Lyr ADD: The Black Fox (Graham Pratt)

Subject: The Black Fox
From: LaMarca
Date: 20 Mar 97 - 12:09 PM

Hi, I'm trying to get one line from a song called "The Black Fox". It's in the DT database, but I'm not sure that transcrption is correct. I'm looking for the first line of the 4th verse; which the DT gives as:

"And there is strength in me/And I will have my chase..."

I learned the song from an album by Chris Foster, and it sounds to me like he's singing:

"And I swear my strength shall lead me..."

Does anyone out there know:

1. Who wrote the song?

2. What's the correct text of this line?

3. Whatever happened to Chris Foster? He had two GREAT albums on Topic in the 70's, but I haven't seen anything by him since. Does he have any other recordings out in England that just never made it to the USA?

Thanks!

Subject: RE: The Black Fox
From: Susan of DT
Date: 20 Mar 97 - 08:29 PM

I credit the Chris Foster record, so I probably took the words from there and probably wrote down what I thought I heard. But the voice in my head, which sounds to me like Martin Carthy, is clearly singing the line I entered. I guess we can both listen to it again.

Subject: RE: The Black Fox
From: Bill D
Date: 21 Mar 97 - 12:26 PM

*listening to it as I type...with my phonically enhanced better half) Chris Foster gives credit to Graham Pratt as author......I always sang "and there is strength within me" but both the wife & I feel like he actually gargled that particular phrase!! It sounds to me like he says 'strength inin me'....R.thought at first he said 'and the very strength did leave me', but changed her mind on susbsequent hearings..I have only sung it in publick 3 or 4 times, and just decided to go with my best guess in the context...Maybe someone should contact Graham Pratt, 'eh?

This is why I always pray that singers of this sort of music will include notes & lyrics in the album....*sigh*

Subject: Lyr Add: BLACK FOX and IN THE END (Graham Pratt)
From: johnhill
Date: 24 May 98 - 03:29 PM

Sorry but I've only just caught this thread.

This song by Graham Pratt is from Graham and Eileen Pratt's 1980 LP "To Friend and Foe" on Dingle's records. Eileen sings this unaccompanied which is unusual as Graham usually provides the instrumental backing and very often harmony (and writes the songs).

On the Album it says this about the song:
"Graham wrote this anti-hunting song, which was inspired by a Yorkshire legend. According to the story the devil takes the form of a black fox, whose audacity at first challenges the huntsmen but finally has them careering back to town in terror. Verses eight and nine were originally printed as part of the legend in a book on British folklore by Katherine Briggs."
......................................

The line in question is correct in the DT although there are other minor errors. The main error is in the 8th verse where the end of the 2nd line should read, "to chase a lonely plain" Also at the end, the last 2 lines of the 8th verse have been repeated which shouldn't happen. There also seems to be an abundance of additions of the word "and".

Here is the transcription from the original by Graham and Eileen. As I've imported it as a text tile the carriage returns will probably get lost as this is a web page so I'll apologise now.

BLACK FOX
(Graham Pratt)

As we were out a hunting
One morning in the spring
Both hounds and horses running well
Made the hills and valleys ring

But to out great misfortune
No fox there could be found
And the huntsmen cursed and swore but still
No fox moved over the ground

Upspoke our master huntsman
At the head of hounds rode he
"Well we have ridden for a full three hours
But no fox have we seen

"And there is strength in me
And I will have my chase
And if only the Devil himself come by
We'd run him such a race"

And then there sprung like lightening
A fox from out his hole
His fur was the colour of a starless night
His eyes like burning coals

They chased him over the valley
They chased him over the field
They chased him down to the riverbank
But never would he yield

He's jumped into the water
And he's swam to the other side
He's laughed so hard that the greenwood shook
Then he's turned to the huntsmen and cried

"Ride on my gallant huntsmen when must I come again?
Oh never shall you want a fox to chase a lonely plain
And when your need is greatest, just call upon My Name
I will come and you shall have the best of sport and game"

All the men looked up in wonder
All the hounds ran back to hide
For the fox had changed to the Devil himself
Where he stood at the other side

And men and hounds and horses
Went flying back to town
And hard on their heels came a little black fox
Laughing as he cried

"Ride on my gallant huntsmen when must I come again?
Oh never shall you want a fox to chase a lonely plain."

