BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: GUEST,petr
Date: 11 Dec 07 - 09:06 PM

Do people that believe in GOSH go to HECK?

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Peace
Date: 11 Dec 07 - 08:46 PM

Oh, fer krissake. This main-stream enough for you?

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: MaineDog
Date: 11 Dec 07 - 08:30 PM

:(

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: TheSnail
Date: 11 Dec 07 - 08:22 PM

Jeri

Snail, it's starting to look to me like 'stalking' isn't as over-the-top a word as it did at first. He's left the discussion. You'd look less lost if you stopped trolling for him.

So because he has chosen to leave the discussion I have no right of reply? I have no personal quarrel with Peace but he has said things about science that I wish to challenge. Has he won the field by leaving it?

No belief involved in science? Of course there is! Hypotheses are beliefs. Conclusions may be beliefs.

No they are not! I'm quite happy to discuss that if you like.

Peace didn't say "10 random people" wouldn't know who Tesla was. He said "Why has Tesla been marginalized by main-stream science?". As evidence he quoted an article from the Colorada Springs Independant; not known as a main-stream science journal.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Riginslinger
Date: 11 Dec 07 - 07:12 PM

"That's why I think the true evil isn't in belief or non-belief in a thing but in telling other people not to imagine..."

                Which is exactly why religion is true evil.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Jeri
Date: 11 Dec 07 - 06:48 PM

Snail, it's starting to look to me like 'stalking' isn't as over-the-top a word as it did at first. He's left the discussion. You'd look less lost if you stopped trolling for him.

Regarding Tesla, I could ask 10 random people to name famous people involved with electrical discovery. Edison would be among them because of the light bulb. Would Tesla? I doubt it. If you think having... shifting mod here... if you think getting stuff named after you after you're dead is important, fine. I don't think it was what floated Tesla's boat.

No belief involved in science? Of course there is! Hypotheses are beliefs. Conclusions may be beliefs. The data isn't, but the reason why there are disagreements is because of the different interpretations of what the data proves. The things about science that doesn't involve belief is the data, and the fact that if an experiment is valid, it can be repeated again and again.

You don't have science without hypotheses and interpretations. We need that spark of imagination to learn anything. That's why I think the true evil isn't in belief or non-belief in a thing but in telling other people not to imagine, to dream, and to find their own beliefs. True, some folks will try to prove them and others will be satisfied with what they have, but EVERYBODY gets to decide for themselves... which is probably what pisses a few folks off so much.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Bill D
Date: 11 Dec 07 - 06:30 PM

"... There is a reason to suppose that consciousness (I prefer not to use the term "self") survives the death of the body."

What is required to make this supposition? I don't suppose any such thing. Statements such as that comprise some of the real conceptual difficulties that we face in the whole discussion.

(as one who usually gets deeply into these discussions, I find this one very hard to get a handle on, and I have been too busy to sort out my many reactions and opinions well enough to do justice to the detailed claims & counter-claims)

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Amos
Date: 11 Dec 07 - 06:09 PM

Therefore, God is a circle. Makes perfect sense.



A

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: M.Ted
Date: 11 Dec 07 - 05:51 PM

Ron's observation seems to have encouraged the "usual" suspects, rather than having brought them to their senses. For myself, two things are apparent:

1) Gravity must exist, otherwise, how could people go around in circles?

2)God must exist, since he is the prime cause of people going around in these circles.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: TheSnail
Date: 11 Dec 07 - 05:41 PM

Jeri

Snail, Peace has a habit of playing devil's advocate.

I don't have a problem with that, I would just like the right to reply.

Try to find the 'preposterous statements' he made, and you'll find questions only. Your mind turned them into statements. If something doesn't make sense to you, it might just be because you got it wrong.

Peace

some science is based on belief, too

No it isn't. I've already gone over this.

All triangles have 180 degrees (interior angles). That holds true until someone draws a triangle on a globe, and then it has 270 degrees. Then someone defines triangle as figure drawn on a flat surface, as if such a thing is at all possible in a universe that is curved. Even flat surfaces aren't flat.

