Newcastle Folk Degree - is it any good?

Subject: Newcastle Folk Degree - is it any good?
From: GUEST,Acorn54
Date: 01 Nov 07 - 05:34 PM

There seems to be quite a high drop out rate for students on this course
It the quality of the course up there with the best?
Is the degree worth having? Why have the people left before completing and does it need to be four years?

Subject: RE: Newcastle Folk Degree - is it any good?
From: johnadams
Date: 01 Nov 07 - 06:16 PM

Any degree is a fine balance of the students studying, the staff teaching and the resources available.

The degree seems to be well resourced and has, in the Sage, one of the newest and swankiest venues in the country. Whether that's relevant to folk music is, of course arguable.

The staff seem to be made up of very expert practitioners and I am a tiny bit biased as my nearest and dearest, Chris Coe, has just returned from a three day stint teaching up there. That said, when her colleagues include Kathryn Tickell, Catriona McDonald, Stewart Hardie, Sandra Kerr, and many more, and her boss is Vic Gammon then I think the expertise isn't in doubt.

So that leaves the students. Well if they're anything like my tv and radio students there'll be good years, bad years and mixed years. Some people who drop out of my course do so because......
they've got a place at a prestigious institution like the Vancouver/Beijing/Cuba etc Film School
or
they've got a job making cookery programmes for Granada/Sky
or
they've been offered a job on a feature film
or
they've run out of money
or
they've taken too many drugs
or
they've fallen in/out of love
or
they're pregnant
or, or, or...


How do you judge the course in relation to these exits?

And as to the 4 years, it's taken most of us a lifetime and we're probably a way off getting it right yet. I am anyway!

J

Subject: RE: Newcastle Folk Degree - is it any good?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 01 Nov 07 - 06:21 PM

"The Best"?

What other folk music degrees are there?

In England?

Subject: RE: Newcastle Folk Degree - is it any good?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 01 Nov 07 - 06:29 PM

I think probably we all agree that its time folkmusic did have its place on the curriculums of schools and universities.

As you can tell from the way that certain beliefs are adhered to with blind unquestioning devotion on the Mudcat, the subject has inherent problems for the English. Its a pedant's dream subject. Questioning of some of these extremely silly ideas underpinning the folk revival is simply not allowed.

the reason I think this may be a problem, I saw a performance by people connected with the course. (no name, no packdrill for these are young performers making their first steps). the song about a contemporary issue sounded as though it had been written mid decks on one of Nelson's ships.

seats of learning have always been conservative places in England. The revolutionary theories of Ewan MacColl have sadly been allowed to ossify into a new orthodoxy. The prospect of redbrick turreted enclave where the most opinionated men on mudcat have the power of pass and failure over young people would disenchant many.

Subject: RE: Newcastle Folk Degree - is it any good?
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 01 Nov 07 - 06:36 PM

I don't know the current norm, but in the early 70s a first year dropout of 40% in any kind of university course did not raise eyebrows.

To the question "Is it any good?" I have to respond with "For what?". In my view such a course should not necessarily be seen in the same light as courses that are meant to lead directly to a specific profession (medicine, law, teaching etc), because it has additional possibilities to offer, such as obtaining and improving skills and knowledge for their own sake, for a start. It should not be judged with the same yardstick therefore.

Subject: RE: Newcastle Folk Degree - is it any good?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 01 Nov 07 - 06:42 PM

Newcastle itself is good. The Folk degree students do a cracking night at the Bridge Folk Club. Dunno if the degree is any good though.

D.

Subject: RE: Newcastle Folk Degree - is it any good?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 01 Nov 07 - 06:54 PM

I could not agree less with WMD. If people wish to write about a contemporary issue in the idioms of metal (any of its many genres - I once got into a real flame war about the limits of "doom"), ragga, country, power-pop or whatever by all means they may do so, and the song may be none the worse, but if it is anything to do with "folk" then it requires the connection with the folk - who we are which is but an extension of what we were. Thus the word has consistent meaning across "folk-lore" "folk tale" folk-myth" "folk-dance" and "folk arts" generally.

The insistence that no form that has been used is of contemporary application is, in the limit, absurd, but moreover, the genres that WMD would prefer to use are in fact rooted in a tradition - a more recent tradition, and an alien tradition to England or many parts of the UK - namely the forms of "country" which in many parts are indebted to to blues forms or what might now be called "Mobo". In short they owe more to American (mostly US) cultural impperialism than to the UK. There is no reason to advocate that the people of England, Scotland, Wales, and, slightly more distantly, Ireland should abandon their own roots and seek to become cuckoos in another nest.

The essence of the study of folk music or any other folk art is that it cleaves to and grows from the tradition of that folk art.

Subject: RE: Newcastle Folk Degree - is it any good?
From: johnadams
Date: 01 Nov 07 - 06:56 PM

George Papavgeris wrote:

I don't know the current norm, but in the early 70s a first year dropout of 40% in any kind of university course did not raise eyebrows.

George, those days are well past. One of my 'performance indicators' is retention rate.

J

Subject: RE: Newcastle Folk Degree - is it any good?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 01 Nov 07 - 07:16 PM

Of course what I say and what I do may not necessarily co-incide.

Subject: RE: Newcastle Folk Degree - is it any good?
From: johnadams
Date: 01 Nov 07 - 07:23 PM

I agree with Richard that if you're going to do a folk degree which includes generating new material then that material has to stand on something and the style of the early 19th century is just as valid as any other past period. The one thing it doesn't need to be is bang up to date.

But the question that any folk degree or course or module has to address is does it provide a suitable basis for stepping into a career? Can folk music performance be studied in this way as opposed to just getting out there and doing it?

We faced the same questions two decades ago when Salford University was validating degrees in Popular Music and teaching people to be Rock'N'Rollers etc.. A piece of paper is no good when really, you're only as good as your last gig!

Really, the folk degree is probably the equivalent of a fine art degree - you're not guaranteed to turn out the equivalent of a Henry Moore or a Botticelli but it's a good breeding ground for all manner of interesting things.

J

Subject: RE: Newcastle Folk Degree - is it any good?
From: The Sandman
Date: 01 Nov 07 - 07:25 PM

The prospect of redbrick turreted enclave where the most opinionated men on mudcat have the power of pass and failure over young people would disenchant many.[quote from wee little drummer]
WLD,What about the mudcat women?

Subject: RE: Newcastle Folk Degree - is it any good?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 01 Nov 07 - 07:29 PM

Obviously I don't know the facts of the matter, Richard. it just seemed an area of concern to me - and I would want the the matter cleared up before I considered recommending the course for one of my friend's kids.

If you really think the soul of the English society can only be addressed in folk music, by using a load of stylistic eccentricities - mainly thought up by very imaginative and individual artists in the 1950's and 60's - well that's your opinion - and you know mine is different.

Folk has got a lot to offer. it can tell a story faster than an epic film, characterise as vividly as a face on a cigarette card, provide performance and confidence building experience for young people....and no doubt much more I haven't thought of.

its too bloody good to leave it to the folksingers.

Subject: RE: Newcastle Folk Degree - is it any good?
From: Geordie-Peorgie
Date: 01 Nov 07 - 08:04 PM

Aah cannit vouch for how 'good' the Folk Degree is but it worries me that it's up there alongside the degree in 'Coronation Street'

Years ago somebody told uz that ANY academic acheivement (11 Plus, GCE, A-Level, Uni Degree) just proved that you hev the ability te tek in info and store it lang enough te be examined on it.

However, aah've heard soem of the 'graduates' from these degree courses play at festivals in various guises and they aall seem very proficient on their chosen multi-instruments but none of them appear to have any connection or rapport with an audience.

