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BS: Your Career, Dead
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Subject: RE: BS: Your Career, Dead From: Richard Bridge Date: 22 May 07 - 08:37 AM That was 100! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Your Career, Dead From: wysiwyg Date: 22 May 07 - 10:13 AM some judge who spent the day dealing with drug dealers, child molesters, gang bangers, spouse-abusers, murderers, and the lot, is going to remember that college seniors make mistakes--and rule in favor of the plaintiff. I too hope she gets a second chance, but it's not likely that the judge who hears the suit will be from the criminal bench; it will be a civil trial, if it is heard at all. I dunno if it is like this in teaching, but in ministry (in our denomination), the prevailing rulings defer to canon law (the church laws one agrees to abide by when one enters the process). That canon law is shaped by experienced members of the profession and, in our denomination, voted upon by clergy and laity-- not a closed process in a "good ole boys" network. If it's the same in teaching certification, the basis for her suit will be tricky, because the state's certification processes are clearly articulated and candidates are expected to know them. ~Susan |
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Subject: RE: BS: Your Career, Dead From: Bee-dubya-ell Date: 22 May 07 - 10:15 AM Since it appears that the young lady's problems were brought on by unprofessional chumminess with her high school students, perhaps a compromise solution would be to allow her to re-attempt student teaching at a younger grade level. It sounds like she lacked the maturity to put a safe working distance between herself and her almost-adult students. She may do just fine with middle schoolers. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Your Career, Dead From: wysiwyg Date: 22 May 07 - 10:26 AM Yes, but are certs issued with grade-level limitations? One of the factors here is one that faces all professions I know about. That is, that once you accept someone into the ranks, you're giving them the keys to the candy store and it's hard to get them back if it doesn't go well. In the Red Cross, for instance, that was an important consideration-- when does a volunteer qualify to become a paid staff member who may transfer from unit to unit? A lot goes into that evaluation, because once you put someone on staff, you've sort of put the stamp of the whole Red Cross movement's approval on them, and then they may migrate into sensitive responsibilities based on that apparent endorsement. And-- changing Human Resources law is making it tougher for employers to give honest but negative references when they're warranted. Even without tenure in the picture, it can be tough to protect the public from someone who turns out not to have been worthy of the second chance they may have gotten somewhere along the line. ~Susan |
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Subject: RE: BS: Your Career, Dead From: M.Ted Date: 22 May 07 - 10:42 AM WYSYWYG: The Lawsuit was filed in Federal Court--(PA is under jurisdiction of the US 3rd Circuit Court) where both Criminal and Civil cases are heard. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Your Career, Dead From: Bee-dubya-ell Date: 22 May 07 - 10:52 AM No, certifications are not grade-level specific, but most teachers make personal decisions regarding to what grades they want to work with. If she were to be successful with middle-schoolers (whereas she obviously failed with high-schoolers) wouldn't she feel that she has "found her niche"? Why would she want to apply for a job doing something at which she failed (teaching high-shool seniors) instead of something at which she succeeded (teaching middle-schoolers)? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Your Career, Dead From: Barry Finn Date: 22 May 07 - 11:16 AM Keep the state & church seperate! Nasty business when the two cross paths. Barry |
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Subject: RE: BS: Your Career, Dead From: Metchosin Date: 22 May 07 - 11:46 AM Maybe she watched too many reruns of Welcome Back, Kotter. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Your Career, Dead From: PoppaGator Date: 22 May 07 - 02:11 PM The way I read the available information about this case ~ including, critically, the newspaper coverage ~ it looks to me that this was a personal vendetta against the student teacher on the part of one or both of the two faculty members assigned to supervise her at her student-teaching assignment. Perhaps the student-teacher is and was a truly flawed individual, unfit to be unleashed upon the student population, and the supervising teachers searched out, and found, whatever little hard evidence they could find to back up their instinctive abhorrence of this person. On the other hand, it is also possible that only one of the two supervising teachers was opposed to this