.......................................................
Graham has written many beautiful songs but none better than this from their 1985 LP "Hieroglyphics" on Plant Life records. I have to say that Eileen must have one of the best voices around. So don't miss them if you get the chance.

IN THE END
(Graham Pratt)

In the end, when I realise what shadows I've been chasing
In the end, when I realise what chances I've been wasting
In the end, when I quietly take my place
When I see things face to face
For myself
Rivers will flow...flowers will grow...peace will return again...
In the end.

In the end, when I understand the meaning of forgiving
In the end, when I understand that life is just for living
In the end, when each day is all I need....
When the yearning to succeed
Fades away
Rivers will flow...flowers will grow...peace will return again...
In the end.

High on a hill there's a woman with nothing to lose
You give me nothing but freedom and that I refuse
Why do I look for the rain when there's sun on the hill
...why do I look for love......knowing I love you still

In the end, when I realise the trouble you have taken
In the end, when I realise the times I've been mistaken
In the end, when courage fills my heart
When I make that brand new start
Once again
Rivers will flow...flowers will grow...peace will return again...
In the end.
In the end.
........................................

These were the lyrics from the insert in the LP but in the 1st verse 3rd line Eileen actually replaces "quietly" with "finally" and the 2nd line of the last verse is sung as "when I learn how many times I've been mistaken"
........................................

So even the songwriters change their minds sometimes.

Subject: RE: The Black Fox
From: johnhill
Date: 24 May 98 - 03:59 PM

I nearly forgot. Graham and Eileen Pratt have a web page at http://www.stirrins.demon.co.uk/Artistes/Graham_Eileen/Pratt.html

Cheers

John Hill

Subject: RE: The Black Fox
From:
Date: 24 May 98 - 04:48 PM

Great trad singer, isn't he?

Chris Foster informed me in an email, after I tracked him down through the internet, that he plans to release a new CD some time soon. His two Topic LP's, "Layers" and "All Things In Common " have not been released on CD. (He also had songs on two other compilation albums. I don't know, but it may be possible that some of his songs may be on the 20 odd disc Topic retrospective that is being released.

He has a tape out called "Sting In The Tale", which oddly enough does not include the song by that name.:) It contains different versions of some songs that were on his earlier LP's, as well as some that weren't.

The tape is seven pounds sterling, and if you order by post order make sure you make it payable to Chris Foster. It can be had from him at Green Man Productions, 11 Osborne Street, Burton-Upon-Trent, UK, DE15 0JL.

Songs on the tape are as follows: Coast of Peru
Herring's Head
The Black Fox
The Fowler
Unicorns
The Grey Cock
The Neighbour's Cat
Flying High, Flying Free
Rufford Park Poachers
The Derby Ram
False Knight
Wo Sind Die Elefanten?

The version of "False Knight" here is not the "False Knight On The Road" song, featuring the little child and the riddling false knight. This is the one that usually goes under another name, which escapes me at the moment, which features a cat, a parrot, and a lady outwitting a false knight by chucking him into the sea. The version of Derby Ram is probably the best I've ever heard.

You've inspired me to put it on and give it another listen.:)

Subject: RE: The Black Fox
From: Martin Ryan
Date: 24 May 98 - 05:19 PM

Aaaaaaagh!

Tim,
I thought we had finally tracked down "Sting in the Ale" (sic), which we dipped on a long time ago!Any clues?

Regards

Subject: RE: The Black Fox
From:
Date: 24 May 98 - 05:27 PM

Oops, I am replete with errors today! It is 7 pounds fifty pence per tape, not seven pounds. I got two to Canada for 15 pounds so assume that one is 7 pounds fifty pence.

Subject: RE: The Black Fox
From: Susan of DT
Date: 24 May 98 - 08:23 PM

Tim - That would be Child 4: Lady Isobel and the Elf Knight or The Outlandish Knight where he has drownded six kings daughters and she outwits him.

Any US sources for the Foster tape?