Summat the' cannit teach ye in school!

Subject: RE: Newcastle Folk Degree - is it any good?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 01 Nov 07 - 08:10 PM

Al, the question is two-fold. What does he want to know, and what does he want to perform. University degrees should always be about self-improvement, and not about pecuniary benefit: that was an invention of the Gordon Gecko years under that unspeakable woman. Learning is the key virtue.

I agree that that's what folk can do. But anime is a different art form from the hollywood blockbuster, and that differs from the art movie. A film director needs to understand the silent movie to know how to tell a story visually - my favourite shot from the Mad Max movies from Mad Max 1 - the shot where you see the belt drive to the the GMC supercharger gradually, stutteringly take up drive - knows this. THe hugely overrated "Get Carter" knows this.

Likewise in photography (a medium I hate) - the photographer needs to understand black and white in order to be able to make meaning with a colour shot.

You can't make folk music without roots. And no artist should be in any art form purely for profit. It is his/her muse that that must rule.

If your man is a money grubber, tell him to go to a music management or music technology course at dunnamany places. If his muse is in English/UK roots, there is not much alternative to Newcastle. Or he can go out on the road....


Dammit, we simply HAVE to meet some time, and look for the overlap!

Subject: RE: Newcastle Folk Degree - is it any good?
From: Leadfingers
Date: 01 Nov 07 - 08:26 PM

The disturbing thing is the VERY good musicians who come out of these University / Poly / whatever courses with a very high proficiency on their chosen instruments , form a band , and immediately EXPECT HUGE fees without having ANY idea of 'relating ' to an audience !

Subject: RE: Newcastle Folk Degree - is it any good?
From: GUEST,doc.tom
Date: 01 Nov 07 - 08:26 PM

Hmm... Interesting - as usual. Is it any good?? - for whom? and in what way? Converations with several who have been throught it seems to suggest that it has been of benefit/value to them. It is a degree IN MUSIC, remember. Government targets of 50% of the population going to university means, BY DEFINITION, anyone of average intelligence and above! Early concerns about the academic rigor of the course are totally assuaged by having His Worship The Gammon in charge - and the credentials of the tutors can hardly be in doubt. I find it encouraging that the course at least attempts to deal not only with the music, but also with the 'Industry' (God help us all!), stage-craft (although not very sucessfully from most of what I've seen) and how to get gigs and influence people (throw money at it). Rather it was there than not - how about some more to extend the scale and scope, and hopefully to avoid a singular school/style develpoing - no, it's not too late!
TomB

Subject: RE: Newcastle Folk Degree - is it any good?
From: catspaw49
Date: 01 Nov 07 - 08:26 PM

This past thread ought to be useful. Ian Stephenson attended there.

Subject: RE: Newcastle Folk Degree - is it any good?
From: Peace
Date: 01 Nov 07 - 09:32 PM

Has anyone seen the course?

Subject: RE: Newcastle Folk Degree - is it any good?
From: catspaw49
Date: 01 Nov 07 - 09:58 PM

Well, Number 5 has a nasty dogleg to the left but if you can pull the ball a bit you can actually turn the corner off the tee with a Driver. From there its a 2-Iron to the Green. The other significant holes are the 12th, an all-carry Par 3 that rewards a great high Irons player and the 17th with that water hazard guarding the Green and the deep Fairway traps at 200 yards out. The 18th is a pretty hole and is a nice finishing Par 4.

Spaw

Subject: RE: Newcastle Folk Degree - is it any good?
From: Peace
Date: 01 Nov 07 - 10:07 PM

I had to ask . . . .

Subject: RE: Newcastle Folk Degree - is it any good?
From: Greg B
Date: 01 Nov 07 - 10:29 PM

How many Newcastles do you have to drink in order to obtain
the degree.

I might qualify on the basis of life experience...

Subject: RE: Newcastle Folk Degree - is it any good?
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 01 Nov 07 - 11:24 PM

surprising to me theres no equivalent degree
at any colleges in the Bristol area..?????

especially seeing as music technology / performance arts courses
are hugely popular with local further education students
down here in the west country..


.. and it makes far more sense to me
for young folk musicians to learn their craft & culture
in a city where you can still get a proper pint of cider !!!!

Subject: RE: Newcastle Folk Degree - is it any good?
From: fiddler
Date: 02 Nov 07 - 04:26 AM

hmmmmm..........

Surely it is What are we expecting from the degree?

It is study of and examination in a branch of music which happens to be folk.

Do English degree holders all go on to become writers etc. I know a chemist who is an accountant........

What do Sandra Kerr and the others academics tutoring and lecturing on the course see as it's aims and aspirations.?

Lets not all talk b*ll*x about what we think lets try and have an informed discussion. A degree in anything merely opens doors it does not guarantee entry and acceptance - in any field!

BTW I work in a University and have known many students over the years some of whom used their degrees in a vocational manner, others (one in particular) after working many years in poor jobs not demanding high academic standards re trained and became a physiotherapist - so much for a joint English and German degree!

What I am saying really is lets keep it all in perspective the aim is not to turn out a new Waterson, Carthy, Coe, Rusby or Kirkpatrick is it?

How many mainstream performers hold music degrees in their chosen art form?

Andy

Subject: RE: Newcastle Folk Degree - is it any good?
From: fiddler
Date: 02 Nov 07 - 04:27 AM

Anyway you couldn't duplicate Eliza now couold you?

:-)

Subject: RE: Newcastle Folk Degree - is it any good?
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 02 Nov 07 - 04:57 AM

"One of my 'performance indicators' is retention rate."

Amen, brother. When I was teaching at university level a few years ago, the paradox was that the 50% targets mean that many "new" universities will take just about anyone at clearing, including people who haven't even done A Levels - and when these young people cannot then cope with the academic environment (because they don't even know how to write an essay, for example, and don't have particularly advanced literacy skills), the priority is to do whatever you can to retain them when some of them probably shouldn't even be there in the first place. I personally found it soul-destroying. Oh, and just try failing anyone...

*climbs down from hobby horse*

Re the Newcastle degree: I have heard mixed responses from several former students and graduates. To be honest, the only way to respond to the question would be to be able to include their views and opinions. It would also be interesting to know why most people who do the degree are doing it. Do they see it as a stepping-stone into a career, as many other students do these days, or is it about study for its own sake?

When most people discuss the folk degree they immediately think of all the bright young things who perform at festivals, but I understand that there is a range of ages and experience on the degree - I'd love to hear what some of the mature students make of it. When I was teaching, it was the mature students who were the most interestng and rewarding to teach.


Yours sincerely,

One of the Most Opinionated Women on Mudcat

Subject: RE: Newcastle Folk Degree - is it any good?
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 02 Nov 07 - 05:42 AM

And from the other most opinionated woman on Mudcat:
Why doesn't anyone read the previous threads (here's the last one) which mushroom annually with monotonous regularity? Or better still, examine the course content?

I really can't be arsed to repeat everything I've written before for the benefit of the wilfully ignorant because they really ought to engage in a smidgeon of basic research themselves. There again, as Ruth says (more or less), these ill-informed whingers probably failed O level in coherent thought. This is just one contribution I made previously:

People might take a moment to read about what the four-year BMus course actually entails. such as course content and entry requirements, before deluging this space with the usual prejudices such as 'we never needed this sort of thing in my day' and 'reading music stops you being a proper trad musician', blah blah . . .

Also they might bear in mind that England is very much behind other countries (not least Scotland and Ireland) as well as Finland and Sweden, in giving equal recognition to traditional as to establishment arts.

