BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Riginslinger
Date: 21 Dec 07 - 09:59 AM

"Again - who cares what they think if they are taking the right actions?"


                They aren't, of course, taking the right actions. They are taking all of the wrong actions; they just don't know it. They can say they are taking the right actions, and that makes them feel good, and that's all that matters.

                In the end, they are doing great damage to the greater society.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Peace
Date: 21 Dec 07 - 10:03 AM

Well, I think for the second time I will wish my friends here a Merry/Happy Christmas--or Christmas season as you prefer.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Amos
Date: 21 Dec 07 - 11:12 AM

And a jolly Winterval to all.

Ya know, I don't think there is any question that the Universe is a very very very large and wondrous place, relative to which human interactions are quite small in scale, and perhaps insignificant. But of course, they are not insignificant to me! And I really think it is quite amazing to see this uppity little bipedal species of ours raise up and start measuring and adjudicating the comings and goings of the galaxies and star-clusters, and peering into the black holes of far-off universes. It is presumptuous, full of hubris; but it is also high-spirited, bold, adventurous and fun. In spite of all its strange flaws and mental corkscrews, the spirit of humanity, in my opinion, is a wonder to behold in play.

So you will occasionally hear me say something like "God bless" or "Thank God", in a very heartfelt way, despite my rejection of traditional theistic structures, because one thing I know for sure is it is a very big universe. And I wish it to be kind to all my fellow hoomings. But the spirit of Mankind is all the godhead I need, thanks.

A

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Peace
Date: 21 Dec 07 - 11:15 AM

Amen to that, brother.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: gnu
Date: 21 Dec 07 - 11:16 AM

Merry HOHO to you too, Peace. A... god bless eh.

700+ posts. Jeepers Creepers!

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Peace
Date: 21 Dec 07 - 11:42 AM

Great you're back, Gnu. Hope you are feeling gooood.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Peace
Date: 21 Dec 07 - 12:00 PM

From what I have read on this thread, you could replace the term 'organized religion' with 'political party' and not have to change much else. (BTW, I know Will Roger's quote.)

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Peace
Date: 21 Dec 07 - 12:01 PM

My last post here:





















BEWARE OF STUPID PEOPLE IN GROUPS

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: wysiwyg
Date: 21 Dec 07 - 01:36 PM

From what I have read on this thread, you could replace the term 'organized religion' with 'political party' and not have to change much else.

What a coinkydink. I came to post this--

A terribly earnest and thoroughly-scripted [insert product of your stereotype of an enemy] young salesperson just stopped by our front door, to take more of our time than we cared to give, "bearing gifts."

The distinction is, is the person (A) following a script to (B) sell something, or (A) having an honest, interpersonal conversation (B) they and I have agreed to have?

Of course we told her politely that we were not interested, and closed the door. We did not try to convert her away from her program, for the sake of "her potential," because SHE IS AN ADULT doing her own thing.

(Didn't we fight in the 60's for the right to do our own thing???)

I am not looking to reprogram her, and I am not looking to get re-programmed. By her-- or by a well-meaning Mudcatter who cares about my "potential."

Don't we all like to think we have that in common?

Today (I know you're dying to know), it was Kirby vacuum cleaners. Tomorrow it will be Ron Paul campaigners. Next week, Mormons. Alla da samesame. Now, if Mrrzy comes, I would hope it will be for MUSIC.

~Susan

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Peace
Date: 21 Dec 07 - 02:28 PM

Susan, I hope your Christmas is wonderful. IMO, you're on the side of the angels. Keep up the good work.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 21 Dec 07 - 03:35 PM

Echo that Bruce. You aint so bad yourself mate!
Have a great Christmas all....Best wishes, Mike.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Peace
Date: 21 Dec 07 - 03:40 PM

Mike, I can't tell you how many times those e-mails you send now and then have brightened my day. Thank you so very much. Back atcha. Take care.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: M.Ted
Date: 21 Dec 07 - 05:32 PM

"And I do not give up hope of having control"--and if that happens Mrzzy, God help us all.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Riginslinger
Date: 21 Dec 07 - 06:33 PM

"...and if that happens Mrzzy, God help us all..."


