Kate Rusby, 'You belong to me'

Subject: RE: Kate Rusby, 'You belong to me'
From: Big Phil
Date: 09 Aug 07 - 02:24 PM

Ahhhhhhhhhhhh a good old yorkshire dialect, or quite close to it anyway.

Subject: RE: Kate Rusby, 'You belong to me'
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 09 Aug 07 - 04:20 PM

Zee the pyramids lung the Nyell,
Zee the zinrize vore a trobic ayell.
Juz r'memmer darlin' all the wyell.
You belungs ta me.

Subject: RE: Kate Rusby, 'You belong to me'
From: pdq
Date: 09 Aug 07 - 04:31 PM

Better this song than another version of Tam Pierce.

Subject: RE: Kate Rusby, 'You belong to me'
From: Captain Ginger
Date: 09 Aug 07 - 04:49 PM

Christ on a bike, Google makes experts of us all, doesn't it?
Still, maybe Georgiansilver is a professor of linguistics who hides his light under a very large bushel. Whatever. I thought the thread was about one particular Kate Rusby recording which some like and others (including me) don't. It ain't folk, though. End of. What's the big deal?

Subject: RE: Kate Rusby, 'You belong to me'
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 09 Aug 07 - 04:55 PM

David Crystal has built a corporation as well as a cult of followers.
See his website- http://www.davidcrystal.com
David Crystal

He regards himself as the sole authority on the English language. If he beats his drum loudly enough, no one else will be noticed.

Subject: RE: Kate Rusby, 'You belong to me'
From: Joe Offer
Date: 09 Aug 07 - 05:29 PM

Oh, THAT song! The one about seeing pyramids along the Nile and all. Hey, that's a pop classic, if ever there was one. It was written in 1952 by Pee Wee King, Redd Steward, and Chilton Price. It was popularized by Joni James ("the Pepsi girl"), and was apparently her first recording. Also recorded by Jo Stafford and Patti Page, and in 1962 by the Duprees. I think the Duprees recording is the doo-wop version I'm thinking of, with the REALLY BIG ending.

Hey, why would this song be something to squabble about? It's a good song, and it's fun to sing. What else could anybody want?

And I wonder what's sillier - getting into a tizzy because Kate Rusby sang a classic pop song, or getting into a tizzy about somebody else getting into a tizzy. Is this pettiness the essential nature of folk musicians nowadays?

-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: Kate Rusby, 'You belong to me'
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 09 Aug 07 - 05:32 PM

In actual fact the writing of it has been in dispute Joe. Ms Chilton-Price claims to have written it but others took share in her glory..so she says. Have heard not how the dispute has ended. if it has. but perhaps someone knows.
Best wishes, Mike.

Subject: RE: Kate Rusby, 'You belong to me'
From: Cluin
Date: 09 Aug 07 - 05:47 PM

From the entry on Wikipedia for another Chilton Price song, Slow Poke:

"Slow Poke" is a popular song.I is credited to three writers: Pee Wee King, Redd Stewart, and Chilton Price. Actually Price wrote the song in 1951, as she thought the song described her friend, King, very well. King recorded the song and Stewart did the vocal. Price gave rights to the other two in exchange for publicity, as she felt she knew nothing about the music distribution business. The song did so well commercially that when Price wrote the song "You Belong to Me" the next year, she felt she could do better by ceding partial credit for authorship to King and Stewart than trying to publicize the song herself, so that song as well was credited to King, Stewart, and Price, though Price was the sole author.

Subject: RE: Kate Rusby, 'You belong to me'
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 09 Aug 07 - 06:17 PM

The song is copyright King, Price and Stewart (listed alphabetical order) on the old recordings by Bing Crosby, Bennie Carter, Patsy Cline, Petula Clark, The Duprees, Alice Faye (my favorite), Connie Francie, Ella Fitzgerald, etc., etc.

Those old timers knew how to sing, with proper diction and musicality. All of them are preferable to this teeny fluff.

Haven't seen anything about arguments over the money, so they must all have been satisfied.

Elvis Costello seems to have written a song with the same title.

Subject: RE: Kate Rusby, 'You belong to me'
From: Cluin
Date: 09 Aug 07 - 06:31 PM

So did Carly Simon.

