BS: Why are they leaving the UK?

Subject: RE: BS: Why are they leaving the UK?
From: robomatic
Date: 28 Aug 07 - 12:56 AM

Neddy Seagoon: "Don't worry, dear listeners, Old England isn't finished yet..." -pause-

"It's finished," -tone sounds- "NOW!"

Subject: RE: BS: Why are they leaving the UK?
From: robomatic
Date: 28 Aug 07 - 12:53 AM

I've been working with a Scot who is in favor (ahem, excuse me, 'FAVOUR') of Independence. He says you know how the South treats the North the second you cross the border and the quality of the road changes "They're headed for round three of the land clearances" he says.

Subject: RE: BS: Why are they leaving the UK?
From: Shanghaiceltic
Date: 27 Aug 07 - 06:45 PM

I left the UK to take up a job in China. I settled here and over more and more visits back to the UK for business and to see family I realised that I could not live there anymore.

Crime is low here and naturaly the money goes further. In general I began to find the UK a bit of a depressing place. Overtaxed, expensive and with a nanny state attitude. Thats not to say you can do what you like here in the workers paradise.

I was more worried for Mrs SC's safety when I was in the UK as she has a bit of a rosey eyed view of the country. For myself a visit to Liverpool in May for a reunion confirmed that the big cities in the UK are scary.

I have never had to walk down a street at night here and fear being mugged.

On the move to Aus' hopefully in a couple of months and I have no intention to live in the UK.

Subject: RE: BS: Why are they leaving the UK?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 27 Aug 07 - 02:38 PM

I'm defending her because she is being unfairly blamed for EVERYTHING, I am not defending her politics per se, I just hate to see someone demonised to that extent, when it is impossible to hold her responsible for all the ills of the UK. The unions would have had accept some restrictions of their power at some point or another, but had Arthur Scargill not chosen to start a fight he could never have won, she would not have succeeded to the extent she did in emasculating the unions.
Giok

Subject: RE: BS: Why are they leaving the UK?
From: GUEST,Mrs Olive Whatnoll
Date: 27 Aug 07 - 02:25 PM

It's a fecking lie that people are leavin' the UK on account of me and me 'usband Eddie! Absolute rubbish! We are among the best that our class offers, salt of the earth, the kind of 'ard workin' people wot made this country wot it is becoz we ain't afraid to get our lit'le 'ands dirt'y! Yes, we made Great Britain wot it is...God's bleedin' kingdom on Earth!!!

If I 'ad the rotter that spread them lies about us 'ere, I would blacken both 'is eyes and set the dogs on 'im!

We 'ave purchased 2 of them vicious Rottweilers since the last "incident" with the nyebours. I am glad to say that we 'ave 'ad no more such incidents.

Subject: RE: BS: Why are they leaving the UK?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 27 Aug 07 - 01:30 PM

OK Giok, we don't agree, no problemo. My last words, as I don't want to get entrenched in an argument which I suspect neither of us will admit to losing:-
Whether our industries would have survived or not is a moot point - she made sure they never had a chance. And she delighted in being Robin Hood In Reverse - stealing from the 'poor' (by which I mean the Comparatively-Less-Well-Off) to give to the rich. She held the poor in total disdain - a true-blue bully-girl who loved kicking anyone who she perceived as weak and defenceless. She even married a millionaire - no chance of her tying the knot with a Govan welder.
I'm surprised at your defence of Thatcher - she had little or no regard for your country or the welfare of your countrymen. The only people who did well were the go-getters and fat-cats, it was largely due to her influence that it became fashionable to get rich by moving paper balances around instead of by making real wealth - goods for trade.
And that's where we still are today - millions in 'non-jobs', waiting-on in restaurants, taking degrees in 'leisure and tourism', following college courses in 'health and beauty' because there are no real jobs and New-Labour-Conservatives don't want the true number of unemployed to become common knowledge.
She wasn't the messenger Giok, she was the architect.
Ah well.....
:-)