                     And since we all know there are no goDs, that's no help at all.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 21 Dec 07 - 07:14 PM

Not all of us riginslinger. There are many of us who believe in one God and some who believe in many Gods.......you can believe in none if you wish...that's your choice but please don't tar us all with the same brush as yourself.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Stringsinger
Date: 21 Dec 07 - 07:28 PM

Hi Susan,

Thank you for the interesting post.

I think there is a problem with throwing the baby out with the proverbial bathwater.
I agree totally wiith building alliances rather than operating on adversity.

I think the best protest or agitation comes from a deep sense of commitment and an avoidance of emnity and anger. I think that this is within the province of those who are believers or non-believers of any religious faith.

It will take a community of people with good will to respond to the injustice that we now face in a sociopathic political administration.

I take your point about healing and fixing the broken parts of a system. My view is that
the system that works for the benefit of society can include many parts, those who believe in a faith and those who do not. I think that it is necessary to understand all parts of any system that affects how society works. I think that inclusion as best as it can be acheived
is an ethical and noble goal if there is honest agreement in those working together.

I have respect for many people who are religious. I see many sincere folks as seeking
truths for their lives and I think this is a constructive pursuit. Secularism is another one of those labels that fail to define everyone who applies it to themselves. What is really scary to me is a closed mind and an unwillingness to investigate that which is sometimes uncomfortable to talk about. Here, the labels of secularist or relgionist become masks for
dealing with the real issues. One main issue for me is to explore how can a society exist without using the option of war and emnity as problem solvers.

Some see religion as creating a polarization and accuse others who don't believe as contributing to it. I think this comes down to the individual. There are polarizing
people who derive something from this behavior whether religious or not.

So people have to find their own way toward the goal of creating a free and peaceful society. I agree that we all have a lot to learn.

I thank you for your honest and thoughtful responses, and when it comes to education,
values, wanting the best that we can have for society, and seeing a mission to help people discover the joy of music, I know we are on the same page.

As we discuss these issues of religion I see an opening that augurs a change that is
beneficial for everyone. It doesn't have to be a line-in-the-sand discussion but can
be a vehicle for intelligent exchange of ideas.

I admire that you wanted to explore other avenues of your life which required courage.

I think you articulated your position well.

Frank

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: wysiwyg
Date: 22 Dec 07 - 10:21 AM

Frank, I must be "channeling" you now, because you just wrote pretty much what I would write back to you-- all the ideas, and most of the words. I would add, personally, that I think you and I did something good here, in the exchanges we have had. I don;t care too much whether it benefits Mudcat-- not an expectation-- but I am very much aware how it is already benfiting my relationships, ideas, and action outside of this community of people.

BTW our music circle is on hiatus these days-- long story-- but we still incorporate what we can into our Saturday Night Service activities. In June I will lead a Spirituals teaching workshop for some pretty staid Episcopalians (many of whom will be church musicians). I plan to turn them loose on dot-free singing and textual improvisation. :~)

A place you might want to look for models of peaceful change is here: www.rc.org (Not "the" RC Church), in their materials and theory around eliminating racism which extend into eliminating all "isms."

Happy Holidays, and WELL MET,

~Susan

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Amos
Date: 22 Dec 07 - 01:46 PM

While I completely support fixing the broken parts of social networks, I do feel it important to add that one of the elements that can be very toxic to any network of beings is false data, and another is arbitrary weighting of importance. The problem with many proselytizing groups (of any stamp whatsoever) is that they often seek to inject data into a calculation about life and survival and such that is false or wholly arbitrary relative to that problem and its solutions. Or, they interject assertions of importance that are all topsy turvy -- just listen to the reactionaries expound on "illegal immigration" for an example of distorted importances.

It can drive a feller barmy, it can. ;>)


A

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Riginslinger
Date: 22 Dec 07 - 10:37 PM

..."just listen to the reactionaries expound on "illegal immigration" for an example of distorted importances..."