Triangles and flat surfaces are theoretical concepts. Whether either of them can be constructed in the real universe is entirely irrelevant.

They have each lied to protect their respective 'positions of authority'. Remember the "Rule of 48".

Nobody lied. They got it wrong. It was put right. No 'positions of authority' or vested interests were at stake.

However, granted when you said that science tends to correct its mistakes once they find them. But I still don't trust either religions or science. Too many vested interests--in both.

I've already dealt with "tends". Peace is right not to trust the institutions of science or, at least, to hold them up to scrutiny. That is not the same thing as mistrusting science.

People who worship at the altar of science are not much different from people who worship at the altars of religions.

Oh, come ON! That is a declaration of personal prejudice not a rational statement.

why DO we develop/do bad stuff-whether in the name of science or the name of religion?

Individual scientists may 'develop/do bad stuff' because they are greedy, idealistic, patriotic or just plain nasty human beings. I don't think anybody does it 'in the name of science'.

In fact, I am very much supportive of the scientific method.

I'm sorry but the statements above show that Peace doesn't really understand the scientific method.

Good scientists explore possibilities of the physical reality by/with which we are surrounded.

At last, something we can agree on but they cannot choose what they are going to find before they find it. Physical reality is what it is.

Why has Tesla been marginalized by main-stream science?

Surely Peace was throwing down a challenge here. He quoted the Colorado Springs Independant. I quoted Wikipedia, the Public Broadcasting Service and the Tesla Memorial Society of New York.
In response I got -

Go stalk someone else, Snail. I have nothing to say to you. Not today, not tomorrow, not ever again.

I think science matters. Am I not allowed to say so?

(Oh bugger! I've descended into a cut-N-paste war.)

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: GUEST,282RA
Date: 11 Dec 07 - 05:15 PM

>>Oh, yes, and evidence for the non-survival of the psyche lies in brain-dead people. By destroying the BRAIN, you can destroy the self and leave the body alive. There is no way to destroy the body and leave the self alive, though, and it takes faith, not reason, to believe that the self survives the death of the body/brain.<<

Not at all. There is a reason to suppose that consciousness (I prefer not to use the term "self") survives the death of the body.

To be conscious at a bare minimum, I have to be able to recall experiences. If I was unconscious during an event then I cannot recall and so it cannot be an experience.

If I cannot recall an event at the moment then nothing can be known of the state of my consciousness when that event occurred. I may, for example, recall it later, in which case, it is an experience. If I can never recall it, then I was not conscious during that event and so it is not an experience.

But I was conscious at all the events I recall even if my recall is not perfect (and whose is?).

I must be able to remember events in order for them to have been experiences and I must be able to remember them as often as I want to. I must also be able to remember remembering them. Theoretically, I can remember experiences an infinite number of times.

NOW, suppose I am born at time T0, live a full life and then die at time T1. Further suppse that my consciousness is extinguished at time T1. How would I ever know I was conscious? The time interval from T0 to T1 has been reduced to zero. It becomes missing time.

BUT, I must be able to remember all my experiences in order to be conscious and must be able to remember them an infinite number of times if I choose to. Since I am conscious now (because I meet all the above requirements for consciousness), death cannot extinguish my consciousness. If it does, then I cannot be conscious now, which is a contradiction. So the conclusion is, death does not extinguish consciousness.

Now I'm not saying this is necessarily true but I am saying that to believe that consciousness survives the death of the body is not merely an act of faith opposed to reason.

However, this same argument also proves there is no eternal reward or punishment.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Amos
Date: 11 Dec 07 - 04:10 PM

Mrzzy:

The model that the brain has no owner, but is itelf the place where thought itself comes from out of its complexity of neurons, synapses and combinatorial multiples thereof, ignores the possibility that -- if the WERE a psyche it would apprently have to use the brain as a step-down transformer and switching device for command relay and pulling perceptics off the nerves.

