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Capoing: What Key?

Mr Happy 04 Mar 08 - 06:25 AM
Bernard Quenby 04 Mar 08 - 06:33 AM
GUEST,PMB 04 Mar 08 - 06:42 AM
Nick 04 Mar 08 - 06:48 AM
Nick 04 Mar 08 - 06:59 AM
Richard Bridge 04 Mar 08 - 07:05 AM
Mr Happy 04 Mar 08 - 07:08 AM
Nick 04 Mar 08 - 07:16 AM
Mr Happy 04 Mar 08 - 07:35 AM
Leadfingers 04 Mar 08 - 07:38 AM
Nick 04 Mar 08 - 07:44 AM
Tattie Bogle 04 Mar 08 - 11:09 AM
GUEST 04 Mar 08 - 11:13 AM
Mr Happy 04 Mar 08 - 11:17 AM
GUEST,Chicken Charlie 04 Mar 08 - 11:23 AM
open mike 04 Mar 08 - 11:48 AM
Mr Happy 04 Mar 08 - 11:54 AM
Grab 04 Mar 08 - 11:58 AM
Mr Happy 04 Mar 08 - 12:02 PM
Amos 04 Mar 08 - 12:06 PM
McGrath of Harlow 04 Mar 08 - 12:08 PM
GUEST,Chicken Charlie 04 Mar 08 - 02:57 PM
Nick 04 Mar 08 - 03:23 PM
M.Ted 04 Mar 08 - 06:20 PM
Tyke 05 Mar 08 - 06:31 PM
Tattie Bogle 05 Mar 08 - 07:38 PM
Mr Happy 06 Mar 08 - 06:21 AM
GUEST,Tom Bliss 06 Mar 08 - 07:08 AM
Mr Happy 06 Mar 08 - 07:14 AM
GUEST, Tom Bliss 06 Mar 08 - 08:02 AM
Mr Happy 06 Mar 08 - 08:06 AM
Lowden Jameswright 06 Mar 08 - 11:39 AM
Linda Goodman Zebooker 07 Mar 08 - 05:58 AM
Singing Referee 07 Mar 08 - 06:19 AM
Brian Hoskin 07 Mar 08 - 06:28 AM
McGrath of Harlow 07 Mar 08 - 07:43 AM
Nick 07 Mar 08 - 08:08 AM
Singing Referee 07 Mar 08 - 08:18 AM
Mr Happy 07 Mar 08 - 09:54 AM
Mr Happy 07 Mar 08 - 10:10 AM
GUEST,Chicken Charlie 07 Mar 08 - 10:36 AM
Mr Happy 07 Mar 08 - 10:39 AM
GUEST,Tom Bliss 07 Mar 08 - 10:54 AM
Tattie Bogle 07 Mar 08 - 10:56 AM
s&r 07 Mar 08 - 11:12 AM
Mr Happy 07 Mar 08 - 11:18 AM
GUEST 07 Mar 08 - 12:56 PM
Mr Happy 07 Mar 08 - 01:04 PM
GUEST,Chicken Charlie 07 Mar 08 - 01:18 PM
Mr Happy 07 Mar 08 - 01:24 PM
PoppaGator 07 Mar 08 - 01:42 PM
McGrath of Harlow 07 Mar 08 - 01:43 PM
s&r 07 Mar 08 - 05:28 PM
GUEST,Chicken Charlie 07 Mar 08 - 06:06 PM
GUEST,Chicken Charlie 07 Mar 08 - 06:11 PM
Peace 07 Mar 08 - 06:31 PM
michaelr 07 Mar 08 - 07:10 PM
Stringsinger 08 Mar 08 - 04:03 PM
Tattie Bogle 08 Mar 08 - 05:26 PM
Mr Happy 09 Mar 08 - 06:31 AM
s&r 09 Mar 08 - 12:07 PM
s&r 09 Mar 08 - 12:10 PM
Mr Happy 11 Mar 08 - 08:36 AM
GUEST,Chicken Charlie 11 Mar 08 - 10:58 AM
Mr Happy 11 Mar 08 - 11:19 AM
Mr Happy 11 Mar 08 - 11:25 AM
GUEST,Chicken Charlie 11 Mar 08 - 12:47 PM
PoppaGator 11 Mar 08 - 12:51 PM
Mr Happy 11 Mar 08 - 12:54 PM
GUEST,Chicken Charlie 11 Mar 08 - 02:20 PM
GUEST,stu sans cookie 11 Mar 08 - 06:55 PM
Mr Happy 12 Mar 08 - 05:16 AM
GUEST,Tom Bliss 12 Mar 08 - 05:25 AM
Mr Happy 12 Mar 08 - 05:42 AM
Mr Happy 12 Mar 08 - 06:58 AM
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Subject: Capoing: What Key?
From: Mr Happy
Date: 04 Mar 08 - 06:25 AM

When playing guitar, its either to accompany myself singing, or to complement others singing & playing.