                   But who are the reationaries, the National Allience, the Nation of Aztlan, or both?

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: M.Ted
Date: 23 Dec 07 - 12:59 AM

I think Amos was pretty clearly critical of both ends of the spectrum, Riginslinger--but you have put forward an entertaining parallel--those two groups sound a lot a like(both are NAs)-maybe there is some sort of "ClipArt" for hate literature--cut and paste your favorite enemy;-)

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Amos
Date: 23 Dec 07 - 01:39 AM

In my book, reactionaries are those whose thoughts are push-button in nature, not analytical, and concomitantly also tend to be driven by fear and hate rather than cheerful tolerance of one's fellow humans in principle.


A

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Doug Chadwick
Date: 23 Dec 07 - 05:46 AM

There are many of us who believe in one God and some who believe in many Gods.......

The difference between an atheist and you is only a matter of degree. As a believer in one God, you disbelieve in many. The atheist just disbelieves in one more God than you.

DC

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: john f weldon
Date: 23 Dec 07 - 01:12 PM

D. Dennett notes a couple of articles by modern theologians. One who believes in an anthropomorphic god considers those who believe in a less personal version to be "no different from Atheists." And, needless to say, vice versa. Everyone's an Atheist to someone!

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Stringsinger
Date: 23 Dec 07 - 01:38 PM

Right, John, and that's the trouble with labels.

Frank

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Amos
Date: 23 Dec 07 - 01:41 PM

The failure to differentiate between things that are actually different is the sure keynote of insanity.


A

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Stringsinger
Date: 23 Dec 07 - 01:43 PM

Susan,

I'll check into the site you recommended.

I think any dialogue and idea sharing is beneficial in today's heated atmosphere of
either polarity or of indifference is always useful no matter what forum.

I hope you can get your musical circle up and running again soon.

I maintain (this may be another thread) that the next Folk Music Revival will
take place in the living room rather than the concert stage or recordings.
When enough people begin to own the music, then an audience is built.

Frank

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: M.Ted
Date: 23 Dec 07 - 01:58 PM

Everybody believes in something, even, and often especially, atheists.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: john f weldon
Date: 23 Dec 07 - 02:07 PM

Not me. I don't have beliefs, at least not in the absolute sense. I assign probabilities, although some are quite high. But nothing reaches 100%. Not mind. Not matter. Not the universe, or my perception of the universe. Not my own existence. Zilch.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: john f weldon
Date: 23 Dec 07 - 02:17 PM

On a slightly different note, let me mention Mel Gibson, in an interview opined that his wife, and Anglican, was headed for hell. A while ago, on tv, I saw a Christian Evangelist opine that Roman Catholics were also heading downstairs.   Maybe they're both right, and we're all heading for hell!

Give new meaning to the old song, "We Shall All be Re-United!"

See ya!

A Nice Song on the Subject

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: 282RA
Date: 23 Dec 07 - 02:26 PM

>>If I were to walk on your pool and be visible to many people at once it would also mean it would be My second coming (you can read about it in the Gospels).<<

I have, Jesus, and the problem with your second coming as it is written in the NT is that you claim it will happen in the lifetimes of those who stood there listening to you speak. "Many of you standing here will not taste death before the son of man come again" or some such thing. Am I quoting you correctly, Jesus? So it either already happened or you were wrong.

That's the thing people who believe the gospels as history NEVER seem to want to talk about. You, sir, predicted the last days would come before your listeners passed and it did not happen. And you, sir, have never felt pressured enough to clarify what you had said or was quoted as saying. But you must have said it because you were clearly preaching the Last Days. You were wrong. That places the entire belief system of Christianity in jeopardy. It raises the uncomfortable options that you were either deluded or lying. The whole Christian scheme of salvation is instantly erased either way.