Subject: RE: BS: Why are they leaving the UK?
From: alanabit
Date: 27 Aug 07 - 11:19 AM

To some extent that depends upon what you call an "industry" Giok. If we are talking about production industries, whose products have to compete with those on a global scale, I can't dispute what you have written. On the other hand, Transport and electricity, for instance, should primarily exist as utilities, to serve an internal market. Most continental transport systems in Western Europe are subsidised and non profit making. They are also reasonably priced at the consumer end, integrated with other services and more reliable than those of the UK. Austria and Switzerland, two of the most daunting landscapes in which to operate trains efficiently, have superb rail systems. I know of no other West European country, which has the shambles of the UK.
Mudcatters, who know me, are aware that I live in Cologne and have done so for around half of my life now. I was on a visit to the UK with a class of teenagers from a grammar school two weeks ago. I had several mixed feelings. Inevitably one compares the land one left, to the one it is now.
A lot of things did impress me. The streets of Hastings, London and Canterbury were clean. There were well maintained, free public toilets everywhere. You no longer have to smoke when you enter a pub or a cafe. Even the old town of Hastings had an abundance of live music. Most people on the streets, in the cafes and pubs were cheerful and helpful. It is one expensive country though, isn't it? I don't know how folk can live on those rates of pay. It is also remarkable that within a short walk of the modern shopping centres, the old streets are full of boarded up shops. That is true in just about any town. That certainly was not the case when I lived there. It is easy to get emotive about a lot of stuff. From where I was looking, I would say there has been some change for the better and some for the worse.

Subject: RE: BS: Why are they leaving the UK?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 27 Aug 07 - 09:34 AM

The Common Market has done more to cripple our industries than she ever did. Nationalised industries were mostly inefficient and all over manned, they would have gone eventually whoever was in power.
Blaming the messenger has always been a popular sport.
G

Subject: RE: BS: Why are they leaving the UK?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 27 Aug 07 - 09:27 AM

And 'Amnesiac' is the name for someone who forgets so easily Giok.
Much of what we find in the attitudes of people today has its roots in the **doctrinaire** politics of Thatcher and her gutless arse-licker pals. She created the 'Fuck You' generation, and they have passed it on down the line.

I can neither forgive nor forget. She crippled our industry, drove three million into unemployment, while selling off our nationalised industries and council housing stock to the benefit of her rich buddies.

Lest we forget. My last words on this one.

Subject: RE: BS: Why are they leaving the UK?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 27 Aug 07 - 09:10 AM

It beggars belief that some people think so poorly of their contemporaries that they are will to ascribe their inability to cope with life outside of government diktat, and are willing to blame all the ills of society on one person.
No matter what you or I think of Margaret Thatcher you cannot logically blame her for all the ills of a generation.
Please be logical rather than doctrinaire, it is typical of the attitude in this country, where some people are still fighting and re-fighting the last war. Why look forward when you can look backwards, and why take the blame, when you can blame someone else.
Dog-in-the-manger is the name for that sort of attitude.
Giok

Subject: RE: BS: Why are they leaving the UK?
From: Mrs.Duck
Date: 27 Aug 07 - 08:28 AM

Couldn't have put it better, McGrath.

Subject: RE: BS: Why are they leaving the UK?
From: GUEST,Backwoodsman sans Cooquie
Date: 26 Aug 07 - 03:55 PM

Precisely, McG.

Subject: RE: BS: Why are they leaving the UK?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 26 Aug 07 - 02:52 PM

Let's see how long has she been gone now?

Seventeen years isn't it? We're just now getting teenagers who had parents whose whole childhood was spent in the ruins of the economic and social devastation over which Thatcher presided.

Subject: RE: BS: Why are they leaving the UK?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 26 Aug 07 - 02:22 PM

"'New Labour' is Conservatism hiding behind a New Name."

