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Subject: RE: Fairytale of New York censored by Beeb! From: lefthanded guitar Date: 28 Dec 18 - 06:00 PM This thread promoted me to (re) listen to this song, which I always liked and still do. The use of the term faggot doesn't offend me b/c it is used in context ( as several posters here have already stated) as the quote of a character in the song. It is a fiercely beautiful and savage tale of the tangle of dashed hopes of love and life. It is cinema in a song. Randy Newman has faced similar criticisms in writing songs in the voice of dysfunctional, unlikeable and/or despicable characters - the redneck, the slave trader in Sail Away, even the song Short People , which some listeners literally took as a diatribe against short people ( instead of a ironic observation of bigotry in general) Some folks just don't 'get it' - thankfully Ray Charles did get it and recorded the definitive version of Sail Away. These type of songs are more like short stories or plays, set to music , and should be regarded as such imho. That said, time has give us a different perspective on hurling about bigoted insults. If I were gay. I think I might take offense at hearing this term in a song, just as we are no longer as tolerant of calling people names like the n- word, giudo, kike, ragheads, red dots. etc. - especially if the words are hatefully used by a bigot. Anyone who wants to sing this song as pc, can easily substitute a word like ' maggot' - though I wouldn't change it myself. I also wonder of some of the objection to the song stems from the fact that it can be perceived as a rejection of the spirit of Christmas. Well, in that case, they can take an ear to Jackson Browne's The Rebel Jesus. Which also examines the underside of this season of joy. I listen to both Fairytale and Rebel; and find them powerful and moving songs of the season- even as much as I look forward to the annual performances of O Holy Night, or The Christmas song by Darlene Love. At any rate, glad the song was reinstated to the playlist. For whatever reason. |
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Subject: RE: Fairytale of New York censored by Beeb! From: GUEST,akenaton Date: 26 Dec 18 - 10:56 AM :0)...Jim you should be on the telly......you're not Jim Davidson by any chance? |
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Subject: RE: Fairytale of New York censored by Beeb! From: GUEST,Jim Knowledge Date: 26 Dec 18 - 05:55 AM I `ad that Vernon `awksworth-`arming in my cab the other day. `e`s the top sensor for the Auntie BBC.`e was scribbling away like tomorrow wasn`t coming. I said, "Morning Vernie. You doing your Christmas list or something?" `e said, "No Jim. We going to be playing that "Fairytale of New York" and we`ve got to be sure not to upset anybody". I said, "Go on then. What `ave you got in mind?" `e said, "`ere, let me read from this sheet for you. Whaddya think?" "Title:- Fairytale". Derogatory term. Use `omosexualstory. Verse 1:- Babe. remove contents re infants. Peedo interest. Old man. Use old person. More inclusive. Verse 2:- "Got on" suggests possible copulation. Use bet. More reference to babies. Use sweetheart. Too much "coming". Sexual connotations. Use arriving. Verse 3:- Wind . Suggest flatulence. Use cold, moving air. Broadway. Derogatory ref. to women. Use Personway. Verse 4:- Remove Queen. Derogatory `omosexual connotation. Sinatra swinging. Family might object to referring to his private parts. Kissed. Definitely out. Could lead to future accusations of sexual assault. "Me Too" might `ave something to say. Verse 5:- Boys of the Choir. The Pope might object in view of the latest revelations. Verse 6:- Bum. remove ref. to sensitive physical areas. Slut on a junk. This may not go down well with Chinese listeners. Suggests waterborne prostitution. Remove faggot. Derogatory `omosexual term and it is not nice calling somebody a bundle of small branches, tied around the middle and intended for the fire. Arse. See line above re physical parts. Verse 7:- `es referring to infants again. Delete it." I said, "Blimey! It`ll never rhyme with all those changes". `e said, "That don`t matter. It keeps the "snowflakes `appy!!" Whaddam I Like?? |
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Subject: RE: Fairytale of New York censored by Beeb! From: Senoufou Date: 25 Dec 18 - 09:36 AM Aw, it's on TV at this very moment! Feel a bit teary, it's quite a tragic song really, their lives are so pitiful. The word 'faggot' wasn't bleeped out thank goodness. |
