.
Draw a diagram...or set a light in a room and walk around with another soul.
Pretend one is the earth, one is the sun, and one is the MOON
Answer the question: Why in 7000 years do we ALWAYS see the same face? Common chaos would dictate that its revolution would alter, just a mite....a farthing of faggot's fart wind, say yearly a 10th of a ONE degree in a 360 circle (1/3,600) and there would have been two recordable revolutions in mankind's history.
Why should you exist? A single minor chemical (of several thousand) imbalances and you are no more.
He IS there - ask, seek, ye shall find.
Sincerely, |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why should anyone believe in 'God'? From: Mrrzy Date: 30 Apr 07 - 09:40 PM Mrrzy - How do you plan to accomplish your goals? - what do you see my goals as being, Wesley? All I want is for atheism to be as viable an alternative as any faith. I think it's the only reasonable view of the natural world, and it's certainly the only empirically demonstrable view of the natural world. So why should it have to show, let alone feel, respect for otherwise rational, educated people who discount real data to continue to believe in their mythology? What action do you plan to take? What I do is keep my atheism roughly as visible as others' religion. People wear crosses, yarmulkes, headscarves; I wear a Freedom From Religion pin and, sometimes, a Friendly Neighborhood Atheist t-shirt. I also lobby my school board to get the god songs out of my kids' music classes and to stop using mythological dates as historical. When my kids reach high school age I fully expect to have to battle the creationists. ...it sounds like you've crossed over from " I should be allowed to believe what I want" to a more strident "I don't like what you believe and you shouldn't be allowed to think that way". If I'm wrong please clarify. Well, I do think people should think their faith, or lack thereof, through. I have had, and am still having, long conversations, some spread out of years of friendship, with a few reasonable, educated, intelligent people who described themselves as having faith (as defined in this conversation). What we talk about is their reasons for believing in the supernatural, and my reasons for believing that the natural world in which we live is enough, that there is no need to posit anything else from a reason-based point of view. They have always come to see that their faith is faith-based, not reason-based. That is fine with me. What I will argue against is the notion supernatural explanations are reasonable when natural explanations are simpler, or that there are rational reasons to believe in any mythology or the supernatural. I won't fight it, I'm still a pacifist ;). I do believe in freedom of religion. I don't believe in freedom of ignorance. Note that I agree with whoever it was who said there shouldn't even BE a word "atheist" (what is the word for people who don't believe in unicorns, he asked?)... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why should anyone believe in 'God'? From: Mrrzy Date: 30 Apr 07 - 10:06 PM Oh, and the Christians taken together are the only faith to outnumber the atheists/agnostics/people of no religion - so there is hope! (Numbers gotten off the Internet - lots of places)
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Subject: RE: BS: Why should anyone believe in 'God'? From: Amos Date: 30 Apr 07 - 10:32 PM LOL!! An "a-uni-cornist", I guess! Great line. I applaud your desire to combat the freedom of ignorance, at every turn. My Gawd, what the hell are we trying to do as a species if not overcome ignorance and acheive knowledge and ways to turn it to the good? A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why should anyone believe in 'God'? From: *daylia* Date: 01 May 07 - 05:59 AM I do believe that the star cluster known as Sagitarius is there, however. I trust astronomers over theologians. Frank, I know that the constellation known as Sagitarrius is up there too, along with Aries, Taurus, Orion etc etc. And I don't need to trust astromers, theologians or anyone else about it. All I have to do is look up. daylia |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why should anyone believe in 'God'? From: *daylia* Date: 01 May 07 - 06:28 AM Y'know, maybe one of us could actually spell it right. S-a-g-i-t-t-a-r-i-u-s. There. daylia |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why should anyone believe in 'God'? From: Bill D Date: 01 May 07 - 11:48 AM I was looking for a page on logic to illustrate various forms of fallacious reasoning for another topic...I found this one. It just happened to be part of a site where atheisim is explained. It is interesting because they formulate most of their explanations of logic using the most common issues that come up when debating religion. No one disproves religion there, but they do show clearly why one cannot prove religion, either. Most common arguments for belief in a god are discussed, along with the reasons many people reject those beliefs. It may not change your mind...but it may help you understand why you get some 'sharp' responses to religious claims. (It includes one of my personal 'hot buttons'....the claim that atheism is "just another belief".) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why should anyone believe in 'God'? From: Amos Date: 01 May 07 - 12:18 PM I am particularly fond of this form of illogic: "A sweeping generalization occurs when a general rule is applied to a particular situation, but the features of that particular situation mean the rule is inapplicable. It's the error made when you go from the general to the specific. For example: "Christians generally dislike atheists. You are a Christian, so you must dislike atheists." This fallacy is often committed by people who try to decide moral and legal questions by mechanically applying general rules." (From Bill's link above). For an interesting study in how this kind of "reaosning by blind association" can work to the detriment of a society, I recommend the recent book Monkey Girl by Edward Humes, a close study of collisions between evolution theory and "intelligent design"/creationist beliefs in regional politics. A A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why should anyone believe in 'God'? From: Amos Date: 01 May 07 - 03:07 PM Excerpts from Christopher Hitchens' new book, God Is Not Great: How Religion Poisons Everything can be found here in Slate. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why should anyone believe in 'God'? From: M.Ted Date: 01 May 07 - 04:02 PM The are a lot of tedious and unimaginative persons in the world, and they seem bent on crushing the sense of wonder out of everyone that shows a glimmer of creativity. The religious ones can rot in Hell. The atheist ones can just rot in the ground. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why should anyone believe in 'God'? From: Bill D Date: 01 May 07 - 04:39 PM You wouldn't have a specific example in mind, would you, M.Ted? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why should anyone believe in 'God'? From: Amos Date: 01 May 07 - 04:47 PM Suppression of creativity is a common denominator to those who themselves are beaten down into the edges of insanity, who spend their lives in anger, fear, terror, sorrow, and rampant apathy. Such people cannot manage ordinary communication lines well (cf. our history of them here) and feel terribly threatened when some live spark of creativity shows up in front of them. They react to suppress the creative, artistic, or forward looking because of this fear, Isuppose. This is not meant to describe a generalized negativity -- it is a set of symptoms that include covert or open hostility to free thought and communication. Knowing it occurs is helpful, so it doesn't just boggle your mind when you encounter it, because it seems (and is)profoundly irrational. That's my observation, FWIW. A A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why should anyone believe in 'God'? From: M.Ted Date: 01 May 07 - 04:59 PM My list is too long to post---but it includes a lot of ordained and self-ordained authority figures-- We are each on a journey, and we each must find our own way--anybody that tries force their way instead, well--you get the thought-- |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why should anyone believe in 'God'? From: Mrrzy Date: 01 May 07 - 05:39 PM I know when I'm not being talked about - I'm all for creativity! It's willful ignorance and/or stupidity *I'm* against ;D! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why should anyone believe in 'God'? From: Liz the Squeak Date: 01 May 07 - 05:55 PM 300!! Or is that 200?? LTS |