Exactly. Just like the Democrats are Conservatism pretending to be something else. They are the servants of the corporate-military-industrial complex hiding behind another name and pretending not to be basically almost identical to their opponents, the Republicans. They both serve the same money-driven agenda. They both run the same aggressive foreign policy and back the same wars.

Big Money has bought out all the major political parties long ago. Big Money prefers a $ySStem where 90% of the wealth is in the hands of 5% of the populace, and where workers and ordinary people are powerless wage slaves in dead end jobs with no security.

It's the New Feudalism, and it's very, very proud of its accomplishments around the world. I'm sure that more is yet to come. Maggie Thatcher wasn't the cause of it...she was more like a symptom...or a facilitator. She helped move the process along.

Subject: RE: BS: Why are they leaving the UK?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 26 Aug 07 - 01:42 PM

Giok, the values I spoke of - reward for hard work, loyalty and selflessness, were destroyed during The Bitches Reign Of Terror Over The Ordinary Man. She and her lackeys encouraged, nay inspired, the selfish, 'Me-First And Fuck You' attitudes we see so much of today.

And yes, New Labour ** spit** has completely failed to address that problem - mainly, I guess, because 'New Labour' is Conservatism hiding behind a New Name.

I lived through it, as did you. You know I'm right. :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Why are they leaving the UK?
From: folk1e
Date: 26 Aug 07 - 09:08 AM

One of the problems is that we have increased access to information!
The papers (who need headlines to sell them) print drivvel and the great unthinking lap it up. If you are told something often enough you tend to believe it!
Things are getting better not worse!
10 years ago there were many areas of Manchester, Salford, Oldham and Rochdale that were "no go" areas, now there is only one part of Manchester (M40) that I do not go to (on my own) and that is because of damage to the veichle not me!
People move house more often now, one of the consequences of which is that we no longer have the same community spirit!
If we see a child do something wrong we do not correct it, but complain to our circle of friends. We are also more "litigious" and so we get the urban myth of the first aider sued by the person they are attempting to save!
We should all just judge a bit less and do a bit more!
This is not a new problem "forgive me the youth with their long hair, for I do not understand them" was one quote from Socratiese!

Subject: RE: BS: Why are they leaving the UK?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 26 Aug 07 - 07:36 AM

Still blaming Maggie I see. how convenient it is to have someone to blame for ones own cock ups.
Let's see how long has she been gone now? How long has the 'Socialist' [sic] government been in power now?
Just because one is disappointed in the failings of ones own political party doesn't mean you shouldn't blame someone who has nothing to do with their shortcomings is it?
Giok

Subject: RE: BS: Why are they leaving the UK?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 26 Aug 07 - 06:53 AM

Goods points Gurney. Unfortunately, since the reign of that f**king Grantham tart, the ethic of rewarding hard work and valuing long experience seems to have bitten the dust. What's important nowadays seems to be Youth, the ability to talk the bollocks of ignorance and sound like an expert, and the distance a person's tongue can be inserted into the rectum of their workplace superiors.

Subject: RE: BS: Why are they leaving the UK?
From: Gurney
Date: 25 Aug 07 - 05:20 PM

I'm behind the times, I emigrated to NZ more than 30 years ago, so I don't know the state of the nation there 'back home'. However, the troubles that you are experiencing are echoed to some extent in the two most popular destinations for emigrants.

My thinking, from memories of my youth and experiences of my life, is that unless you have an inclination to be a salesperson, media personality, or have the brains to be some kind of whizz-kid, you will never be financially secure in your whole life, supposing that you are a young adult now.

My contemporaries and I were raised in the knowledge that work, over a lifetime, would ensure a life of stability, and some comfort. People left school and found a trade or job within their competence, took their place in society, and tried to live 'happily ever after.'

The inequity that I read about (and see around me here) seems designed to bring despair to the average punter, who can get no work with stability for the future. With 10% of the population owning 80% of the wealth, how can an ordinary bloke make his way?