Subject: RE: The Black Fox
From: johnhill
Date: 26 May 98 - 05:00 PM

Er... I don't mean to whinge here but the pupose of this thread was to a) find out who wrote "Black Fox" and b) find out if the lyrics in the DT were correct.

It was not to start a fan club for Mr C.J. Foster as good as he may be just because it was his tape used for the transcription. It seem to me that wherever possible a recording by the song-writer should be used rather than someone else.

I would be interested to know if its the DT's intention to correct errors where they are pointed out so that they are not written down for posterity.

Regards

John Hill

Subject: RE: The Black Fox
From: Bill D
Date: 26 May 98 - 06:04 PM

you just did correct the database!...until you posted, I and LaMarca did not know that Graham Pratt had recorded it...our only source for several years was the C. Foster record...(and Susan states that it was HER source when typing it)...this database is a labor-intensive volunteer effort, and now & then errors do creep in, but Susan & Dick do everything they can to correct them when people send in better information....the entire thing is updated twice a year, but a song that is posted here in the forum is available NOW...and as matter of fact, I printed out the correction and hand-delivered it to LaMarca last night at a party...She was most grateful and said she certainly wanted to obtain G. Pratt's recordings..(as well as new stuff by Chris Foster)

As to 'purpose' of threads...*smile*....well, they often have a tendency to drift sideways a bit as different people have different thoughts....and you note that credit was given to Mr. Pratt even as we were appreciating Mr. Foster...

Subject: RE: The Black Fox
From:
Date: 26 May 98 - 06:36 PM

No US source for the Foster tape. Only him. I wasn't aware that he had a middle initial either.

Yes, he does give G. Pratt credit for writing "The Black Fox". I'd be interested to know if Pratt has a version out on CD. It's a good song and I'd like to hear others he has written.

Disagree that the songwriter's version is always superior. It may be here -- I've never heard Pratt's version so I can't comment. However, I've certainly heard people do versions of a song superior to that of the songwriter. For instance, I've always preferred Faron Young's version of Hello Walls to that of Willie Nelson.

I wasn't aware that there was a premium on thread space.

Subject: RE: The Black Fox
From: jehill
Date: 26 May 98 - 06:50 PM

Thanks for your reply Bill. Mind you, had you been at Cleethorpes Folk Festival yesterday (as I was) you could have asked Graham for the words yourself (slight snigger)

Seriously though, I'm glad to hear that the lyrics in the DT are not carved in stone as there are one or two others that I'm not too sure about. But I do appreciate the work being done here and would like to thank all those who are giving up time to maintain it.

Reading through this thread again it would seem that Mr Foster and I both come from Burton on Trent. Coincidence huh?... I'm afraid I've still never heard of him although I only live 5 miles from him. Maybe the world isn't as small as I thought it was :-)

Regards

John Hill

Subject: RE: The Black Fox
From: Bill D
Date: 26 May 98 - 06:56 PM

see....drifting sideways...*wink*...

I love Jean Ritchie's songs...but I almost always prefer versions recorded by someone else...I like Jean best when she sings old 'traditional' stuff.

It's going to be interesting in the future, now that we have documentation on almost all new songs that become popular....it used to be that 90% of 'folky' type songs were 'anon'...no copyrights, no recordings, no 'official' version! Now people are wanting so-and-so's 'version' of a song, right down to the chord progressions -- and debates are rampant about what it is 'proper' to sing, or record, or publish. As folk music becomes more like pop music, with songwriters (and their fans) defending their territory, I wonder if the 'folk process' will ever be the same...

Subject: Lyr/Tune Add: THE BLACK FOX
From: GUEST,MCP, Tune Add, Lyric Add
Date: 20 May 03 - 05:18 PM

Dave Bryant pointed out in the thread Lyr Req: Doll Thy Ale (Graham and Eileen Pratt) (another of Graham's songs) that the tune for The Black Fox in the DT (Black Fox ) did not seem correct ("Unfortunately the tune has been somewhat changed - it's not as modal as the original"). It's certainly not the tune that Graham and Eileen sing on To Friend And Foe, so I give that tune below, along with Graham's harmony. The tune is in some sense more modal - mixolydian/aeolian (half the tune in each).