I generally use a capo if I쳌fm singing, so as to have a pitch suitable for my voice on a particular song.

I also find it useful when playing with others to capo in a different place than them so as to create more harmonies/counter melodies.

I know the most of the keys I쳌fm playing in when capoed, but not all.

The ones I know & use frequently are:

2nd fret
G shapes = A
D shapes = E
C shapes = D

3rd fret
D shapes = F

5th fret
G shapes = C
D shapes = G
C shapes = F
A shapes = D

7th fret
G shapes = D
C shapes = G
D shapes = A
A shapes = C




Is there a chart or guide available to show all the capo positions plus the chord shapes which result in specific keys?

If not, can anyone tell me what the keys for all the possible capo position & shapes used are?


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Subject: RE: Capoing: What Key?
From: Bernard Quenby
Date: 04 Mar 08 - 06:33 AM

All you need to know is:

C C# D Eb E F F# G Ab A Bb B and back to the beginning:

Count how many frets up the neck you're capoed at. Count up the same number on the list above, e.g. if you're capoed at the fourth fret and playing in E shapes, start from E on the list and count up four, and you're playing in the true key of Ab. If you're capoed at the fifth aand playing in D shapes you're in G

Hope this helps


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Subject: RE: Capoing: What Key?
From: GUEST,PMB
Date: 04 Mar 08 - 06:42 AM

Isn't ka-poing the noise of a string snapping?


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Subject: RE: Capoing: What Key?
From: Nick
Date: 04 Mar 08 - 06:48 AM

In practical terms there are only five barre-able shapes (if the word exists) - C A G E D

This little chart will take you up to the 12 fret and you can start again then. Chord shape across top, frets down side -

        C        A        G        E        D

1        C#        A#        G#        F        D#
2        D        B        A        F#        E
3        D#        C        A#        G        F
4        E        C#        B        G#        F#
5        F        D        C        A        G
6        F#        D#        C#        A#        G#
7        G        E        D        B        A
8        G#        F        D#        C        A#
9        A        F#        E        C#        B
10        A#        G        F        D        C
11        B        G#        F#        D#        C#
12        C        A        G        E        D


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Subject: RE: Capoing: What Key?
From: Nick
Date: 04 Mar 08 - 06:59 AM

Argh - hopefully this will format right this time

MAJOR CHORDS -
Chord along top - Frets down side
   C   A   G   E   D

1 C# A# G# F   D#
2 D   B   A   F# E
3 D# C   A# G   F
4 E   C# B   G# F#
5 F   D   C   A   G
6 F# D# C# A# G#
7 G   E   D   B   A
8 G# F   D# C   A#
9 A   F# E   C# B
10 A# G   F   D   C
11 B   G# F# D# C#
12 C   A   G   E   D
MINOR CHORDS -
Only Am Dm Em shapes
   A   E   D

1 A# F   D#
2 B   F# E
3 C   G   F
4 C# G# F#
5 D   A   G
6 D# A# G#
7 E   B   A
8 F   C   A#
9 F# C# B
10 G   D   C
11 G# D# C#
12 A   E   D


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Subject: RE: Capoing: What Key?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 04 Mar 08 - 07:05 AM

Counting is best.


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Subject: RE: Capoing: What Key?
From: Mr Happy
Date: 04 Mar 08 - 07:08 AM

Nick,

Your little table's exactly what I was after, thanks very much!

Also the minors as a bonus - Cheers!!


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Subject: RE: Capoing: What Key?
From: Nick
Date: 04 Mar 08 - 07:16 AM

You're welcome

I was amused by the thought of "I also find it useful when playing with others to capo in a different place than them so as to create more harmonies/counter melodies." - if they were, say, playing in D and you capoed at the 6th fret and played an A shaped chord, is that useful? I have a spare mandolin that I use like a frying pan to hit people round the head with when they do that. (I'm only kidding)


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Subject: RE: Capoing: What Key?
From: Mr Happy
Date: 04 Mar 08 - 07:35 AM

What I meant was, for example if my Fiends are playing in D capoed on 2 & using C shapes - then I capo on 7 & play G shapes - lifts the pitch of my contribution above theirs & on some numbers can sound almost mandolinish!