young lady's certification, but that she enjoyed sufficient seniority, influence, and determination to run roughshod over her colleague and others at the school, and was thus able to turn a completely unjustified hatred, an expression of her own bluenosed and borderline-psychotic personality disorder, into a matter of public policy. Either is possible, as well as anything anywhere in-between, but I believe that the latter (or something like it) is much more likely than the former. Let it be observed that the young lady is pictured at a Halloween party portraying a "drunken pirate." She is not much more likely to actually have been drunk than to have actually been a pirate. By the logic upon which her punishment is based, a person costumed for Halloween as Dracula or Frankenstein, or for that metter as The Devil, would be assumed to be "promoting" bloodsucking, mayhem and/or sin among the "underaged." |
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Subject: RE: BS: Your Career, Dead From: GUEST,dianavan Date: 22 May 07 - 04:21 PM "Tenure is a powerful thing-- I honestly don't think they knew how to get around it, until I showed them a little creative thinking. It does give me pause, though, still today-- that what I did, I had to do not as a parent, but as a colleague.... that as a parent, if my son had drawn her before I'd gotten that office-- there is not much I could have done." Thats a very incriminating statement, Susan. As a colleague, you would be bound by the code of ethics. I'm sure you were not given an office in the school so you could creatively think of a way to destroy someone's career. Had you been a member of the same union, they would have told you that there is an appropriate process for lodging a grievance or making a complaint. There is a professional body which governs the conduct of teachers and determines if there is a need for discipline. You took advantage of a position of privilege and trust to carry out a personal vendetta. As far as the teacher in the pirate photo - Student teaching is very stressful - more stressful than teaching. You are constantly under scrutiny. You are observed, critiqued, and videotaped. If she passed the criteria for a bachelor of education, she should get it - she paid for it and she earned it. End of story. Its up to the school if they want to hire her. Her performance on the job will determine whether or not she remains. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Your Career, Dead From: wysiwyg Date: 22 May 07 - 06:48 PM Dianavan, This is not the first thread that has led me to conclude that you are determined to judge folks by your own skewed view of them, regardless of what the facts may have been. Your policy seems to be, judge first, collect facts later if at all. Right in this thread, first you are sure that I did one thing, next you are sure that I did something else entirely. In fact, I did neither. I simply did something else! Apparently, I am somewhat beyond your limited view of what people are able to do. I thought at one point that perhaps I had not given enough information, or had communicated it poorly. But I think now that nothing I could say would satisfy your moral outrage, because you are determined to have it. The situation I was in, and the action I took, bears no resemblance to your portayal of it. The fact that I was effective and appreciated in my position in that school district and in other sensitive positions I have held, and that I am still invited to play sensitive roles, is a reality you will not be able to conceive of; I don't feel it necessary to explain it to your satisfaction. You won't find much satisfaction in attacking me personally in a thread, again, as you have now done twice here-- because this is the last post I will ever direct your way, again. ~Susan |
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Subject: RE: BS: Your Career, Dead From: Barry Finn Date: 22 May 07 - 08:01 PM If abuse is seen by a mandated reporter it is by law the duty of that reporter to report the abuse~ Not to wait to bring in another reporter to discuss the merits of the situation. If a teacher is inherited & nothing is done about it the the non reporting principles are as much at fault as the abusive teacher. Abuse needs to be stopped & reported as soon as it's seen. No excuse. This is not politics. Abuse iof any kind is serious & leaves it's mark. Barry |