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Subject: RE: Fairytale of New York censored by Beeb! From: Dave Hanson Date: 24 Dec 18 - 05:23 AM I like it. |
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Subject: RE: Fairytale of New York censored by Beeb! From: GUEST,Allan Conn Date: 24 Dec 18 - 04:25 AM "'So "The Rare Ould Mountain Dew" reminded him of his girlfriend did it Allan - WTF was she A Kentucky Moonshiner?? '" Seriously if folks don't want it to be about Irish immigrants fair enough then let it not be about that for you. It could be about any couple from anywhere that is plain. Just as Dirty Old Town could be about anywhere - though we know it is written about Salford. There is enough in the lyric to surmise that TFONY involves immigrants in New York though. Even the line "they have cars big as bars" suggests they are relative strangers to the US with the stereotype we hold here of the Americans having huge cars. Then there is enough in the lyric and enough in the other songs of the band and enough in the title and history to suggest the immigrants are Irish rather than from Ipswich or somewhere. If you don't want them to be then fair enough!!! It isn't really worth fretting over though. If someone sees that Irishness for themselves in the lyric they will see that. |
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Subject: RE: Fairytale of New York censored by Beeb! From: GUEST Date: 23 Dec 18 - 04:00 PM I've liked that song since I first heard it and never concerned myself with what time of year it was when I listened to it. |
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Subject: RE: Fairytale of New York censored by Beeb! From: meself Date: 23 Dec 18 - 03:17 PM Well, it sounds like you've had a generation or two on the east side of the pond who have grown up hearing the song at Christmas, and, presumably for most of them, only at Christmas, so ... I suspect it's a done deal out there in the real world. |
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Subject: RE: Fairytale of New York censored by Beeb! From: JHW Date: 23 Dec 18 - 02:51 PM Attaching Christmas to a song gives it airplay every year (and the excuse for seasonal renderings in folk clubs) |
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Subject: RE: Fairytale of New York censored by Beeb! From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 23 Dec 18 - 12:54 PM Maybe Shane was making the same kind of distinction between "Christmas Songs" and songs about Christmas that we might make about a distinction between songs like Home Lads Home and The Green Fields of France which are obviously about the War and War Songs. Would we call Christmas in the Trenches either a War Song or a Christmas Song? Anyway both songs are songs best sung around Christmas to bring out their meaning. Of course there are songs that weren't at all about Christmas which have become Christmas songs by virtue of how people regard them, for example Jingle Bells which was a Thanksgiving Song. The opinions of the people who wrote or performed them are totally irrelevant. As is generally the case - songs are free agents, nobody owns a song except in a financial way. |
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Subject: RE: Fairytale of New York censored by Beeb! From: GUEST,henryp Date: 23 Dec 18 - 06:45 AM All eight members of The Pogues return to the studio where their biggest hit - and the nation's favourite Christmas single - was recorded, to tell the story behind the song. Fairytale 2 I Was There; Steve Lillywhite, producer of the song - and husband of Kirsty MacColl - speaks to Adrian Chiles. Fairytale 3 |
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Subject: RE: Fairytale of New York censored by Beeb! From: Snuffy Date: 23 Dec 18 - 06:22 AM Agreed, DTG. And by the same token, songs that do mention Christmas don't have to be Christmas songs. |
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Subject: RE: Fairytale of New York censored by Beeb! From: Dave the Gnome Date: 23 Dec 18 - 06:05 AM I don't think Christmas songs have to mention christmas. Deck the halls is one that springs to mind. |
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Subject: RE: Fairytale of New York censored by Beeb! From: GUEST,henryp Date: 23 Dec 18 - 06:03 AM Singer Shane MacGowan and fellow Pogue Jem Finer had for some while been tossing around an idea for a Christmas song... The Life of a Song FT 22/23 December 2018 Fairytale |