The website is a bit crap and I can't link to the actual course page. You have to click through from 'Learning & Participation'.

http://www.thesagegateshead.co.uk/

In short, the Newcastle degree is performance-based and although there are no formal entry requirements, it is unlikely that a student would be admitted were their abilities noticeably below Grade VIII. Additionally, the course provides modules in business elements which equip students with skills relevant to a wide area of expertise. It does not exist to churn out fodder for "f*lk clubs", nor should it. That would be as idiotic as the wholly stupid putdown jeer of those same whingers who decry a catering course for its oriental cuisine element as "degrees in curry-making".

Today, 50% of the population is expected to graduate in something (anything) purely to complete their formal education. If this can be achieved in a subject dear to the student's heart, which they will enjoy and be able to continue throughout their lives whether or not they are actually making their living in a related field, so much the better

Subject: RE: Newcastle Folk Degree - is it any good?
From: synbyn
Date: 02 Nov 07 - 05:54 AM

How nice to be able to agree with an opinionated woman... the last para at least... I'd agree (from without) with doc.tom that the presentational skills are sometimes a bit formulaic, but I suspect that that part is hard to teach. After all, most really proficient musicians have locked themselves up in their bedrooms practising all through their teens (haven't they?)... It need not be for money that they study- it will almost certainly be a lifetime's sustainance..

Subject: RE: Newcastle Folk Degree - is it any good?
From: Rasener
Date: 02 Nov 07 - 05:57 AM

I happen to agree with DE concerning the course. I think its great that this sort of course exists. We, the general public can only benefit by seeing these students as they develope in their musical career. There are such a lot of young excellent musicians out their and its fantastic.
Is it any good? Of course it is.

Subject: RE: Newcastle Folk Degree - is it any good?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 02 Nov 07 - 06:05 AM

One suspects that a liberal interpretation of the purpose of education would find little favour with the Thatcherite element whose voice is still so strong in the English education system. The business/vocational element of the course is obviously a nod in the direction of the late Keith Joseph.

As I say - my area of concern would be that a student would perhaps be in the situation of signing up for Literature course and finding that the teaching staff were all symbolist poets, or beat poets or whatever was 'in' that week.

Folkmusic is bigger than most folksingers allow.

Subject: RE: Newcastle Folk Degree - is it any good?
From: GUEST
Date: 02 Nov 07 - 06:09 AM

Deleted anonymous abusive guest post

Subject: RE: Newcastle Folk Degree - is it any good?
From: mattkeen
Date: 02 Nov 07 - 06:19 AM

That was Diana quote from 2006 when the link did not work - smart arse

Subject: RE: Newcastle Folk Degree - is it any good?
From: mattkeen
Date: 02 Nov 07 - 06:22 AM

My apologies, that should have read "anonymous smart arse".

Subject: RE: Newcastle Folk Degree - is it any good?
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 02 Nov 07 - 06:28 AM

I went along to one of the 'Stars of the Future Nights' last year at The Bridge Hotel Folk Club in which students from the degree course (AKA The Kids from Fame) each do a fifteen minute set which, I believe, goes toward they're final grade. The word was this was the only way they could coerce them into attending local folk clubs.

I was impressed by the overall standard, but dismayed by the general attitude; understandable perhaps in terms of their immaturity / ego / ambition. But whilst ordinarily such premature preening & posturing would have been justifiably scoffed at, the fawning deference shown to them by the local singers was quite sickening to behold, many of whom were only to grateful for this gratis glimpse of future folk celebrity.

Another Monolith in the Corporate Cultural Landscape of what they're now calling NewcastleGateshead.

Subject: RE: Newcastle Folk Degree - is it any good?
From: Santa
Date: 02 Nov 07 - 06:49 AM

Er, isn't Fay Heald (Witchs of Elswick) one of the graduates of the folk degree course? Can't say I've noticed any lack of connection or rapport with the audience there.

As for immaturity/preening/ambition/posturing: sounds like any young muso to me, folk degree or not. It comes from spending too much time by yourself concentrating on your instrument. Not just musicians either, come to think of it.

Subject: RE: Newcastle Folk Degree - is it any good?
From: greg stephens
Date: 02 Nov 07 - 07:32 AM

Diane Easby says "In short, the Newcastle degree is performance-based and although there are no formal entry requirements, it is unlikely that a student would be admitted were their abilities noticeably below Grade VIII".
    I am entirely in favour of university courses to study folk music. But if any such course imposed that sort of entry condition,whether formally or informally, I think it should be closed forthwith until they figured out what they are supposed to be studying. Grade VIII indeed! Some great folk musicians have vast technical ability. Some have virtually none. Or not the sort of abilties measured by that grading system, anyway. The ability to play arpeggios and scales fast and accurately, and to sight read, has about as much relevance to the study of folk music as the height, sex, race or sexual orientation of the candidates.

Subject: RE: Newcastle Folk Degree - is it any good?
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 02 Nov 07 - 07:41 AM

OK. well I should have said "equivalent in performance ability to . . . "
But if a musician is unable to play arpeggios accurately they are going to have a lot of trouble with, for instance, Iron Legs which I know for a fact Greg can play very well.

Oh, and the old prejudice about "proper trad musicians don't sightread" You astonish me, Greg. Sightreading is only a skill which anyone can acquire and jolly useful and timesaving it is too.

Subject: RE: Newcastle Folk Degree - is it any good?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 02 Nov 07 - 07:48 AM

I've looked at the website, but frankly it sends out mixed messages to me.

Some of the contributors and moving spirits seem eclectic enough, but the entrant is crudely asked - do you enjoy playing English/Irish traditional music?

If I hadn't spent my youth in teacher training college with not very clever people working out the meaning of education and precisely why the realities of life in a secondary school were irrelevant to such lofty thoughts, no doubt the icy fingers of foreboding wouldn't be poking me so hard at the moment. Academics are awful people. They can't be trusted with big ideas like education and folk music.

Having said that, I'm glad the Newcastle course is there. Its at very least a step in the right direction.

Subject: RE: Newcastle Folk Degree - is it any good?
From: greg stephens
Date: 02 Nov 07 - 08:29 AM

Diane: I can sight read perfectly well. And play scales and arpeggios, though not as well as when I was student. But I do not regard any of those accomplishments as having any relevance whatsoever to being a folk musician. Leadbelly seemd to manage OK without them, as far as I am aware.It would be fine for the degree course to teach such stuff to those who were interested but never got round to learning: but if, as you say, it is some kind of prerequisite to getting on the course, I would think it a disgraceful betrayal of what folk music is.

Subject: RE: Newcastle Folk Degree - is it any good?
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 02 Nov 07 - 08:31 AM

It wasn't the usual muso vibe though; in that respect I'd have to say the people we saw certainly had their shit together. This was something more akin to maybe Pop Idol - or rather Classical Idol (which has me yearning for the more decorously gauche Young Musician of the Year...)

Celebrity depresses me on any level, aspirant or otherwise; I like my folk like my football: a grey game played on grey days watched by grey people.

Subject: RE: Newcastle Folk Degree - is it any good?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 02 Nov 07 - 08:33 AM

I blame Andy Warhol

Subject: RE: Newcastle Folk Degree - is it any good?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 02 Nov 07 - 08:35 AM

then there was Andy Gray....

Subject: RE: Newcastle Folk Degree - is it any good?
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 02 Nov 07 - 08:41 AM

if, as you say, it is some kind of prerequisite to getting on the course

There are not, as far as I am aware, any hard-and-fast 'prerequisites' for course entry (other than an ability to pay the fees). Prospective students are assesed individually on their merits. Clearly they wil be asked "Do you like playing traditional music?". If they do not, what exactly would be the point of applying for the course?