Subject: RE: Kate Rusby, 'You belong to me'
From: GUEST,Dave Roberts
Date: 09 Aug 07 - 09:13 PM

Joe,

It's puzzling me too why anyone should want to cause a row over a nice song like 'You Belong to Me'. It's a period piece and I've no doubt that Kate Rusby's treatment of it is more affectionate than anything else.
Personally, I love all that old 50s stuff. It may be because I was born in the early part of the decade in question.
Anyway, I've spent quite a long time tonight listening to Kate Rusby tracks. She's very very good and comes across as a warm hearted and sincere performer.

Subject: RE: Kate Rusby, 'You belong to me'
From: harpmolly
Date: 09 Aug 07 - 09:44 PM

Joe,

Ouch...you got me. I alway swear to myself I won't get sucked into other people's drama, and then I do. :) But hey, I scored a very sweet compliment from Big Mick, so it was worth it. *grin*

Again, I don't think this is the best of Kate's performances. It's just hard for me not to jump in when it seems like every Kate Rusby thread turns into a "Kate SUCKS!" diatribe sooner or later. And the whole dialect thing over "jungle/joongle" snowballing into a huge kerfuffle is way beyond me. Sorry for contributing to the petty zoo. ;)

Cheers,

Moll Doll

Subject: RE: Kate Rusby, 'You belong to me'
From: GUEST,Mr Ecofriendly
Date: 09 Aug 07 - 10:34 PM

Anyway, surely in these more enlightened days,
it Kate Rusby should be criticised for anything;

it must be for continuing to sing 'jungle'

instead of 'rain-forest'.

Subject: RE: Kate Rusby, 'You belong to me'
From: KB in Iowa
Date: 10 Aug 07 - 09:15 AM

'See the rain-forest when it's wet with rain'

It needs work. Any lyricists out there?

Subject: RE: Kate Rusby, 'You belong to me'
From: GUEST,Crazy Man Michael
Date: 10 Aug 07 - 11:08 AM

'it must be for continuing to sing 'jungle'
instead of 'rain-forest'

In these politically inept times (or was that correct?) anything is possible

Subject: RE: Kate Rusby, 'You belong to me'
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 10 Aug 07 - 02:55 PM

Not so many silver planes about now either......

Subject: RE: Kate Rusby, 'You belong to me'
From: GUEST,Tunesmith
Date: 10 Aug 07 - 03:11 PM

I knew this song - and loved it - from hearing it as a kid in the 50s. Now, I think it was the plaintive ( folkie?) nature of the melody that I was responding to. I, too, feel that Kate has lost the "magic" contained in the original melody, and I wonder how that happened. Where did she learn the song? Not from the original recording I hope.

Subject: RE: Kate Rusby, 'You belong to me'
From: fumblefingers
Date: 10 Aug 07 - 03:15 PM

I like her version of the song and her accent. I also like the Jo Stafford version and the Patsy Cline version. What's there to argue about? All this effing and blinding ought to be below in the BS section.

Subject: RE: Kate Rusby, 'You belong to me'
From: GUEST,Tunesmith
Date: 10 Aug 07 - 03:24 PM

I, for one, wass't arguing, I was simply stating that Kate has somehow managed to take a classic 50s pop song and, somehow, lost the "magic" that was contained in the original melody. And, I was wondering how that happened. Did she, for example, bother to listen to any of those 50s recording, or did she get it "second hand" from somebody.

Subject: RE: Kate Rusby, 'You belong to me'
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 10 Aug 07 - 04:31 PM

well I think Kate sounds cute and vulnerable and I want to protect her.

Subject: RE: Kate Rusby, 'You belong to me'
From: GUEST,Ay Up
Date: 10 Aug 07 - 05:55 PM

Kate heard the song in the original movie of 'Shrek' She loved it so she recorded it.

Shrek Soundtrack - 5th track down


Shrek

Subject: RE: Kate Rusby, 'You belong to me'
From: Cluin
Date: 10 Aug 07 - 06:29 PM

The version in "Shrek" was pretty nondescript and non-melodic as well. Like most modern pop. More emphasis on recognizable vocal styling rather than melody (or often pitch).

Subject: RE: Kate Rusby, 'You belong to me'
From: The Sandman
Date: 10 Aug 07 - 08:52 PM

Attempting to be commercial never works ,it only ends in tears.,and destruction of credibility.

Subject: RE: Kate Rusby, 'You belong to me'
From: Brakn
Date: 10 Aug 07 - 09:49 PM

Haven't heard her version and I must say that I don't really like the song.

This thread hasn't got much to do with music and should go below the line.