Similarly, it is easy to imagine a superstitious or at least unsophisticated primitive person looking at a cell phone and wondering how all those conversations got into the little box of wires. "Every time you pick it up it starts telling some strange person's story! Amazing. WHat a machine!! SOmeday we will figure out the complex wiring int his thing, and see how those stories are generated by those little wires, capacitors, resistors and chokes. RIght now the complexity of the design is too great to see how it really works, but give us time."

I know the metaphor is stretched, but the fact that people can't operate bodies with damaged brains does not in any way prove that people ARE brains.

A

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Jeri
Date: 11 Dec 07 - 03:27 PM

Snail, Peace has a habit of playing devil's advocate. Just because he asks the questions doesn't mean he's putting forth an answer. Gets people who aren't paying attention all the time.

Try to find the 'preposterous statements' he made, and you'll find questions only. Your mind turned them into statements. If something doesn't make sense to you, it might just be because you got it wrong.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: wysiwyg
Date: 11 Dec 07 - 03:19 PM

Frank, thank you for the thumbnail sketch of your spiritual experience and your nice comments. Some time if it is of interest I would find it equally interesting to learn what led you to the extremely negative comments you've made from time to time, which you took responsibility for so articulately upthread. This particular thread, I think, is running its course and will wind to an end soon, so I will not look for that here (if indeed you would want to go into it at all). But I will be on the lookout for your posts in a new way as a result of our exchanges on this thread, and I have enjoyed thinking with you.

Thanks also for the reference to E'palians and thinking-- yes, reason is what we think of as the third leg of the stool our faith rests upon. Also it is often said that to embrace the best Anglicanism has to offer, one must be willing to live with/in/around/through ambiguity. I like to extend that by adding that it's best to also have a deep curiosity, and the ability to keep one's eyes wide open at all times and not look away from the difficult and the complex.

But yeah, the E'palians I know are pretty into that thinking thing. :~) Yet some of my best friends, who I think of as temporarily confused, have been fundies whose usual mode of thinking is pretty rigid. They're amazingly vulnerable, one on one, to a playful, inquiring spirit. :~)

~Susan

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Mrrzy
Date: 11 Dec 07 - 03:07 PM

Um - how in the world is my argument that you can have brain-dead bodies, but not brain-alive not-bodies, like the assertion that by destroying a cell-phone, you put an end to all conversations?

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: TheSnail
Date: 11 Dec 07 - 02:59 PM

Peace

Go stalk someone else, Snail. I have nothing to say to you. Not today, not tomorrow, not ever again.

Sorry it turned out this way, Peace. I'd always thought of you as one of the good guys. I'm dissappointed to find that you feel you can make preposterous statements about science without expecting anybody to disagree with you.

Why did you ask the question about Tesla if you didn't want an answer?

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Stringsinger
Date: 11 Dec 07 - 02:47 PM

Hi Susan,

I appreciated your comments.

"Where I may be diverging from your view is that my actions based on these and more-recently-embraced values has been greatly changed, strengthened, and made more "courageous," less "self-consicious," in the actions, the motives, the desired outcomes, the need even to know the outcomes.... actions that are enlivened and entwined with the personal presence of God with me when I take those actions."

I think I know where you are coming from. I have an odd background in religion. I was raised fairly agnostic/atheist from a predominantly Jewish lineage on my mother's side, who was herself raised as a Roman Catholic. I was at one time baptised as a Congregationalist, became a Unitarian, explored Nicheran Shoshu, the mod-Buddhist off-shoot and spent a little time with the Bahais. I also explored Siddha Yoga and from all of these travels derive my understanding of how some folks feel about their "conversion" experiences or the presence of a deity. Through all of that, I hesitate to condemn people who have their personal beliefs. I have, however, found freedom from religion liberating and as a result have developed a social-consciousness that I never would have had if I had remained with any of these spiritual-seeking enterprises.

"And the values themselves have changed, grown, developed; partly as a matter of intention based on new imperatives with which I agree from my faith, and partly as a result of the learnings I have had while doing not what I might have wanted to do, but what I felt was obedient to God's imperatives whether discerned from Scripture, the teachings of preachers, or the personal presence of God and His guidance before the act and His affirmation after the act."