Subject: RE: Newcastle Folk Degree - is it any good?
From: Rasener
Date: 02 Nov 07 - 08:42 AM

and Derek Dougan....

Subject: RE: Newcastle Folk Degree - is it any good?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 02 Nov 07 - 08:55 AM

how about do you like playing traditional or contemporary folk music.

I used to have a keyboard with an arpegettiator - you played the note and a complicated arpeggio slithered out like a snake - infact you could choose major arppeggios, major 7th and minor and minor 7th.

its one of those techniques only us real musicians wot play contemporary music know about.

I doubt if they'd let you lot buy one.

Subject: RE: Newcastle Folk Degree - is it any good?
From: fiddler
Date: 02 Nov 07 - 08:58 AM

The old reading music hare is runing again - I've just left a dance group where the dance leader castigated the musicians for using dots..

As a child I had my knuckles rapped with the narrow edge of a 12 inch ruler if Miss 'name omitted to protect the guilty' thought I was not reading each and every note and it's pencilled annotations from the paper in front of me - subsequently even when I know a tune I feel totally lost without the obigatory stand and piece of lined paper on it.Hence I rarely go to sessions.

Incidentally the group has actually lost the full band! 6 musicians in one hit, and some dancers.

None all of of us are young enough to have folk degrees but some of us have lived folk music for more years than we care to admit and can perform and appreciate music without a degree. That is important.

I agree too, I always thought the Thatcherite principles were wrong and we do not necceassarily have to provide vocationally based degrees for all. But there again to suggest as the current rulers do that 50% of the community need degrees is totally irrelevant. I have watched the dumbing down of british degrees and the desecration of british HE by a number of administrations ir is sad. Teh Folk degree is one of the bright spots for me even if I don't agree with everything I know about it, it should eb seen as a benefit and a good advert for folk music in general.

I think it is time the English woke up to their heritage in music and dance and all oral traditions. As above the Scots and the Irish have great pride in theirs both of which overlap with ours in some areas and to study such as part of a degree course is a good idea and we get what we get at the end of it.

Sadly Gateshead has been getting clled Newcastle for some time now....More folk Geography courses needed....

nad typping for the folky is very portant 2

Andy

Subject: RE: Newcastle Folk Degree - is it any good?
From: greg stephens
Date: 02 Nov 07 - 09:02 AM

Diane: I know you didn't say Grade VIII was a "hard and fast prequisite" of getting on the course. But you did say prospective students would be unlikely to be admitted if they didn't reach that standard.I am merely pointing out that the people who made the name we call it by would not necessarily have reached that standard, or anything like it.That standard exists to measure a completely different kind of ability, which is fun to possess, but not wildly relevant. If anybody disagrees with me, check out what you have to do to pass Grade VIII and figure out how that applies to Harry Cox or Woody Guthrie.

Subject: RE: Newcastle Folk Degree - is it any good?
From: The Sandman
Date: 02 Nov 07 - 09:16 AM

I think this course is important,as are comhaltas examinations.
they are a useful focus,but they dont necessarily mean ,that when one has completed the course,that one has arrived as a traditional musician,they are just a starting point.
the best experience for traditional musicians,is to listen to source musicians /singers[in whatever genre,be it MissippiJohnHurt,RoscoeHolcomb,HarryCox,orElizabethCronin]then to go out and learn on the job,.
Stage craft can be learned from watching others[not necesarrily traditional musicians],
These courses are good,but they are just a beginning for the participants.Dick Miles

Subject: RE: Newcastle Folk Degree - is it any good?
From: Dave Sutherland
Date: 02 Nov 07 - 09:20 AM

When I was talking to one of the girls out of Crosscurrents, one of the bands to emerge from the course, about three years ago when they were playing in South Shields she told me that "a musical qualification" was essential for entry to the course. Has this changed? It was mainly some of the mature students that I was in contact with offering some help with the history of the North East folk scene for their theory work.

Subject: RE: Newcastle Folk Degree - is it any good?
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 02 Nov 07 - 09:23 AM

No one in the North East confuses Gateshead with Newcastle; they are distinct and entirely separate entities, divided by The Tyne, and no matter how many bridges they've built over the years, they are no closer today than than they were a hundred years ago when, having arrived on the Newcastle quayside from far across the sea, some wag looked south across the Tyne and said: "How far away England looks from here."

But who the hell came up NewcastleGateshead?

Subject: RE: Newcastle Folk Degree - is it any good?
From: GUEST,baz parkes
Date: 02 Nov 07 - 09:39 AM

I don't know if it's any good....but I'd probably rather have done it than a joint degree in English and History....

baz

Subject: RE: Newcastle Folk Degree - is it any good?
From: mattkeen
Date: 02 Nov 07 - 09:48 AM

Course its good

Subject: RE: Newcastle Folk Degree - is it any good?
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 02 Nov 07 - 09:51 AM

As the study of folk music has always been an academic pursuit, one would think the degree course would follow on in that tradition - something more along the lines of Ethnomusicology, which is to say as an academic discipline, rather than a vocational one, given that actual folk music has never been that easy to quantify or qualify given its social / human context. I remember an old friend who was doing the post-grad Ethomusicology course at Durham telling me of the fun she was having trying to transcribe a field-recording she'd made of an amateur Barber Shop Quartet from Hartlepool.

More of this, one would have thought, would be useful, by way of collecting, cataloging, analysing and generally documenting a music which endures very often in the cultural hinterlands - certainly beyond the remit of the likes of Folkworks, whom, I believe, we have to thank for the degree course, determindly churning out its 'Stars of the Future.'

Subject: RE: Newcastle Folk Degree - is it any good?
From: GUEST,Bridger
Date: 02 Nov 07 - 09:58 AM

Sedayne what are you talking about?

Subject: RE: Newcastle Folk Degree - is it any good?
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 02 Nov 07 - 09:59 AM

Dick wrote:

"the best experience for traditional musicians,is to listen to source musicians /singers"

which the Newcastle students do.

Subject: RE: Newcastle Folk Degree - is it any good?
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 02 Nov 07 - 10:04 AM

They do. And all the stuff Sedayne is chuntering on about, but not to the exclusion of performance. The course is performance-based. Look at the course structure before telling the students they should be doing something else. If they wanted to be archivists or field recordists or ethomusicologists exclusively they would be studying elsewhere.

Subject: RE: Newcastle Folk Degree - is it any good?
From: greg stephens
Date: 02 Nov 07 - 10:05 AM

I am glad they manage to find a little time away from the arpeggio practises, to listen to a bit of folk music.

Subject: RE: Newcastle Folk Degree - is it any good?
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 02 Nov 07 - 10:14 AM

Sorry, I think the diarrhoea must be infecting my writing, in which I'll accept Diane's Chuntering as another euphemism (see other thread).

Anyone on this thread actually been on, or doing, the course by the way?

Subject: RE: Newcastle Folk Degree - is it any good?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 02 Nov 07 - 10:16 AM

A geordie bloke I was at college with reckoned Gateshead women had the price written on the soles of their shoes whereas Newcastle lasses were more discreet - just folk legend?

Subject: RE: Newcastle Folk Degree - is it any good?
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 02 Nov 07 - 10:20 AM

No, no. Not Gateshead. North Shields.
Does anyone know what Sedayne's talking about?

Subject: RE: Newcastle Folk Degree - is it any good?
From: TheSnail
Date: 02 Nov 07 - 10:20 AM

weelittledrummer was being a little selective in his quoatation when he said "the entrant is crudely asked - do you enjoy playing English/Irish traditional music?

The full context is -

Do you enjoy listening to different types of music?
The most important factor in choosing whether to study music is - are you interested in the subject? Do you enjoy:


performing traditional music from Britain and/or Ireland?
listening to different types of music?
finding out more about musical influences and origins?
going to concerts and other music performances?
understanding how culture and identity relate to music?