Subject: RE: Kate Rusby, 'You belong to me'
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 11 Aug 07 - 02:27 AM

Her version is available at the start of the thread. If you read the thread - you would find that, and also that most of the contributions were indeed concerned with Ms Rusby (a lady singer) - the way she sings, and the various views of her contribution to folk music (a variety of music, some of us like - and some deny the existence of).

Fair precis....?

Subject: RE: Kate Rusby, 'You belong to me'
From: GUEST,Tunesmith
Date: 11 Aug 07 - 03:22 AM

There's nothing wrong with doing "folkie" versions of old pop songs. James Taylor, for example, usually makes a great job of such an enterprise.

Subject: RE: Kate Rusby, 'You belong to me'
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 11 Aug 07 - 04:07 AM

And the reason James Taylor does that, is because he's a songwriter, and the songs are for the most part crafted beautifully.

Subject: RE: Kate Rusby, 'You belong to me'
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 11 Aug 07 - 05:35 AM

I haven't looked at this ridiculous thread for several days, and I have every intention of failing to follow my own oft-repeated advice and NOT reading it.

However, Saturday Live on R4 (minus Ms Glover) has just played the thing by kRusby, interspersed with someone talking about their disabled children which was more than a bit bizarre.

I complain loud and often about those who take trad material and proceed to iron it out into conformity with trite, run-of-the-mill melodic structure and metre for commercial purposes. This is precisely what's been done to this version of the pop song in question, in much the same way as Cole Porter's Every Time We Say Goodbye is murdered by omitting the key change.

Well, well. This is taking 'good enough for f*lk' way, way too far, I'd say.

Subject: RE: Kate Rusby, 'You belong to me'
From: GUEST,Jorrox
Date: 11 Aug 07 - 06:01 AM

James Taylor's version of She Thinks I Still Care is my favourite (even better than George Jones). Other JT covers such as How's The World Treating You, You Got A Friend and How Sweet It Is are pretty good too.
But I hate his version of Up On The Roof.

Subject: RE: Kate Rusby, 'You belong to me'
From: TheSnail
Date: 11 Aug 07 - 06:08 AM

Saturday Live on R4

49 minutes into the programme.

Subject: RE: Kate Rusby, 'You belong to me'
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 11 Aug 07 - 06:13 AM

Once again Diane comes up with an original but argumentative idea.

What you're saying about pop tunes though - people used to say about folk. Someone like Owen Brannigan would do the Rocky Road to Dublin, they would say - oh wonderful, he's taken all the crudity from it - or Moira Anderson would do Ye banks and Braes - and they would say she's added refinement.

Someone like Bo Diddley can get more subtlety and genius from a E major chord that most people can get from a set of slip jigs. Its all down to the artist.

The content and structure is in a way irrelevant.

Subject: RE: Kate Rusby, 'You belong to me'
From: GUEST,Crazy Man Michael
Date: 11 Aug 07 - 12:19 PM

*whistles the simplest of tunes* yes another lovely day here, the garden is doing very well this year. Lovely crop of apples coming, I think. *wanders off down the garden*

Subject: RE: Kate Rusby, 'You belong to me'
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 11 Aug 07 - 12:57 PM

Owen Brannigan doing The Rocky Road To Dublin?
The mind boggles.
We were taken as small children to one of his 'recitals'.
Cushy Butterfield just made us laugh.
Ower posh.

However. Bo Diddley and an E maj chord. Yes.
But how about E min and The Rochdale Coconut Dance?
That can take you to lots of places.

Content and structure are very relevant.
If you can't improve on them, leave them alone.
Meddling to lowest common denominator level leads to dumbing down.

Subject: RE: Kate Rusby, 'You belong to me'
From: GUEST,Mike Rogers
Date: 11 Aug 07 - 01:08 PM

'If you can't improve on them, leave them alone' - D Easby.

Thoroughly agree. Rusby's version of a very good song takes such liberties with the melody as to render it almost unrecognisable.

By the way, today's Daily Torygraph review of her album listed it under 'pop'.

Subject: RE: Kate Rusby, 'You belong to me'
From: KeithofChester
Date: 11 Aug 07 - 01:15 PM

Oh yes, and it isn't as if the Torygraph don't have a folk section, because that has the Chris & Kellie While one in.

Daily Torygraph

Subject: RE: Kate Rusby, 'You belong to me'
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 11 Aug 07 - 01:29 PM

Of course kRusby's pop.
But then, so are the Whiles.
I feel an email to Colin Randall coming on.

