BS: American Pies-Questions & Answers.

Subject: RE: BS: American Pies-Questions & Answers.
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 26 Nov 07 - 03:21 PM

SWEET POTATO PONE

4 cups raw yams
2 cups molasses or dark corn syrup
1 cup brown sugar
1 teaspoon cinnamon
1 cup warm milk

Mix ingredients; pour into greased baking dish. Bake in moderate oven until nice crust forms on top (about 45 minutes). Serve hot with unsweetened cream, plain or whipped.

Consider this a pie without crust.
Sweet Pone was a great white trash favorite.

Ernest Matthew Mickler, 1986 and reprints, "White Trash Cooking," p. 99.

PLAIN OL' POTATO PONE
(can be modified and put in pie shell if desired)

1 cup milk
3 medium-size sweet potatoes
1 cup molasses
2 teaspoons cinammon
3 eggs
1/4 stick oleomargerine

Bake sweet potatoes (yams) or use leftovers. Take off skins and mash them up. To the potatoes, add all other ingredients. Mix well and put in an iron skillet and bake at 350 F for 25-30 minutes.
Now this is a real pone. "Dig in and make yourself at home- if you ain't, you oughta be."
A favorite of Betty Sue Swilley.
Recipe from "White Trash Cooking," p. 99.

Harper Lee, author of "To Kill a Mocking Bird," called this book a sociological document of beauty. "... with two generations of prosperity white trash looks like gentry- we've long needed something other than the ballot box to remind us of their presence. "White Trash Cooking" is a beautiful testament to a stubborn people of proud and poignant heritage" (written in 1886).

Subject: RE: BS: American Pies-Questions & Answers.
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 26 Nov 07 - 02:54 PM

WHITE TRASH LEMON PIE

Especially for Foolestroupe

1 large can condensed milk (Pet or eq.)
1 cup sugar
1 can Eagle Brand condensed milk (thick and sweet)
3/4 cup Real Lemon lemon juice or eq. (bottled)

Chill the Pet milk thoroughly, then whip. Add sweet condensed milk and sugar. Add lemon juice. Mix.
Pour into Sue Ella Lightfoot's Graham cracker crust and chill. Makes two 9-inch pies.

Sue Ella's GRAHAM CRACKER CRUST

Mash up Graham crackers with a fork. Mix with oleomargerine until all stuck together. Press into pie pan. Fill with mixture.

(Ef yer feelin' ritzy, use Oreo's fer the crust (lick off the fillin' fust)).

Ernest Matthew Mickler, 1986 and many reprints, "White Trash Cooking," Jargon Society, p. 107 (filling), p. 110 (crust).

Subject: RE: BS: American Pies-Questions & Answers.
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 26 Nov 07 - 08:10 AM

Buy 2 premade shortcrust pastry shells.

Buy 2 cans of sweetened condensed milk - one each in 'caramel' and 'chocolate' flavours.

Put half the chocolate in each shell, then top with half each of the caramel.

You can add cherries, coconut, etc.

This is a great time saver, as previously you had to boil the can of condensed milk for 4 hours (without it boiling dry, exploding, and redecorating the kitchen!) to make the caramel flavour. The chocolate had to be made the hard way by mixing...

Subject: RE: BS: American Pies-Questions & Answers.
From: Sorcha
Date: 26 Nov 07 - 12:32 AM

Grin....I still have a real butcher, and they will save and sell me what ever I want. Grocery store/butcher also owns the packing house. I want lamb kidneys, just ask now and they will save them come spring.

I want brains, they will save them. (No, I don't actually WANT brains) but you get my drift here.

This place processes everything but chickens themselves, and they own associated ranches which also raise it all. Yea, I know I'm lucky. No additives, antibiotics, chances of mad cow disease are VERY slim.

Regarding their chickens, they sell both Tyson and Smart Chicken. Tyson is now advertising 'organic/no additive' chicken....I'm not sure I believe that.

Only problem is, really, that if I want veal or real calf liver I have to promise to buy the entire calf, lamb or whatever. Not truly an insurmountable problem though.

This place also does all the processing for the County Fair 4-H animals that are sold at public auction every August.

Small towns, gotta love 'em.

Subject: RE: BS: American Pies-Questions & Answers.
From: frogprince
Date: 25 Nov 07 - 10:14 PM

My very favoritist pie in the whole world is banana cream. I never turn up my nose at proper apple, blueberry, cherry, strawberry-rhubarb, or 5-fruit pie I discovered a couple of years ago in Canada.
I have countless good memories of pies, and just one not so good. A few years ago, word went out in advance of a company picnic that there would be a relay team pie-eating race; blueberry pie, with each contestant to eat one fourth of a pie, no hands. I tried to go easy on the rest of the picnic food to allow for the pie. So we all lined up, and they started sitting out one half a pie for each person. I got mine down, and our team won, but it was a while befor I wanted blueberry pie again.

Subject: RE: BS: American Pies-Questions & Answers.
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 25 Nov 07 - 08:18 PM

The recent proliferation of fake English pubs across Canada (and some states) has also stopped the appearance of the kidneys in our butcher shops. The pubs have their orders in with the distributors, so they tell me, leaving none for the retail market. In my city, a couple of the pubs have properly prepared steak and kidney pie, but most make a mess of it.
A number of what used to be lower price meats are used in signature dishes in better restaurants. Oxtails, the shanks for Osso bucco, etc. are hard to find and must be ordered well in advance from the butcher.

Subject: RE: BS: American Pies-Questions & Answers.
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 25 Nov 07 - 07:58 PM

I love steak and kidney pie with a passion!

But, more's the pity, it's been several years since I had any. "Why?", I hear someone ask.