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Subject: RE: Capoing: What Key?
From: Leadfingers
Date: 04 Mar 08 - 07:38 AM

Two guitarists playing the same chords all the time CAN be a little boring , but use of the capo can change the whole sound to a surprising degree , even if you only have one playing in open D and the other playing C shapes capo 2


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Subject: RE: Capoing: What Key?
From: Nick
Date: 04 Mar 08 - 07:44 AM

I WAS kidding - I do exactly the same myself when we play together each week and, either with capo or not, try to play the same chords as anyone else playing guitar but somewhere else on the fretboard


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Subject: RE: Capoing: What Key?
From: Tattie Bogle
Date: 04 Mar 08 - 11:09 AM

Thanks too: have printed off a couple of copies for friends who find this difficult. I just do the count-up method myself.

The thing that causes even more grief is the difference between Key and Start note for a song: having done a lot of music theory myself, it comes as second nature to me, but then if it's capo'ed as well, some folk talk about the real key and others in the chord shape key................ Best to try to keep quiet and let them get on with it, as they won't believe me when I tell them the start note is definitely F#: half an hour later..............

Oh and not to mention if you have any transposing instruments in your midst! (A horrible clash when the reed band met the bagpipes once I recall, as one lot were going by the notation and the other the "ear" key)


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Subject: RE: Capoing: What Key?
From: GUEST
Date: 04 Mar 08 - 11:13 AM

Nick,

In practical terms there are only five barre-able shapes (if the word exists) - C A G E D

In practical terms, surely a barred D is a barred C with less strings fingered???


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Subject: RE: Capoing: What Key?
From: Mr Happy
Date: 04 Mar 08 - 11:17 AM

Some've the folks I play music with often choose Bb as the key.

How is it achieved with capo?


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Subject: RE: Capoing: What Key?
From: GUEST,Chicken Charlie
Date: 04 Mar 08 - 11:23 AM

I second Richard Bridge on this one. You should not be memorizing a chart, you should be learning to rely on counting. Now that you have majors and minors, do you want another chart for sixths, another for sevenths, another for minor sevenths, another for ninths, another for ....? They all work the same way. My advice is to make friends with a piano and pick out a C-major scale on it--just that. Period. Notice where the black keys are and are not, and by next week you will be legendary. (Unless you are already, in which case you'll be super-legendary.)

But you are on to a good thing with Nick, about two people not playing in the same position. My very first musical experience was jamming regularly with two other guys. I was the newbie, so I got to play first position rhythm. (This was all on four-string banjos, by the way, but it matters not.) The second guy played the melody, usually somewhere around the fifth fret. The third played high harmonies, way up the neck. In our better moments, we were almost .... orchestral. Well, almost.

Chicken Charlie


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Subject: RE: Capoing: What Key?
From: open mike
Date: 04 Mar 08 - 11:48 AM

easy--Bb is played with the capo on the first fret
and then you play A ..and D and E (which become Bb, Eb, F)
do you know the 1,4,5, (circle of fifths...) where you
usually play those chords...in the key of A, the scale
is A,B,C,D,E,F,G and you play the chords corresponding
to the 1st, 4th and 5th note of that scale...A, D, and E.
google circle of fifths for more music theory info...
a good chart can be found here..it also included key signature
(the number 0f sharps or flats in that key.)
numbera.com/musictheory/theory/images/fifths2.gif
this must have been discussed in a previous thread


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Subject: RE: Capoing: What Key?
From: Mr Happy
Date: 04 Mar 08 - 11:54 AM

So is A# the same as Bb?


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Subject: RE: Capoing: What Key?
From: Grab
Date: 04 Mar 08 - 11:58 AM

Yes.

At least it is today - years back before "well-tempered" intonation became standard, it wouldn't have been. But for today's purposes, it is.

Graham.


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Subject: RE: Capoing: What Key?
From: Mr Happy
Date: 04 Mar 08 - 12:02 PM

Thanks Graham


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Subject: RE: Capoing: What Key?
From: Amos
Date: 04 Mar 08 - 12:06 PM

You gotta get the fundamentals folks, to be masters of this business.

Western major scales start on a "tonic" note, the name of the key.

In the key of C, the notes are C-D-E-F-G-A-B-C. The intervals between the notes of the scale are used in every key, but the names of the notes are defined by the white keys on the piano in the key of C.

The intervals are done in half-note steps, with one fret equalling one half-not step.

From C to D is a whole note interval, so is from D to E. But from E to F is only one half step.

The intervals go 2-2-1-2-2-2-1 (half-steps).

If you are playing in the key of F, the intervals are still the same, but the names of the notes are not whole letters any more, there are some sharps and flats in there.

F-2-G-2-A-1-Bb-2-Cb-2-Db-2-Eb-1-F, also known as "three flats".

In the key of G the intervals are the same but the names shift accordingly:

G-2-A-2-B-1-C-2-D-2-E-2-F#-1-G

and so on. You can work this out on a keyboard very easily. In the key of C, it's all white notes. The ebony keys are the sharps and flats. But whatever tonic note you start on, the major scale will have the same intervals: 2-2-1-2-2-2-1 halfnotes or frets.