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Subject: RE: Fairytale of New York censored by Beeb! From: Will Fly Date: 23 Dec 18 - 05:25 AM To my mind, a "Christmas song" is a song about Christmas and all associated with that festival. Shane M's song is about a relationship gone sour and being lamented about - all the more poignantly because it's set on Christmas Eve, traditionally a time of love, friendship, goodwill, etc. But a song about Christmas it ain't. Jona Lewie's "Stop The Cavalry" is in a similar position. In an interview for Channel 4's 100 Greatest Christmas Moments, Lewie said that the song was never intended as a Christmas hit, and that it was a protest song. The line 'Wish I was at home for Christmas' as well as the brass band arrangements made it an appropriately styled song to play around Christmas time. [Wikipedia] |
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Subject: RE: Fairytale of New York censored by Beeb! From: GUEST,Terray Date: 22 Dec 18 - 10:29 PM McGrath, I think you were refering to Bascom Lamar Lunsford in your last post. |
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Subject: RE: Fairytale of New York censored by Beeb! From: meself Date: 22 Dec 18 - 08:37 PM What IS a Christmas song, exactly? I would suggest that the only definitive quality of a Christmas song is that the world thinks of it as a Christmas song. You or I or Shane might not like it, but we'd be a trio of King Canutes .... |
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Subject: RE: Fairytale of New York censored by Beeb! From: Steve Shaw Date: 22 Dec 18 - 07:33 PM If Shane sez it's not a Christmas song, it's not a Christmas song. |
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Subject: RE: Fairytale of New York censored by Beeb! From: Senoufou Date: 22 Dec 18 - 07:01 PM 'Shane has always said it's not a Christmas song'. But many of the lyrics are about Christmas: "It was Christmas Eve babe, in the drunk tank..." "And the bells were ringing out for Christmas Day" "So happy Christmas, I love you baby..." "When you first took my hand on a cold Christmas Eve" Rather a lot about Christmas for it not to be a (sort of) Christmas song? |
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Subject: RE: Fairytale of New York censored by Beeb! From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 22 Dec 18 - 06:55 PM Rare Old Mountain Dew predates Good Old Mountain Dew by a good few years. It was written for an Irish play in 1882, and first put on a record in 1927 - which was only a year before Bascom Langford came up with the latter song, so perhaps that was influenced by it. Very different songs though, with very different moods. |
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Subject: RE: Fairytale of New York censored by Beeb! From: GUEST Date: 21 Dec 18 - 03:40 PM Shane has always said it is not a Christmas Song |
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Subject: RE: Fairytale of New York censored by Beeb! From: meself Date: 19 Dec 18 - 01:21 PM Don't think I'd worry myself too much about ol' Shane ... ! |
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Subject: RE: Fairytale of New York censored by Beeb! From: keberoxu Date: 19 Dec 18 - 01:13 PM Illegitimi nun carborundum, Shane. |
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Subject: RE: Fairytale of New York censored by Beeb! From: GUEST Date: 19 Dec 18 - 04:33 AM 'So "The Rare Ould Mountain Dew" reminded him of his girlfriend did it Allan - WTF was she A Kentucky Moonshiner?? ' Mountain Dew meant poteen before it meant Kentucky Moonshine, I suspect. |
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Subject: RE: Fairytale of New York censored by Beeb! From: r.padgett Date: 19 Dec 18 - 03:48 AM yes a fag not faggot doing chores at Public school (for the fee paying privileged Private schooling) in Upper class schools like Eton and Harrow and of course fag common usage for a cigarette still in use in England!! Ray |
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Subject: RE: Fairytale of New York censored by Beeb! From: Dave Hanson Date: 19 Dec 18 - 02:05 AM Someone doing chores for a senior public schoolboy was called a fag, not a faggot. Dave H |
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Subject: RE: Fairytale of New York censored by Beeb! From: Neil D Date: 19 Dec 18 - 01:29 AM There is some discussion here of different usages/meanings of the word faggot. I remember hearing another use of the word that I've wondered about for many years. In the movie "Tom Brown's Schooldays", filmed in 1951 but set in the 1830's, whenever an upperclassman wanted a young newbie to do a chore for him, he would shout the word faggot and a young boy would come running. At the time I saw the movie, some 50 years ago, I only knew the word as meaning a chunk of firewood. I wondered if because fetching firewood was one of the most common chores that the word had become a catchall for any service required of lowerclassmen. |