If you can answer 'yes' to these, then this could be the degree for you!

Subject: RE: Newcastle Folk Degree - is it any good?
From: Peace
Date: 02 Nov 07 - 10:26 AM

One of the great pleasures of Mudcat are the posts made by people like Malcolm, Q, Jim Dixon, Masato, Joe Offer (and some others whose names have slipped me at this moment). Their research into song origins and the ways songs have changed over the years has been an education for me. Surely a university degree will mean little if the recipient has just a piece of paper with Latin words on it. But most will come out having earned a good degree with diligence and study, and that will be a good thing for the future of the music. People are wont to quote that old saw about 'those who do not learn from history . . .'. Well, the people at Newcastle will be. They are the ones who will ensure that it is not forgotten. Their resaerch will enlighten generations to come. So once again, surely . . . .

Subject: RE: Newcastle Folk Degree - is it any good?
From: Dave Sutherland
Date: 02 Nov 07 - 10:28 AM

WLD - Bigg Market, Newcastle (the old Bigg Market) and Pink Lane

Subject: RE: Newcastle Folk Degree - is it any good?
From: johnadams
Date: 02 Nov 07 - 10:37 AM

Of course they listen to folk music. It's cost me and Chris a soddin' fortune in CDRs giving the students access to bits of our now deleted vinyl collection.

And quite a few record collections have gone their way - the late Sid Long's stuff went up there for one.

Some of the students have a real curiosity about sources and source singers. Some of them try specialise in and research their own regional music.

Others end up being derivative and lacking in sparkle. It takes all sorts. It's a degree. Some will get 1st class honours and some might scrape a third or even fail.

J

Subject: RE: Newcastle Folk Degree - is it any good?
From: Banjiman
Date: 02 Nov 07 - 10:45 AM

I have emailed someone who is currently on the course to come and add some informed opinion to this thread....hopefully if they are not too busy out playing (folk?) music they might join the discussion.

Paul

Subject: RE: Newcastle Folk Degree - is it any good?
From: GUEST,Russ
Date: 02 Nov 07 - 12:08 PM

In the states it seems that "traditional" refers more to a process than a repertoire or style.

This approach is exemplied by the West Virginia Folk Art Apprenticeship Program.

http://www.augustaheritage.com/about.html#The_Apprenticeship_Program

Subject: RE: Newcastle Folk Degree - is it any good?
From: GUEST,The Ballad of The Bold Researcher
Date: 02 Nov 07 - 01:03 PM

the short answer to the question posed is....some people think so

Subject: RE: Newcastle Folk Degree - is it any good?
From: Rasener
Date: 02 Nov 07 - 01:16 PM

I wish I could have done that when I was young. Lucky buggers.

Subject: RE: Newcastle Folk Degree - is it any good?
From: GUEST,The Ballad of The Bold Researcher
Date: 02 Nov 07 - 01:54 PM

the only people I've ever heard say the "real folk musicians don't sight read" are the ones who can't, personally it struck and strikes me that there is more that a bit of jealousy there....Does this mean that because I can actually sight read that I'm not a "REAL MUSICIAN".......oh dear.... :-D *LOL*

Subject: RE: Newcastle Folk Degree - is it any good?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 02 Nov 07 - 02:16 PM

no the real problem is that the important guitarists (Django, Hendrix, Jansch) are largely musically illiterate.

Some like Django and Bert dallied with learning notation, and it seemed to subtract rather than add.

Musical literacy is important for ensemble playing - but the geniuses, the wildcards like Bix Beiderbeck and Lightning Hopkins - seemed better without that stuff in their heads.

its best left to the individual. no blame one way or the other.

Subject: RE: Newcastle Folk Degree - is it any good?
From: Peace
Date: 02 Nov 07 - 02:22 PM

Good one, Al.

Subject: RE: Newcastle Folk Degree - is it any good?
From: stallion
Date: 02 Nov 07 - 02:46 PM

Ok Steve Thompson doesn't read music, I don't, Martin Bartlett reads it to violin and voice, Anna Shannon does it to a plethora of instruments, I even watched her write a melody on a manuscript (whilst ironing) and then play it after it was finished (the ironing) I am in awe of people with that ability and skill and a tad envious, as to the folk degree I vowed to keep an open mind, but if anyone is listening from that establishment try teaching charisma or maybe weed out the wannabe celebrity's maybe that's bollocks, maybe the folk world needs wannabe celebs, I don't know.

Subject: RE: Newcastle Folk Degree - is it any good?
From: GUEST,Paul D
Date: 02 Nov 07 - 02:55 PM

I thought I would just give you my take on the course; which may be a bit bias as I started it about five weeks ago. I am a mature student, so first of all it isn't all about kids; there are four of us oldies in this year's intake. I started because it is a wonderful way to learn about a subject dear to my heart, have music tuition from some fantastic musicians; a previous comment mentioned some of the full time lectures but on top of that there are guest lecturers all the time too many to mention. For me the highlights are lectures from really interesting people who have first hand experience of our living traditions.

I do not agree with the previous comment about stage presents or the 'rising stars' tag. I have found all my fellow students a group of people who are enthusiastic and enjoy making music and I have not seen any egos that need putting in place. (as yet). Remember the 'Rising stars' nights are something we all are strongly (and rightly) encouraged to take part in, as part of developing and gaining performance experience; what was seen that night may have had more to do with nerves than anything else. The previous comment said that the word was that the students had to be coerce into attending local folk cubs, Oh so not true, many of my fellow student go to the Bridge most weeks alas not me as I have a mandolin lesson on Tuesdays so stay in and practise but I have been to other sessions ( when work load permits, and it is hard work) ect and there is always a spattering there.

In conclusion is it a good course? For me, I have only been here for five weeks I am learning so much and met some interesting and great people. I think that a course like this is not only about the academic content but also about skilled practitioners passing on their skill and knowledge of our tradition to the next generation.

PS The villan. Don't wish, do

(I wish I could have done that when I was young. Lucky buggers)


Paul

Subject: RE: Newcastle Folk Degree - is it any good?
From: Peace
Date: 02 Nov 07 - 03:31 PM

Paul D, congratulations.

I went to university to take a degree when I was 34 years old (mature student) after having failed both grades 10 (made up in summer school) and 11 in high school 18 years previous. I went to school when I WANTED to learn and learn I did. (Ended up getting the degree annotated "with distinction".)

It's wonderful that you have chosen to pursue something you love to begin with and will learn to love more as your studies progress. Keep well.

Subject: RE: Newcastle Folk Degree - is it any good?
From: Rasener
Date: 02 Nov 07 - 03:33 PM

Well Paul, as I don't play or sing or understand music, I don't think I would get in LOL
Doesn't stop me wishing I could though :-)

Subject: RE: Newcastle Folk Degree - is it any good?
From: GUEST,Paul D
Date: 02 Nov 07 - 04:32 PM

Like you four and a half years ago I was whishing and not playing anything but then I was lucky enough to be made redundant and then the start of my musical journey

Paul D

Subject: RE: Newcastle Folk Degree - is it any good?
From: Wild Flying Dove
Date: 02 Nov 07 - 04:36 PM

I know someone on the 2nd year of the course and they're having a great time and learning lots - as evidenced by their improved playing, singing and confidence. I can't think of anything better than to be learning to play and sing, regardless of whether it gets you anywhere in the future etc etc. It's clearly a great experience and I for one am quite jealous of anyone who is able to dedicate 3 years of their life to learning to play /sing & perform folk music & song.