A


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Subject: RE: Capoing: What Key?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 04 Mar 08 - 12:08 PM

Counting is easiest, and very easy. You just need to learn that there are two semitones between all the natural keys, except B to C and E to F, which are just one semitone apart, and you're.

Just look at the key shape you are fingering if it was down at the far end and count up the neck to where you are playing it and that'll tell you what you are actually playing.

Or do the same to decide where to put the capo so tha the chord shape yo want to play will sound right in some other key.

Same applies when you want to play barre chords up the neck, ot chords with some open strings.


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Subject: RE: Capoing: What Key?
From: GUEST,Chicken Charlie
Date: 04 Mar 08 - 02:57 PM

Good luck, Amos. I'm with you, but every time I try that approach, all I get is a chorus of, "Oh, my head hurts ....." Must be my tone.
(Oh, surely not.)

Chicken Charlie


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Subject: RE: Capoing: What Key?
From: Nick
Date: 04 Mar 08 - 03:23 PM

Guest - You're probably right.

The five shapes of CAGED are something that Eric Roche and David Mead go on about quite a lot and they know/knew considerably more than me.

If you play a C - x32010 and a D as xxO232 then they are structured differently; the C is Root,3rd,5th,Root,3rd and the D is Root,5th,Root,3rd so there is some difference. Played this way one doubles the third one doesn't - one has 5 notes the other 4.

If you barre the C and D shaped chords up the fretboard (which I do) there are things that much harder to play with the C chord shape (eg adding the 4th on the top string) than with the D shape.

If you play your D as x54232 or x50232 then yes it is very similar. Don't ask me ask a guitar teacher :)


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Subject: RE: Capoing: What Key?
From: M.Ted
Date: 04 Mar 08 - 06:20 PM

I you simply learn the names of the notes on your guitar, (even just the bass strings)then, capo or not, you will always know what chord you are playing, because the note names don't change--


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Subject: RE: Capoing: What Key?
From: Tyke
Date: 05 Mar 08 - 06:31 PM

Just a little point but and important one if you are in a session or singeround with musicians sat about waiting and wanting to join in with you. If someone has a Melodeon it's likely to be in the key of G and D but ask them as Guitarist you should be able to Capo to Key so that they can join in with you.

Tell people the Key that you are going to play the song or tune in don't hide your fingerboard under the table when you play then others can see your chord changes.
Most important thing is that you enjoy yourself and have a good time and that will best be achieved if everyone else enjoys the session.


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Subject: RE: Capoing: What Key?
From: Tattie Bogle
Date: 05 Mar 08 - 07:38 PM

Open Mike: sound and correct advice, but the vast majority of guitarists I know are happier playing in G shapes, so B flat (much preferred key for singers!) is 3 frets up in G (or shorthand G3)


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Subject: RE: Capoing: What Key?
From: Mr Happy
Date: 06 Mar 08 - 06:21 AM

Last night at the sesh, I tried some've the 9th fret shapes - sounded awful!

Guess 'cos there's not enough twanginess left so far up the neck!


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Subject: RE: Capoing: What Key?
From: GUEST,Tom Bliss
Date: 06 Mar 08 - 07:08 AM

You could always just try listening.

Play the chord shape you want to use on your guitar.

Plucking only the strings that have fingers down, slide it up the frets until it sounds right with the notes the other instruments are playing.

Pop the capo on where the nut should now be and bingo.

No counting, no names, no pack drill.


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Subject: RE: Capoing: What Key?
From: Mr Happy
Date: 06 Mar 08 - 07:14 AM

The song'd prob be over if I tried that method, using all the shapes!


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Subject: RE: Capoing: What Key?
From: GUEST, Tom Bliss
Date: 06 Mar 08 - 08:02 AM

Nah - it only takes about two seconds. Choose your shape - one you think will give you inversions you like - pluck, and slide. Only one position will be right, you'll find it straight away, and all the other chords will be right too. Try it.


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Subject: RE: Capoing: What Key?
From: Mr Happy
Date: 06 Mar 08 - 08:06 AM

Mr Happy & Fiends will be appearing at West Cheshire Sailing Club Folk Ahoy night on Friday, so I'll give it a go then, cheers


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Subject: RE: Capoing: What Key?
From: Lowden Jameswright
Date: 06 Mar 08 - 11:39 AM

9th fret is stretching it a bit, but 7th is great - for example D chords (in dropped D) for songs in A. Be careful with Shubb Capo though as it can spring off; best use spring or screw clamp-type capo.


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Subject: RE: Capoing: What Key?
From: Linda Goodman Zebooker
Date: 07 Mar 08 - 05:58 AM

I like Tom Bliss' method of chosing a shape and sliding up! I go to the regular Archie Edwards Blues jam in the DC area, and being a beginner, only know first position chords. Most players go all over the neck and do chords I don't recognize.