I can find no argument with other views expressed above, and I think it all adds together to create dspair in young people.

Subject: RE: BS: Why are they leaving the UK?
From: Mrs.Duck
Date: 25 Aug 07 - 04:24 PM

We considered leaving and a lot of that was due to the 'nannie state' as mentionned by MBSLynne above. That and the culture of favouring cheap young teachers over experienced ones. I don't find an obvious increase in crime round here although I do notice the lack of respect kids show in general in schools. Tothe best of my knowledge the only schools that have English as a second language are in Wales and having workied in areas where the local population was mainly Asian all lessons are conducted in English.

Subject: RE: BS: Why are they leaving the UK?
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 25 Aug 07 - 01:09 PM

Let's hope they catch the scum who shot poor 11 year old Rhys Jones.

Subject: RE: BS: Why are they leaving the UK?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 25 Aug 07 - 01:07 PM

My guess would be that people are leaving the UK in order to get far away from Olive Whatnoll and 'er 'usband, Eddie.

Subject: RE: BS: Why are they leaving the UK?
From: Folkiedave
Date: 25 Aug 07 - 01:02 PM

6) Bring back public Corporal Punishment

Actually the reason we got rid of it (and the same reason they got rid of it in schools) was because it didn't work.

Take any school punishment book - the same names appeared time and time again. Also it allows some people sexual gratification, beating people. Just another form of child sex abuse.

Wasn't there an Eton Headmaster in there somewhere?

Subject: RE: BS: Why are they leaving the UK?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 25 Aug 07 - 07:21 AM

Red Herring there Watney's (for god's sake, why would anyone which half an ounce of self respect choose to name themselves after the worst 'beer' ever produced?). Almost the entire population of North America is made up of 'immigrants', give a generation or two, but they aren't all leaving.

And a large proportion of emigrants from the UK appear to be immigrants who decided to go home, or somewhere else.

Subject: RE: BS: Why are they leaving the UK?
From: GUEST,watney's
Date: 24 Aug 07 - 06:58 PM

Possibly due to the number of immigrants ?
English is becoming the second language in many of our schools.
The government has to deal with this.

Subject: RE: BS: Why are they leaving the UK?
From: The Walrus
Date: 24 Aug 07 - 12:50 PM

Perhaps a few suggestions:
1) Bring back Borstals
2) If 'kids' commit "Adult" crimes (such as firearms offences) let them face "Adult" courts and "Adult" sentences.
3) Add 'other' offences committed during the commission of a crime into the mix at sentencing - example: If a shooter has no suitable licence, there's an automatic extra "illegal possession" charge (that's worth up to 5 years).
4) Drop the 'sentences served concurrently' crap - make it CONSECUTIVE, let the ba*ds know that they stand the chance of going away for a VERY long time.
5) "Bolt On" additional sentences for use of weapons - as a suggestion:
Using anything "a reasonable person" could take for a firearm (Touys, replicas, blank firers, de-activated weapons etc.) -2 Years
Assault with above (not discharged) - 3 years
Discharging same - 4 years
Assault with firearm (weapon discharged) - 6 years
Wounding with firearm - 8 years
Homocide (deliberate or not) 15 years (no reduction)
The above to be 'add on's, to be served consecutively with any sentence for the crime for which the defendent is convicted (so a murderer would get Life + 20 years (15 for the homocide + 5 for illegal posession) + the appropriate 'bolt on' for anyone else killed or injured.
Maybe it won't be seen as a deterrent, but it will keep the scum out of society*
6) Bring back public Corporal Punishment - A birching in public would have more effect than any ASBO
7) Bring back 'Hard Labour' (preferably, heavy, hard and soul destroyingly boring) and 'Rigorous Imprisonment'
Unfortunately these last two would be condemned as 'cruel and unusual' and probably be condemned under 'Human Rights' legislation.


