BS: When is a sexist not a sexist?

Subject: BS: When is a sexist not a sexist?
From: Mrrzy
Date: 24 Apr 07 - 11:29 PM

Let's say that somebody was mistaken in a fellow-internet user's gender, and upon learning the truth, found that their opinion of that fellow-user was changed by that knowledge.

Is that sexist or not? Does it matter if it revised their opinion up or down?

As an aside, if they suddenly found out someone had a different race than they thought, would it be racist to mention it later in a casual online comment? To bring it back to the thread, is your thinking any different about gender? Why or why not?

Subject: RE: BS: When is a sexist not a sexist?
From: Bee-dubya-ell
Date: 24 Apr 07 - 11:49 PM

I never assume anything about a person's physical appearance until I've met him or her in person. For all I know, Joe Offer is a thirteen year-old Vietnamese-American girl.

Subject: RE: BS: When is a sexist not a sexist?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 25 Apr 07 - 12:07 AM

They are a sexist if they intend so, I would think...that is, if they carry sexist intention. But in the world of any one person's perceptions, another person will be seen as "sexist" if that is what the first person decides to see them as...and not if not. If so, what could they do about it?

And which is the final truth of the matter? Who can say?

How would someone accused of sexism defend him or herself? Perhaps by not defending at all?

What would make anyone here think he or she had the final answer to such a question?

I only speculate. I do not have the final answer.

As Dylan said, "it's blowing in the wind". We can feel the wind, but we cannot catch it.

Subject: RE: BS: When is a sexist not a sexist?
From: heric
Date: 25 Apr 07 - 12:25 AM

I love it when LH is on his game. Perfect answer.

Subject: RE: BS: When is a sexist not a sexist?
From: folk1e
Date: 25 Apr 07 - 03:46 AM

The problem here is one of semantics!
Yes they would be Sexist / Racist ....... but not necessarily in the negative way the words are being used now!
I must state for the record that I am both racist and sexist, in the literal sense, but NOT in the way those words are twisted into in todays society.
I view a person (initialy) by his(her) .... [I was nearly sexixt there].... obvious nationality. this is not a negative thing but an apreciation of difference. If I were to come accros a heavily tatooed Maori I would be interested in them from the point of view of their Maori(ness) (one of the few races to prevail against the imperial might of the English Navy..... but I digress). Upon speaking to them this would be superimposed with my knowledge of them as a person. It would work the same way with almost everyone I meet ..... If I were to break down and see a person wearing a hat and a particular hair style I would assume that they were Jewish and NOT ask for assistance if it were the sabbath! This would be out of respect for their perceived religon on my part! On occasion I will hold a door open for a lady whereas I may not have done so for a man. That IS sexist, but I think it is good manners an d not an affront to the fairer sex (oops there I go again being sexist )
In the same manner I expect to be judged initialy on my apperance by strangers and will fully expect them to be surprised when there innitial view of me as a great hulking fat skinheaded slob (yes I am exagerating here) is replaced by there awareness of me as a caring sensative gentle ....fat hulking skinhead!
To coin a Shatnerism "It's racism Jim ... but not as we know it"

Subject: RE: BS: When is a sexist not a sexist?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 25 Apr 07 - 04:10 AM

OH NO, not this eternal semantics argument again! Why is it necessary to pigeon-hole people, and/or their behaviour? Has nobody got the ability to make up their own mind as to what people's behaviour reflects, on a person by person basis.
WE cannot classify people by the book, please don't assume that for other people to understand what you think they should do/feel it is necessary to write it down in black and white. {Now there's a contentious phrase in some people's eyes!}
Giok

Subject: RE: BS: When is a sexist not a sexist?
From: Megan L
Date: 25 Apr 07 - 04:35 AM

we're aw Jock tamsons bairns.