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Subject: RE: BS: Your Career, Dead From: M.Ted Date: 22 May 07 - 08:02 PM Something that puzzles me is that, rather than give her another chance at student teaching, at another school, with a bit of remediation in between, they basically threw her out of the education program and out into the street. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Your Career, Dead From: Ron Davies Date: 22 May 07 - 09:39 PM Susan- "someone who turns out to not be worthy of the second chance they have been given" So, Susan--do you feel this woman does not deserve another chance? Sounds like you're insinuating that. Yes or no? If you don't think this media attention--not to mention the incident itself-- will focus her attention and make her toe the line, I think you're mistaken. From now on there will be lots of people (like you?) ready to lower the boom on her at the slightest opportunity. And she knows it. As has been pointed out, she is a single mother who is trying to have a career also. Seems she deserves some support in this. Somehow your attitude does not sound exactly Christian. Unless Jonathan Edwards is your role model (no, not the the singer). It's no wonder some people who proclaim their Christianity don't give Christianity the best reputation on Mudcat--or outside. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Your Career, Dead From: Big Al Whittle Date: 23 May 07 - 07:07 AM I would hazard a well informed guess that there are damn sight more teachers being abused by pupils than vice versa in the English education system at least. The level of ignorance at the imbalance in this situation is a fair indicator of how fit someone is to comment on the subject. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Your Career, Dead From: Black Hawk Date: 23 May 07 - 08:21 AM Barry - my thoughts exactly. I am having a debate in PM with the PO & have already made that point! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Your Career, Dead From: wysiwyg Date: 23 May 07 - 10:12 AM I have nothing to debate. I have no interest, as I think I said upthread, in debating. I do have an interest in exploring the naivete behind this one, individual story. The story itself, to me, is merely the present example of a power dynamic many of you seem to be exemplifying. It IS am imbalance-- one of my main ponts! I have repeatedly invited a broader discussion; clearly I underestimated Mudcat's ability to discuss a complex situation. My bad! This thread has now become a referendum on a teacher certification decision where NONE of us has facts or a role to play, and a referendum on what ONE Mudcatter should have done almost 20 years ago with no understanding of the situation, or what I actually did. It's gone beyond ridiculous, now baiting me on my religious integrity! (WTF???) In any event-- I'm STILL going to wait and see how this young lady's case unfolds, and I'm STILL going to refrain from debating the particulars of that case, and I'm STILL going to shake my head and continue to do those things in life that I am trusted to do. This thread, in fact, will go in my resume file! ;~) ~Susan |
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Subject: RE: BS: Your Career, Dead From: wysiwyg Date: 23 May 07 - 10:16 AM PS-- translation: enjoy the thread you've hijacked, I'm outta here! :~) ~S~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Your Career, Dead From: Grab Date: 23 May 07 - 11:05 AM Is telling people that you have a MySpace page really getting too close to your students? It's about as socially deep as handing out a business card. That goes double if the content is unchallenging - and fancy dress parties at Halloween in a rather innocuous costume would certainly fall into the "unchallenging" group. It's also worth noting that action was taken *after* teaching had completed. As for the apology - if your entire future career is resting on it, wouldn't you eat some dirt, even if unwarranted, if it would get your career back? Graham. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Your Career, Dead From: artbrooks Date: 23 May 07 - 01:25 PM One point that seems to have slipped by without much fanfare: the caption on the original MySpace photo was apparently "Drunken Pirate", and the school where she was teaching had "The Pirates" as the school theme and mascot, as others have "The Bears" or "The Rams". A student at that school would think of him/herself as a Pirate, and calling ones self a "drunken pirate" sends a specific message. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Your Career, Dead From: M.Ted Date: 23 May 07 - 02:32 PM artbrooks: for the record, the Conestoga Valley High School teams are called "Buckskins"--Millersville University is/are the Pirates-- |
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Subject: RE: BS: Your Career, Dead From: Richard Bridge Date: 23 May 07 - 02:38 PM Hello, what hand gesture? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Your Career, Dead From: Peace Date: 23 May 07 - 02:45 PM Did it approach this? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Your Career, Dead From: artbrooks Date: 23 May 07 - 02:52 PM M. Ted - you are correct,that's where she was a student, not where she was teaching. The point basically remains the same. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Your Career, Dead From: heric Date: 23 May 07 - 06:35 PM Richard there is only one hand gesture in the US. We are quite unimaginative and lack in diverity there. (Well, there's the index finger through the circle thing, that would make it a fun trial.) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Your Career, Dead From: Ron Davies Date: 27 May 07 - 11:10 AM Interesting, Susan, that you still didn't find time to tell us point blank whether you felt this young woman deserves another chance in teaching or not--regardless of bad judgment she may have employed in this particular situation. You've been all over the map--it would be good to have a clear statement. Religion has very little to do with this issue, but, as I recall, there is something about forgiveness in Christianity. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Your Career, Dead From: wysiwyg Date: 27 May 07 - 05:00 PM I guess you missed my statements on that point, again, Ron. See, you have to READ my posts to see what I think, and-- possibly-- even think about them. I don't think in the simplistic terms you choose to use to cast your judgments my way. That's one reason I move in the circles I do, sorry. But since you refreshed the thread, back to the topic. Here in our environs, we've been finding lots of examples of the main point of this thread-- how any professional career can be killed (fast and early), by similarly-unthinking behaviors at similar points in one's career-- how to kill your career as a funeral director, doctor, nurse, school administrator, dentist, attorney, etc. These are practical matters, not matters for my (or Hardi's) personal judging. It's just how the world presently works. To a soul, every single professional we've discussed this with has been readily able to share how underdeveloped boundaries or lowkey ethics mistakes, made by those who are still-in-formation who didn't learn these realities in their development, have killed a career before it started. Profession by profession, professional folks seem to relate well to the present instance much as I did, with sympathy and a fair degree of surprise at the degree of naivete the "news" has reflected. We used to have a good number of professionals among us at Mudcat. I guess it got too ugly here for their pleasure, or this might have been a very different thread. ~Susan |
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Subject: RE: BS: Your Career, Dead From: Ron Davies Date: 27 May 07 - 05:26 PM Susan-- I see you still have not found time to answer the question: Do you think the teacher who is the subject of the thread deserves another chance in teaching? Yes or no? No long involved philosophical discussion necessary. As I said, you've been all over the map-- and one simple answer would clear the air. Or are you perhaps thinking of running for political office soon--so need to hone your question-dodging capabilities? I assure you, you have mastered the art. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Your Career, Dead From: Jeri Date: 27 May 07 - 05:40 PM Ron, that's not what she was posting about. She was talking about realities and you want an angle with which you can argue. Give it a rest. I don't think the reality IS that she, as a college student, did anything worth nipping a career in the bud. What we think SHOULD happen doesn't matter. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Your Career, Dead From: wysiwyg Date: 27 May 07 - 05:54 PM What Jeri said. ~S~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Your Career, Dead From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 27 May 07 - 06:57 PM It all sounds like an episode of the Simpsons. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Your Career, Dead From: Jeri Date: 27 May 07 - 07:38 PM McGrath, there are some days when EVERYTHING sounds like an episode of the Simpsons. WYS thinks (I believe) it should have been logical to assume the photo on the web page was enough to withold the teaching certificate. I still don't agree, but I don't think it was the smartest thing to do either. Right or wrong doesn't matter. The final word on whether she shoulda/coulda forseen this and whether or not this one photo & caption (likely consigned to oblivion if not for the Uni's reaction) constitutes setting a bad example, will be the courts. Somebody should have told U of P to not have a cow... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Your Career, Dead From: wysiwyg Date: 27 May 07 - 08:39 PM No, I suspect that the photo was poor and immature judgment, leading to closer scrutiny and cascades of poorer and poorer judgment, resulting in a deep, self-dug hole she seems intent on digging deeper. But that's only from the coverage-- I still maintain that we don't actually know the facts in this situation, and that opining as if we do is ridiculous and totally reactive. I think it's as silly to sit in positive judgment of her as to sit in negative judgment, and I won't be bullied into joining others in doing it. ~Susan |