See, Jesus, Christians present us with an impossible personage when describing you. You were human but you were god too. But, no, human and god can't coexist so you must have been god. But can god suffer and die? Don't be ridiculous. So you were human so that you would suffer as a human because if you were god, it would only be for show because you can't suffer or die. So, you were actually human up to the moment of your death and then you became god and didn't really die.

No wait, you suffered and died as a human being so that the sacrifice was genuine as a show of how much you loved us and then you went to hell and actually paid for those sins for three days. You apparently paid for our sins to Satan. And then you became god. But then your godlike nature had to already be in you somehow from birth. So you were born god's literal son on earth but you were god, the man shape was just a shell. It was like a balloon blown up by your godliness and mimicking and gesturing and talking as you direct it to.

And you had to shit at times, Jesus, if you were human. So did you shit or not? Some say you did. Other say you did not. Indeed some say you had no internal organs at all and your eating and drinking was just an appearance.

Now, Jesus, I think it's high time you cleared that up for us. People have been dying for centuries over this amazingly childish crap. Enough is enough. I mean, if you're flesh and blood, then you can be forgiven for being wrong about the second coming. You're only human, right? But then that means you have no divine nature and so are kind of just talking out your ass--ERG! Just a few words of clarification here, please. I mean, Jesus Christ, have some decency!

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: wysiwyg
Date: 23 Dec 07 - 02:27 PM

I've always enjoyed one litany sometimes used in our church where everyone present prays for everyone else in spiritual error. I am sure that each person is thinking of someone ELSE who is in error when they pray that, not themselves; but the net effect is that everyone there is praying for the better thinking (or "better heart") of everyone else there, and IMO that is always a good prayer!

Similarly, we often use an old song based on a spiritual, "Standing in the need of prayer," which is for "not my brother not my sister, but it's me, Oh Lord, standing in the need of prayer." It goes on to list all the other people usually seen as wrong, reminding the singer that it's not those people who are the rock in the shoe, but ourselves, standing in the need of prayer (forgiveness).

Mississippi John Hurt understood all this better than I think we do:

If you don't love your [insert relationship], don't spread [him/her] name abroad,
Blessed be the Name of the Lord.
Just hold [her/him] in your bosom, and carry [him/her] home to God,
Blessed be the Name of the Lord.


Verses name all the people/roles in the typical church body. Who HERE gonna pick on MJH?!?!?!


Another line from a song based on a spiritual-- a floating verse:

You can talk about me just as much as you please,
Jes' long as you talk about me down on your knees.

~Susan

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: wysiwyg
Date: 23 Dec 07 - 02:32 PM

That's the thing people who believe the gospels as history NEVER seem to want to talk about.

I'm sorry that the well-educated, hardworking theologians are usually kept busy (where their paychecks come from), in church, because that's where the scholars I know usually DO talk about exactly that in what is often called a Theological Reflection.

And I am sorry that the people willing to jaw with you about that point have not been to class of late, and are self-educatedly sure that they know it ALL, just as those who disagree are self-educatedly sure THEY know it all. :~)

~Susan

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 23 Dec 07 - 04:46 PM

730-odd posts and growing. The thing that amazes me the most is the number of people who know the truth. The theists, the gnostics, the humanists and the scientists. So many people, so convinced they are right on so many viewpoints. No wonder wars still happen!

:D

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: john f weldon
Date: 23 Dec 07 - 04:54 PM

Oh Dave, not everyone is that cranky.
I'm right about everything, I admit, but I'm a peaceful (possibly even wimpy) kinda guy.
Two of my best friends are VERY religious (one RC, another evangelist) and we tease each other but always remain friends.

Love trumps ideology any day.

(Hey didn't I just coin a nice Xmas phrase?)

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 23 Dec 07 - 05:03 PM

But you can't be as right as me, john f...:-P

What is it with them Budhists btw? Moslems blow up Christians, Jews bomb the Moslems, Christians kick the %^&* out of everyone. Budhists? What the hell do they do? Nothing! Don't they take their religion seriously or something?