Subject: RE: BS: When is a sexist not a sexist?
From: bubblyrat
Date: 25 Apr 07 - 04:58 AM

I was brought up in an age where manners and chivalrous behaviour counted for far more than they do today. We were taught at home, and at school, to honour,cherish ,and respect all women,everywhere, and to treat them accordingly. One would stand aside on the pavement (sidewalk) to allow a lady to pass---Open doors for ladies, and always allow them to enter first---stand up if a woman entered the room--stand up and offer one"s seat, on a crowded bus or train, to a female, especially one who was elderly,or pregnant---walk on the outside of one"s female companion on the pavement (sidewalk)-----And, of course,take appropriate measures if a lady was verbally or physically harrassed or assaulted by a male !!! If that was Sexist, or patronising, then Yes!! We were all as guilty as Hell, but I think most women preferred our behaviour then, to the selfish and predatory way in which they are treated today !! But the "Feminists " ( and how un-feminine most of them are !! ) have a lot to answer for, I think.

    Love to ( most of ) you Ladies,
            Politically incorrect, old-fashioned,Sexist Roger XXX

Subject: RE: BS: When is a sexist not a sexist?
From: Bee
Date: 25 Apr 07 - 07:10 AM

Oh, now, Roger! I think it's really unfortunate when people conflate good manners with sexism. Personally, I hold doors open for anyone who is infirm, elderly, burdened with parcels, or just happens to be entering the door behind me. I also will give up my seat to anyone who looks like they need it more than I do (although the first time a young fella offered me his seat, I felt a little dismayed - so much for that anti-aging cream!).

And you finish off with an insult to all feminists, no doubt because you've heard media yelpings about some extreme feminists or some word botherers, whereas the vast majority of us old feminists just wanted things like equal pay, equal access to jobs, and equal access to the same services and opportunities our brothers already had.

Perhaps this one rather frivolous item will help you understand: until 1972, no matter how thirsty, hot and dusty I might be, I was not legally permitted to enter a tavern for a cold beer. In a city reknowned for its many taverns, only two establishments offered a 'Ladies Beverage Room', which could be entered by ladies only if they were escorted by a man.

Subject: RE: BS: When is a sexist not a sexist?
From: guitar
Date: 25 Apr 07 - 09:18 AM

pardon I can only understand English

Subject: RE: BS: When is a sexist not a sexist?
From: Mrrzy
Date: 25 Apr 07 - 09:20 AM

Giok - excellent point. The question came up, though...

Subject: RE: BS: When is a sexist not a sexist?
From: Amos
Date: 25 Apr 07 - 10:32 AM

Given the centuries through which the puzzle of understanding men has been wrestled with by women, and the puzzle of understanding women wrestled with by men, it seems to me inevitable that some assumptions about another person will be based on gender. Why else would a book like Men are from Mars, Women are from Venus become a best seller?

But It hink as mentioned above you have to be really clear about the difference between categories as a shortcut (benign pigeonholing) and categories as grounds for oppression, belittling, or taking advantage. Both could be called sexism, because gender is used as a differentiator. But it IS a differentiator. The differences are many and complex and it is a necessary convenience. Malign pigeonholing, on the other hand, is a shallow rationalization for bad conduct. As LH says, the intent makes all the difference.

I also think it is an issue that can be over-dramatized.

A

Subject: RE: BS: When is a sexist not a sexist?
From: Mrrzy
Date: 25 Apr 07 - 11:25 AM

Sure - and being, say, heterosexual, isn't seen as sexist even if you would never consider sleeping with someone of another gender than your usual.

Subject: RE: BS: When is a sexist not a sexist?
From: Amos
Date: 25 Apr 07 - 11:39 AM

Hmmm.... I never thought of that!! Maybe male homosexuals are actually sexist chauvinist pigs!! :D Don't quote me on that!! LOL!!!