I respect The Sermon on the Mount as did Jefferson. However, I regard it as important
mythology (in the Joseph Campbell sense). It is a blueprint for sane behavior whether I believe in an actual Jesus or not.

"For me, this is one of the best aspects of my life in the faith as I look at it dynamically in present time and as I look back reflectively-- the constant challenge that takes me where I had not gone and where I would not have gone whie in the grip of my own interests. "

I understand this fully and feel the same way although in my experience I can share those views as a process in letting go of God.

"And these actions are conformed to my love of our Lord-- very much NOT a matter of rigid, rule-driven obedience by rote."

You are far too intelligent to be "rule-driven by obedience by rote". I understand Epsicopalians to be the more intellectual of the prominent religions and I am reminded
that there exists an atheist Episcopalian who loves the sense of community and ritual that is provided as well as the residual religious knowledge about the bible that he absorbs.
He nonetheless remains an atheist.

"I'm sure I'm not articulating this well, no matter how accurately I may try to write. But I think it is very, very different from the life in faith that most anti-religionists have witnessed, experienced, or been raised within or around. I think it is very different from what people rail against, and from the assumptions that drive their animus."

I think you have expressed your views very well. I am more sympathetic to them then I have communicated, even though this sense of liberation, internal strength, development of social consciousness and a kind of hopefulness emanates from my personal quest and arrival that a God is not the answer for me and I am relieved of that structural burden. That doesn't make me hostile or unsympathetic to your experience which I can respect without having to embrace it personally. I remember times in my life where I believed in a God and thought it transforming and life-changing. For me, it was something I went through and I don't regret it because it did make me more understanding of this feeling in others. Now I see it differently. I think one can be an un-believer and still have the awe and sense of wonder when you look at the sky, the course of evolution, the amazing accomplishments of science that are constructive, the tuning in to Einstein's capacity for the appreciation without his embracing a personal God. His was a God of Spinoza, more pantheonic than monothestic. Carl Sagan communicated this sense of "spirituality" without religious references and his life reflects a deep committment and respect for
the world and the universe.

As to whether there is any proof of God(s) or Jesus, it is a logical fallacy that you can prove a negative. The question is unanswerable in any sense because of its built in illogicality.
I prefer to see hard evidence before I will accept someone else's account. But in no way will I condemn good behavior however it is motivated.

A word about the Manichean use of "Good and Evil". I reject these as absolutes.
I prefer terms like "dysfunctional", "anti-social", "pathological", and other operative terms that define behavior.

Once again, I respect where you are coming from and in no way want to denigrate your personal experience.

Frank Hamilton

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Peace
Date: 11 Dec 07 - 01:42 PM

Go stalk someone else, Snail. I have nothing to say to you. Not today, not tomorrow, not ever again.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Amos
Date: 11 Dec 07 - 12:59 PM

Oh, yes, and evidence for the non-survival of the psyche lies in brain-dead people. By destroying the BRAIN, you can destroy the self and leave the body alive. There is no way to destroy the body and leave the self alive, though, and it takes faith, not reason, to believe that the self survives the death of the body/brain.

I would counter your argument, Mrrz, by likening it to the assertion that by destroying a cell-phone, you put an end to all conversations. It removes the self from the netowrk, but leaves the body alive, no?

As to faith versus reason, I suggest you investigate past efforts to document cases of reincarnation, of which there are several extensive ones, with close attention to those cases where information made it across the boundary which could not otherwise have been explained, of which there are a few salient instances. In an earlier thread onthis subject, I forget the title, we discussed OBEs and NDEs, and there was one particular case of a patient walking away from her body during complete anaesthesia and observing things from the ceiling and nearby locations. You may recall the story. One of tyhe things she reported afterwards was the location of a sneaker that had been dropped onto a ledge a story or two above the floor where the operation was being held, something she could not possibly have known from any point of view her body had taken. But the perception was later corroborated by an independent observer, who went and found it exactly where and as she described it. Sorry I don't have the references to hand here at work. All I can say is, I recommend that this subject be one about which you maintain an open curiousity.

A

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: TheSnail
Date: 11 Dec 07 - 12:55 PM

Peace

In fact, I am very much supportive of the scientific method.

