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BS: Apostrophe Question???
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Subject: RE: BS: Apostrophe Question??? From: bobad Date: 19 Feb 08 - 03:50 PM BTW Q, Quebec is the English spelling of Québec, it is pronounced Kweebeck. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Apostrophe Question??? From: Uncle_DaveO Date: 19 Feb 08 - 03:53 PM Ooooh, boy! Am I embarrassed! I gave what was intended to the the sage advice of Strunk & White in The Elements of Style, but I messed it up, BUT GOOD! ------------ Correcting it: "1. To form the Even with the ancient names, S&W looked with favor on recasting the sentence to refer to "the teachings of Jesus" and "the laws of Moses". ------------ Mea culpa, mea culpa, mea maxima culpa! Dave Oesterreich |
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Subject: RE: BS: Apostrophe Question??? From: Don Firth Date: 19 Feb 08 - 04:19 PM Lynne Truss's books on punctuation have become best-sellers, and for good reason. In addition to the books being highly instructive, the lady is a riot! Browse. Don Firth P. S. She's British, but she covers American punctuation practices (or lack thereof) as well. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Apostrophe Question??? From: Rowan Date: 19 Feb 08 - 04:49 PM Mea culpa, mea culpa, mea maxima culpa! I'm pretty sure Latin doesn't use apostrophes, Dave. And, while I sure do appreciate all the advice from Funk & whoozit and the CSM, down here we've got our own style manuals to ignore; being provincials we're rather familiar with hegemonies from various versions of imperial English, which sometimes helps us to communicate effectively with the other hemisphere. Cheers, Rowan |
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Subject: RE: BS: Apostrophe Question??? From: GUEST,weerover Date: 19 Feb 08 - 04:57 PM According to several authorities, there is one occasion when an apostrophe is put before a pluralising "s", and that is with the word "do", in the UK usage as a noun meaning a social gathering, as it would otherwise look a bit weird. This works for me (a high school teacher of English), and by extension I suppose it should apply also to "hairdo". wr |
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Subject: RE: BS: Apostrophe Question??? From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 19 Feb 08 - 05:01 PM "When Jones's Ale was new", not "When Jones' Ale was new". And I dislike the possessive form used in "Jesus' ". I prefer either "Jesus's", or better "of Jesus". |
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Subject: RE: BS: Apostrophe Question??? From: Rowan Date: 19 Feb 08 - 05:41 PM Surely "When Jones's Ale was new", not "When Jones' Ale was new" speaks for the song being learned (and transmitted) in the aural tradition rather than the written one. For most of us, I suspect our learning about Jesus' alleged attributes was originally via written texts, which is why that usage is regarded as "correct". You and others are quite empirically correct in saying that our verbal use of language is different from our written use and your post is another specific example. Cheers, Rowan |
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Subject: RE: BS: Apostrophe Question??? From: Bobert Date: 19 Feb 08 - 06:09 PM Holy cow pies, Bobert... You done set off a fire storm here... Listen, folks... Everyone just lay down yer Sharpies, step back, take a deep breath and know that this too shall pass... I mean, it ain't the end of the world, is it??? (Above post apostrophe free...) B;) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Apostrophe Question??? From: Peace Date: 19 Feb 08 - 06:17 PM WRONG, WRONG, WRONG! 'APOSTROPHE A direct and explicit address either to an absent person or to an abstract or non-human entity. Many odes contain such an address. Example: Keats begins "Ode on a Grecian Urn" by apostrophizing the urn – "Thou still unravished bride of quietness. . ." ' HA! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Apostrophe Question??? From: Don Firth Date: 19 Feb 08 - 06:56 PM The problem with "Jesus's" is that you have to be sure you know when to quite. "Jesus's's's's's'. . . ." Don Firth |
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Subject: RE: BS: Apostrophe Question??? From: Peace Date: 19 Feb 08 - 07:56 PM Found by EmmaB. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Apostrophe Question??? From: Uncle_DaveO Date: 19 Feb 08 - 08:01 PM Bobert, you asked, I mean, it ain't the end of the world, is it??? And then commented, (Above post apostrophe free...) And the answer to each of those is, "No, it ain't." Dave Oesterreich |