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Subject: RE: BS: Your Career, Dead From: Ron Davies Date: 28 May 07 - 10:53 AM Fine--that tells us what we need to know. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Your Career, Dead From: Richard Bridge Date: 28 May 07 - 08:13 PM Oh, no, there are many hand gestures. Some examples (I am sure there are others): First finger towards camera = "Your country needs you" (as in Lord Kitchener) First finger tapped into viewer's chest = do as you are told Thumb and index finger forming circle = excellent Thumb and first finger forming circle = all fingers curled and thumb placed between first and index finger = male masturbation, or masturbation of a male (Incidentally, the one I first thought of in this context) Fist, little finger partly extended partly curled = little dick Form ring with thumb and first finger, place on forehead = dickhead First and index fingers form a "V", front of hand to viewer = Victory (after Churchill) Ditto, back of hand to viewer = fuck off Fist, index finger upward and pointed, back of hand to viewer = fuck yourself Fist, either first or second finger extended straight, front to viewer, fingers pointing up = One sharp (key of G) Ditto, first and second up = 2 sharps (D) First second and third = 3 sharps (A) All four = 4 sharps (E) All 5 = B One finger down = one flat (F) Two = B Flat Three = E flat Four = A flat Five = D Flat Thumb across throat = you (viewer) are dead Index finger flipping lips = cunnilingus First finger across throat = "you are dead" or "turn off engines" or "cut recorded sound accompaniment" Knife hand, chop downwards = you must stop (whatever it is) Point first or index finger down onto desk = listen to me Index finger, curled, tapping side of head = you are (or third party is) insane ("Doolally Tap") First finger, circling by temple = you are (or third party is) insane ("Curly Wurly Cuckoo") Fist, first and little fingers extended, jabbed in air = excellent (metal music) or reference to anal fisting - or, in Meditteranean countries, the horns of the cuckold. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Your Career, Dead From: wysiwyg Date: 28 May 07 - 10:03 PM Can I get that as flash cards please? ~S~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Your Career, Dead From: heric Date: 28 May 07 - 10:29 PM haha ho ho I was just thinking it would make a good poster similar to those signal flag ones. I admit to using the Doolally Tap on the road, and now I can name it. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Your Career, Dead From: wysiwyg Date: 29 May 07 - 08:39 PM Then there's the command "Look me in the eyes" with two fingers pointed to the other, then to one's own eyes. (I say "command" because when I've seen it used, it is very much a command.) Not quite how the Howard fellas use the two-fingered approach-- that would be another story. :~) ~S~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Your Career, Dead From: wysiwyg Date: 29 May 07 - 09:09 PM Illustrated, with subtitles: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xHSe1ogHYUw ~S~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Your Career, Dead From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 29 May 07 - 09:30 PM Then there's the Vulcan "Live Long and Prosper" one. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Your Career, Dead From: PoppaGator Date: 30 May 07 - 01:40 AM I agree with what Susan said in the very first post ~ be careful what you show the whole world about yourself on the internet, it might come back to bite you. I disagree with much of what she added subsequently, however, or at least with how I interpret her. I think that denial of the degree and the teaching certification is unconscionable. While the young woman's judgement and conduct may well have been less than perfect, she should simply have been counseled rather than condemned and denied a career. That's why they have student-teaching assignments. I hope she sues and wins. Once upon a time, being a "single mother" amounted to being a social outcast, a tramp, etc. More recently, it has become almost a badge of honor ~ not only is there nothing wrong with it any more these days, many portray the circumstance as pratically heroic. It's undoubedly wrong to endorse either of these extremes in a given case, and of course we don't know everything about this young woman and her situation. On the one hand, the fact that she got pregnant without securing a commitment from the father-to-be not just once, but twice casts some doubt upon her maturity and judgement. (Would it make a difference if we knew whether one or two fathers were involved?) On the other hand, the fact that she mangaged to complete the coursework for a college degree despite the challenges of raising two young children speaks well for her energy, dedication, and resourcefulness. It would certainly seem that she learned something from her difficult experience. Just as I did a week or more ago, I still get the very strong impression that she's been victimized by a bluenosed old biddy who harbors the more old-fashioned viewpoint towards "fornicators," and who has accumulated too much seniority and influence to be effectively opposed. The fact that the girl resorted to groveling after other avenues of appeal were closed to her means nothing to me. What else was she going to do? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Your Career, Dead From: wysiwyg Date: 10 Mar 08 - 03:14 PM Eliot Spitzer. ~S~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Your Career, Dead From: PoppaGator Date: 10 Mar 08 - 05:10 PM Um, could you elaborate a bit? It's almost a year since this thread was dropped, and now we get back into it with an obscure reference consisting of just two words, the first and last name of the Governor of New York. I wonder if anything about this Pennsylvania case has been resolved by now. Should have been... T |
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Subject: RE: BS: Your Career, Dead From: wysiwyg Date: 10 Mar 08 - 06:16 PM Um, "how to kill one's own career" was ALWAYS my idea of the topic. It soon got hijacked to focus on the one case I gave as an example. Spitzer has been kind enough to firnish another. ~S~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Your Career, Dead From: PoppaGator Date: 10 Mar 08 - 06:25 PM Aha, now I understand. I saw the newly-created Spitzer thread only after posting here, anyway ~ but still didn't get the connection. BTW: Any news on the Drunken Pirate student teacher sicen we last dicussed her case?? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Your Career, Dead From: JohnInKansas Date: 10 Mar 08 - 10:37 PM Later reports on the "pirate girl" have indicated that the university presented additional, and fairly substantial(?) justifications for withholding her diploma. Regretably, I didn't save links when they appeared. Not exactly a "career stopper," but in a similar vein: Teen appeals vulgar Web speech punishment gives, as an example, a high school student who was threatened with suspension, and removed from participating in several student activities for referring to school officials as "a bunch of douchbags" on her MySpace page. As in the prior case, the story has changed slightly since first posted; but she was removed from the Student Council, and from the ballot for class secretary. She won the election on write-ins, but was prevented from taking the office. Case in appeals court. Another case of possible interest: Town abuzz over mayor's racy MySpace page. The mayor had posed for some pictures for use with an entry in a "body builders" contest prior to becoming mayor. A friend/relative posted the pictures to "spice up the old ladie's sex life" sometime before the election. The town found out. In this last case, the mayor has been "fired," ostensibly because of the "filthy pictures" but later articles have noted a "significant disagreement" with other town A later article on the mayor had a "sample picture." Not too impressive, but once again I didn't make adequate notes. Her name in Google likely would bring it up. Rumor has it that Bill Gates (the Mickeysoft one) has a page on FaceBook, but it's been tagged "private" so you have to "be his friend" to see what incriminating stuff is there. John |
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Subject: RE: BS: Your Career, Dead From: Stilly River Sage Date: 10 Mar 08 - 11:06 PM I couldn't find any updates when searching on "Stacy Snyder" and her lawsuit. It's all still news from last year. Spitzer just knocked the stuffing out of several careers, I'd be willing to guess. And then there's the question of who leaked the story? One of Bush's pals? SRS |
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Subject: RE: BS: Your Career, Dead From: wysiwyg Date: 11 Mar 08 - 12:04 AM Oh, thanks so much JiK! I noted that mayoral one when it was hot news, but I couldn't recall it when I refreshed this thread earlier today! ~Susan |
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Subject: RE: BS: Your Career, Dead From: wysiwyg Date: 03 Oct 09 - 10:07 AM In a story about "data mining--" Big Brother is the term I grew up with but if it's renamed it's not the same thing, right? ;~) -- a CNN talking-head reports that: According to a "Career Builder survey," 45% of employers use social networking sites to research job applicants, and 1/3 of them (ONE THIRD!) rejected applicants based on their online research about the applicant. ~Susan |
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Subject: RE: BS: Your Career, Dead From: Alice Date: 03 Oct 09 - 10:30 AM We have had a recent scandal in our town from the news that city employees were being required to give up all log in names and passwords they use on the internet when they apply for a city job. A special investigator was hired to investigate the city human resources department, their actions and policies. The latest news is that some of what employees had complained of was a misunderstanding, but it still isn't clear what the city HR dept. was looking at on the internet. |