Unless somebody announces the key, or there's another beginner opposide me, also playing in first position, I can't figure out the key, most times. Even though I have a small, nylon string guitar,I don't want to experiment too much, for fear of disrupting the sound.

But songs can last 15 - 20 minutes, so I think if I do his shape-and-slide method, I could find the key pretty quickly.

--Linda


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Subject: RE: Capoing: What Key?
From: Singing Referee
Date: 07 Mar 08 - 06:19 AM

Amos,

The key of F only has one incidental (black note) Bb. Cb is B.

So

F-2-G-2-A-1-Bb-2-Cb-2-Db-2-Eb-1-F, also known as "three flats"

Should be

F-2-G-2-A-1-Bb-2-C-2-D-2-E-1-F, also known as "one flat"


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Subject: RE: Capoing: What Key?
From: Brian Hoskin
Date: 07 Mar 08 - 06:28 AM

Looking for something different entirely I discovered that Shubb make a reference table for those wishing to part with £4.99 for one!

shubb capo placement guide for sale at Eagle Music


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Subject: RE: Capoing: What Key?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 07 Mar 08 - 07:43 AM

Capo up to 9th fret? All depends on your guitar. It can sound just fine.

I've just tried it to confirm that, didn't even need retuning.

Of course with some strings and some guitars you would need to tweak the tuning a bit, but that's no problem with a clip on electronic tuner, even in a noisy session.


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Subject: RE: Capoing: What Key?
From: Nick
Date: 07 Mar 08 - 08:08 AM

ADVERTISEMENT!! LIMITED TIME FREE OFFER!! ADVERTISEMENT!!

Save your money or send your £4.99 to a charity of your choice. Here is the just invented this morning 'Capo Circle' which you can print onto recycled biodegradable paper and keep with you for whenever you want to use it.

Stunningly simple in concept it's freely available for Mudcat users by downloading it here

A thing of beauty, exquisite charm and elegant execution soon available in a range of colours be the first one in your local singaround or session to sport this latest fashion statement before every one gets one.

Copyrighted. Hands off.

:)


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Subject: RE: Capoing: What Key?
From: Singing Referee
Date: 07 Mar 08 - 08:18 AM

Brilliant!


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Subject: RE: Capoing: What Key?
From: Mr Happy
Date: 07 Mar 08 - 09:54 AM

So, given the evidence above, chords/keys are like this:

Ab,A,A#,Bb,B,B#,Cb,C,C#,Db,D,D#,Eb,E,E#,Fb,F,F#,Gb,G,G# ??


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Subject: RE: Capoing: What Key?
From: Mr Happy
Date: 07 Mar 08 - 10:10 AM

Nick,

Echo plaudit above!

Just printed your Capo Circle & will try out with it at New Brighton,[Wirral/ Merseyside] tonight - Thanks a infinitillion!!


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Subject: RE: Capoing: What Key?
From: GUEST,Chicken Charlie
Date: 07 Mar 08 - 10:36 AM

Dear, Dear Mr. Happy--

Sorry, but you aren't listening. Your last post lists 21 "keys."
There aren't 21 keys, there are 12! My advice about staring at a piano keyboard until the light comes on still holds. Starting at C (which because of theoretical matters you refuse to address is the logical place to start), the notes are:

C
C# which is also Db depending on which key you are in.
D
D# or Eb (one note, two names, as above)
E
F (notice I skipped E#/Fb which do/does not exist, despite your effort to create it two posts back) (PIANO KEYBOARD!!!!)
F#/Gb
G
G#/Ab
A
A#/Bb
B
and we're back to C, an octave above where we started, without B#/Cb, which likewise does not exist in this universe.

Now, here's what you do: Go back and read the sage Bernard's post, which is the second on this thread, the very first answer you got. That was the secret of existence, Grasshopper. Then read Amos' post, where he said the same thing. Then read mine. Then read Bernard's. Then read Amos's. Then read mine. Then read Bernard's. Then read Amos's. Then read mine..... (Re-do from start).

BTW, I've been doing this music thing since about 1954; I think you can trust me. As a former teacher, I hate to be brutal, but IMO you are fighting the problem. Don't memorize results: understand the principle and the results will come like ripe fruit falling off a tree. But, no, after FORTY POSTS (I counted) you're still talking like there's a B-sharp and a C-flat. I FIND THAT PERSONALLY VERY IRRITATING AND NON-COOPERATIVE, AND IF I HAVE ANYTHING TO SAY ABOUT IT, YOU WILL GET NO DESSERT TONIGHT !!!!! :)

(Goes off muttering to self under breath.......)