A

Subject: RE: BS: When is a sexist not a sexist?
From: bubblyrat
Date: 25 Apr 07 - 12:17 PM

The word " Gender " relates to English Grammar, not people . People have, or belong to, a "sex" . Unless it"s different in the USA !! Anyway, " BEE " I am truly sorry if I have offended you , or any of your "sisters " -----It"s just that here in England , a "feminist" is usually a man-hating lesbian who wants all males to have their nuts chopped off at birth !! In fact, they are often more "Macho" than we English men are !! I fully agree that women should have the same "rights " as men when it comes to jobs, pay,career, promotion, etc., but I do NOT want to find myself in a situation where I have to say to a WOMAN ---" OK ! It"s your turn to crawl out there on your stomach, to the trenches of the Taliban rebels, and slit their throats, even though I realise that you are three months pregnant, and if you are captured ,you will be raped and tortured to death, but HEY !! That"s OK, because look !! --We"re all equal now !! "
   Is that the world you want to live in, Bee ??? I don"t !!

Subject: RE: BS: When is a sexist not a sexist?
From: GUEST,meself
Date: 25 Apr 07 - 01:14 PM

I'm afraid the "gender" vs. "sex" battle has been lost, bubbly - or won, depending on your perspective - at least, in N. Am.

Subject: RE: BS: When is a sexist not a sexist?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 25 Apr 07 - 01:15 PM

Then there are the Earthlings who refuse to even consider having sexual relations with friendly aliens...merely on the basis of their own extreme planetary and/or species prejudice. Disgusting sexism!    This planet and its people have a lot to answer for... ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: When is a sexist not a sexist?
From: Mrrzy
Date: 25 Apr 07 - 01:17 PM

Gender in the US means male/straight, male/gay, female.straight, female/gay, asexual, bisexual, or pansexual. not just male or female. yes, we borrowed the word from grammar but gender actually means "type" as in genre.
And why not send the woman in if she's volunteered to be in your army? It's her right to do so if she wishes. I wouldn't volunteer, and neither would my sons, but it's out of pacifism, not about sex.

Subject: RE: BS: When is a sexist not a sexist?
From: Amos
Date: 25 Apr 07 - 01:17 PM

But, unfortunately, no-one to answer to.



A

Subject: RE: BS: When is a sexist not a sexist?
From: GUEST,meself
Date: 25 Apr 07 - 01:21 PM

I've never heard of the meaning of "gender" having anything to do with "sexual orientation".

But then, I live pretty far from the road.

Subject: RE: BS: When is a sexist not a sexist?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 25 Apr 07 - 02:14 PM

Yeah...just you wait, Amos. I pray every day for "the landings" to begin. ;-) We need regime change here in the worst way.

Subject: RE: BS: When is a sexist not a sexist?
From: Bee
Date: 25 Apr 07 - 02:23 PM

"-----It"s just that here in England , a "feminist" is usually a man-hating lesbian who wants all males to have their nuts chopped off at birth !! In fact, they are often more "Macho" than we English men are !!" - bubblyrat

It seems you not only live in a different country, but in a different world than I do. Very few of the women I know are not feminists, almost all will certainly state firmly that they are feminists, a few of them are lesbians, but I don't know a single one who fits your hateful description.

Personally, I no more would want to send a man into a war zone than a woman. By what notion of equality do you think it is alright for a 20 year old boy to be tortured, wounded or killed, but not a 20 year old woman? Both options are equally evil.

Subject: RE: BS: When is a sexist not a sexist?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 25 Apr 07 - 02:24 PM

That's for sure.

Subject: RE: BS: When is a sexist not a sexist?
From: Grab
Date: 26 Apr 07 - 08:07 AM

Re the original post, I think it should only affect your opinion if the person concerned was claiming experience that they don't have. That'd affect your opinion of them because they'd be lying.

I do NOT want to find myself in a situation where I have to say to a WOMAN ---" OK ! It"s your turn to crawl out there on your stomach, to the trenches of the Taliban rebels, and slit their throats, even though I realise that you are three months pregnant, and if you are captured ,you will be raped and tortured to death, but HEY !! That"s OK, because look !! --We"re all equal now !! "

If a woman chooses to do that job and has the skills to do it, you *should* be saying that. Hence I find all this stuff focussing on poor little Fay Turney to be very disrespectful to the other sailors who were in an equally bad situation, ie. being scared they would be tortured and murdered. Men are equally vulnerable to sexual abuse and rape.