The lyric transcription above is almost correct for the Graham and Eileen version but there are a few errors so I give the words from there are well.

Mick

---

X: 1
T:The Black Fox
M:4/4
L:1/4
Q:1/4=140
C:Words & Tune: Graham Pratt
S:Graham & Eileen Pratt LP: To Friend And Foe
K:AMix
(c/d/)|e a (g/f/) (e/d/)|d e2
w:As_ we were out_ a_hunt-ing
c|e a (g/f/) (e/d/)|d3
w:One morn-ing in_ the_ Spring
(c/d/)|[K:AAeo] e a g (e/d/)|(c/d/) c A
w:Both_ hounds and hors-es_ run_ning well
A/ B/|c c d (c/B/)|A3||
w:Made the hills and val-leys_ ring
K:AMix
"Graham's Harmony"A|c c B A|G A2
w:Up spoke our mas-ter hunts-man
A/ A/|c c B A|G3
w:At the head of hounds rode he
B|[K:AAeo]A A c/ c/ c/ B/|A A A>
w:Well we have rid-den for a full three hours
G|F F G G|A3||
w:But no fox have we seen

---

THE BLACK FOX
(Graham Pratt)

As we were out a-hunting
One morning in the Spring,
Both hounds and horses running well
Made the hills and valleys ring.

But to our great misfortune
No fox could there be found
And the huntsmen cursed and swore, but still
No fox moved over the ground.

Up spoke our master huntsman,
At the head of hounds rode he,
"Well we have ridden for a full three hours
But no fox have we seen".

"And there is strength still in me
And I will have my chase
And if only the Devil himself come by
We'd run him such a race".

And then there sprang like lightning
A fox from out his hole
His fur was the colour of a starless night
His eyes like burning coal.

They chased him over the valley.
They chased him over the field.
They chased him down to the river bank,
But never would he yield.

He's jumped into the water
And he's swam to the other side.
He's laughed so loud that the greenwood shook
Then he's turned to the huntsmen and cried.

"Ride on!, my gallant huntsmen.
When must I come again?
Oh never shall you want a fox
To chase along the plain."

"Oh, and when your need is greatest
Just call upon my name
And I will come and you shall have
The best of sport and game."

All the men looked up in wonder,
All the hounds ran back to hide,
For the fox had changed to the Devil himself
Where he stood at the other side.

And men and hounds and horses
Went flying back to town
And hard on their heels came the little black fox,
A-laughing as he ran.

"Ride on!, my gallant huntsmen.
When must I come again?
Oh never shall you want a fox
To chase along the plain."

Source: Graham & Eileen Pratt LP To Friend And Foe

Subject: RE: The Black Fox
From: Bill D
Date: 20 May 03 - 05:34 PM

oh..well, thank you MCP/Mick!...appreciate the update and corrections...

(that tune is not 'easy'...I will see how it goes)

Subject: RE: The Black Fox
From: Susan of DT
Date: 20 May 03 - 06:07 PM

OK, I just made the changes to the words on the master for the next edition.

Subject: RE: The Black Fox
From: GUEST,MCP
Date: 20 May 03 - 06:13 PM

Sorry - didn't mean to make work for you! That's really efficient though.

Mick

Subject: RE: The Black Fox
From: GUEST,mulv
Date: 20 May 03 - 07:21 PM

Just seen this thread.OK,the whole world now knows Graham Pratt wrote this.An old git like me was actually at Sidmouth Folk Fest in (about) 1976/77 when they used to run a competetion for 'Best New Song'.The panel of judges consisted of (I think) 4 bods headed by the then Festival Director,one Bill Rutter.

Appearing as a duo were Graham and Eileen Pratt with this song about a black fox.After they had introduced themselves,Rutter (who loved the sound of his own voice,it appeared to me) leaned forward and says 'Sorry,but did you say Pratt ?' 'Fraid so,'says Graham.His attitude and the quality of the song itself along with Eileen's terrific voice captured the whole room.Unfortunately some other geezer with a pretty crap song was judged as the winner of the competetion.That's judges for you !

So we all left the room knowing that the real prats had never sung at all !!