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Subject: RE: BS: Apostrophe Question??? From: Q (Frank Staplin) Date: 19 Feb 08 - 08:06 PM weerover- Do, meaning a party, show, military engagement, etc. is heard in America as well as in UK. The usage was noted in 1824, J. Briggs in "Remains." (OED) Also spelt (spelled) doe and doo. I guess do's does it for the pl. Indeed troublesome. "Ode on a Grecian Urn." Apostrophizing rhetorically has always boggled my mind. English, she is most peculiar! The poem here: http://www.bartleby.com/101/625.html |
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Subject: RE: BS: Apostrophe Question??? From: Peace Date: 19 Feb 08 - 08:08 PM The wind blew over my house. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Apostrophe Question??? From: Mr Happy Date: 20 Feb 08 - 06:17 AM 'she blew my nose & then she blew my mind?' |
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Subject: RE: BS: Apostrophe Question??? From: autolycus Date: 20 Feb 08 - 11:20 AM btw, I read once that someone was put to death by the state because of an erroneously-placed comma. Don't remember the details. Ivor |
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Subject: RE: BS: Apostrophe Question??? From: Peace Date: 20 Feb 08 - 01:59 PM THE FATAL COMMA Czarina Maria Fyodorovna once saved the life of a man by transposing a single comma in a warrant signed by her husband, Alexander III, which exiled a criminal to imprisonment and death in Siberia. On the bottom of the warrant the czar had written: `Pardon impossible, to be sent to Siberia.' The czarina changed the punctuation so that her husband's instructions read: `Pardon, impossible to be sent to Siberia.' The man was set free. THE BLASPHEMOUS COMMA In several editions of the King James Bible, Luke 23:32 is changed entirely by the absence of a comma. In the passage that describes the other men crucified with Christ, the erroneous editions read: `And there were also two other malefactors.' Instead of counting Christ as a malefactor, the passage should read: `And there were also two other, malefactors.' THE MILLION-DOLLAR COMMA The US government lost at least a million dollars through the slip of a comma. In the tariff act passed on June 6, 1872, a list of duty-free items included: `Fruit plants, tropical and semitropical'. A government clerk accidentally altered the line to read: `Fruit, plants tropical and semitropical'. Importers successfully contended that the passage, as written, exempted all tropical and semitropical plants from duty fees. This cost the US a fortune until May 9, 1874, when the passage was amended to plug the hole. From the www. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Apostrophe Question??? From: Peace Date: 20 Feb 08 - 02:02 PM And having no other place to put this (I heard that!), here y'all go. AGLET - The plain or ornamental covering on the end of a shoelace. ARMSAYE - The armhole in clothing. CHANKING - Spat-out food, such as rinds or pits. COLUMELLA NASI - The bottom part of the nose between the nostrils. DRAGÉES - Small beadlike pieces of candy, usually silver-coloured, used for decorating cookies, cakes and sundaes. FEAT - A dangling curl of hair. FERRULE - The metal band on a pencil that holds the eraser in place. HARP - The small metal hoop that supports a lampshade. HEMIDEMISEMIQUAVER - A 64th note. (A 32nd is a demisemiquaver, and a 16th note is a semiquaver.) JARNS, NITTLES, GRAWLIX, and QUIMP - Various squiggles used to denote cussing in comic books. KEEPER - The loop on a belt that keeps the end in place after it has passed through the buckle. KICK or PUNT - The indentation at the bottom of some wine bottles. It gives added strength to the bottle but lessens its holding capacity. LIRIPIPE - The long tail on a graduate's academic hood. MINIMUS - The little finger or toe. NEF - An ornamental stand in the shape of a ship. OBDORMITION - The numbness caused by pressure on a nerve; when a limb is `asleep'. OCTOTHORPE - The symbol `#' on a telephone handset. Bell Labs' engineer Don Macpherson created the word in the 1960s by combining octo-, as in eight, with the name of one of his favourite athletes, 1912 Olympic decathlon champion Jim Thorpe. OPHRYON - The space between the eyebrows on a line with the top of the eye sockets. PEEN - The end of a hammer head opposite the striking face. PHOSPHENES - The lights you see when you close your eyes hard. Technically the luminous impressions are due to the excitation of the retina caused by pressure on the eyeball. PURLICUE - The space between the thumb and extended forefinger. RASCETA - Creases on the inside of the wrist. ROWEL - The revolving star on the back of a cowboy's spurs. SADDLE - The rounded part on the top of a matchbook. SCROOP - The rustle of silk. SNORKEL BOX - A mailbox with a protruding receiver to allow people to deposit mail without leaving their cars. SPRAINTS - Otter dung. TANG - The projecting prong on a tool or instrument. WAMBLE - Stomach rumbling. ZARF - A holder for a handleless coffee cup. from the www |