It's hard, hard, hard to find lamb kidneys these days. The way meats are distributed--precut at the plant, and sent out to stores where there usually are meat merchandisers or meat-counter help but not real butchers--means that the kidneys are separated from the carcasses rather than sent to the stores. I suspect that the kidneys are diverted to the petfood industry.

My wife has started frequenting farmers markets these days, where it's sometimes possible to find a small, independent, family meat producer supplying and manning a booth, and just sometimes they may have lamb kidneys, but they are often snapped up by the early-morning shoppers at the farmers market.

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: BS: American Pies-Questions & Answers.
From: Sorcha
Date: 25 Nov 07 - 07:00 PM

I suppose I might be able to eat a kiddley pie IF I could get past the smell of kiddleys boiling down.....ugh.

Now, steak and ale pie...bring it ON! Leave out the mushrooms tho.

Subject: RE: BS: American Pies-Questions & Answers.
From: Peace
Date: 25 Nov 07 - 06:54 PM

Steak and Kidley Pie is tops, IMO. The other tops, imo, is Tourtiere. My aunt makes the very best tourtiere in the world. Bar none, no kidding.

Subject: RE: BS: American Pies-Questions & Answers.
From: Jeri
Date: 25 Nov 07 - 06:50 PM

Crisco has no trans fats nor cholesterol. It's got a load of saturated fats though. (I bought some to grease my bird-feeder pole last summer and still have most of it left.)

Subject: RE: BS: American Pies-Questions & Answers.
From: mg
Date: 25 Nov 07 - 06:24 PM

I had that Tourtière once in Maine..delicious.. I was just thinking of poor Envangaline today...if you haven't read the poem since they made you in high school, read it again..it is very sad.

Anyway, read up on the health benefits of lard vs. Crisco. I am not up on Crisco but it at least used to be made of transfats..don't know how it would not be now but maybe they changed it. Anyway, lard would be much much healthier for most people rather than transfats..

Whether it is healthier than not eating lard at all would depend on one's ancestry...many groups co-evolved eating pig fat and I can't imagine how it would hurt them..Polish people, mid-Europeans etc. If it is not in your genetic heritage, then anyone's guess. We did not evolve to eat transfats and they are about the worst things possible for us as they are said to muck up the cell membranes..seriously bad..so go back to lard if that is your preference..otherwise, butter, olive oil, coconut oil (many health benefits and great for baking some things..)...anything but transfats and spread the word however you can...mg

Subject: RE: BS: American Pies-Questions & Answers.
From: Anne Lister
Date: 25 Nov 07 - 06:20 PM

I was a bit surprised to see lemon meringue pies claimed as American ...there's a beautiful old English recipe for them too, as well as "Queen Charlotte's Tart" which uses oranges and lemons for the filling.   I love a good rhubarb pie myself, although I tend to make rhubarb or gooseberry into a crumble instead - and the best ever crumbles are blackberry and apple, in my opinion at least.

Mincemeat was mentioned earlier - back in history they would have included real meat, but today the closest we come to that normally is to put some suet into the mixture of dried fruits and peel (and brandy). Definitely a feature of Christmas food. I make small mince pies and use lemon juice in the pastry.

As to meat pies - oh, the choices we have! Steak and kidney, chicken and ham (or chicken and mushroom, but no one eats mushrooms in this house but me), steak and ale, lamb, veal and ham, raised pork pies ....*drool*

Don't have the lyrics to hand, but there was a great eulogy to American pies in the film "Michael", sung by Andie McDowell.

Anne

Subject: RE: BS: American Pies-Questions & Answers.
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 25 Nov 07 - 06:18 PM

We make chicken pot pie from left-over roast chicken and chopped fresh vegetables.
The deli of the grocery in our neighborhood makes excellent chicken pot pies, with chopped chicken, broccoli, carrots, green beans, etc. We pick up one when we don't want to cook. Their salads are also very good.

The Tourtière reminded me of the French-Canadian Christmas Paté de Noel- layers of turkey, chicken, pork, veal (cut from knuckles), mushrooms, in a savory jelly and enclosed in rich glazed pastry. The pork layer is minced with brandy and broth. It is a major project for the family.
Traditionally served at the first feast of Reveillon, following Midnight Mass on Christmas Eve.

Subject: RE: BS: American Pies-Questions & Answers.
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 25 Nov 07 - 05:50 PM

TOURTIÈRE (Pork Pie)
(French-Canadian classic)

Quebec Tourtière Pastry
4 cups sifted flour
1 tsp salt
1 cup lard
4 tablespoons hard butter
2 eggs, beaten
6 tablespoons cold water
Sift flour and salt into a bowl; cut in lard until mixture resembles fine oatmeal, then cut in hard butter coarsely and stir in eggs and water mixed together. Chill dough for 30 minutes before rolling out.
Makes two 9-inch tourtières.
Note: Rich and flaky. Before baking, place a cupped square of foil on rack below rack holding the pies to catch fat drips.

Filling
1/4 lb salt pork, diced (or streaky bacon)
1 onion, chopped
1/2 clove garlic, crushed (2-3 cloves of
the bland stuff from the grocery)
3 lbs shoulder pork, minced
2 teaspoons salt (old recipe, before diet Nazis)
2 teaspoons chopped celery leaves
2 teaspoons chopped parsley
1/8 teaspoon each, mace and chevril
1/4 teaspoon powdered cloves
Pinch cayenne
1 bay leaf
1 1/2 - 2 cups bouillon or meat stock

Sauté salt pork until crisply browned. Add onion and stir-fry until onion is transparent, then add remaining ingredients. Simmer, stirring occasionally, until thickened, about 35-40 minutes. If you plan to serve the tourtière hot, crumble one or two slices day-old French bread into it to absorb juice and keep the meat from spreading when you cut the pie.
Roll out pastry to line 2 9-inch pie pans. Add the meat mixture. Dampen the rims and roll out the top crusts. Seal the edges and bake at 425 F for 15 minutes. Reduce heat to 350 F and continue baking for about 30 minutes.
Note: Frozen unbaked tourtière turns out crisp and piping hot if baked at 400 F for 25 minutes, then at 350 F for 40 minutes.