I'm sorry, Peace, but some of your statements about science suggest that you have a rather poor understanding of the scientific method.

The US tobacco giant Philip Morris set up a network of scientists throughout Europe who were paid to cast doubt on the risks of passive smoking and highlight other possible causes of respiratory problems

As exposed by this article in the Lancet. In other words, by the scientific community.

Some views about Tesla.

Try these -
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nikola_Tesla
http://www.pbs.org/tesla/
http://www.teslasociety.com/biography.htm

Tesla has an SI unit, a crater on the Moon, a minor planet and an international airport, amongst other things, named after him. If that is being marginalized, I could live with it.

I would suggest you extend you reading about science beyond the Colorado Springs Independant.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: john f weldon
Date: 11 Dec 07 - 12:43 PM

General relativity indicates the gravity is merely a curvature of space, which makes it a kind of illusion. If Newton's Theory had been accepted on "faith", Einstein's work would have been ignored.

Does it matter? If you use a GPS, yes. They won't work with Newton's formulae.

I still think Newton was a very clever fellow, though.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: GUEST,Mrr at work
Date: 11 Dec 07 - 11:46 AM

Oh, yes, and evidence for the non-survival of the psyche lies in brain-dead people. By destroying the BRAIN, you can destroy the self and leave the body alive. There is no way to destroy the body and leave the self alive, though, and it takes faith, not reason, to believe that the self survives the death of the body/brain.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Wesley S
Date: 11 Dec 07 - 11:29 AM

Can we all agree then that we ALL believe in gravity? Or is that open for discussion also?

Just so it's clear - I've always believed in gravity. It was my parents belief before me too - there was a point where I rejected it as brain washing. But I've come back around and consider myself a believer again.

Can I get an AMEN somebody????

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: haddocker
Date: 11 Dec 07 - 10:56 AM

I think that the post by PEACE regarding the various interpretations of the occurrences of life was at once profound and hilarious. Kudos to you brother! I took a course in World Religions and studied them all. This was an appropriate summarization which I might certainly use if writing a paper on Interfaith dialogue. Peace and Good Will to all who abide in this house, not only in this season, but in all seasons.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Amos
Date: 11 Dec 07 - 10:20 AM

Well, with all due respect, I think it has been an interesting exchange of views, regardless of who initiated it.

The notion, touched on by Peace, that existence comprises multiple domains, one being the quantum-based particle-driven material space-time continuum, and one being the universe of attention, thought, elan vital, "soul" (whatever it is) and such phenomena, is an interesting one to me, and I consider it a good working hypothesis to account for a lot of ordinary data as well as much rigorous scientific data. I think, also, that there may be a third domain of "agreed upon thoughts and feelings" that builds social tides and pressures that are neither physical nor spiritual and have their own kind of inertia and momentum, which is the subject of the relatively new field of memetics. Popular perceptions and emotions based on "group think", for example, would come under this heading, as would those confusing "supposed to" beliefs of moral agreement which sometimes seem disconnected from real life outside a given tribe.

I could even suggest the possibility that acheiving balance in all three domains is the whole task of human sanity, and imbalance between them the origin of insanity.

It's an interesting model,anyway.


A

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Peace
Date: 11 Dec 07 - 09:52 AM

It eventually comes down to one person and that person's beliefs.

No one has yet asked what mine are. So, at this point it looks like a few people expressing an opinion about something (in this case, my beliefs) they believe. Take a good look at yourselves.

In fact, I am very much supportive of the scientific method. But people are confusing two worlds and failing to understand the world they do not support. Good scientists explore possibilities of the physical reality by/with which we are surrounded. People who believe in G-d explore the possibilities of the 'other' world by/with which we are surrounded. Personally, I don't really care who believes what.

"News
Tobacco company set up network of sympathetic scientists
Clare Dyer, legal correspondent, BMJ


The US tobacco giant Philip Morris set up a network of scientists throughout Europe who were paid to cast doubt on the risks of passive smoking and highlight other possible causes of respiratory problems, according to confidential documents from the company's law firm released on the internet.