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Subject: RE: Fairytale of New York censored by Beeb! From: GUEST,Observer Date: 18 Dec 18 - 01:59 PM MacGowan himself said the song could also be about any couple anywhere. Precisely the point I made. So "The Rare Ould Mountain Dew" reminded him of his girlfriend did it Allan - WTF was she A Kentucky Moonshiner?? |
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Subject: RE: Fairytale of New York censored by Beeb! From: meself Date: 18 Dec 18 - 12:52 PM pfr: I'm with you there. I wasn't sure if you were referring to the original premise of the thread or the most recent posts. |
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Subject: RE: Fairytale of New York censored by Beeb! From: punkfolkrocker Date: 18 Dec 18 - 12:46 PM "pfr: I do hope that's not me you're thinking is getting "upset"" meself - I'm referring broadly to the internet enabled culture of folks being too easily offended by trivia, then expecting the majority rest of society to pander to their over sensitivities... I'm completely fed up hearing about all the latest 'controversies' being stirred up.. and lazy bandwagon jumping media journalists who can't find anything more significant to write about... ..and I say that as a life-long lefty liberal progressive... They detract from far more important issues, and give alt right more 'evidence' to complain and propagandise about leftwing 'snowflakery'.. |
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Subject: RE: Fairytale of New York censored by Beeb! From: GUEST,Allan Conn Date: 18 Dec 18 - 12:19 PM Sorry the Guest post was me. People will read what they want into lyrics that is true. It is just as true for deciding to conclude the song isn't about Irish immigrants as it is deciding it is about Irish immigrants. Yes it doesn't say "I'm Patrick from Dublin in the lyric" and come out and say 100% it is about an Irish immigrant - but there is enough in the lyric to come to the conclusion that it is plus like I said add to that who wrote it and what other songs it is with on the album. In my opinion anyway. Others may disagree which is fair enough! People will read what they want in to a lyric so sorry for me the narrator is not turning his head away and dreaming about his girl because he does not like the song being sung - he's turning his head away and dreaming about his girl because the Irish song reminds him of her! That is certainly how I read the lyric anyway. Incidentally the original first line was according to Cait O' Riordan "It was a wild Christmas Eve on the west coast of Clare - I looked 'cross the ocean and asked what's over there" Likewise the title was borrowed from a book about emigres returning to Ireland from the US. MacGowan himself said the song could also be about any couple anywhere. Which is pretty much a point to. As to the bleeps he said he is fine with people bleeping the word if they feel they must - but the use of the word was not meant for any other reason than being realistic and showing the female character was not a nice wholesome person. |
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Subject: RE: Fairytale of New York censored by Beeb! From: meself Date: 18 Dec 18 - 12:14 PM pfr: I do hope that's not me you're thinking is getting "upset" - personally, I'm not bothered in the least - other than by, as I say, the idea of this song being piped into stores to somehow encourage people to spend more money. I just happen to be interested in words and language - I do find that that in itself seems to upset people who don't share that interest. |
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Subject: RE: Fairytale of New York censored by Beeb! From: GUEST,Terray Date: 18 Dec 18 - 11:37 AM I wasn't trying to correct you, meself, just relating my experience. I should have added that it was mostly the older kids that used that vulgar phrase. |
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Subject: RE: Fairytale of New York censored by Beeb! From: punkfolkrocker Date: 18 Dec 18 - 11:27 AM Also... it's quite a 'cinematic' recording and performance about specific characters.. and the song is being sung in context of the bleak world these abject dysfunctional characters inhabit, from their perspective, using their colloquial language... A litle mini drama in song. Getting so upset about this one particular use of the word is so narrow minded and petty, verging on pathetic..... |