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Subject: RE: BS: Apostrophe Question??? From: Amos Date: 20 Feb 08 - 02:11 PM AN awesome feat, Peace. I only knew three of those words by sight. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Apostrophe Question??? From: Peace Date: 20 Feb 08 - 02:20 PM I didn't know any. Always called those things 'things'. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Apostrophe Question??? From: Peace Date: 20 Feb 08 - 02:55 PM SPRAINTS Who knew? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Apostrophe Question??? From: Q (Frank Staplin) Date: 20 Feb 08 - 04:24 PM Don't confuse a thing with a thingamajig. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Apostrophe Question??? From: Peace Date: 20 Feb 08 - 04:29 PM Darn good point, Q. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Apostrophe Question??? From: autolycus Date: 20 Feb 08 - 05:12 PM Or with a whadjamacallit. Ivor |
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Subject: RE: BS: Apostrophe Question??? From: JohnInKansas Date: 22 Feb 08 - 04:31 AM But no one has mentioned the big apostrophe problem: Computers still confused by the apostrophe (and the $@#!% Irish) Simple punctuation mark can cause complex problems By Sean ODriscoll The Associated Press updated 7:07 p.m. CT, Thurs., Feb. 21, 2008 NEW YORK - It can stop you from voting, destroy your dental appointments, make it difficult to rent a car or book a flight, even interfere with your college exams. More than 50 years into the Information Age, computers are still getting confused by the apostrophe. It's a problem familiar to O'Connors, D'Angelos, N'Dours and D'Artagnans across America. When Niall O'Dowd tried to book a flight to Atlanta earlier this year, the computer system refused to recognize his name. The editor of the Irish Voice newspaper could book the flight only by giving up his national identity. "I dropped the apostrophe and ran my name as 'ODowd,'" he said. It's not just the bad luck o' the Irish. French, Italian and African names with apostrophes can befuddle computer systems, too. So can Arab names with hyphens, and Dutch surnames with "van" and a space in them. Michael Rais, director of software development at Permission Data, an online marketing company in New York, said the problem is sloppy programming. "It's standard shortsightedness," he said. "Most programs set a rule for first name and last name. They don't think of foreign-sounding names." The trouble can happen in two ways, according to Rais. One: Online forms typically have a filter that looks for unfamiliar terms that might be put in by mistake or as a joke. A bad computer system will not be able to handle an apostrophe, a hyphen or a gap in a last name and will block it immediately. Two: Even if the computer system is sophisticated enough to welcome an O'Brien or Al-Kurd, the name must be stored in the database, where a hyphen or apostrophe is often mistaken for a piece of computer code, corrupting the system. That's what happened during the Michigan caucus in 2004, when thousands of O'Connors, Al-Husseins, Van Kemps and others who went to the polls didn't have their votes counted. "It was a real slapped-together computer system the party put together and a lot of people were left out who were registered to vote, it was a real pity," said Michigan political consultant Mark Grebner. In this year's primaries, the system worked much better, according to the Michigan Democratic Party. There have been isolated reports of problems elsewhere, but nothing on the scale of Michigan. Still, an apostrophe, hyphen or space can interfere with medical and dental records, gym memberships, online searches or school registration. Dutch-American proofreader Jessica van Campen has seen her name listed as Jessica Vancampen, Jessica Van, Jessicavan Campen, Jessica Campen and Jessican Kampen by uncertain computer systems. When she went to her finals in college, she was listed under Campen and was told Jessica