Equally I was disgusted to find the other day that there are still three Cambridge colleges which are only open to women. The fact of the last men-only Cambridge college being opened to women is held up as some kind of triumph of equality, when the women-only colleges are quite happy to keep up their sexist admission policy. I also find it cynically amusing that in all the graduation photos for physiotherapy at the local hospital, covering about 20 years and hundreds of people, I wouldn't need both hands to count the men; whilst a shortage of female engineers is reported nationally as a tragic condemnation of teaching.

I'd be happy to say I'm a feminist, in that I want to see equal treatment of women. But I'd also say that there are too many "feminists" who aren't - they want all the advantages that men previously enjoyed, but they don't want any of the disadvantages that went with it, and they don't want to give up the advantages that they're used to as women.

The whole "jobs-versus-children" question, for example. Most countries still discriminate against men in only allowing a few weeks paternity leave (unpaid, of course) where a woman has a statutory right to paid maternity leave. And most cultures (including the US and UK) still discriminate against men looking after children. Judges routinely award custody to mothers, even if the mother has been abusive or has left the children without a word. I've seen several newspaper articles written by men who look after children, describing routine sexism from women in kindergartens and schools. And there are *still* sitcoms being made about househusbands, which is the sexist equivalent of having a black man doing monkey impressions and going "ooga-booga" while the whites laugh at the dumb nigger. We're thankfully past that with racism; it would be nice if people could get past it with sexism too.

Graham.

Subject: RE: BS: When is a sexist not a sexist?
From: Bee
Date: 26 Apr 07 - 08:26 AM

Strides are being made in that direction, Graham, at least in Canada, where parents can choose which one takes maternity leave to care for their infant. In thirty years of childcare I saw initially no men as primary caregivers, then by the end they were a minority, but pretty common. They got nothing but support from us auxiliary caregivers.

Getting men to work in childcare was very difficult. We tried, as it is preferable for children to have male role models as well as females, but inevitably, men who worked with children would leave at the first opportunity, because of the low pay and high stress. They could go hammer nails or dig ditches and be better paid.

In Nova Scotia, there is only one 'women's' college, and it has been open to men for a couple decades.

Subject: RE: BS: When is a sexist not a sexist?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 26 Apr 07 - 08:28 AM

"I was brought up in an age where manners and chivalrous behaviour counted for far more than they do today. We were taught at home, and at school, to honour,cherish ,and respect all women,everywhere, and to treat them accordingly. One would stand aside on the pavement (sidewalk) to allow a lady to pass---Open doors for ladies, and always allow them to enter first---stand up if a woman entered the room--stand up and offer one"s seat, on a crowded bus or train, to a female, especially one who was elderly,or pregnant---walk on the outside of one"s female companion on the pavement (sidewalk)-----And, of course,take appropriate measures if a lady was verbally or physically harrassed or assaulted by a male !!! If that was Sexist, or patronising, then Yes!! We were all as guilty as Hell, but I think most women preferred our behaviour then, to the selfish and predatory way in which they are treated today !! But the "Feminists " ( and how un-feminine most of them are !! ) have a lot to answer for, I think.

    Love to ( most of ) you Ladies,
            Politically incorrect, old-fashioned,Sexist Roger XXX "

Perfect in every detail, Roger. How did you know the way I was brought up?

Seriously tho', how did this way of behaving become so unacceptable to women? What is wrong with having the respect, and admiration of 50% (give or take a few) of the human race?

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: When is a sexist not a sexist?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 26 Apr 07 - 08:40 AM

"but I think most women preferred our behaviour then, to the selfish and predatory way in which they are treated today !! But the "Feminists " ( and how un-feminine most of them are !! ) have a lot to answer for, I think"

On re-reading, I would, I think disagree with this part, because it is out of date.

Those were indeed the most prominent images of Womens' Lib in the seventies, but those militants have largely faded from the scene.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: When is a sexist not a sexist?
From: Bee
Date: 26 Apr 07 - 09:32 AM

Most of us women, Don, hope that we still have men's respect, and we also respect most men. This harking back to a code of manners, which in many cases is still in existence, just avoids remembering the real and life affecting issues that feminists, especially back in the seventies, were actually concerned about.