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Subject: RE: Fairytale of New York censored by Beeb! From: r.padgett Date: 18 Dec 18 - 11:12 AM Still played a lot at Christmas and makes a lot of PRS money!! Ray |
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Subject: RE: Fairytale of New York censored by Beeb! From: punkfolkrocker Date: 18 Dec 18 - 11:10 AM Shall I just state the bleedin obvious in this lengthy heated critical and culural analysis.... There aint much of a choice of suitable words that rhyme with "maggot"... |
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Subject: RE: Fairytale of New York censored by Beeb! From: GUEST,Observer Date: 18 Dec 18 - 11:08 AM So let's get this right. Just because the lyrics of a song that appears to be set about Christmas Eve in New York makes two references to Irish songs being sang by: a) The occupants of the drunk tank, with the exception of the main male character of the song who according to the song "I turned my face away and dreamed about you". Either didn't like or know the song? b) A non-existent NYPD Choir There is no mention of any detail regarding the man or the woman the story is about yet for some daft and obscure reason it's: Irish through and through I suppose people will read whatever they want into anything as long as they leave common sense, reason and logic at the door. One question though - There is a band mentioned and also Sinatra so why using the same logic is this not: "Italian through and through"? |
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Subject: RE: Fairytale of New York censored by Beeb! From: meself Date: 18 Dec 18 - 10:43 AM 'As for "faggot", the term was commonly used during my grade school years in Maryland (50's-60's) as a favorite epithet hurled by both girls and boys and usually preceded with "You fucking".' Well, that surprises me, but I suppose I must stand corrected - and I should have known better than to make sweeping generalizations. I would be curious to hear from other Americans on whether they ever knew this term to used commonly by girls/women ... ? |
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Subject: RE: Fairytale of New York censored by Beeb! From: Rob Naylor Date: 18 Dec 18 - 07:25 AM Guest: Nothing Irish about it apart from it was written by an Irishman!! Yes I know he was brought up in London but an Irish immigrant family all the same. Not only "brought up" in England, but born in England, in a suburb of Royal Tunbridge Wells, of all places. Attended the prestigious private Holmewood House Preparatory School, just down the road from my house, from where he went up to Westminster School, another bastion of the English Establishment! If he hadn't been expelled for drug use, he might well have been a Cabinet Minister by now :-) :-) |
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Subject: RE: Fairytale of New York censored by Beeb! From: Steve Shaw Date: 18 Dec 18 - 07:02 AM And I wonder why Christy changed it to "the boys of the New York po-lice choir..." But I only ever want to hear Kirsty and Shane singing this! |
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Subject: RE: Fairytale of New York censored by Beeb! From: GUEST,Terray Date: 18 Dec 18 - 06:51 AM Shane's lyric "The Boys of the NYPD Choir" might be somewhat explained here The Unofficial NYPD Choir at the third or fourth paragraph. It reminds me of a scene from The Wire, with Baltimore cops at a wake for a fallen officer singing "Body of an American" along with the Pogues on the juke box. Note a verse of Galway Bay is incorporated into BoaA and afterwards the cops are sobering up out in the street with Sally McLennane playing in the background. Body of An American As for "faggot", the term was commonly used during my grade school years in Maryland (50's-60's) as a favorite epithet hurled by both girls and boys and usually preceded with "You fucking". |
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Subject: RE: Fairytale of New York censored by Beeb! From: Senoufou Date: 18 Dec 18 - 04:23 AM Exactly Guest. It's Irish through and through. And thank you for that clicky, I really enjoyed 'Rare Old Mountain Dew'. (And Shane has his new teeth in that video!) |