Subject: RE: Newcastle Folk Degree - is it any good?
From: Rasener
Date: 02 Nov 07 - 05:04 PM

Paul
I could see my wife and children letting me go up to Newcastle.
Les

Subject: RE: Newcastle Folk Degree - is it any good?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 02 Nov 07 - 05:55 PM

Maybe if I ever get to retire....

Subject: RE: Newcastle Folk Degree - is it any good?
From: Tootler
Date: 02 Nov 07 - 05:58 PM

Perhaps it would help if people actually looked at Newcastle University's website before pronouncing on this course. It might then avoid some of the misinformation that has been posted.

The information many seek can be found at www.ncl.ac.uk/sacs/undergrad/degrees/w340.htm
.

For example the entry requirements are stated as 3 grade B's at A-level including music.

There is a link to the course modules on the page, though there seems to be a bug at the moment. The other links are working though.

I go to the Sage to their Caedmon folk classes and to other Folkworks workshops on a regular basis and have met (and know) a number of both recent graduates and current students from the course and the descriptions above do not fit any of those I know. Yes they are talented, but mostly they wear it lightly and don't look down on others or display "artistic temperament". In fact they are a refreshingly normal bunch of people who just happen to love folk music.

Newcastle are careful to claim the course is the first in England but I actually think they were ahead of the rest of the UK.

Not long after it started, I did a check through the UCAS website on other courses involving folk and traditional music and there was nothing in the UK quite like the Newcastle course. A couple of Scottish Universities offered traditional music as an option on a standard BMus, but usually later on in the course. Things have changed since then, I believe.

Subject: RE: Newcastle Folk Degree - is it any good?
From: The Sandman
Date: 02 Nov 07 - 06:35 PM

Well that rules me out,I have no qualifacations whatsoever,apart from playing the music for forty years.Dick Miles

Subject: RE: Newcastle Folk Degree - is it any good?
From: GUEST,Paul D
Date: 02 Nov 07 - 06:47 PM

The folk degree entry requirements are bit more flexable. I have no 'A' levels, to get in I did an OU access course, played an audition and was set an essay to write.

Paul D

Subject: RE: Newcastle Folk Degree - is it any good?
From: GUEST,GUEST - folk degree student
Date: 03 Nov 07 - 12:25 PM

As a student in my fourth and final year of the folk degree, someone invited me onto this forum to give a reaction to your discussion. Well, I'd like to, but so far I've re-written my response about five times, and haven't managed to get it under 1,000,000 words!

I'm saddened by the negativity towards the degree, and us students, from some of you. I suspect some of it stems from ignorance of the way the degree works - even how university in general works these days. There's a lot of confusion about how one goes about 'studying music' - any music - and I understand why it would be treated with suspicion. I also think that the reason behind some of your negativity is jealousy - because let's face it, if you could spend as much time playing music, performing, and being taught one-on-one by your favourite musicians, you'd grab the chance with both hands, as we have done. I know some successful, professional folk performers who wish they could suspend touring, promoting and recording in order to just enjoy their music in an intensive environment for a few years!

Many of your comments seem quite alien to me - we don't see what we're doing like that at all. Maybe if you talked to us and asked us, instead of assuming, what we think of our 'position' within the folk scene, what we expect to gain from the degree, and how we compare ourselves to musicians who haven't studied on it, you would be able to make a more rounded judgement of us. I don't know anyone here studying with a view to being a professional performer who DOESN'T want to be judged against every other performer out there, on their own merits and skills and ability, regardless of whether or not they have that bit of paper. We don't think that having a degree makes us better musicians, but we would hope that four years of intensive playing, under the guidance of brilliant performers, would.

Even though I generalise here, I also have to say that I don't think there is an example of the 'typical' student performer - everyone here is very different, and pursuing his or her own path. Almost all musicians are influenced by more than just the one genre they play in, and so our individual influences come into play as well. The idea of some sort of 'carbon copy' performer being punched out after four years is a notion circled by people who haven't heard or seen enough of us perform to make a valid judgement.

The weird thing about this course is that, even though we all want something for our efforts - ie, our degree, because after all we've worked for it - most people are here just to learn. To take everything they can from brilliant teachers, to meet like-minded people and network with others on the scene, to indulge in the fact that they are lucky enough to be able to spend this much time playing the music they love, and to discover where that music comes from and what about it is still relevant today. There are very few degrees where this is the case, anymore - the government treats university simply as a ticket to better things, not an experience to be valued for its own sake. The folk degree, for this reason, is a rare and brilliant thing, and I don't mind adding: it's the best thing I've ever done!

The course is not perfect - neither are the teachers, and neither are the students. But why do you care? Your turn to care is when ex-students start turning up to play at concert venues and festivals, and you are subjected to our music. Then, you can make a judgement about us based solely on how good or bad we are, the same as you would anybody else.

Subject: RE: Newcastle Folk Degree - is it any good?
From: greg stephens
Date: 03 Nov 07 - 12:41 PM

Thank you very much to the actual students and tutors who have added their comments here. More please! Here are a couple of questiobs.
What particularly interests me is the sort of people on the course. (1) What proportion are there to study folk music as a subject worthy of study, and what proportion are studying with a view to being a performer? I believe both types of course are available, though I might be wrong.
(2)Also, while I see that the study of recordings of traditional perfomers is an activity everyone indulges in, how about studying with actual traditional performers in the flesh?(I use the term "traditonal" here obviously in the sens of "as opposed to revival", not as in "performer of traditional material").
(3) Also, could a student or tutor actually comment on a bone of contention earlier. Is a certain technical standard of performance expected as a condition of entry to the course?(eg something akin to the classical grades. A figure of VIII was quoted earlier).Do people on the course think a considerable technical proficiency is necessary, or only desirable?

Subject: RE: Newcastle Folk Degree - is it any good?
From: Rasener
Date: 03 Nov 07 - 02:13 PM

>>I'm saddened by the negativity towards the degree, and us students<<

Hey Folk Degree Student, don't be saddened. You are very lucky to be on such a course. Make the most of it. Your the winner.
The people who are negative are either jealous or just whinging old gits. Thats the folk world LOL

Subject: RE: Newcastle Folk Degree - is it any good?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 03 Nov 07 - 02:18 PM

I am surprised that the student above (and more power to his elbow) has felt he needed to address the performance aspect of the course to the exclusion of the ethnomusicological aspect, which I suspect underpins the development of relevant performance skills. Otherwise, why is it a folk music course rather than any other type of music course?

Am I right?

(WMD, I know your view!)

Subject: RE: Newcastle Folk Degree - is it any good?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 03 Nov 07 - 02:32 PM

Well if warning bells weren't sounding before, they sure as hell ought to be now! I suppose the certitude, moral complacency and arrogance won't surprise many who have dealings with the traddy community. In so many ways they will fit your requirements like a glove, Richard. Nevertheless I can think of no University other than Oxbridge that so successfully implants that feeling they are Gods gift.

"Your turn to care is when ex-students start turning up to play at concert venues and festivals, and you are subjected to our music."

Sadly that is already the case.

Subject: RE: Newcastle Folk Degree - is it any good?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 03 Nov 07 - 02:52 PM

What's wrong with their music Al? They are all different, no? Most or many of them have some sense of this contry's tradition. Is that your complaint?

Why do you only want people who play your music? It isn't even yours - not criticising your performances, which are masterly, but it's purely American in its origin. Why do you want this country's music to be imported? Why do you object to THIS country's music being infused with new ideas (some better than others, but that's how music grows and evolves).

We HAVE to get together and see what our opposed ideologies can create! Might it be as successful as Davy Graham's theory that Irish traditional music drew from the orient? I'm afraid you'll have to do the technically competent bits. Or should we go down the pub and forget it?