Along with the 'code of respect', there were the men who catcalled at women walking alone, the extreme difficulty in prosecuting rapists if you weren't a veritable pillar of respectability, the denial of jobs, the inequality of pay, the stigmatization of single mothers, the firing of pregnant women (married or not) as soon as a pregnancy was visible, the 'rule of thumb' regarding how big a stick you could beat your wife with, the banks refusing to give women loans, a medical establishment that would not issue birth control to even a married woman without her husband's consent...

Does anyone want those days back? I don't. I find most men are still polite to me, and I am polite to them. They hold doors, I hold doors; they offer seats to people who need them more, so do I. It is the courtesy of equality. If you occasionally meet a woman who is waspish about common courtesy, then she is an ignorant woman, and she is not an informed feminist.

Subject: RE: BS: When is a sexist not a sexist?
From: Amos
Date: 26 Apr 07 - 09:54 AM

Ah, well said, Ms. Bee.

Equality is hard to maintain in the face of vehement assertions of victimization beyond the scope of rationality and justice. It's a meeting ground, not a boxing ring. All the wrongs you cite are genuine, but the smartest thing to say about them is just what you say above. Let's not have those days back.

This whole notion of making chattel out of members of your own kind is, in my view, a perversion and a deep aberration. Anyone looking to for that sort of obsessive control would be better off exercising it on his own mind and body, rather than someone else's.

A

Subject: RE: BS: When is a sexist not a sexist?
From: Mrrzy
Date: 26 Apr 07 - 01:36 PM

I am reminded of the Tshirt about The woman who strives to be equal to a man lacks ambition... (that's supposed to be funny)

Subject: RE: BS: When is a sexist not a sexist?
From: GUEST,meself
Date: 26 Apr 07 - 02:06 PM

"All the wrongs you cite are genuine"

Wiki says: "The first known usage of the phrase "rule of thumb" in direct reference to domestic violence was in 1976, in the book Battered Wives by Del Martin."

One Andy Kelly, a UCLA prof. who apparently wrote an article on the subject for the Journal of Legal Education in 1994, says on WMSTN-L (blue clicky
):

"As far as I have seen, "rule of thumb" was first associated with
wife-beating by Del Martin in 1976, but she was being whimsical (a
point that Sommers fails to make). It was seriously associated with
wife-beating by Terry Davidson in 1977, completely without
historical foundatio; and authors who cited Davidson jumped to the
conclusion that the alleged common law of rule of thumb gave rise to
the expression (N.B. I would be grateful if anyone can find
earlier associations of "rule of thumb" with wife-beating)."

Subject: RE: BS: When is a sexist not a sexist?
From: Bee
Date: 26 Apr 07 - 02:08 PM

Well, there are plenty of ignorant T-shirts out there.

And there is still work to be done in recognising women as men's equals, especially in third world and developing countries, where as often as not women are vastly undervalued and often cruelly abused.

In the relatively comfortable West, mostly it is a matter of steady plodding, getting more women to work as politicians, improving child and elder care, encouraging men to enter professions once ghettoized as 'women's work' such as child care and nursing. Personally I very much admire men who enter such professions, as they have opted for stressful, not always well paid jobs, and are looked at askance by some of their peers.

Subject: RE: BS: When is a sexist not a sexist?
From: grumpy al
Date: 26 Apr 07 - 02:26 PM

When He's a She

Subject: RE: BS: When is a sexist not a sexist?
From: GUEST,meself
Date: 26 Apr 07 - 02:40 PM

Now, al, you're being grumpy again!

Subject: RE: BS: When is a sexist not a sexist?
From: Ebbie
Date: 26 Apr 07 - 02:58 PM

Thanks, Bee. Those were the points I was going to make. 'Back in the day' when women were venerated and cherished and protected was also the day when they were without recourse agaisnt abuse. Not to mention that the women who were not of the class(es) that men venerated and cherished were not protected.