The company's consultants included "an editor" of the Lancet, an adviser to a Commons select committee, and members of working groups of the International Agency for Research in Cancer, claims a memo from the US lawyers Covington and Burling.

Clues in the documents point to the Lancet contact as the late Petr Skrabanek, who was not an editor but a regular contributor who wrote editorials among other articles. Robin Fox, the Lancet's editor from 1990 to 1995, said it was "very likely" that Dr Skrabanek, who was an associate professor of community health at Trinity College, Dublin, was the scientist referred to in the memo.

Under the heading "Lancet" the memo says: "One of our consultants is an editor of this very influential British medical journal, and is continuing to publish numerous reviews, editorials, and comments on environmental tobacco smoke and other issues." Dr Fox said Dr Skrabanek did not write editorials on smoking."

The rest of the story may be found at

http://www.bmj.com/cgi/content/full/316/7144/1553/d

The prevailing presumption is that anyone who thinks science/scientists are manipulated for other agendas has to be a believer in G-d and anyone who believes in G-d has to be anti science. That is not logical.

Some views about Tesla.


Y'all can keep this thread because it is going nowhere, imo. At least as far as my time is concerned. Keep well, all.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: GUEST,Mrr at work
Date: 11 Dec 07 - 08:58 AM

NO, not We all choose to believe what we all choose to believe. You may say that the course of the planets is controlled by gravity. OK. And science can and does demonstrate that. Others may choose to say that God created gravity, and no one can prove otherwise. That is missing the point. There is evidence for gravity - so "believing" in it is a conclusion, not a choice in what to believe. There is no evidence for god creating gravity, so there is no reason to believe that. Thus that would require faith, which belief in gravity does not.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: john f weldon
Date: 11 Dec 07 - 08:25 AM

Peace...
Is your interest in Tesla based on the fact that he called his proposed killing machine a "Peace Ray"? (Actually true, I didn't make this up!)

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: TheSnail
Date: 11 Dec 07 - 03:50 AM

Peace

Why has Tesla been marginalized by main-stream science?

What makes you think he has?

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: GUEST,dianavan
Date: 11 Dec 07 - 01:16 AM

Whew, I can't possibly read all of this but it seems obvious that those who know Jesus or have experienced God will believe. Those who have not formed the relationship, do not believe.

Others prefer to say maybe there is and maybe there isn't.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Ron Davies
Date: 10 Dec 07 - 09:17 PM

So, as Mick has just pointed out, Troll "Ed" tossed the apple of discord into Mudcat--and the usual suspects immediately dove for it--over 400 posts worth.

A singularly useless waste of time--even worse than political threads. At least on political threads there are new developments to consider.

As if anybody can "prove" to the satisfaction of "Ed" or anybody else that God exists--or to any religious person that the opposite is true. Everybody knows it's a question of your own personal view. Nobody is about to be convinced either way. And tolerance takes another body blow, courtesy of an obvious agent provocateur.

Well, hope you continue to have fun. At least it's not absurdly long cut-and-pastes.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: TheSnail
Date: 10 Dec 07 - 08:02 PM

Peace

Do not scientists hired by 'stop smoking' interest groups go head to head with tobacco company scientists? Why do they seem to arrive at different conclusions?

I've no idea. Give me some references and I'll have a look.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: TheSnail
Date: 10 Dec 07 - 08:00 PM

Peace

Might I suggest Snail that you know not one damned thing about me. And because of that you should keep your assumptions to yourself?

Sorry Peace, didn't mean to cause offence. That was intened as a rather light hearted quip having self censored my initial reaction. My assumptions are based entirely on the things you have said about science on here some of which seem to be based on prejudice rather than knowledge.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Amos
Date: 10 Dec 07 - 06:05 PM

The Zeitgeist Release video has some strong sentiments. Worth watching.

A

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Peace
Date: 10 Dec 07 - 05:58 PM

Why has Tesla been marginalized by main-stream science?

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Peace
Date: 10 Dec 07 - 05:54 PM

"Those who claimed that smoking was safe were aware of the falsehood of their claim. They were not disagreeing, they were lying. It's a different matter."