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Subject: RE: Fairytale of New York censored by Beeb! From: GUEST Date: 18 Dec 18 - 02:35 AM "Apart from a reference to the NYPD Choir singing an old standard Irish Music Hall song there is nothing "Irish" about the song at all so God knows where this comes from:" Nothing Irish about it apart from it was written by an Irishman!! Yes I know he was brought up in London but an Irish immigrant family all the same. It is not the only Irish song (or at least song associated with Ireland) referenced in the lyric either. There is also the reference in the first verse about turning his face away and dreaming about her when he heard someone singing "The Rare Old Mountain Dew". https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nk-vig8GxBA It was always pretty clear, at least it was to me, that the song is supposed to be about Irish immigrants in NYC. Then again I didn't first hear it in isolation. On the album it is in situ with other Irish and Irish themed songs and even with the likes of "Thousands Are Sailing" with other songs about Irish emigration to the US in the same time period. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PSYkKpii1kc |
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Subject: RE: Fairytale of New York censored by Beeb! From: GUEST,Observer Date: 17 Dec 18 - 04:11 PM No NYPD Choir? - WOW - There you go, a classic example of why you should never take anything mentioned in a "folk song" as accurately reflecting anything in real life. So we can lump the NYPD Choir in along with those mythical "Glega Nyaff Gaffers" - pure invention. |
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Subject: RE: Fairytale of New York censored by Beeb! From: Steve Shaw Date: 17 Dec 18 - 03:23 PM By the way, there is no NYPD choir. |
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Subject: RE: Fairytale of New York censored by Beeb! From: Steve Shaw Date: 17 Dec 18 - 03:22 PM Well Durex means sellotape in Australia. The song is sublime both in execution and conception. One of Shane's finest (yes I know he had a collaborator). Up there with Pair Of Brown Eyes, Rainy Night in Soho, Sally McLennane, Old Main Drag, Summer In Siam, Fiesta. Almería once again! I know and love Almería (amazing fish market and a lovely little coffee bar just outside the entrance where we pig out on churros for breakfast)! Come on, where's your soul! Oh my God, Rainy Night In Soho... |
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Subject: RE: Fairytale of New York censored by Beeb! From: Senoufou Date: 17 Dec 18 - 02:36 PM It's odd isn't it keberoxu? The words 'drunk tank' and 'slut on junk' repulse me, as I absolutely hate what alcohol and drugs do to people. And the musicians playing on the video are smoking themselves to death; the air is thick with it. Yet it must rank as one of my all-time favourite Crimbo songs. I do think there's a real Irish flavour to the tune and the words though. I think the 'boys of the NYPD' are mostly Irish aren't they? I also love 'Stop The Cavalry', which is about War and its horrors. But such a catchy tune. |
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Subject: RE: Fairytale of New York censored by Beeb! From: GUEST,Observer Date: 17 Dec 18 - 02:09 PM Apart from a reference to the NYPD Choir singing an old standard Irish Music Hall song there is nothing "Irish" about the song at all so God knows where this comes from: "this song is supposedly someone from Ireland who's moved to the US so maybe has picked up the word there." As for the song itself down cliched and depressing. |
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Subject: RE: Fairytale of New York censored by Beeb! From: GUEST,keberoxu Date: 17 Dec 18 - 01:55 PM Senoufou/Eliza, that the lyrics convey misery is something I cannot deny. The impact of the song for me, however, is not depressing. Just as some of the other gritty Shane Mac (Mac or Mc? I can never remember) Gowan songs, however tough-minded the lyrics, end up making me feel better, not worse. |
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Subject: RE: Fairytale of New York censored by Beeb! From: meself Date: 17 Dec 18 - 01:02 PM People seem to be misinterpreting what I'm saying, so I guess I'm not making myself clear: I'm NOT commenting on the meaning of the song, or whether the term "faggot" is being misused or used correctly in the song - all I'm saying is that for a North American, it is unusual in the extreme to hear a woman use that loathsome term in any context, so if you do hear a woman use it, you assume that she has some particular reason for choosing it. Some discussion of the term had developed; that's how I got onto this. I am aware, btw, that the woman in the song is meaning to insult her partner. |
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