Van Campen had dropped out of the course. "It was another moment of panic," she said. All of this confusion has prompted some people to surrender to technology. Iraqi immigrant Lina Alathari was once known as Lina Al-Athari, but dropped the hyphen in America. "There is no pronunciation difference, so I'm fine with it," she said. Erin Carney D'Angelo, a lawyer in New York, was born apostrophe-free, but took one on when she married her Italian-American husband. But "he told me to drop the apostrophe when filling out forms so to computers I'm just a 'Dangelo,'" she said. The problem is difficult to correct because computer systems have many different ways of recognizing names, Rais said. "It depends on the form filters and it depends on the database program," he said. "Basically, there are a lot of programmers out there who forget that a growing portion of the American public are not called John Smith or Mary White." The Irish apostrophe began with the British, who put it there because they believed the O looked odd without a link to the rest of the name. Many Gaelic speakers in Ireland refuse to carry an apostrophe, considering it a vestige of colonial days. (?) "Maybe that's the solution," said O'Dowd, who just last week was rejected by an online alarm clock service. "Maybe we should just drop the apostrophe altogether, not just as a nationalist statement but because I'd like my alarm call to work in the morning." For my part, I've already thrown off my apostrophe. From now on I am Sean ODriscoll. ©2008 The Associated Press. [Yes, it's too long; but the thread was off the page so it's time to inject some politics.] John |
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Subject: RE: BS: Apostrophe Question??? From: autolycus Date: 22 Feb 08 - 12:41 PM I think, John, you slightly or nearly let the programmers off the hook when you talk about the computing systems getting confused. it's the programmers. Just like I've had an idea for how to teach computing easier. I asked my computer teacher why it wasn't already being done and told that it depends whether the programmer thinks of it, or understands the needs of students, or can be bothered. Ivor |
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Subject: RE: BS: Apostrophe Question??? From: Stilly River Sage Date: 22 Feb 08 - 12:54 PM I knew NINE of the terms on Peace's list. I guess that says I spent too much time reading murder mysteries and historical novels. I'm reminded of some of the minutia you pick up in that context. Some also come from work. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Apostrophe Question??? From: Bill D Date: 22 Feb 08 - 01:03 PM Peace, you left out FORNIX..."a prominent bundle of axons interconnecting ipsilateral (i.e. same side) regions of certain limbic parts of the forebrain." PHILTRUM... (Greek philtron, from philein, "to love; to kiss"), also known as the infranasal depression, is the vertical groove in the upper lip, formed where the nasomedial and maxillary processes meet during embryonic development." The philtrum allows humans to express a much larger range of lip motions than would otherwise be possible, which enhances vocal and non-verbal communication. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Apostrophe Question??? From: Peace Date: 22 Feb 08 - 01:06 PM Good lord, Bill. I didn't know people could even SAY things like that in public . . . . |
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Subject: RE: BS: Apostrophe Question??? From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 22 Feb 08 - 01:22 PM Maybe it really should be O'Bama... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Apostrophe Question??? From: Bill D Date: 22 Feb 08 - 01:25 PM You mean, of the Black Irish? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Apostrophe Question??? From: bobad Date: 22 Feb 08 - 01:29 PM Your philtrum and ophryon make my fornix wamble, baby. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Apostrophe Question??? From: GUEST,weerover Date: 22 Feb 08 - 03:00 PM To go along with SPRAINTS above: SCUMBER - animal dung, especially dog or fox SHARN - cow dung wr |