* Can we start a prison colony on Rockall?

Subject: RE: BS: Why are they leaving the UK?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 24 Aug 07 - 08:22 AM

"At nightime every park in the country has it's own contingent of yobs getting arseholed and threatening ordinary people."

Wrong - at least, where I live it's wrong. 'Every' is a big word, and pretty much unverifiable. I'd agree with 'some parks' though.

"No discipline. Poor parenting. Claim culture. Freely available cheap booze"

Correct.

"Useless coppers"

Wrong again. It's "demoralised and emasculated coppers whose hands are tied by the Politically-Correct-Dickheads who are dictating how they can do their jobs, a judiciary who live on the Planet Zog, and law-makers who haven't a clue". The coppers know what to do, they just daren't do it, and anyway they're too busy filling in stupid forms in order to satisfy the Politically-Correct-Dickheads, Planet-Zoggers and clueless law-makers.

IMHO :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Why are they leaving the UK?
From: MBSLynne
Date: 24 Aug 07 - 08:21 AM

But in fact, the areas where you don't feel safe on the streets are few and mainly around the big towns. It's just that they are the ones you hear about. Once again, you never hear about the streets, villages, towns where nothing happens because it's not news.

Love Lynne

Subject: RE: BS: Why are they leaving the UK?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 24 Aug 07 - 08:20 AM

Either bring back a system like the old Remand Homes, and/or make the parents of children under the age of criminal responsibility legally responsible for the actions of said child.
e.g. If a ten year old commits a felony, charge one of both of his parents with the crime as if they'd done it, which in way they have!
We have no sanctions we can apply to young children, corporal punishment is illegal, the law cannot touch them, and they know it, so they take advantage.
I have threatened to call the police to a couple of young thugs locally, and got the, 'They can't touch us' reply, time they were stopped from being able to maraud and damage with impunity.
Giok

Subject: RE: BS: Why are they leaving the UK?
From: Stu
Date: 24 Aug 07 - 07:39 AM

ard has it spot on.

At nightime every park in the country has it's own contingent of yobs getting arseholed and threatening ordinary people. They cause problems on their way to and from their drinking grounds ansd the police either don't give a shit or certainly can't give them a cuff around the ear so they are pretty ineffective - and the yobs are only too aware of it.

No discipline. Poor parenting. Claim culture. Freely available cheap booze. Useless coppers and politicians who don't understand what is actually happening.

In my opinion we're fucked.

Subject: RE: BS: Why are they leaving the UK?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 24 Aug 07 - 05:11 AM

Friends of ours sold up a lovely house in Somerset about 5 years ago, and moved to Normandy in France, reason given was "Can't stand any more of that effing Tony Blair!"
Giok.

Subject: RE: BS: Why are they leaving the UK?
From: ard mhacha
Date: 24 Aug 07 - 05:04 AM

I was castigated on this Site last year by lots of regulars from England for daring to tell them that their streets were unsafe, that thuggery was the norm with their teenage yobs, now every paper I read is crying out for`law and order`.

The fault lies with lack of parental control, the parent or parents of the hood on the street spend most of their evenings at the local pub.

I pointed out that on the European mainland this form of yob rule was unheard off, the only exception being those resorts were the English youth use for replays of their behavior at home.

It is getting more and more out of hand, winning the streets back for the people is going to take a long time.

Subject: RE: BS: Why are they leaving the UK?
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 24 Aug 07 - 04:46 AM

When National Service is brought back, or whatever fancy name they decide to call it, at least the little antisocial scroats will stand some chance of being knocked into shape!

Subject: RE: BS: Why are they leaving the UK?
From: MBSLynne
Date: 24 Aug 07 - 04:42 AM

My main reason (though I agree with a lot of the reasons others have given) would be the increasingly controlling "Nannie state" where no one can think for themselves, no one expects to take responsibility for their actions and you can't turn round without some3one saying it's dangerous and passing a rule to stop you from doing it.