Chicken "Twelve Keys were Good Enough for Mozart" Charlie


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Subject: RE: Capoing: What Key?
From: Mr Happy
Date: 07 Mar 08 - 10:39 AM

Oh yes I've been listening! But you're counting the #s & bs twice!

Have another look


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Subject: RE: Capoing: What Key?
From: GUEST,Tom Bliss
Date: 07 Mar 08 - 10:54 AM

Of course (as we all probably know) A# and Bb, for example, are in fact two different notes, each with a slightly different pitch. They don't really meet in the middle, they were just organised into a compromise note when key and fretboards were invented. But don't let that trouble you. I don't even know the names of half the keys I play in. In DADGAD, for example I've no idea what chord I'm playing in 1st position, in either shape or pitch - put on a capo and I'd never be able to tell you. It's just sounds right for that point in the song.

Ears are always best for music. After all, that's all the audience's is allowed to use.

Tom


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Subject: RE: Capoing: What Key?
From: Tattie Bogle
Date: 07 Mar 08 - 10:56 AM

And the capo circle is winging its way around Scotland now, thanks Nick!


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Subject: RE: Capoing: What Key?
From: s&r
Date: 07 Mar 08 - 11:12 AM

Cb and E# aren't uncommon


Stu


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Subject: RE: Capoing: What Key?
From: Mr Happy
Date: 07 Mar 08 - 11:18 AM

E#/Fb don't exist??


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Subject: RE: Capoing: What Key?
From: GUEST
Date: 07 Mar 08 - 12:56 PM

For the last time, before I go get drunk--and it's only 9:44 AM here, but I may have to....

Please get some keyboard musician friend of yours to show you a C scale on a piano or electric keyboard or whatever. Ask him to play you a C-scale slowly, naming the notes as he goes. Look where the black keys are and where they are not. They are the sharps and flats. There is no black key between E and F; ergo there is no E sharp or F flat. Seven white keys and five black ones in an octave make 12 not 21. I keep harping on this piano thing because it's more visual on the keyboard.

Chicken Charlie
Slowly, I crept .....

PS. To all you folks who know the whole history of the well-tempered scale, you're right in theory, but in practice I hit the same key or finger at the same fret for A# and Bb, so please in this instance it's clear that we've got to move the cookies to a lower shelf.


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Subject: RE: Capoing: What Key?
From: Mr Happy
Date: 07 Mar 08 - 01:04 PM

I'm gettin' ratarsed meself just now [6pm-UK time!] -as 'er indoors is away for weakend - yippee!

Or should I say shitfaced?



Don't tink its shitarsed = hmnnn- mebbe later


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Subject: RE: Capoing: What Key?
From: GUEST,Chicken Charlie
Date: 07 Mar 08 - 01:18 PM

You miss my point, as usual. I see no alternative but to withdraw my aura.

You ARE the weakest link!

Good-bye


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Subject: RE: Capoing: What Key?
From: Mr Happy
Date: 07 Mar 08 - 01:24 PM

Hey Charlie - chill out, mate!


As regards keyboards, no-one bar me [should that be barmy?] plays 'em in sesshes.

I kno wot u mean about # & bs - just kiddin' - happy days!


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Subject: RE: Capoing: What Key?
From: PoppaGator
Date: 07 Mar 08 - 01:42 PM

Neither keyboard intruments not fretted string instruments recognize more than 12 notes/keys per octave.

That is, in the context of any instrument upon which one might affix a capo, there is no reason to even introduce the confusion-inducing concept of the very slight (and essentially theoretical) difference between, say, C# and Db. On a "capo-able" instrument like the guitar, such differences do not exist in any practical sense.

When attempting to instruct someone who has not yet grasped the relatively simple concept of naming the key he/she is playing in when employing a given set of chord shapes along with a capo placed at a given position, muddying the waters with advanced music theory about tempered scales, etc., is counterproductive.

So quit showing off if you can't be helpful!


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Subject: RE: Capoing: What Key?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 07 Mar 08 - 01:43 PM

I suppose you could call F E#, and you could call E Fb...


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Subject: RE: Capoing: What Key?
From: s&r
Date: 07 Mar 08 - 05:28 PM

If you write music in the key of - say - F#major, the seventh note of the scale is E#/F natural. This is noted as E# because the reading is easier. There would be both the seventh and eighth notes of the scale sharing the same line if E# were not used, with accidentals all over the place and nothing on the E line or space.

Stu


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Subject: RE: Capoing: What Key?
From: GUEST,Chicken Charlie
Date: 07 Mar 08 - 06:06 PM

Right on, PoppaGator.

Gents, this is exactly the kind of cross-chatter I was hoping would stop. We're not talking about a guy who is envisioning writing music in F#; we're trying (some of us, anyway) to get a theory-challenged gentleman to learn to count half steps.