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Subject: RE: BS: Apostrophe Question??? From: Q (Frank Staplin) Date: 22 Feb 08 - 03:04 PM I knew a Hispanic family with the surname de la O- they were always bothered with people demanding to know O-what? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Apostrophe Question??? From: Amos Date: 22 Feb 08 - 03:12 PM That gives a whole new meaning to the heroine's name "Rosasharn" in "Grapes of Wrath", eh? A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Apostrophe Question??? From: GUEST,leeneia Date: 22 Feb 08 - 05:46 PM One comment on your list, Peace: I sew clothes and in the books the hole which accepts a sleeve is not an ARMSAYE, it's an armscye. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Apostrophe Question??? From: GUEST,TIA Date: 22 Feb 08 - 05:46 PM If you want a real grammar headache, try punctuating this sentence properly. If you do, it is, in fact, grammatically correct. I will spot you one period, and one apostrophe. John where Jim had had had had had had had had had had had the teacher's approval. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Apostrophe Question??? From: Peace Date: 22 Feb 08 - 05:52 PM OK. However, that wasn't my list, fyi. It is from the www somewhere. Not that I wouldn't have made that mistake all by myself. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Apostrophe Question??? From: Peace Date: 22 Feb 08 - 05:53 PM I know that one, TIA. Good luck to all. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Apostrophe Question??? From: autolycus Date: 22 Feb 08 - 06:04 PM Me.too - ditto. btw, you can lengthen the "had"s by one if it's not Jim but Hadley - Had, for short. Ivor |
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Subject: RE: BS: Apostrophe Question??? From: Bill D Date: 22 Feb 08 - 06:31 PM It's a stupid sentence, no matter what the technical answer. Try to imagine anyone actually saying it. (Who, me? Testy today? Nawwwww..) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Apostrophe Question??? From: Rowan Date: 22 Feb 08 - 08:50 PM "It's standard shortsightedness," he said. "Most programs set a rule for first name and last name. They don't think of foreign-sounding names." And the shortsightedness predated computers by a long chalk. Among my ancestors there's a big mob, from France, called de Rohan but, by the time (in the 19th century) the emigrator to Australia had had his details recorded in the system, he was always listed as "Drohan". Cheers, Rowan |
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Subject: RE: BS: Apostrophe Question??? From: JohnInKansas Date: 23 Feb 08 - 12:07 AM I think, John, you ... RUDE! INSULTING! CRASS! CHILDISH! [The thread's been a little dull, lets have a bit of an uproar.] I believe, if you read the article, you would have noted that I DID NOT WRITE IT. I directed your attention to someone else's opinion, without indicating in any way that I shared that particular point of view. [must be one of those flamers ....] ;>} John |
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Subject: RE: BS: Apostrophe Question??? From: autolycus Date: 23 Feb 08 - 08:00 AM My humble apologies, John. very careless of me. haven't been feeling myself lately. Or anyone else. Might help explain it. :-) Ivor |
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Subject: RE: BS: Apostrophe Question??? From: JohnInKansas Date: 23 Feb 08 - 09:54 AM I'll accept your second excuse as an ameliorating circumstance meriting tolerance of a small lapse. Not a thing to worry about. But is your real name "Naught"-O-Lycus? - as in "0'O'Lycus"? Or maybe it was "Aught-O-Lycus" which would be ?'O'Lycus? Would a double apostrophe be a prepostrophus? John |
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Subject: RE: BS: Apostrophe Question??? From: autolycus Date: 23 Feb 08 - 10:21 AM Ta. My real name aut to be o lycus, cept I have no known Irish in me. Tho' I like the very occasional Bailey's. My real name is Ivor (and not even Iv o r.) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Apostrophe Question??? From: Megan L Date: 23 Feb 08 - 10:30 AM Drat I thought the real name was Aught to lie and cuss |
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Subject: RE: BS: Apostrophe Question??? From: Bill D Date: 23 Feb 08 - 11:01 AM ..and is there a manual lycus? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Apostrophe Question??? From: dick greenhaus Date: 23 Feb 08 - 09:00 PM After wading through this thread, I'm still not sure how many bs in Bobert, but I'm positive that there's a load of BS amongst the posters. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Apostrophe Question??? From: autolycus Date: 24 Feb 08 - 02:45 AM Interesting,dick. Fritz Perls who restarted the Gestalt therapy I do, claimed that 90% of what anybody says is BS. Which is why he paid loads more attention, (as I do) to the other things going on apart from what the person says. Ivor (who clearly aut to be called something else.) |