Subject: RE: The Black Fox
From: GUEST,mulv
Date: 20 May 03 - 07:38 PM

Pratt's latest web-site

http://www.folkmusic.net/grahamandeileenpratt/

Subject: RE: The Black Fox
From: Dave Bryant
Date: 28 Jan 04 - 08:12 AM

The tune for "Black Fox" is still not correct on DT. I have sent both a MIDI and SONGWRIGHT file to Dick and also posted them on the Add Tunes permathread.

Subject: RE: The Black Fox
From: GUEST,MMario
Date: 28 Jan 04 - 09:12 AM

Dave - we haven't had a new edition since the last submission...

Subject: RE: The Black Fox
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 28 Jan 04 - 04:52 PM

I lost a lot of posts yesterday - my ISP kept dropping the connection and they vanished into the ether.

I contacted Graham some time ago - he kindly gave me permission to post the words on my Foolestroupe Yahoo list.

I finally tracked him down as the song had become popular with the SCA in Australia and USA. I had seen it accredited as "trad", "anonymous" and even attributed to someone with an SCA (assumed) name as the Author. I had heard the song at an SCA event, and in trying to remember it, had created two versions a shorter condensed version, and an even longer one. Graham seemed not in the least perturbed at my "creative efforts" .. :-)

Robin

Subject: RE: The Black Fox
From: Stewie
Date: 28 Jan 04 - 08:09 PM

To my ears, Foster sang Pratt's line exactly as it was written: 'And there is strength still in me'. His articulation of the line is not the best, but I reckon it is clear enough if you listen carefully.

--Stewie.

Subject: Lyr Req: The Black Fox
From: 42
Date: 14 May 04 - 07:19 AM

Can anyone help out with this. I heard it once on the radio years ago. I had the lyrics but no tune and now I can't find either. It's the one about a shapeshifter.
Thanks to anyone who has a link to a tune.

j

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: The Black Fox
From: A Wandering Minstrel
Date: 14 May 04 - 07:35 AM

Is this the one where the fox is actually the devil?

it has the refrain:

Ride on my noble huntsmen, when must I come again
for never shall you want for a fox to chase all over the plain
but when your need is greatest then call upon my name
then I shall come and you shall have the best of sport and game

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: The Black Fox
From: A Wandering Minstrel
Date: 14 May 04 - 07:39 AM

Damn clicked too fast :P

I was going to say you can find it by using the search at the top of the thread page and entering Black Fox which will bring up lot of references including at least two sets of lyrics

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: The Black Fox
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 14 May 04 - 07:40 AM

I'm pretty sure I submitted the words to a thread a while ago, but haven't got the time to search now.

It was a guy in England, and he has the words on a website - still haven't recovered all my old files yet.

I think it was graham somebody...

Robin

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: The Black Fox
From: GUEST,Barry Cheesman
Date: 14 May 04 - 08:27 AM

Chris Foster recorded it on his first album way back in the days of plastic heaven

Subject: Lyr Add: THE BLACK FOX
From: GUEST,Barry Cheesman
Date: 14 May 04 - 08:33 AM

THE BLACK FOX

Well, as we were out a-hunting one morning in the spring,
Both hounds and horses running well made the hills and the valleys ring;

But to our great misfortune, no fox there could be found;
And our huntsman cursed and swore but still no fox moved over the ground.

Then up spoke our master huntsman. At the head of the hounds rode he.
"Well we have ridden for a full three hours but no fox have we seen.

"And there is strength still in me, and I will have my chase,
And if only the devil himself come by, we'd run him such a race."

Then up there sprung like lightning a fox from out of his hole,
And his fur was the colour of a starless night and his eyes like burning coal.

And they chased him over the valley and they chased him over the field,
And they chased him down to the riverbank but never would he yield.

And he has jumped into the water, and he's swum to the other side,
And he laughed so loud that the green woods shook, then he's turned to the huntsman and he's cried:

"Ride on, my gallant huntsman. When must I come again?
Oh, never shall you want for a fox to chase all over the plain.

"And when your need is greatest, just call upon my name,
And I will come and you shall have the best of sport and game."

And the men looked up in wonder, and the hounds ran back to hide,
For the fox had changed to the devil himself where he stood at the other side.