There are many variations depending upon the cook. You may choose to leave salt out of the mixture if the bouillon or stock is salty.

A wonderful dish on a cold day. This recipe from the Canadian "The Chatelaine Cookbook," 1965 edition.

The following simplified Quebec Tourtière recipe from Madame Jehane Benoit, "Encyclopedia of Canadian Cuisine," 1963, is for one pie.

1 pound minced pork
1 small onion, chopped
1 clove garlic, minced
1/2 teaspoon salt
1/2 teaspoon savory
1/4 teaspoon celery pepper
1/4 teaspoon ground cloves
1/2 cup water
1/4 to 1/2 cup bread crumbs

Place all ingredients in saucepan except bread crumbs. Bring to a boil and cook 20 minutes, uncovered, over medium heat.
Add a few spoonfuls bread crumbs, let stand 10 minutes. If the fat is sufficiently absorbed by the bread crumbs, do not add more. If not, continue in the same manner.
Cool and pour into pastry-lined pie pan. Cover with pastry. Bake in a 500 F oven until top is well-browned. Serve hot.
Optional
For gravy, heat a can of undiluted cream of mushroom soup (or your own gravy favorite).

Subject: RE: BS: American Pies-Questions & Answers.
From: Sorcha
Date: 25 Nov 07 - 05:19 PM

I used to make a broccoli/beef pie quite often. It was very blah/bland and I never figured out how to fix it up. Might try again one of these days.

Subject: RE: BS: American Pies-Questions & Answers.
From: Azizi
Date: 25 Nov 07 - 03:09 PM

Captain Ginger, the non-fruit or non-vegetable pies I've ever eaten are chicken pies and beef pies {waaay back when I ate beef}. These pies were never home made but were the small pot pies that are sold in the supermarket frozen food sections.

Actually, I {and I bet many other "UnitedStaters"} categorized real pies as dessert only. Store bought chicken pot pies and beef pot pies consist of vegetables, a gravey like sauce, and very little poultry or meat. I never really thought of this quick meal as real pies. Instead, they were "potpies"-the two words running together to refer to something completely different than apple pies, or lemon merangue pies, or other sweet pastry desserts.

However, I suppose with age should come wisdom, or at least knowledge. And I now know that pies don't have to be sweet.

**

This website on the history of pies may be of interest to folks reading this thread: http://www.foodtimeline.org/foodpies.html

In addition to having hyperlinks to entries such as Shepherd's pie,
Shoofly pie, Sweet potato pie, Pot pie; Pumpkin pie; Quiche; Boston cream pie; Cape Breton pork pies; Chess pie; Key lime pie, and more,
this page provides excerpts on the history of pies from a number of scholarly sources.

Here are two examples:

"Patissiere...Prehistoric man made sweet foods based on maple or birch syrup, wild honey, fruits, and seeds. It is thought that the idea of cooking a cereal paste on a stone in the sun to make pancakes began as far back in time as the Neolithic age...In the Middle Ages in France, the work of bakers overlapped with that of the pastrycooks; bakers made gingerbread and meat, cheese, and vegetable pies...However, it was the Crusaders who gave a decisive impetus to patisseries, by discovering sugar cane and puff pastry in the East. This lead to pastrycooks, bakers, and restauranteurs all claiming the same products as their own specialties, and various disputes arose when one trade encroached upon the other...Another order, in 1440, gave the sole rights for meat, fish, and cheese pies to patisseries, this being the first time that the word appeared. Their rights and duties were also defined, and certain rules were established...In the 16th century, patissier products were still quite different from the ones we know today. Choux pastry is said to have been invented in 1540 by Popelini, Catherine de' Medici's chef, but the pastrycook's art only truly began to develop in the 17th century and greatest innovator at the beginning of the 19th century was indubitably [Antonin] Careme...There were about a hundred pastrycooks in Paris at the end of the 18th century. In 1986 the count for the whole of France was over 40,000 baker-pastrycooks and 12,5000 pastrycooks."
---Larousse Gastronomique, Jenifer Harvey Lang, editor [Crown:New York] 1988 (p. 777-8)

"The bakers of France made cakes too until one day in 1440 when a specialist corporation, the corporation of pastrycooks, deprived them of the right to do so. The pastrycooks had begun by making pies--meat pies, fish pies...Romans had known how to make a kind flaky pastry sheet by sheet, like modern filo pastry, but the new method of adding butter, folding and rolling meant that the pastry would rise and form sheets as it did so. Louis XI's favourite marzipan turnovers were made with flaky pastry...From the sixteenth century onwards convents made biscuits and fritters to be sold in the aid of good works...Missionary nuns took their talents as pastrycooks to the French colonies..."
---History of Food, Maguelonne Toussaint-Samat [Barnes & Noble Books:New York] 1992 (p. 242-244) "

Subject: RE: BS: American Pies-Questions & Answers.
From: Sorcha
Date: 25 Nov 07 - 02:57 PM

Oh my no! We also have meat pies, quiche (cheese pie) and other savoury pies. Are aspics in a crust considered pie?

Subject: RE: BS: American Pies-Questions & Answers.
From: Captain Ginger
Date: 25 Nov 07 - 02:41 PM

Are American pies always sweet? For me, on the other side of the Atlantic, the great pies are savoury - steak, kidney and oyster/anchovy; chicken, bacon and mushroom; fish pie - or the great 'coffin pies' with cold-crust pastry, like veal, pork and veal and ham.
Sorry, drooling already!