:D

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Amos
Date: 23 Dec 07 - 09:08 PM

They understand the spiritual nature of the individual better than them other guys do, is what it is. So they steer clear of must-desire or must-resist or must-fight or must-defend and find the Better Way and the Middle Path amongst all that brouhaha and tanglefoot.


A

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Don Firth
Date: 23 Dec 07 - 09:19 PM

Well, as a matter of fact, they apparently do.

Too many people who adhere to the other religions don't really pay enough attention to what their religion tells them. And this, often, is the despair of other members of those same religions. There is a percentage of Christians who give other Christians a bad name, and the same with Muslims and Jews.

'Twas ever thus. It isn't religion per se. It's some of the people involved, especially those who are intolerant of any beliefs other than their own.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: 282RA
Date: 23 Dec 07 - 09:41 PM

>>because that's where the scholars I know usually DO talk about exactly that in what is often called a Theological Reflection.<<

But since they don't up and quit, what they are obviously doing is trying to find some way to rationalize that when Jesus sppoke of the last days coming in the times of his listeners, he didn't really mean it. I mean, if they took it at face value, they'd have to admit he was wrong, that Christianity as an organized religion is a sham and walkl away from it. I'm certain if any other prophet or god man had said this, Christians would instantly point it out as a justification for why they would never follow this personage.

>>And I am sorry that the people willing to jaw with you about that point have not been to class of late, and are self-educatedly sure that they know it ALL, just as those who disagree are self-educatedly sure THEY know it all. :~)<<

I don't care about them and wasn't asking them. I was asking GUEST JESUS. I'd rather hear it from him because from anyone else, it's just an opinion that others may buy but most will not.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Riginslinger
Date: 23 Dec 07 - 11:54 PM

"So many people, so convinced they are right on so many viewpoints. No wonder wars still happen!"

                Most of what I know of the "New Testament" I know from reading "The Last Tempation of Christ" by Nikos Kazantzakis. It all kind of made sense from that point of view. It makes no sense at all to me from the point of view of people like Dr. James Dobson.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Mrrzy
Date: 24 Dec 07 - 10:34 AM

You said it, Doug Chadwick!

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Amos
Date: 24 Dec 07 - 11:48 AM

"Some 2,000 years after the birth of the Lord, what does the Savior see when he regards the world from deep within it (ÒThe Kingdom of God is within youÓ)? The population of Europe, once the cradle of the faith, is shrinking, and of those who remain an ever-growing percentage are now Muslim, and in France perhaps more Muslims than Christians actually attend services on a weekly basis." (Excerpt from a local news-sheet.

This is the kind of cognitive madness that just makes me want to spit. Parsing the paragraph above, it is a rich confection of innuendo, myth, false data, fear-mongering and thinly-disguised group hatism. Yet it is garbed in this thin veneer of sincerity and metaphysics and thoughtfulness , like a rotten apple painted red, as though it were to be taken on board by someone too stupid to notice the difference.   It is not genuinely thoughtful; it is spiteful.

This sort of manipulative rhetoric ticks me off, and makes me irritable, and wanting to throw my hands up in disgust.

Amos

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Riginslinger
Date: 24 Dec 07 - 12:10 PM

Another way to define it might be: mankind was making progress in France until they started letting Muslims in. Now they're back to square-one.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Bill D
Date: 24 Dec 07 - 12:45 PM

Buried inside many of the statements like Amos quoted are assumptions that they are true.

"...what does the Savior see..." is of that type, as is "...if Jesus returned today, he'd..." and many others. This might be appropriate IN church, where a minister is explaining to a group who are all believers and merely looking for guidance within a belief system, but it is used all too often in public utterances by folks like several of our current presidental candidates.

One of the most egregious examples was in the case of former judge Roy Moore placing a display of "10 commandments" in a public building in Alabama and arguing that he had the 'right' to "acknowlege" Jesus. The very formulation of his claim assumed that he, Moore, had 'the answer', and that it needed to superimposed on ALL situations.