And the men, the hounds, the horses went flying back to town,
And hard on their heels came a little black fox laughing as he ran.

"O ride on, my gallant huntsman. When must I come again?
O never shall you want for a fox to chase all over the plain."

"And when your need is greatest, just call upon my name,
And I will come and you shall have the best of sport and game."

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: The Black Fox
From: Dave Bryant
Date: 14 May 04 - 09:43 AM

It was written by Graham Pratt and is in the DT Here, but the tune is not as Graham wrote it. There is a previous thread here where this is discussed. I have posted a MIDI-TEXT version of the correct tune and also a SONGWRIGHT version with which you can correct the tune on your home copy of DT here.

If anyone wants me to e-mail them a midi file - pm me or e-mail me on [e-mail] with your e-mail address and I'll send yo one.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: The Black Fox
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 14 May 04 - 06:37 PM

The devil appeared as a black fox skin in "The Ballad of the Black Fox Skin," by Robert Service.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: The Black Fox
From: GUEST
Date: 14 May 04 - 09:41 PM

The Black Fox was the naptha launch my great grandfather took down the Kennebec River one spring evening with cousin Gordon about 1910. When they approached Phippsburg, the launch exploded hurling both men into the icey cold waters of the Kennebec. A woman schoolteacher from Phippsburg saw this catastrophy and plunged into the water to save both of them. After making sure the men were alive and safe, she went back to salvage what she could of the Black Fox. Thanks to her, we have the remnants of the Black Fox today.

Woody

P.S. Someone should write the lyrics to this experience.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: The Black Fox (Graham Pratt)
From: mikesamwild
Date: 18 Dec 12 - 09:01 AM

Just an update on this song. I was chatting with Graham Pratt the other day and saying how much I love singing the song . He built it up from several verses in Briggs' book. He said he was in touch with a Yorkshire traditional song collector who sent him the original verses and was pleaswed to see he had got the story 'about right' I am looking for the original verses and it will be interesting to see whether any tune is given.Please PM me if you have a contact

Meanwhile Graham's song will do for me! What a writer, Graham and Eileen currently lead the excellent Sheffield Folk Chorale who are very busy this season and he is starting another community choir.
(Mike in Sheffield)

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: The Black Fox (Graham Pratt)
From: Musket
Date: 18 Dec 12 - 09:54 AM

Saw them at the cathedral a few years ago now, with the folk choir, complete with a session from Judy Dunlop.

Pleasant night out really.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: The Black Fox (Graham Pratt)
From: Tradsinger
Date: 18 Dec 12 - 11:25 AM

Pitchpole Jack have recorded it. See here.

Tradsinger

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: The Black Fox (Graham Pratt)
From: mikesamwild
Date: 19 Dec 12 - 08:48 AM

Thanks for the link. I got an email from ray Black of Yorkshire Garland who kindly added a link to a digitised book by Ingledew's The Ballads and Songs of Yorkshire (North Allerton 1860), which coincidentally Paul Davenport pointed me to thismorning during anothe rphone conversation. It's there as The Chase of the Black Fox and was sent to Ingledew by Mr Wm.Grainger of Minskip . It looks like a composition with some flowery language but is said to be based on tales 'yet related in the Midland parts of Yorkshre,.

I may try it out with a trad tune but I prefer Graham's composition. Inceidentally Ingeldew wrote Old N--k as it must have been bad form to name the D---l !

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: The Black Fox (Graham Pratt)
From: GUEST,Marnen
Date: 04 Apr 13 - 12:28 AM

Nearly 9 years later, the tune still has not been corrected on the song page.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: The Black Fox (Graham Pratt)
From: Barbara
Date: 04 Apr 13 - 02:01 AM

There is, however a YouTube video here: http://youtu.be/iEE_oCEzH1I
of Graham and Eileen singing it.
Lovely,
Blessings,
Barbara

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: The Black Fox (Graham Pratt)
From: GUEST,JohnB
Date: 04 Apr 13 - 11:11 PM

Graham has uploaded this song here you may need to download a programme to view the score, or open it in Firefox.
The MP3 will play directly.
There is more of his material available on the same site, just do a search there.
JohnB.