We are rightly concerned at the diminution of the gene pool in animals, in plants. Surely we should be concerned to preserve the gene pool in music too, and to continue to find applications for the old ways.

We do it in herbal medicine. There are modern applications for curare. We do it in literature - we still study Shakespeare (I hate Shakespeare but that's not the point).

Student is right, as far as he goes. His work can be judged when it appears. Since you don't know who he is you cannot criticise his music - yet.

Oh - and as far as God's gift goes: -

(1) You already know about law grads from Nottingham University, too!

(2) "Gift" is german for "poison".

Subject: RE: Newcastle Folk Degree - is it any good?
From: greg stephens
Date: 03 Nov 07 - 02:53 PM

WLD: you don't half hate trad folk music, don't you? Were you scared by a fidler at an impressionable age? Don't you think there's room in the world for all sorts of music?

Subject: RE: Newcastle Folk Degree - is it any good?
From: Rasener
Date: 03 Nov 07 - 03:56 PM

>>Don't you think there's room in the world for all sorts of music? <<

I think Big Al is all for that.

>>WLD: you don't half hate trad folk music, don't you?<<

Surely its the other way round. Trad folk people can't get it into their heads that there is room for all sorts of music.

Big Al is a very good performer and is liked very much at Faldingworth nuff said.

I'll get me variety coat.

Subject: RE: Newcastle Folk Degree - is it any good?
From: Peace
Date: 03 Nov 07 - 06:15 PM

Dear folk degree student. Congratulations. I have often heard people slagging the various Arts degrees that are available here in Canada. A degree is a degree. Some will enable people to go do other things, and some will be wasted. Much like certifications in various trades. Hang in there and enjoy your time. I wish you every success.

Subject: RE: Newcastle Folk Degree - is it any good?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 03 Nov 07 - 07:50 PM

No, Villan, I do get fed up with that. And I made the point of expressing my honest admiration for WMD's performances (it's just they are not folk).

I for one will defend many types of music - I just want folk music to be called folk music, and not have other stuff called folk music. I prefer much traddish sort of stuff, but among my favourite bands/performers are Budgie, Ten Years After, various of the John Mayall bands, the Steve Miller Band, Blue Oyster Cult, James Brown, Howlin Wolf, (early) Pink Floyd, (early) Stones - although with exception of Howlin Wolf none are folk music.

Subject: RE: Newcastle Folk Degree - is it any good?
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 04 Nov 07 - 12:07 AM

.. i just wish

[bollocks, i promised a very well respected admin here
i would not post on weekends when i am nicely cidered up]

there was a similar college course in bristol or bridgwater

or even weston super mare
[now the new uni campus is opening soon..]

sod all the sancimonious old trurd folkies and the all other peculiar deranged f@lkwits..






each corner of the brit ilse needs a similar college course..


maybe at risk of getting a bit too paraochial..
but fuck it ..
one folky uni cousre well up north in the freezing cold lands

is not enough today in the 21st century

..and maybe bath uni could do world music in acordance with womad and gurt old mr gabriels studio..

thank you for reading.. g'night

Subject: RE: Newcastle Folk Degree - is it any good?
From: greg stephens
Date: 04 Nov 07 - 04:14 AM

Villan: in my experience people who like trad folk music tend to like vast amounts of other music. But WLD, at least on the evidence of his posts here, is actually hostile to trad folk music.Which is fine, there's no accounting for tastes, but it does make you wonder why he spends time on a folk music forum.

Subject: RE: Newcastle Folk Degree - is it any good?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 04 Nov 07 - 05:35 AM

I think that WLD is probably more hostile to trad folkies than to trad folk, but that the concepts get intertwined.

And of course, his view would be that it is what he does that is folk, because more people listen to it therefore it is the music of the people, hence folk. His view would be that what traddies do is some elitist thing that excludes the folk, and therefore is not folk. He therefore goes beyond the "horse" argument.

And he likes a good argument, I think!

Subject: RE: Newcastle Folk Degree - is it any good?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 04 Nov 07 - 05:45 AM

I'm not hostile at all to 'traditional' folk music at all and have spent much of my life listening to it and thinking about it.

Read the 'folkies' thread. And they have this picture of themselves as being a great group of nice guys. I think almost the opposite is the case.

They turn with ferocity on their own - look at the shit Ewan MacColl's family would find slung at Ewan if they looked through mudcat. Look the Davy Graham thread - just for doing a few shit gigs (the actual lifetime of his achievement is recorded in every English guitarists fingers).

And worst of all they aren't interested in folk, that is to say - people. All they give a shit about is this tiny library of what they are pleased to regard as the folk songs of England. Great if you're the Copper family - but what about all the other families.

For about six years my principle source of revenue was gigging in old peoples homes. The old people used to ask me for all sorts of songs, and songs from artists I'd never heard of. We are an incredibly musical nation. The soul and creativity of this nation has not been channeled through this tiny clump of folksongs for a long time.

My grandparents era was best summed up by the work of Dave and Al Sealey (Cosmotheka). They used to sing many of the songs my grandparents knew. Now Bob abd Al have finished, theres nobody even connecting with the era that recent (1850's 1930's).

Similarly, do you remember the shit you had to go through when you told your parents generation you were going to live with your girlfriend, rather than get married. Where are the folksongs about how the family structures have changed. And our society generally.

I was watching Folk Britannia last night til four and was quaintly amused by Ewan and Billy Bragg - giving their 'two legs good, four legs bad' account of the miners strike. The songs they were writing SO misunderstood what was going on. Their songs didn't spring from the communities, like say Tommy Armstrong's did. I'm not saying sing Tommy Armstrong - I'm saying look at your own world, take off your 'traddy' glasses - just now and then, for a start.

Sing folksongs about real folks! Ones that you know!

Look at the write a lincolnshire folksong bit on Radio Lincolnshire's website. There is a great song about a corrupt politician, and this year it was won with aong about a larcenous Lincolnshire barmaid. It can be done! Maybe not in Newcastle University for a while.

Subject: RE: Newcastle Folk Degree - is it any good?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 04 Nov 07 - 06:09 AM

Sorry about Dave Sealey turning into Bob within a sentence. Its staying up late watching telly that does the damage!

Subject: RE: Newcastle Folk Degree - is it any good?
From: TheSnail
Date: 04 Nov 07 - 06:11 AM

weelittledrummer

I'm not hostile at all to 'traditional' folk music at all and have spent much of my life listening to it and thinking about it.

Previously - (I know I've quoted it before, but it's so good.)

I think 'traditional' music is a load of bullshit. An insult to my intellect. Nobody handed this pile of rubbish down to me.

Subject: RE: Newcastle Folk Degree - is it any good?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 04 Nov 07 - 06:12 AM

Actually, Al, the quote from Orwell is "Four legs good, two legs bad"

It was the pigs who changed it to "Four legs good, two legs better".

As to the miner's strike, Thatcher deliberately set out to smash union power, so that she could make her rich middle class friends (the daughter of a grocer) richer by enabling them to command the lower classes.   That's not simply opinion. She also made in a different context a head-on attack on the possibility of local government providing a platform for views opposed to her own, and destroyed the UK independent TV infrastrucure simply to enable her to take Thames' franchise away for the "Death on the Rock" documentary.

You need to start by appreciating that a folk song differs from a pop song.

Subject: RE: Newcastle Folk Degree - is it any good?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 04 Nov 07 - 06:41 AM

Yes and I think Snail if you read my posts you will find that they aren't actually contradictory.

Traditional music is a good idea - someone should try it. preferably in a style that doesn't insult your intelligence. I damn well know whether something is my family has been involved in the last hundred and fifty years ago. it is emphatically NOT what was handed down to me, or many other people.