Folks who think like that simply do not comprehend that there might be other views that are relevant and that they might actually be denigrating other faiths and insulting those who don't believe precisely as they do.
   There is little you can say to them...it is like telling a small child "NO!" when they are doing something inappropriate, and can't understand why...and it is a fine line we must walk to allow them to practice their religion, while restraining their ability to foist it on others.

When a set of beliefs is incorporated in the very language structure some people use to explain & discuss, it is EXTREMELY difficult to tell them why you are upset at their presumptuousness.
   I truly appreciate those who can refer to their beliefs and religious preferences and practice them within their group and NOT expect others to feel the same. I have been to churches which were open and welcoming to those who were interested without trying to pin people down. I wish there were more like that.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Riginslinger
Date: 25 Dec 07 - 09:40 AM

"I truly appreciate those who can refer to their beliefs and religious preferences and practice them within their group and NOT expect others to feel the same."


                   Bill D. - That's fine as far as it goes, but when somebody (or a group) practices their faith and it has an extremely negative effect on the greater society, why would you expect the greater society to tolerate it (them)?

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: M.Ted
Date: 25 Dec 07 - 11:46 AM

Riginslinger--you said "but when somebody (or a group) practices their faith and it has an extremely negative effect on the greater society, why would you expect the greater society to tolerate it (them)?"

Sounds like what the French Monarchy said about the Huguenots, and what the Nazis said about the Jews.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Bill D
Date: 25 Dec 07 - 11:58 AM

*smile*...well, Riginslinger, the answer to that would take a VERY long post. Suffice it to say right now that I DON'T expect society to 'tolerate' "extremely negative" effects. That is essentially what is happening in Iraq etc., right now. Much of the conflict (on both sides) is being fueled by religious attitudes, de facto, if no . In a sense, we are not 'tolerating' some of the Muslim attitudes about using bombs to assure entry into Paradise.

Now...in my country (USA) just who am I supposed to refuse to 'tolerate'?...and how am I supposed to decide which practices are over the line? And IF I decide, how am I supposed to DO anything about it? There are religious groups and individuals whose practices do not bother me in the least....and if we were to attempt to 'control' the practices of some groups, how do we avoid stepping on the toes of others who are less of a problem?
   Do YOU want to be the guy who draws the line? I hope you don't have some idea of curtailing ALL religion? (You think Prohibition was a dismal failure...try restricting folks 'right to practice beliefs'!)

In short, all we can really do is talk, educate, vote...and hope that time brings reason and a way to coexist comfortably.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Riginslinger
Date: 25 Dec 07 - 12:55 PM

M.Ted - Read into it what you will, but I think there are problems of a serious nature in American that stem both directly and indirectly from religious groups.



      "(You think Prohibition was a dismal failure...try restricting folks 'right to practice beliefs'!)"


    Bill D. - Yes, I would agree. Religion is a lot like alcoholism. And I pretty much agree with your closing line as well.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Amos
Date: 25 Dec 07 - 01:01 PM

The issue of the commons has to do with acts, not beliefs. The point at which religious "realities" come under the law of civil conduct is the point when actions violating the civil code of conduct are committed.

Those acts are fully covered by civil law and should be prosecuted on those grounds as civil torts or criminal acts. Such consequences should have no traffic with the religious or other convictions behind the acts. Anymore than the delusory hallucinations prompting a random assault against a stranger have anythjing to do with the facts of the crime.

A

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: M.Ted
Date: 26 Dec 07 - 12:32 AM

I'm with Amos--anybody that breaks the law, whether they are religious or not, is dealt with through the legal system. Beyond that, who is to blame for what is a moot point.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Riginslinger
Date: 26 Dec 07 - 07:50 AM

While I think there are laws that ought to be enacted or changed, enforcing the laws in place that are not now enforced would be a good start.

                Allowing regilious bodies to use their tax-exempt status to formulated capital and then use it to their own advantage in what is suppose to be a free market place is one example, and using religious institutions to promote political candidates and direct public policy is another. These things could be pursued legally, or course, it religious bodies would give up their tax exempt status.