Oh.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Amos
Date: 10 Dec 07 - 05:21 PM

Good luck in your travels and your travails, Mick. I'd love to know more when you have the time.


A

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Bee
Date: 10 Dec 07 - 05:17 PM

I actually did see a page of computer text which appeared to be 'in mid-air' in front of the computer screen, but it was an optical illusion caused by putting 12 point text lines, two rows at a time, in red, on a black background, with white lines above and below. I remember it because it was devilish hard to read and might be useful for a project sometime.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: wysiwyg
Date: 10 Dec 07 - 03:33 PM

☺

~S~

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Bill D
Date: 10 Dec 07 - 03:23 PM

ahem..." ...Bill acknowledged that You exist."

not if it's in quotes, Susan. ☺ All I did was accuse a not-so-clever troll of pretending.
(I dunno what I'd do if a post suddenly appeared in mid-air in FRONT of the computer screen. Probably 1)check my meds. 2)ask for an extended interview to check credentials. (I gotta stay 'faithful' to my skeptical principles, don't I?)

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: wysiwyg
Date: 10 Dec 07 - 03:08 PM

No Mick.... I didn't think you were referring to me.... I thought you were having a bad day.

The "pie in the sky" I referred to was the better times some of us reached in this thread, which are not at all like some of the past threads on the same topic in the past. As one poster saidsimilarly somewhere upthread, yes it did start as a nasty thing, but it soon eclipsed that intention to discuss things of more importance.

I hope you reach better times of your own, soon; I hope also that you will be able to remember that you are not alone in the good fight you describe.

Best wishes for a happy Christmas soon, with fam,ily,

~Susan

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: john f weldon
Date: 10 Dec 07 - 02:41 PM

Peace -
I'm not sure how smoking got in this thread, but studies by scientists working for big tobacco usually came to the same obvious conclusions as those of the independents. The studies were suppressed by those who paid for them: executives, not scientists.

Even in the fifties and sixties one fact was clear: smoking was a major cause of lung cancer. There was no actual disagreement about this, unless you consider outright lying a disagreement.

Those who claimed that smoking was safe were aware of the falsehood of their claim. They were not disagreeing, they were lying. It's a different matter.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Big Mick
Date: 10 Dec 07 - 02:36 PM

Actually, Susan, I wasn't referring to you. The fact that it seemed so to you should probably mean more to you than me.

This thread is a troll generated discussion designed to get the participants to act in a predictable way. It covers no new ground, is not about a subject that consensus could be reached on, and the same players are essentially saying the same things. And now, I am one of those.

As to pie in the sky....., you really should learn to recognize metaphor. I am actually headed back out on the road, not to return home to my family until two days before Christmas. The work I will be doing involves whether folks will have health insurance, whether they will be unjustly detained by folks carrying automatic weapons, and what kind of lifestyle their children will have. I guess that qualifies in some minds as pie in the sky. But those are the minds I am fighting every day. I just hope that I am sufficiently equipped for these fights, as the implications are pretty big for the folks that are in the fight with me.

I just jumped in to point out that some folks just still seem to get pulled in by these online parasites. Sorry about that. I have been gone a while and didn't realize that I had interrupted your drumbeat. Must remember those rules of social etiquette for your world.

Got to go catch a flight.

Mick

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: wysiwyg
Date: 10 Dec 07 - 02:20 PM

It is about you all beating a dead horse, without regard to which side of the divide you fall on.


Hm! :~)

Mick, when I once wrote essentially that about a thread that had its share of negativity, you called it one of the best discussions you'd ever seen. Perhaps you meant to buck me up. I'd like to buck you up a bit too, because there were actually a few new thoughts in this thread that troubled you so, as well as some stellar evidence that some folks do actually keep thinking and reflecting-- they they learn from folks around them--

And IMO that's ALWAYS good news, no matter how much it may seem to disappear in a morass of stuck thinking.