Knowledge is knowing things. Wisdom is being able to tell when to use what you know and when not to.

Actually I'm beginning to think some 'catters with time on their hands invented this character just to bug the rest of us. :)

CC


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Subject: RE: Capoing: What Key?
From: GUEST,Chicken Charlie
Date: 07 Mar 08 - 06:11 PM

Who was going to just drop this, and should have.

I'm not suggesting playing keyboards in sessions. What I'm saying is that it would be well worth your while to look at a piano keyboard .... Oh, the Hell with it, I've already been there.

Learned helplessness is the condition of thinking of reasons why you can't do something, thereby exerting more energy and wasting more time than if you actually did it, and I'm an idiot to remain stuck in this quagmire. Judas F. Priest !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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Subject: RE: Capoing: What Key?
From: Peace
Date: 07 Mar 08 - 06:31 PM

Mr Happy--I humbly submit the following for your consideration.

Assume your guitar is tuned to concert and that you are using a standard EADGBE tuning.

If you play in the E position (chords for that key are E,A and B7--with their relative minors at times), then when you capo at the first fret you will now be playing in F. Second fret and you are playing in F# or Gb (F3 and Gb are the same for most practical purposes. Third fret G. Forth fret= G# or Ab. Fifth fret=A. Sixth fret is Bb. Seventh fret is B (or on rare occasions Cb). Seventh fret is C.

In the A position it goes as follows. First fret is A# or Bb. Second fret is B (and so on).

In the G position, first fret is G# or Ab. Second fret is A. Third fret is A# or Bb. Etc on up the neck.

In the D position, capoing at the first fret makes it D# (or Eb). Second fret is E (or on rare occasions Fb). Third fret is F. Fourth fret is F# or Gb. Fifth fret is fret is G, and so on up the neck.


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Subject: RE: Capoing: What Key?
From: michaelr
Date: 07 Mar 08 - 07:10 PM

Am wearing a T-Shirt that reads:

Musicians' Theory of Relativity

E = Fb


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Subject: RE: Capoing: What Key?
From: Stringsinger
Date: 08 Mar 08 - 04:03 PM

here's what's needed and it's not easy. You have to distinguish between the "voicings" of the chords. These are the pitches that are in the chords. You have to begin to recognize the pitches of the tones in the chord. For example, a major chord is built on the first, third and fifth note of a scale. Major chord=1,3,5. Now, you have to play a major chord and see how these pitches are distributed then you have to identify the 1's,3's and 5's by sound.

Eventually you can learn to hear the various chords by their "voicings" or tone-pitches.

If you are a studious musician, you can learn to identify any chord in this way. Sometimes it takes years but I have taught people to do this to some degree in weeks.

Once you recognize the "voicings" of the chords, then you slap a capo on, the "voicings"
remain the same although the key has changed. When I teach this, I have an excercise
which I call "singing chords". I have the student identify the pitches of the chords by numbers. Then it becomes more available to translate the pitches into actual musical notes. Unfortunately, you gotta' be there.

Next, you have to identify the position of the chords in a progression. That is done numerically using roman numerals. Eventually, you can abstract a chord progression this way from any particular key and apply it to any key.

The combination of identifying the "spelling" of the chord with the "position" of the chord in a progression enables you to use the capo and select keys efficiently.

Frank Hamilton


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Subject: RE: Capoing: What Key?
From: Tattie Bogle
Date: 08 Mar 08 - 05:26 PM

Ah, the voicings, but what about the Vikings?
I once went to a Norwegian song workshop where we were taught to sing in quarter-tones! How would you capo that? (I know, a tin helmet with 2 horns!)


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Subject: RE: Capoing: What Key?
From: Mr Happy
Date: 09 Mar 08 - 06:31 AM

So I now conclude, both from evidence provide on here & also from conversations Fri & Sat night at sesshes with more erudite musicians than I, that E# & Fb do in fact exist, but the criteria for their existence depends on what key you are in


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Subject: RE: Capoing: What Key?
From: s&r
Date: 09 Mar 08 - 12:07 PM

as do Cb and B#

that's not to mention double sharps and flats....

Stu


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Subject: RE: Capoing: What Key?
From: s&r
Date: 09 Mar 08 - 12:10 PM

Examples

Stu


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Subject: RE: Capoing: What Key?
From: Mr Happy
Date: 11 Mar 08 - 08:36 AM

Stu,

Thanks for yr link - perhaps would be enlightening for C.Charlie too!!