Subject: RE: BS: American Pies-Questions & Answers.
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 25 Nov 07 - 01:44 PM

Repost appeared in 1733, applied to a second strike by an adversary in fencing ("English Fencing Master).
Any word which can take the meaning of a repeat action when re- is added is 'legal' in English, and need not be regarded as a new word.
"....freely employed in English as a prefix to verbs." (OED)

The pie-in-the face appeared in a 1909 movie, Ben Turpin's "Flip." Fatty Arbuckle and Mabel Normand used the gag in silent films; Mabel Normand is credited with throwing the first pie on-screen in 1913.

Movie- historians, please tell us- what kind of pie?
Buster Keaton perfected the art, using cream pies. See Keaton Pies

Subject: RE: BS: American Pies-Questions & Answers.
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 25 Nov 07 - 01:18 PM

Jeri said:

I think the separation between apple-pie eaters in the US who like cheese and those who don't may be geographic, with the cheddar fans being in the north east, but I don't know.

I'm originally from Minnesota, if that makes any difference.

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: BS: American Pies-Questions & Answers.
From: Azizi
Date: 25 Nov 07 - 01:02 PM

this is a repost. Not a riposte, that's different

Neil D, that was a good one.

"Repost" is a new word. Actually, I'm not sure it's officially recognized as a word, though I know it means posting something again {writing something to a website again}.

Thanks also Neil, for that additional info on "pieing" {which is another new word, or at least is one that expands the original definition of "pies"}.

**


Speaking of which, thanks, Dave for the info you posted about pieing. I'm glad that "most in-the-face pies are nothing but crust (if that) and whipped cream." I mean people are starving over seas {and in the USA too}. So I'd hate to think that real pies were being wasted by being thrown in people's faces.

Subject: RE: BS: American Pies-Questions & Answers.
From: Neil D
Date: 25 Nov 07 - 12:19 PM

The probable originator of pieing as a political act was Aron Kay [4], a Yippie, who pied singer and anti-gay-rights activist Anita Bryant in Des Moines, Iowa, in 1977 (audio footage of the incident is included in the Chumbawamba song Just Desserts, a homage to the concept of pieing).[4] Kay subsequently pied, among many others, William F. Buckley, G. Gordon Liddy, E. Howard Hunt, William Shatner, and Andy Warhol. Kay retired in 1992 after pieing right-wing activist Randall Terry. His exploits live on though. He appears in cartoon form in a 2003 animated music video, "Death penalty for pot" by Benedict Arnold and The Traitors, where he and Dana Beal pie George W. Bush and former U.S. Attorney General John Ashcroft (at 2 minutes and 33 seconds into the video).[5]...

Azizi,
    I thought I posted this from work yesterday but it didn't take so this is a repost. Not a riposte, that's different.
    If memory serves I believe that Aron Kay began his career as a serial pie thrower locally (for me)when he pied the president of Kent State University. It was during the gymnasium controversy in 1977. The university wanted to build a new gym that would partially obscure the site of the events of May 4, 1970. Some people saw this as an attempt to obscure hsitory or even cover up a crime scene since there were still active cases involving the Ohio National Guard and the state government. This sparked a whole series of protests in itself, including a tent city and a brief occupation of the Administration Building. (Two of my friends, students at the time, were recruited as "Official Observers" on the premise that with so many conflicting eye-witness accounts of May 4, 1970, objective observers could somehow keep an accurate accounting in the case of violence happening again in 1977. They even had official jackets with OBSERVER printed on the back.)
    In any case it was during a press conference by President Glenn Olds that he was pied by Aron Kay. There were Yippies I met on Youngstown's North Side at that time who knew Mr. Kay quite well and were utterly geeked when he began to receive national media attention for his pie throwing escapades.

Subject: RE: BS: American Pies-Questions & Answers.
From: Micca
Date: 25 Nov 07 - 07:54 AM

Speaking of American pie, you would have to pull a masterful stroke indeed to surpass or even equal the pie Maeve produced for the party at Sinsulls while I was visiting, I understand it was made from apples grown in Marys garden but it had everything I like in apple pie. It had a delightful pastry top the fruit was firm,not soggy, and tart, not too sweet with a wonderful subtle flaour of an apple variety I didnt recognise all in all a Masterpiece, for which I thank her.

Subject: RE: BS: American Pies-Questions & Answers.
From: Azizi
Date: 25 Nov 07 - 02:17 AM

Here's another children's rhyme that includes mention of various types of pies:

blueberry raspberry huckelberry pie who will be your lucy guy is it a b c d e f g h ect..(when they get to z start over and when they stop whatever letter they stop on you name a guy)
-Shayla;May 14, 2005 http://blog.oftheoctopuses.com/000518.php

Subject: RE: BS: American Pies-Questions & Answers.
From: wysiwyg
Date: 24 Nov 07 - 08:34 PM

Bill, isn't that sposed to be HORSE-apple pies?

Hardi's fave is persimmon pudding which is sort of a cake, sort of a pie.

~S~

Subject: RE: BS: American Pies-Questions & Answers.
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 24 Nov 07 - 08:26 PM

ñame- yam. Should have posted the old Spanish word earlier.

When we find a good plump yam, we microwave the greased tuber on high for about 5 minutes per pound, stopping to turn it over at the halfway point. If not cooked enough, add a couple of minutes more time. It is much better to add time incrementally rather than ruining it by cooking too long.
Remove the skin and mix in butter. Yum!
It seems a sacrilege to make pie with good yams when butter is sufficient for a princely dish. Serve with a slice of smoke-cured ham and biscuits or corn bread- hard to beat!