Richard is brighter than both of us wrapped up together, and I take his nitpicking appraoch as a concession that I am 'onto' something. Thatcher was bonkers, who knows what her intentions were. And who gives a shit how many legs were better.

the broad thrust of the argument is the same. I have a feeling if I saw Richard perform I wouldn't forget it in a while, unlike the lot I alluded to earler, whose degrees were their most memorable feature.

Subject: RE: Newcastle Folk Degree - is it any good?
From: GUEST,Paul D
Date: 04 Nov 07 - 06:54 AM

I would like to reiterate something that guest folk degree student said,

most people are here just to learn. To take everything they can from brilliant teachers, to meet like-minded people.

I agree whole heartedly, for me the fact that hopefully a bit of paper arrives at the end of the course is not the point, the four years spent in association and learning from great musicians is.

Also to answer.

Is a certain technical standard of performance expected as a condition of entry to the course?
Because this is a folk music course it is excepted that some of us students come at music from a deferent angle to that of classical music, so grades are not an essential but there is an audition and you do need to be fairly proficient on your instrument; if for no other reason you will be playing with other students all the time if you are not able to keep up it is hard. My playing is not at the highest level, I have only been playing for four years, but the emphasis is not on were you are, but on improving, growing and learning. This year's class has a wide mix, from people that I have seen performing already to me; each one gets something different from the course.

Paul D

Subject: RE: Newcastle Folk Degree - is it any good?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 04 Nov 07 - 07:28 AM

Yes Al, I sometimes get paid to go away!

Subject: RE: Newcastle Folk Degree - is it any good?
From: TheSnail
Date: 04 Nov 07 - 07:46 AM

weelittledrummer

Yes and I think Snail if you read my posts you will find that they aren't actually contradictory.

It must just be me. I expect everybody else can see it.

Traditional music is a good idea - someone should try it. preferably in a style that doesn't insult your intelligence.

When were you last in a traditional club WLD? Come and see us sometime.

And, yes, if you heard Richard sing, you'd drop all this crap instantly.

Subject: RE: Newcastle Folk Degree - is it any good?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 04 Nov 07 - 08:47 AM

Snail, who are you? PM me - I'm sure no-one ought to put me forward as a singer's singer, and I need all the flattery I can get!

Subject: RE: Newcastle Folk Degree - is it any good?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 04 Nov 07 - 09:51 AM

I'm not enjoying the best of health at the moment Snail, but thankyou for your kind invitation to Lewes. I would love to come to your club. And I'm sure I'd appreciate the music there; I usually do most places. Maybe some point down the line.

Just from your posts Richard, I can tell you put more thought and imagination into what you do, than most. That sort of committment is always worth a listen.

Subject: RE: Newcastle Folk Degree - is it any good?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 04 Nov 07 - 03:22 PM

I am happy to be able to report, having checked, that it wasn't me after all. Grin!

Subject: RE: Newcastle Folk Degree - is it any good?
From: TheSnail
Date: 04 Nov 07 - 04:45 PM

After a private exchange, I can confirm that the person pointed out to me as Richard Bridge was, in fact, an ENTIRELY DIFFERENT PERSON. Whoever he is, he is a living demonstration that there are some bloody good "traditional" singers around despite the pathetic image that WLD paints. For the time being I will have to take it on trust that the real Richard Bridge is just as good. I hope to hear you sometime, Richard.

Subject: RE: Newcastle Folk Degree - is it any good?
From: Trainer54
Date: 05 Nov 07 - 03:46 AM

Getting back to point, I'd like to know why Acorn54 asked the original question. If s/he would care to PM me, I'd be interested to know.

Subject: RE: Newcastle Folk Degree - is it any good?
From: GUEST,The Ballad of The Bold Researcher
Date: 05 Nov 07 - 12:49 PM

"Only three people understood the Schleswig-Holstein Question. The first was Albert, the Prince consort and he is dead; the second is a German professor, and he is in an asylum: and the third was myself - and I have forgotten it." - Lord Palmerston



Happy Guy Fawkes Day! :-)

Subject: RE: Newcastle Folk Degree - is it any good?
From: GUEST,Guest Oak
Date: 29 Jan 08 - 04:52 AM

Three students (out of 18 I believe)have now left the first year of the course 2007-2008. It does seem a fairly high attrition rate. How does it compare with other degrees, music degrees etc. Does anyone know?

Subject: RE: Newcastle Folk Degree - is it any good?
From: Folkiedave
Date: 29 Jan 08 - 05:30 AM

Since you are not sure how many students are on the course it is a bit hard to tell.

Subject: RE: Newcastle Folk Degree - is it any good?
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 29 Jan 08 - 06:24 AM

The sample is statistically insignificant anyway, so you can't compare.

Subject: RE: Newcastle Folk Degree - is it any good?
From: GUEST
Date: 29 Jan 08 - 06:34 AM

"Does anyone know?"

As a percentage it may seem high, but with such a specific degree there will inevitably be people who find it's not for them. Three students from a single cohort doesn't seem that high - when I was teaching at uni the first years - across all the humanities disciplines - were dropping like flies.

When I was at a uni the first time round, at a theatre conservatoire in the States, we lost 15 out of a cohort of 30 in the first year. Lots of reasons - people decided it wasn't for them, too much pressure, too specialised, and sometimes just sheer bone idleness.

Subject: RE: Newcastle Folk Degree - is it any good?
From: Banjiman
Date: 29 Jan 08 - 06:41 AM

Surely the ultimate proof of the value of this degree is the quality of music being produced by the graduates. Have a listen here to two of them and judge for yourselves:
Kathryn Davidson & Dan Walsh

Subject: RE: Newcastle Folk Degree - is it any good?
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 29 Jan 08 - 07:43 AM

It's not proof as I don't know what they were like before.

I've seen/heard one person before he went on this course and a couple of times (2nd or 3rd year now, I think) since and in the session environment where I've seen him, it's not clear to me by listening what the course has done for him. He was a bloody good player before...

In his case (and I've not had the chance to ask him), the assessment I'd be most interested in is his own. Perhaps some might not regard a student's own assessment, but in terms of what he's gained, I feel it would be more reasonable and accurate than any I'm capable of making by listening.

Subject: RE: Newcastle Folk Degree - is it any good?
From: Banjiman
Date: 29 Jan 08 - 07:49 AM

Guest,Jon See this post for a students own assessment:

Subject: RE: Newcastle Folk Degree - is it any good?
From: GUEST,GUEST - folk degree student - PM
Date: 03 Nov 07 - 12:25 PM

Subject: RE: Newcastle Folk Degree - is it any good?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 29 Jan 08 - 07:56 AM

Nah, 3 dropouts out of 18 is peanuts.

Subject: RE: Newcastle Folk Degree - is it any good?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 29 Jan 08 - 08:55 AM

I quite like that Davidson stuff. I don't get English performers doing American material, but the banjo sounds like a musical instrument and that is an improvement on many. I hate pianos but this one is not as bad as many. Nice guitar sound when used. Pleasant vocal quality, could do with a bit more "pressure". Good pitch.

My favourite track would be the unaccompanied one.

Subject: RE: Newcastle Folk Degree - is it any good?
From: GUEST,Guest
Date: 29 Jan 08 - 01:19 PM

'3 dropouts out of 18 is peanuts.'


The 3 (Sam Sweeney, Hazel Askew and Ruth Notman as far as i know) have newly released albums. Their early exits' may owe to this perhaps?

Subject: RE: Newcastle Folk Degree - is it any good?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 29 Jan 08 - 01:50 PM

Nothing to do with the course being pants then (which I don't think it is)?