Subject: RE: BS: When is a sexist not a sexist?
From: Bee
Date: 26 Apr 07 - 03:06 PM

meself, you may be right about the 'rule of thumb' phrase origin, although '76 seems very late. There was considerable uproar in the feminist community in Halifax, early seventies, because of domestic violence laws at the time, but I cannot remember details and can't find them with a quick search.

Subject: RE: BS: When is a sexist not a sexist?
From: Jean(eanjay)
Date: 26 Apr 07 - 03:23 PM

I'm one of these people who always has a visual idea of somebody and I'm usually totally wrong. It shouldn't change a person's view but it sometimes does and that's often based on something the person may have said or done that may seem appropriate coming from one "gender" rather than the other.

It's like these authors who take a different name.

I absolutely love having the door opened for me etc.

I have wondered about the women at Wimbledon getting equal pay to the men when the men are expected to go to 5 sets, if necessary, and the maximum for the women is 3.

Subject: RE: BS: When is a sexist not a sexist?
From: Mrrzy
Date: 26 Apr 07 - 03:59 PM

I guess in my mind, it's (root)ist if you take (root) into account in contexts where (root) isn't relevant.

Subject: RE: BS: When is a sexist not a sexist?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 26 Apr 07 - 06:10 PM

"Does anyone want those days back? I don't. I find most men are still polite to me, and I am polite to them. They hold doors, I hold doors; they offer seats to people who need them more, so do I. It is the courtesy of equality. If you occasionally meet a woman who is waspish about common courtesy, then she is an ignorant woman, and she is not an informed feminist."

I'd be the last to ask for a return to any of the conditions you describe, Bee.

However, I do long for the days when women were just not heard using foul language (I never swear in front of a woman-I was brought up not to), and when opening a door for a woman did not elicit the response "What do you think I am, f***ing helpless".

I no longer attempt to show this kind of courtesy, having received not one but dozens of similar verbal slaps in the face.

Sooner or later one stops bashing ones head against the wall.

I hate to admit it but I do not have the same degree of respect for today's foul mouthed young women, as I have for their grandmothers.

I'm sorry but I must call it as I see it.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: When is a sexist not a sexist?
From: Bee
Date: 26 Apr 07 - 10:33 PM

Well, Don, all I can say is that we must occupy very different cultures, because I think I'd know if that was a regular occurence here - the guys would definitely mention it, sooner or later.

Subject: RE: BS: When is a sexist not a sexist?
From: GUEST,meself
Date: 26 Apr 07 - 11:17 PM

I'm an inveterate door-holder and seat-offerer, and I've never had a hostile or rude response. I once, back in the '70s, saw a young woman make a straight-laced guy uncomfortable by pointedly refusing to exit an elevator until AFTER him. That was the only time I ever saw anything like that.

Of course, Bee and I are in Canada, where even the most contentious issues tend to be not quite as contentious as in other places ...

Subject: RE: BS: When is a sexist not a sexist?
From: Bee
Date: 26 Apr 07 - 11:58 PM

Well... I did hear quite a shouting match at the neighbour's on the weekend, but that was somebody drinking somebody else's rum without sharing...

Subject: RE: BS: When is a sexist not a sexist?
From: GUEST,meself
Date: 27 Apr 07 - 02:30 AM

Yeah but, that's different!

Subject: RE: BS: When is a sexist not a sexist?
From: Grab
Date: 27 Apr 07 - 06:11 AM

However, I do long for the days when women were just not heard using foul language (I never swear in front of a woman-I was brought up not to), and when opening a door for a woman did not elicit the response "What do you think I am, f***ing helpless".

Maybe things are different in the States - never heard that over here. Anyway, I'm as likely to hold a door open for a guy. But then Britain has a culture of the after-you-no-after-you-no-I-insist kind of thing (which makes getting two people through a doorway slower, but both feel happier afterwards. :-)

Graham.

Subject: RE: BS: When is a sexist not a sexist?
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 27 Apr 07 - 09:35 PM

My Beautiful Wife (is that sexist?) would be glad to assure you that her husband (me) is a feminist. Whereas I would never call her macho.

Dave Oesterreich