Subject: RE: BS: American Pies-Questions & Answers.
From: Bill D
Date: 24 Nov 07 - 06:51 PM

a pie poem...attributed to various, including Ben Franklin, but more likely anon.


I LOATHE, abhor, detest, despise,
Abominate dried-apple pies.
I like good bread, I like good meat,
Or anything that's fit to eat;
But of all poor grub beneath the skies,
The poorest is dried apple pies.
Give me the toothache, or sore eyes,
But don't give me dried apple pies.
The farmer takes his gnarliest fruit,
'Tis wormy, bitter, and hard, to boot;
He leaves the hulls to make us cough,
And don't take half the peeling off.
Then on a dirty cord 'tis strung
And in a garret window hung,
And there it serves as roost for flies,
Until it's made up into pies.
Tread on my corns, or tell me lies,
But don't pass me dried-apple pies.

Subject: RE: BS: American Pies-Questions & Answers.
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 24 Nov 07 - 06:24 PM

Yam (Dioscorea; species sativa or 'cultivated yam' from the Philippines, D. batatas or 'Chinese yam'). The word probably is not African; it originated with the Spanish igname or Portuguese inname, applied to the tuber found by them in the East Indies. The name is probably Asian in origin, but ultimate origin unknown. In print in 1557, and into English in 1588, in Hickok, in "Frederick's Voyage to the East Indies." "...like our turnops but sweete and very good to eate." Hakluyt (1588) in his Voyage, spoke of bread made with it and preferred it to the bread they had; called inany, Italian ignamy. In 1598 they were mentioned from Guinea by Parker, "as big as a man's leg." In 1600, Pory also mentioned them from Africa, and said in the West Indies they were called batate (potato). White and purple types were being discussed by 1699. (Yams and sweet potatoes aleady being confused??)
In 1657, they were being planted in Barbados, Ligon spelt it "yeams." The type cultivated in the West Indies was originally from the East Indies, but the American type called 'Louisiana' and most common probably is a selection from west Africa.
There seems to be room for argument on some of the history of the tuber.
Some authors argue for African origin of the word; I won't swear by either theory, but lean towards the Asian origin, since early usage (OED) leans that way. Webster's mentions the Fulani word, nyami, to eat.
The tubers are found from Australia through the southern Asian region to Africa. Small American members of the genus were used in medicines.

The sweet potato is unrelated to the yam, Ipomoea batatas, a tropical vinelike plant, same family as the morning glory. Rather widespread.

Subject: RE: BS: American Pies-Questions & Answers.
From: gnu
Date: 24 Nov 07 - 05:49 PM

Rhubarb-Strawberry. And a pot of strong tea.

Subject: RE: BS: American Pies-Questions & Answers.
From: Jeri
Date: 24 Nov 07 - 05:40 PM

My mom made the crust with just a couple teaspoons of vinegar, which you couldn't taste at all after baking. I think maybe it was to reduce the glutenization. One big factor in making good crust is to not mix it too much. She used a fork.

I've got her recipe for the crust, but not the apple pie. If I could ask her what was different, she'd say, "You just make an apple pie and add a lot more cinnamon that what the recipe calls for." We also had a big hunk of cheese with apple pie - cheddar cheese, the stinkier the better. My parents referred to the appropriately aged cheese as 'rat trap' cheese. I loved cheese and I loved my mom's apple pie, but I remember thinking that the combination was something truly bizarre that adults did. I learned to love it though.

I think the separation between apple-pie eaters in the US who like cheese and those who don't may be geographic, with the cheddar fans being in the north east, but I don't know.

Subject: RE: BS: American Pies-Questions & Answers.
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 24 Nov 07 - 04:01 PM

Azizi, it's my understanding that most in-the-face pies are nothing but crust (if that) and whipped cream. The point is all display, of course, and that's quick, easy, and CHEAP.

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: BS: American Pies-Questions & Answers.
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 24 Nov 07 - 03:58 PM

My favorite dessert pie is apple pie (preferably with Granny Smith apples), and with a big slice of SHARP cheddar cheese served with it.

Second favorite, banana cream pie. BUT, none of this instant pudding stuff, and not topped with whipped cream. It's got to be the real cooked sauce, and a meringue topping, about 1-1/2 inches thick. More's the pity, my Beautiful Wife doesn't have the knack for doing a real stand-up meringue, and it ends up thin to begin with and collapses from there.

We have a running joke in our family: When there's a difference of factual understanding or memory, I'll challenge her: "I'll bet you a chocolate souffle against a banana cream pie!" Over the years, she owes me a large number of banana cream pies, because she really drags her feet on making one (because of the unfortunate circumstance cited in the previous paragraph.) I've had to deliver twice, I think, on a chocolate souffle bet.

As to pumpkin pie, I loathe the frothy stuff they make with beaten gelatin. Heresy!

An unusual pie, which I've had only twice in my life, I think, is green-tomato pie. You make it just about like a green-apple pie, with nutmeg and cinnamon in it. It's really good.

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: BS: American Pies-Questions & Answers.
From: Azizi
Date: 24 Nov 07 - 03:49 PM

Thanks, Dave.

I admit to being uncertain about how to spell the plural of "potato" and it's all because of Dan Quale. :o}

For those who don't know what I mean,check out this Wikipedia entry:

"The singular spelling variants potato vs. potatoe co-existed into the 19th century. Potatoe in the 20th century came to be considered a misspelling, while the plural remains potatoes.