Subject: RE: Kate Rusby, 'You belong to me'
From: GUEST,Crazy Man Michael
Date: 11 Aug 07 - 03:12 PM

Shame The Albion Band with Kellie While isn't still around, that would have saved Ms Kellie's folk soul :-D But the fates decided otherwise...and, here I find myself agreeing with Diane, pop she has become...what oh what possessed Fairport 69 to have Chris While fronting them for Liege & Lief..? Several far more appropriate singers come to mind...and to bring this posting back on topic, one of those names isn't Kate Rusby *LOL*

Subject: RE: Kate Rusby, 'You belong to me'
From: gnu
Date: 11 Aug 07 - 04:59 PM

Mike : "Rusby's version of a very good song takes such liberties with the melody as to render it almost unrecognisable."

So? It's called art. It's called music. You, and the rest of you pompous twits that don't like it, turn the fuckin channel. Offer your opinion, yes. But to say shit like that? Gives me a pain.

Subject: RE: Kate Rusby, 'You belong to me'
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 11 Aug 07 - 05:03 PM

It ain't art and it insults the name 'music.' It is childish simpering.

Subject: RE: Kate Rusby, 'You belong to me'
From: GUEST,Crazy Man Michael
Date: 11 Aug 07 - 05:09 PM

Subject: RE: Kate Rusby, 'You belong to me'
From: gnu
Date: 11 Aug 07 - 04:59 PM

Mike : "Rusby's version of a very good song takes such liberties with the melody as to render it almost unrecognisable."

So? It's called art. It's called music. You, and the rest of you pompous twits that don't like it, turn the fuckin channel. Offer your opinion, yes. But to say shit like that? Gives me a pain.

don't like it? turn the fuckin channel.*LOL*
hanged with your own words, boyo

Subject: RE: Kate Rusby, 'You belong to me'
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 11 Aug 07 - 05:40 PM

Remember, Gnu, no gain without pain-

Subject: RE: Kate Rusby, 'You belong to me'
From: gnu
Date: 11 Aug 07 - 05:57 PM

That's the best you got?

You are completely right. Why would I think any of you had any manners or common decency.

I said goodbye before but came back. Maybe it's me that needs some common sense.

Have fun with your trash fest. Oh, and be sure to PM me when you put out your next CD. Maybe you can even trash your own CD on Mudcat, eh?

Subject: RE: Kate Rusby, 'You belong to me'
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 12 Aug 07 - 04:28 AM

hmmmmmm.....well you see gnu, that's part of the prob. we all make cds and they never get any exposure in mags and radio progs which earnestly say they are there to reflect the English folk music scene.

so you won't get to hear them, or see them or get a chance to trash them.

KR - well at least its a subject where we all have some idea of what is being discussed.

Anyway, if you're a fan cheer up - at least she's being discussed and nobody ever kicked a dead dog.

Subject: RE: Kate Rusby, 'You belong to me'
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 12 Aug 07 - 07:11 AM

This thread has been quite amazing in its own way! I started it as I had 'discovered' Kate Rusby for myself...especially singing this one song which appealed to me. I didn't suggest it was F*lk music or that Kate is a F*lk singer or that it was 'good enough for f*lk'. Neither did I say the way she pronounces 'jungle' is unique or different from many other Yorkshire accents...we have had an argument about dialects/accents...on which subject another thread was started.
David Crystal was cited as the expert from whom the supposed fact that there are only two dialects in England had originated. Having read through David Crystals website and others related to it..it would appear he acknowledges that there are many 'dialects' some of which are 'new'.
I respect many opinions which have been given but will always fail to accept the 'holier than thou' attitude exhibited by anyone who thinks their knowledge outshines us mere backwoods mortals.
Since the days when songs were sung by drunken gentlemen...well O.K labourers.....at the end of harvest and sailors on board ship....those songs have become known as Folk songs.....traditional of course....but times are changing and so is the mode of song that appears in the Folk/accoustic/open mic genre.....I guess we have to live with it to some degree...everything changes over time. We do too. Progress is not always good but whatever we do to try to hold on to from the past...we can't! So can we not enjoy whatever music appeals to us in a broad minded spectrum without being criticised? I suppose not! Agh well! That's life eh?
Best wishes, Mike.

Subject: RE: Kate Rusby, 'You belong to me'
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 12 Aug 07 - 11:39 AM

As staed previously, Lowland Scots (Lallans) is one of the two academically recognised dialects of MAINLAND BRITAIN, not England. Indeed, it is confined mainly, these days, to the Aberdeen region of the North-East Of Scotland. The other dialect of mainland Britain (that is to say the island of Great Britain, a geographical term), is that of the Yorkshire Dales.