Hoping your trusty low D showed you that pie in the sky somewhere near Orion,

~Susan

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Peace
Date: 10 Dec 07 - 02:04 PM

Tell me this all you smokers and non-smokers out there. Do not scientists hired by 'stop smoking' interest groups go head to head with tobacco company scientists? Why do they seem to arrive at different conclusions?

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Big Mick
Date: 10 Dec 07 - 02:03 PM

....and folks wonder why I have made myself scarce. I wish I had found this when it was started, as I would have closed it forthwith. A troll makes a statement bound to make the puppets dance, and they, quite predictably, do just that.

What I believe, or do not believe, is my business. It will be conducted in the privacy of my own processes. Whether I am a believer, an agnostic, or atheist; whether I live an ethical life or not, is not what this thread is about. It is about you all beating a dead horse, without regard to which side of the divide you fall on.

Those that suggest that they have never met people of faith that acted on their convictions for the good of all, are idiots and bigots. How many examples do you want? Ever heard of the Berrigans? How about the good Sisters who went to jail for smearing blood on the missile silos? How about Mother Theresa who could care less what your religion was, or even if you had one? She just cared for those abandoned, or ignored by you ivory tower idiots. What you do with Mohatma? How about Father Flanigan, who didn't care about anything but living up to his vows to help kids without regard to religion, or race. This was heady and dangerous stuff in the early twentieth century. We could use folks like him today. Among Mudcatters, some of the most ethical and faith filled folks I have met are Pagan. They are excellent examples to hold up to your kids of how one should walk on this path.

Those that suggest that atheists, secularists, and agnostics don't live ethical, value filled lives, are likewise idiots and bigots. The list would be too long to fill, of the public figures. But right here on our own Mudcat, of those of you I have met, Bill D and Amos spring immediately to mind as people that are as good an example of caring, ethical and responsible people as one could find. They present their views in a respectful way, and challenge one's own ideas in the way that good discourse should. I see a number of you taking the secular view, and a number of you taking the faith community view, that need to take a lesson from them.

Back to the swamp, and my hill. Anyone seen my trusty Low D whistle? I think we need to get away from the noise and make some music for Orion....

Mick

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Peace
Date: 10 Dec 07 - 01:39 PM

Might I suggest Snail that you know not one damned thing about me. And because of that you should keep your assumptions to yourself?

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: TheSnail
Date: 10 Dec 07 - 12:01 PM

Peace

Maybe. But in the biology book I learned from, and the teacher at that time, the text (in the arly 1960s) used that info.

Don't blame science for the inadequacies of your educational system. I blame the college principles myself.

However, granted when you said that science tends to correct its mistakes once they find them.

It doesn't "tend" to correct its mistakes, that's how it works. Scientists are highly competitive. As soon as one announces his theory, the others will fall on it like wolves to try and tear it apart.

People who worship at the altar of science are not much different from people who worship at the altars of religions.

Might I suggest, Peace, that you personal antipathy towards science is blurring your critical faculties?

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: number 6
Date: 10 Dec 07 - 11:42 AM

"Tens of millions of atheists around the world lead lives filled with hope. We hope for many of the same things that Christians hope for: peace in our time, a better life for our children, justice for all, an end to poverty, and for a chance to enjoy our lives here and now."

"The main difference between us and religious believers is that we accept that these things can be achieved only through our own efforts."


... thanks for sharing that with us Amos.

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Amos
Date: 10 Dec 07 - 11:39 AM

"X-RAYS produced by particle accelerators have confirmed the authorship of paintings and probed the structure of fossils. Now they are illuminating the religious rites of ancient Africans.

Pascale Richardin's team at the Centre for Research and Restoration of the Museums of France in Paris exposed the coating on sculptures used between the 12th and 19th centuries in the rituals of the Dogon and Bamama people of Mali to X-rays produced at the European Synchrotron Radiation Facility in Grenoble.

The coating produced the telltale fluorescence of protein molecules laden with haem, an iron-containing group found in blood (Analytical Chemistry, DOI: 10.1021/ac070993k). "Blood is often reported in religious contexts, linked to animal sacrifices," says Richardin..." (New Scientist).

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Hmmmmmm....



A