As someone who moved here by choice in the first place 30 years ago, I've seen the place change for the worse at a rapidly increasing rate. The England I came for has all but disappeared

Love Lynne

Subject: RE: BS: Why are they leaving the UK?
From: The PA
Date: 24 Aug 07 - 03:18 AM

News this morning, the M5 is closed at J11 Gloucester - someone taking potshots at a police car - now tell me its not getting worse?
Three in as many days? It maybe 'copy-cat' stuff, but its still people having guns and going out in broad daylight and using them.

Subject: RE: BS: Why are they leaving the UK?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 23 Aug 07 - 06:34 PM

I only wish we could secede from England and join Scoland here in Harlow...

Subject: RE: BS: Why are they leaving the UK?
From: Linda Kelly
Date: 23 Aug 07 - 06:19 PM

it isn't just illness that draws people back to his country -you may qualify for healthcare in the EC with an E111 but you do not qualify for social help for the elderly ie home or residential care in many countries if you become infirm. Social care is free in Scotland and meanstested in the remainder of the uk, but free for those on basic benefits pension credit etc.

Subject: RE: BS: Why are they leaving the UK?
From: skipy
Date: 23 Aug 07 - 06:07 PM

The perception that the UK is full of homicidal gun-owners is false,...: Backwoodsman

Correct, it appears from an article today, that they RENT them for a day or a week! Find out who the "gunlords" are & TAKE THEM OUT!
Skipy

Subject: RE: BS: Why are they leaving the UK?
From: Ebbie
Date: 23 Aug 07 - 05:42 PM

"The perception that the UK is full of homicidal gun-owners is false,...: Backwoodsman

Believe it or not, Backwoodsman, that perception of the US is false also.

It strikes me that jingoistic USers will note that, according to the article, America is not being beset by pounding-on-the-door wannabe UK immigrants. *g*

Subject: RE: BS: Why are they leaving the UK?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 23 Aug 07 - 03:14 PM

I've been ill too Scooby, and I can think of far worse places to be ill in. QMC at Nottingham were quick and thorough in diagnosing my illness and carrying out my op. Can't fault 'em.

Oh, and many of the staff were non-British too, God bless 'em.

Subject: RE: BS: Why are they leaving the UK?
From: Scooby Doo
Date: 23 Aug 07 - 02:38 PM

I WOULD GO IF I HAD T








I would go if i had the chance but been ill noone will have me except this country.




Scooby.

Subject: RE: BS: Why are they leaving the UK?
From: GUEST,Jonny Sunshine
Date: 23 Aug 07 - 01:54 PM

Well I'm not leaving, I still quite like it here.

Subject: RE: BS: Why are they leaving the UK?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 23 Aug 07 - 12:15 PM

Still a long way to go before there are as many as in the USA, where anyone can wave a gun around in order to 'defend themselves'.

The media would like everyone to believe there's a gun-totin' psycho-hoodie waiting round every corner, ready to blow away the first person he sees. It sells papers, but it's bollocks. There are a small number of people of a particular kind, who are settling scores, marking territories and scaring the shit out of those they perceive as their 'enemies' - e.g. the M40 shooting, which turned out to be some sort of Hells-Angel-Score-Settling, and the drug/gang-related 'executions' which we hear about in, e.g., Manchester.

The perception that the UK is full of homicidal gun-owners is false, and is simply a media-tool for selling copy. The vast majority of the UK population will never see a gun.

Subject: RE: BS: Why are they leaving the UK?
From: The PA
Date: 23 Aug 07 - 12:01 PM

Just on the news, another shooting in Letchworth this lunchtime - what in gods name is going on in this country???