Vice President of the United States Dan Quayle became notoriously associated with this misspelling in a June 15, 1992 incident. Quayle went to a photo op at Munoz Rivera School in Trenton, New Jersey, where he was to officiate a spelling bee by drawing flash cards and asking students to write the words on the blackboard. Twelve-year-old William Figueroa wrote potato, but Quayle prompted him to append an "e" which, according to Quayle's 1995 Autobiography "Standing Firm", was the spelling on the flash card.[1] The incident briefly made national news in the United States and became a source of entertainment for the tabloid newspapers in the United Kingdom. For the June 25, 1992 rerun of The Simpsons episode "Two Cars in Every Garage and Three Eyes on Every Fish", Bart Simpson's opening chalkboard gag was hastily changed to read, "It's potato, not potatoe". This was also the cause of a Saturday Night Live episode "Mr. Casual Sex", in which Rob Schneider launches into a tirade against Quayle by saying that he is not qualified to discuss family values as he cannot properly spell potato."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Potatoe#Spelling

Subject: RE: BS: American Pies-Questions & Answers.
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 24 Nov 07 - 03:40 PM

Azizi said:

but maybe it's the flavoring and not the vegetable-or are pumpkin/sweetpotatos fruit?

Sweet potatoes (note "e") are a vegetable. Or I suppose you could make the distinction and say it's a tuber.

Pumpkin is fruit.

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: BS: American Pies-Questions & Answers.
From: wysiwyg
Date: 24 Nov 07 - 01:14 PM

Spaw, we did Sweeney in high school way back when. I enjoyed being stage manager, because I got to be sure the chair-flip was in working order every day. :~)

~Susan

Subject: RE: BS: American Pies-Questions & Answers.
From: jeffp
Date: 24 Nov 07 - 12:50 PM

Here's my recipe for Key Lime Pie.

Graham Cracker Crust:
1 paper-wrapped package graham crackers (1/3 of a 1 pound box) or 1 cup plus 2 1/2 tablespoons graham cracker crumbs
5 tablespoons melted unsalted butter
1/3 cup sugar
Filling:
3 egg yolks
2 limes, zest grated (about 1 1/2 teaspoons)
1 (14-ounce) can sweetened condensed milk
2/3 cup freshly squeezed lime juice (if you get Key limes, use them: otherwise use regular limes)

Topping:
1 cup heavy or whipping cream, chilled
3 tablespoons of confectioners' sugar

For the graham cracker crust: Preheat the oven to 350 degrees F. Butter a 9-inch pie pan. Break up the graham crackers: place in a food processor and process to crumbs. (If you dont have a food processor, place the crackers in a large plastic bag: seal and then crush the crackers with a rolling pin.) Add the melted butter and sugar and pulse or stir until combined. Press the mixture into the bottom and sides of the pan, forming a neat border around the edge. Bake the crust until set and golden, 8 minutes. Set aside on a wire rack. Leave the oven on.
For the filling: Meanwhile, in a electric mixer with the wire whisk attachment, beat the egg yolks and lime zest at a high speed until very fluffy, abut 5 minutes. Gradually add the condensed milk and continue to beat until thick, 3 or 4 minutes longer. Lower the mixer speed and slowly add the lime juice, mixing just until combined, no longer. Pour mixture into the pie crust. Bake for 10 minutes, or until the filling has set. Cool on a wire rack, then refrigerate. Freeze for 15 to 20 minutes before serving.

For the topping: Whip the cream and the confectioners' sugar until nearly stiff. Cut the pie in wedges and serve very cold, topping each wedge with a large dollop of whipped cream.


During the late summer into the fall I can get key limes at a local grocery store (Bill, it's the Weis Market on Rte. 1 in Savage). They're much, much better. A bag makes enough juice for the pie, with a couple left over to slice thinly for garnish. It's quite tart, but the whipped cream balances it out nicely. You can substitute bottled lime juice, but it's nowhere near as good.

Subject: RE: BS: American Pies-Questions & Answers.
From: Azizi
Date: 24 Nov 07 - 08:51 AM

Here's some more music trivia about the song "Apples Peaches Pumpkin Pie" which was written by Jerry Ross,Kenny Gamble, and Leon Huff.

"AW: Don't I hear Ashford & Simpson singing background?

JR: Funny you should ask. Nick Ashford, Valerie Simpson and Melba Moore sang background on "Sunny", "Mr. Dream Merchant", with Jerry Butler, "Apples, Peaches" and all my Dee Dee Warwick productions. They were always my "go to" backgrounds.

AW: "I'm Gonna Make You Love Me" (Ross/Gamble/Huff) is one of my favourite songs of all time! How did that come about?

JR: When I went to New York to A&R at Mercury, I'd always have Kenny Gamble and Leon Huff come up from Philly and write with me - I gladly opened many doors for them - whenever I had an album to do for Bobby Hebb or Jerry Butler or Jay & the Techniques. "Apples, Peaches, Pumpkin Pie" had just gone Top 10. I always kept an open door for new writers, especially for Kenny and Leon. I loved them and I loved their creativity. They had not started to produce their own records yet. By the way, Tommy Bell was often my keyboard guy.

AW: You guys turned out some incredible stuff!..."

http://www.spectropop.com/JerryRoss/index.htm

Subject: RE: BS: American Pies-Questions & Answers.
From: Azizi
Date: 24 Nov 07 - 08:40 AM

When I listed those things I like to do, I forgot to mention the collecting, reading, listening to, and watching children perform children's rhymes.