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Subject: RE: Capoing: What Key?
From: GUEST,Chicken Charlie
Date: 11 Mar 08 - 10:58 AM

Enlighten THIS you mental slum-dwelling gobsmacked zithermonkey. I don't give a rodent's rectum if they exist or not. You do not count them when you are trying to place your rusted capo on your warped guitar neck. I'm really sorry I posted this, because my only hope left in this world is that this thread will die. I may post 84 equally inane, insipid, blunted and otherwise wasted threads about penguin songs, just to force this one out the bottom of the list. As they say in the nastier parts of Spain, I spit in the milk of your enlightenment.

Have a nice day!

B#B#


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Subject: RE: Capoing: What Key?
From: Mr Happy
Date: 11 Mar 08 - 11:19 AM

'I'm really sorry I posted this?'


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Subject: RE: Capoing: What Key?
From: Mr Happy
Date: 11 Mar 08 - 11:25 AM

BTW, is your nom de guerre chosen for its aptness, 'Chicken' = cowardly - or are you just perpetually in a fowl mood?


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Subject: RE: Capoing: What Key?
From: GUEST,Chicken Charlie
Date: 11 Mar 08 - 12:47 PM

Don't even try, you lame-fingered throwback to a deaf marsupial. If all you can come up with in your half-vast nonvocabulary is the old chicken = coward trick, you don't stand a prayer in any duel of words with a silver-tongued devil like the undersigned. You enlightening me is the joke of the last four centuries combined. I foul myself in the milk of your poor attempt at retribution, you errant Happypithecus.

Gee, isn't this fun?

B#B# but then you probably don't even get that, so why do I bother...

PS. And the dinosaur you rode in on! :)


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Subject: RE: Capoing: What Key?
From: PoppaGator
Date: 11 Mar 08 - 12:51 PM

Charley ain't a coward ~ he's just exasperated at the arcane turn this discussion has taken.

It's all well and good for the more musically educated among us to enlighten each other about fine points of advanced theory, but I'm sure it seemed to Charley, as it did to me, that these flights of fancy could only be confusing to anyone who needs help with the very simple notion of how to identify the key he's playing in when using a capo at a given fret.

This is folk music we're talking about here, isn't it? On some level, we really need to KISS (Keep It Simple, Stupid!)!

I don't mean to suggest that there's anything wrong with learning as much about music as one can, but this thread was begun by asking an extremely simple and basic question.

Happily, it looks like Mr Happy got the answers he needed ~ not just from the forum, but also with the help of some in-person consultation over the weekend ~ and he, apparently, is not at all unhappy that this thread drifted into a much broader and more advanced discussion.


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Subject: RE: Capoing: What Key?
From: Mr Happy
Date: 11 Mar 08 - 12:54 PM

I don't really wish to continue parrying your peurile comments on the public forum.

If you had the guts to join up - get a cookie - I'd perhaps settle yr quarrel via pm


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Subject: RE: Capoing: What Key?
From: GUEST,Chicken Charlie
Date: 11 Mar 08 - 02:20 PM

I do not choose to "join" any group of which you are a member.

And actually I did join; why I reverted to guest status is another matter. It surely couldn't have been anything I said.

B#B#


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Subject: RE: Capoing: What Key?
From: GUEST,stu sans cookie
Date: 11 Mar 08 - 06:55 PM

Seems to me that if the originator is happy to develop the theme that should be OK

Stu


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Subject: RE: Capoing: What Key?
From: Mr Happy
Date: 12 Mar 08 - 05:16 AM

Stu,

Thanks once more for your help & also to others above for theirs.

This is a discussion forum, so which directions a theme may follow are implicit in the meaning of the concept.

********

I've a further query, [if I'm permitted to ask or if certain 'Philistines' don't object] - what does the term 'natural' mean in relation to naming keys?

Someone above mentioned this & I've heard it before, as in 'G natural' or from s&r's post above;

'If you write music in the key of - say - F#major, the seventh note of the scale is E#/F natural.'

What does this mean?


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Subject: RE: Capoing: What Key?
From: GUEST,Tom Bliss
Date: 12 Mar 08 - 05:25 AM

"Without no sharp nor flat attached" - i.e. one of the white notes on the piano.

You only usually say 'natural' to stress that you don't mean sharp or flat - because, for example, if you refer to the note F when you're dealing in the key (scale) of G major - it would be taken to mean F sharp UNLESS you specifically said F natural.

It's the name of a note, not a of key (meaning a scale, really) - though it IS of course an actual key that you press down on the old joanna.

Very confusing, I do admit. Tom


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Subject: RE: Capoing: What Key?
From: Mr Happy
Date: 12 Mar 08 - 05:42 AM

Tom,

Thanks so much for your concise [& non-confrontational] response, cheers!


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Subject: RE: Capoing: What Key?
From: Mr Happy
Date: 12 Mar 08 - 06:58 AM

Some more useful capo info here:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capo


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