Subject: RE: BS: Why are they leaving the UK?
From: The PA
Date: 23 Aug 07 - 11:56 AM

The Walrus - I think this was the sort of thing my son (and his mates) had in mind. I agree they are certainly not the kind of yobs who would be at all suitable for our Services. Unless we follow Skipy's idea.

Subject: RE: BS: Why are they leaving the UK?
From: skipy
Date: 23 Aug 07 - 11:19 AM

Use them for minefield clearance, linked arm in arm!
Skipy

Subject: RE: BS: Why are they leaving the UK?
From: The Walrus
Date: 23 Aug 07 - 10:42 AM

-CAUTION- THREAD DRIFT

Re: Conscription.

The idea of military National Service is inviting, but, as has been stated in the past, the Forces DON'T WANT CONSCRIPTS, add to this, as has been mentioned, who would want to see some of the less desirable elements able to use firearms properly.

May I suggest a compromise might be a paramilitary type 'Civil Defence' force, this could have a 'regular' element as well as a 'conscript' force (as did the Armed forces in the 1950s), thus giving a degree of stability and structure, the training could be used to ensure that, say, everyone within an age bracket was trained in First Aid (or whatever), travel, postings, R&R 'in theatre' could be used to help regulate behavior.

The force thus formed could be employed in disaster relief (perhaps units seconded to International organisations* as a 'rapid reaction force) or in humanitarian type work (water systems in the third world etc).

We now return you to your normal service

* UN, ICRC etc

Subject: RE: BS: Why are they leaving the UK?
From: wysiwyg
Date: 23 Aug 07 - 10:00 AM

Because it's tiny and people get the wanderlust when they've seen the breadth of the colonies? Until they find out how it's going to be, to lose healthcare.

~S~

Subject: RE: BS: Why are they leaving the UK?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 23 Aug 07 - 09:56 AM

If you're looking for a previous period to blame for things going wrong on the streets, a better candidate than 60s "progressivism", I suggest would be the Thatcherite ethos of laissez faire and evil take the hindmost which devastated whole communities and threw millions of people out of work.

Subject: RE: BS: Why are they leaving the UK?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 23 Aug 07 - 09:12 AM

National service is no longer an option. In these times of high tech soldiering, the army can't be expected to supply a role for uneducated, undisciplined and indolent teenagers, just to get them out from under our feet.

It should be remembered too that these kids are the minority of young people who, while they are a bloody nuisance socially, are also to some extent victims of a laisser faire culture developed during the 1960s by a bunch of trendy twerps with sociology degrees and delusions of infallibility.

Those we are now finding so difficult to deal with, are the grandchildren of the Dr. Spock generation, who were brought up in the belief that it would blight their little psyches if anyone said NO to them.

In the main, undisciplined parents raise undisciplined kids, and it doesn't get better over three generations, it gets worse.

The vast majority of youngsters are actively engaged in getting themselves the best education they can, as well as supporting local organisations, and charities.

For the minority, it is probably too late to effect much improvement in their lives, or their impact on the neighbours.

Most of the work of rearing a disciplined adult is done before the age of two. One thing which is guaranteed to bring smoke from my ears, is the adult,watching a toddler behaving badly, who says "Awww! Isn't that cute?"

NO IT ISN'T! And if we let the child think it is, we are setting him up for trouble later on.

We don't approve of smacking any more (I don't mean beating, just a slap on bottom or hand), and we are the only animal on this planet that doesn't. Why? Well I haven't a clue.

What I do know is this. With the use of a very occasional slap, my two kids knew all the house rules by the time they were two years old, and neither needed a slap beyond that age. Of course they broke rules, and misbehaved, but they knew that no meant NO,,and loss of privileges would follow.

Do I feel guilty about the few times I smacked them? Emphatically not! I never had to worry about their behaviour, and they both have very good careers, and I feel that I helped to put them on that path.

Next time you see a bunch of hoodies looking menacing on a street corner, stop and think, that the person responsible may be sitting at home watching telly, and not caring enough to have tried.

Don T.