I suppose that there are a number of children's rhymes that mention pies. But the one that immediately comes to my mind is a hide & go seek rhyme that the person who is "It" chants while other children scatter and hide:

Apple, peaches, pumpkin pie
whose not ready
Holler I

-snip-

This children's hide & seek rhyme was cleverly used as the theme of this 1967 R&B song:

APPLES, PEACHES, PUMPKIN PIE
{Jay & The Techniques}

Ready or not here I come
Gee that used to be such fun

Apples peaches pumpkin pie
Who's afraid to holler I?
That's a game we used to play.
Hide and seek was its name.
Oh ready or not, hear I come,
Gee that used to be such fun.
I always used to find a hiding place,
Times have changed.
Well I'm one step behind you, but still I can't find you
Apple peaches pumpkin pie,
You were young and so was I.
Now that we've grown up it seems
You just keep ignoring me.
I'll find you anywhere you go,
I'll follow you high and low.
You can't escape this love of mine anytime.
Well, I'll sneak up behind you,
Be careful where I find you.
Apple peaches pumpkin pie,
Soon your love will be all mine.
Then I'm gonna take you home,
Marry you so you won't roam.(2x)
Right now I'll find you anywhere you go,
I'm gonna look high and low.
You can't escape this love of mine anytime.
Well, I'll sneak up behind you,
Be careful where I find you.
Ready or not here I come,
Gee that used to be such fun

http://lyricsplayground.com/alpha/songs/a/applespeachespumpkinpie.shtml

****

Here's a YouTube audio clip of this song witha photo collage:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EwzYtiDcGkE

Btw, the viewers' comments often make interesting reading. For instance, here's one comment:

"One of my all time favorite records. There seems to be 2 different versions around.This I believe is the original 45 version, its quicker and faster. And there is a slower version with more bass and more laid back . The slower version is the better record. I still love both versions. To me him and his girl use to play hide and seek when they were kids now they're grown up and he still wants her.Very romantic."
-jameycruz

Subject: RE: BS: American Pies-Questions & Answers.
From: Azizi
Date: 24 Nov 07 - 08:22 AM

Besides eating, and starting lots of category threads on Mudcat such as thread.cfm?threadid=105855 "Religious Songs That Speak To You", I like learning about the origins & meanings of words.

So what's the difference between a yam and a sweet potato? I thought that "yam" was just another name for "sweet potato", but I was wrong.

Here's an excerpt from About.com: Home Cooking

"Yam or sweet potato, what in the world is it? Many people use these terms interchangeably both in conversation and in cooking, but they are really two different vegetables...

Sweet Potatoes
Popular in the American South, these yellow or orange tubers are elongated with ends that taper to a point and are of two dominant types. The paler-skinned sweet potato has a thin, light yellow skin with pale yellow flesh which is not sweet and has a dry, crumbly texture similar to a white baking potato. The darker-skinned variety (which is most often called "yam" in error) has a thicker, dark orange to reddish skin with a vivid orange, sweet flesh and a moist texture...

Yams
The yam tuber has a brown or black skin which resembles the bark of a tree and off-white, purple or red flesh, depending on the variety. They are at home growing in tropical climates, primarily in South America, Africa, and the Caribbean...

The word yam comes from African words njam, nyami, or djambi, meaning "to eat," and was first recorded in America in 1676...

Yams contain more natural sugar than sweet potatoes and have a higher moisture content. They are also marketed by their Spanish names, boniato and ñame..."

-snip-

What?! Sweet potatos aren't yams?! Well, I guess they're the closest thing to yams that we had in the USA-that is, until imported vegetables became available for purchase at our nearest super markets. But don't get me started on the subject of imported foods.

That's a whole 'nuther subject.

Subject: RE: BS: American Pies-Questions & Answers.
From: Azizi
Date: 24 Nov 07 - 07:46 AM

Up thread, when I mentioned the reasons why I started this discussion, I wrote "As for me and this thread, I just felt like being light hearted, and sharing information at the same time".

Those reasons are incomplete as I omitted that I also started this thread to learn from other folks who I hoped would post to it.

Thanks again for your posts!

Subject: RE: BS: American Pies-Questions & Answers.
From: Janie
Date: 24 Nov 07 - 01:46 AM

In the years since moving to North Carolina, I notice that Sweet Potato pies seem to be favored over pumpkin. It may be a southern preference that African-Americans have carried with them. Or, it could be that African-American slave cooks made it popular in the South. Since both pumpkins and sweet potatoes grow well here, but sweet potatoes will store in root cellars through the winter, it makes sense that they would have become the more used and preferred.

I prefer pumpkin to sweet potato, probably because I was raised on it, but I also prefer the texture of the pumpkin custard to a sweet potato custard.

Pumpkin pie made from scratch with fresh pie pumpkins and honey instead of sugar is my is my favorite pie. After that, it is a close toss-up between cherry and apple.

I like the simplicity of making an apple pie. I don't have a recipe, but people generally seem to like my apple pies. I have a lovely old-fashioned gizmo that cores, peels and slices the apples with the turn of a crank. I keep cranking and dumping the result into a pie shell until the pan is heaped with apples. Then I sprinkle the apples with cinnamon, nutmeg and cornstarch, (kept in a cheese shaker)toss them in the shell, drizzle with lemon juice and a little honey, cover with the top crust, and bake.

I'm with 'Spaw and Sorcha. Forget healthy if you want a really nice pie crust. It is the crust that will ultimately distinguish between a good pie and a great pie. Lard really does make the best crust, but it is SO bad for you, that I stick with Crisco. Butter, or coconut based shortenings may work for a for a tart shell, where some texture has to be sacrificed for a crust sturdy enough to be a stand alone container for the filling, but can not deliver the proper texture for a pie crust. I've played around with a lot of pastry recipes, and finally decided that the recipe on the Crisco label is my favorite for most pies.

I swear by the use of a pastry cloth and rolling pin cover for any pastry or biscuit dough. I store them in a baggie in the freezer.

Janie

Subject: RE: BS: American Pies-Questions & Answers.
From: katlaughing
Date: 24 Nov 07 - 12:43 AM

If you want what they call "pie cherries" here, which are sour (to my taste), let me know. We have them all over the valley and some places freeze them so one can buy them over the winter, even.