There are other emerging linguistic speech forms on this island which are under consideration for classification as dialects, the most obvious being Black London, and which may, ultimately, be recognised as such.

A regional speech type with insufficient variation from the standard (or received) form of a language to be considered a dialect is an accent. While this may be deemed arbitrary by speakers with nationalist aspirations, it is merely an academic distinction for the sake of accuracy and not a putdown of their race, creed or ethnic validity. Which does not, however, deter them from launching the odd gunboat or medium-scale revolution.

To describe an 'accent' as a 'dialect' is on a par, linguistically, with persistently (and erroneously) employing (say) 'infer' for 'imply', 'flout' for 'flaunt' and 'reoccur' (grrrrrrr) for 'recur'. And ignoring the essential grammatical and orthographical difference between 'its' (possessive pronoun) and 'it's' (contraction of 'it is'). And all the rest of the howlers we see increasingly

A professor at Imperial College (one of our top universities) was lamenting this very morning the extraordinarily poor spelling of undergraduates, focussing, as it happens, on the word 'occur'. Not much scope for going wrong there, you'd have thought? Sadly, there is. Most of the population (and science undergraduates are no exception) is barely literate and becoming less so, regardless of the readily available facilities of search engines and spellcheckers.

Subject: RE: Kate Rusby, 'You belong to me'
From: GUEST,guest
Date: 12 Aug 07 - 12:21 PM

"As staed previously, Lowland Scots (Lallans) is one of the two academically recognised dialects of MAINLAND BRITAIN"

Or, more precisely, one of the two recognised by one leading academic, and quoted from a reference book in which the author has not the space to explore the topic thoroughly. You'll find others who are more liberal in their interpretation of what constitutes a dialect, and of their distribution within Britain. When I studied language at a (Scottish) university, there was certainly an impetus to view Lallans not just as a dialect, but as a language as distinct from Standard English in its lexis and grammar as Danish is from Norwegian.

Also, bear it in mind that, from a strictly descriptive point of view, so-called Standard English is in itself a dialect of the language.

And Kate Rusby is boring.

Subject: RE: Kate Rusby, 'You belong to me'
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 12 Aug 07 - 12:35 PM

Ho-hum, more digression.
Strangely, the Oxford English Dictionary accepts re-occur without comment.
1867, Atwater, "Logic;" "Whenever it is applied in such measure to these several subjects, they will re-occur." Logical, no?

Flout (flowt)- also flouting- have been around since the 16th c. in the sense of jeering, or behaving with disdain. It is adding the meaning of flaunt (making a show or display)- such if English as the spoken language evolves ('as she is spoken').
Flaunt has become rare, says the OED, a polite way of saying it is becoming obsolete.

As for the subject of this peculiar thread, the young maid, er, woman who recorded "You Belong to Me," there is still hope. Voice lessons and a diction coach can do wonders.

Subject: RE: Kate Rusby, 'You belong to me'
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 12 Aug 07 - 12:43 PM

OK, one gunboat to the Scottish Parliament to reinforce the upgrading of Lallans.
Another to Barnsley to get Pure to give it a rest. (No more, no more . . . )
I haven't noticed 'flaunt' becoming rare.
Rather too much of it about, if you ask me, especially from that Northern Irish presenter on PM who regularly uses it instead of 'flout'.

Subject: RE: Kate Rusby, 'You belong to me'
From: Nick
Date: 12 Aug 07 - 02:06 PM

Going back to the beginning of the discussion...

I too think she has a good voice and enjoy her music. I first saw her in 2001 or 2002 locally playing in an intimate 200 seat venue just by herself with her voice and guitar and thought she was great.

I'm probably in a minority of one here but I sometimes feel that the odd Barnsley vowel is particularly emphasised as it's like a trademark - so there's a "joongle" and a "sunrise" with a nice short "u" but there's a "just" that is much less emphasised than on soom oother songs. Almost as though you can put in too much of a good thing I guess and I'm sure most people love it and would say 'it's just her'. It's just that it really sticks out in some songs and gets in the way of my listening. It's just a minor personal bee in bonnet thing though.

However it has had one side effect that I find slightly more annoying. I have noticed over the last four or five years increasing number of young female singers who sing certain songs in a 'shambarnsley' accent presumably because they reckon that's the way to do it right.

Subject: RE: Kate Rusby, 'You belong to me'
From: Nick
Date: 12 Aug 07 - 02:07 PM

Two hoondred?