My cousin whose mother was an excellent baker, said I made the best pies, esp. my crust. I got it out of a Better Homes and Garden cookbook and it was made with oil. Here's the old recipe. I use olive oil:

Oil Pastry 2 cups flour 1 1/2 t. salt 1/2 cup salad oil (canola oil) 5 T. cold water or milk Mix flour and salt,pour oil and water into measuring cup but do not stir. Add all at once to flour. Stir lightly with a fork. Form into two balls; slightly flatten. Roll between two 12 in squares of waxed paper. (dampen table slightly) Roll dough to edges of paper,this will be the right thickness.Peel off top sheet of the paper and fit dough,paper side up,into pie plate. Remove the paper. Put in filling and roll out top crust. Makes 8" or 9" pie: double crust. From the Better Homes and Garden Cookbook

Dampening the surface before you put the waxed paper down will keep it from sliding around.

Subject: RE: BS: American Pies-Questions & Answers.
From: Bee
Date: 24 Nov 07 - 12:14 AM

The closest I come to baking pie is not pie at all, but little shortbread lemon tarts. I think my mother may have invented them about forty years ago. You make mini tartshells (in those tiny muffin tins) of a simple shortbread: "one half of brown sugar to one of butter to two of flour", bake them briefly at 350F. Let cool, and fill with: one can sweetened condensed milk with one half cup fresh lemon juice and dash of salt stirred until milk thickens - about three minutes. Keep the filling refrigerated and fill tarts as required, which in my house is 'as long as its there I'm going to eat one... or two... or three...'

Subject: RE: BS: American Pies-Questions & Answers.
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 23 Nov 07 - 11:27 PM

My wife does a great Key Lime pie, but it is beyond my skills (or lack thereof).
Also like lemon meringue (ditto).

Subject: RE: BS: American Pies-Questions & Answers.
From: mg
Date: 23 Nov 07 - 11:16 PM

I'm generally not a pie eater as I don't like gooey things, but a good chocolate pie is great..or key lime...

And I don't see any relation at all to this quite sensible thread and the cutsie ones that I avoid. No reason at all not to ask people for pie recipes that I can see...not that I have any...mg

Subject: RE: BS: American Pies-Questions & Answers.
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 23 Nov 07 - 10:27 PM

Sour cherries are available canned in stores here (western Canada), from Roumania! Fresh are unobtainable here, and the tiny Nanking (good for jelly) is the only cherry that grows here on the prairies.

A good apple pie, served almost hot, with a generous slab of Stilton cheese on top, is great. Samuel Johnson, the 18th c. lexicographer, regarded England outside of London as uncouth and uncivilized, but somewhere in northern England while touring, he found an inn which served apple pie with Stilton, and said it was the only worthwhile thing he found on his trip.

Subject: RE: BS: American Pies-Questions & Answers.
From: Bee
Date: 23 Nov 07 - 10:13 PM

I'm an eater not a baker... but sour cherry pies are my favourite - hard to get sour cherries anymore, just those big sweet ones. And of course, cold tart apple pie, leave the cinnamon out of 'er! Strawberry rhubarb, yessir. And one I've come to love, cranberry apple pie!

My one grandmother used lard, not much sugar, and baked her pies four at a go, eight pies at once, in the coal stove oven. Her pastry was not flaky at all, but thin and soft, and her pies were mostly eaten at breakfast.

My other grandmother made delicate flaky pastry, and made the best mincemeat (venison and beef together, usually) on the Island, kept it in 'stone' jars in the cold cellar.

Subject: RE: BS: American Pies-Questions & Answers.
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 23 Nov 07 - 10:13 PM

PUMPKIN PIE

Pastry according to Sorcha's recipe
Filling-

pure pumpkin* 28 oz. tin
1 cup brown Demerara sugar
1 cup white sugar
2 tablespoons molasses
1 1/2 teaspoons powdered ginger
1/4 teaspoon powdered cloves
3 teaspoons cinammon
1 teaspoon pure vanilla extract
1 short teaspoon salt
1/4 teaspoon allspice
4 large eggs, slightly beaten
2 cups scalded milk (or part cream)
Mix ingredients in order given. Pour into two 9-inch partly baked pie shells (see PECAN PIE I, above).
Bake 15 minutes at 425 F in preheated oven. Reduce heat to 325 F and bake one hour.
*We use pure canned pumpkin, E. D. Smith, 28 oz tin (796ml). Good fresh pumpkin of the proper variety is not found in our stores.

When serving, top with bourbon-or brandy-laced cream. Recipe given with SWEET POTATO pie, above.

I gave this recipe in another thread a while back.

Subject: RE: BS: American Pies-Questions & Answers.
From: Sorcha
Date: 23 Nov 07 - 10:10 PM

Additives for Pie! (Come back, bring PIE!)
Peach--a dash of grated nutmeg
Cherry--drop or two (not much!) Almond extract (Amaretto works too!)
Coconut--toast the coconut lightly before adding to the custard
Lemon or lime--a teaspoon or so of finely grated peel (aka zest)
Chocolate custard--dash of cinnamon
Pecan--drop or two of Mapeline
Apple--I always use brown sugar instead of white
Pumpkin--I always double the cinnamon called for, and increase the ginger,nutmeg and clove. Be careful with the last 2 or it will be bitter and nasty. Look, I think pumpkin should be spicy not blah.

Subject: RE: BS: American Pies-Questions & Answers.
From: Azizi
Date: 23 Nov 07 - 09:46 PM

LOL! Spaw. I see I have been culturally deprived. I'll have to check out Sweeney Todd.

**

Thanks to all who have posted material to this thread!

Keep it comin if you have a mind to and the stomach for it.

LOL!