Souling Song - how old?

Subject: Souling Song - how old?
From: Ian HP
Date: 15 May 99 - 04:21 PM

On the DT database is the SOULING SONG as below. How old is it? Does anyone have more info?

A soul, a soul, a soul cake
Please, good missus, a soul cake
An apple, a pear, a plum or a cherry
Any good thing to make us all merry
One for Peter, two for Paul
Three for Him who made us all

God Bless the master of this house, the mistress also
And all the little children who around your table grow
Likewise your men and maidens, your cattle and your store
And all that dwells within your gates we wish you ten times more

The lanes are very dirty and my shoes are very thin
I've got a little pocket I can put a penny in
If you haven't got a penny, a ha' penny will do
If you haven't got a ha' penny, then God bless you

Sung for All Souls (November 1). A soul cake was left for the spirits that left their graves on Samhain (Halloween)

Subject: RE: Souling Song - how old?
From: Graham Pirt
Date: 15 May 99 - 07:25 PM

See "Frost and Fire" LP by the Watersons. Bit rushed at the moment but will send details later if no-one else does

Subject: RE: Souling Song - how old?
From: Susanne (skw)
Date: 15 May 99 - 09:45 PM

'Frost and Fire' says nothing about the song's age. Palmer only mentions that All Souls (which is on 2 Nov, apparently) has been going since AD 993. I don't suppose that's any good to you? - Susanne

Subject: RE: Souling Song - how old?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 16 May 99 - 03:52 AM

At a guess about 1300-ish (from the sound). I'll ask the wife when she's out of the pool.

Subject: RE: Souling Song - how old?
From: Graham Pirt
Date: 16 May 99 - 05:52 AM

The tune is one of the most primitive forms in Europe, three tones within the compass of a third. The scale in Soul Song is a trichord of la-si-do with a small hitch to re which might be an abberation of a singer. Bert Lloyd says the tune commonly sung to it is from Cheshire, UK. The tune format is very old but that doesn't necessarily make this tune the same. It certainly fits with All Souls night (pre-Christian to All hallows)

Subject: RE: Souling Song - how old?
From: Roger in Baltimore
Date: 16 May 99 - 08:59 AM

Bruce O.,

Where are you when we need you?

Roger in Baltimore

Subject: RE: Souling Song - how old?
From: Ian HP
Date: 16 May 99 - 10:48 AM

Thanks, folks. I've managed to find a great deal of stuff on the net about souling and soul cakes, which helps me a little, locating the custom as early as the 10th century. What intrigues me is this: what is our earliest evidence for the song to date it? Is there any evidence for the antiquity of the song itself?

Subject: RE: Souling Song - how old?
From:
Date: 16 May 99 - 06:01 PM

In English County Songs, p. 30, 1893.

Subject: RE: Souling Song - how old?
From: Ian HP
Date: 18 May 99 - 04:17 PM

Thanks, anon. I'm going to be tenacious here. How come the song is only dated to 1893 and yet the custom is so ancient? Does the book give any clues? Cheers

Subject: RE: Souling Song - how old?
From: Susanne (skw)
Date: 18 May 99 - 06:36 PM

Could it be that nobody thought such a simple and 'artless' song worthy of being written down or printed before the Victorian collectors? - Susanne

Subject: Lyr Add: THE SOULER'S SONG (1777)
From: IanC
Date: 29 Oct 02 - 11:58 AM

The Soulers' song is given in Brand's "Popular Antiquities" (1777). The words were apparently taken down verbatim from the lips of "the merry pack, who sing them from door to door, on the eve of All - Soul's Day, in Cheshire".

THE SOULER'S SONG.

"Soul day, soul day, Saul
One for Peter, two for Paul,
Three for Him who made us all.
An apple, a pear, a plum or a cherry,
Any good thing that will make us all merry.

Put your hand in your pocket and pull out your keys,
Go down into the cellar, bring up what you please;
A glass of your wine, or a cup of your beer,
And we'll never come souling till this time next year.

We are a pack of merry boys, all in a mind,
We are come a souling for what we can find,
Soul, soul, sole of my shoe,
If you have no apples, money will do;

Up with your kettle and down with your pan,
Give us an answer and let us be gone

Seems a good time to add this!

:-)
Ian

Subject: RE: Souling Song - how old?
From: AggieD
Date: 29 Oct 02 - 12:10 PM

If anyone wants more infor, then Pete Coe may be able to help, try this link .

He was born & brought up in Cheshire and went 'Souling'

Subject: RE: Souling Song - how old?
From: AggieD
Date: 29 Oct 02 - 12:12 PM

Sorry link clicky thing didn't work, try www.backshift.demon.co.uk/petehome.htm

Aggie

Subject: RE: Souling Song - how old?
From: GUEST,Q
Date: 29 Oct 02 - 01:08 PM

Thanks, IanC, for a more authentic version. Was there any suggestion of a tune with it?

Subject: RE: Souling Song - how old?
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 29 Oct 02 - 02:11 PM

The tune, as Graham Pirt mentioned back when this thread was young, is very old and very widespread; most often heard attached, nowadays, to nursery rhymes (Baby Bunting for one) and playground taunts. A. L. Lloyd frequently pointed this out, together with its association with ceremonial customs. It is not the only tune used for souling songs; in some cases tunes and texts have been borrowed from wassail songs.

The earliest published examples of tunes are, so far as I know, a set from Tattenhall (Cheshire), included in Lucy Broadwood's English County Songs (1893) one from Eccleshall (Shropshire) in C. S. Burne's Shropshire Folk-Lore (1883) and one from Mobberley in R. Holland's Glossary of Words used in the County of Chester (1886). The first is the minor trichordal melody made popular in the Revival; the second is similar, but in the major; and the third is a borrowed wassail tune.

Certainly soul-caking is an old custom, but attempts to date it to the 10th century seem to be based solely on the fact that the festival of All Souls' Day was instituted in AD 993, and are probably no more than wishful thinking. Most such customs are little mentioned (if at all) before the 18th century, when there was an upsurge of interest in antiquarian subjects. It seems reasonable to suppose that there was a form of the song current for some time before it was first noted, but we have no way of telling how long. The fact that the tune is old tells us nothing about the song.

Subject: Lyr Add: CHESHIRE ALL SOULS' DAY SONG
From: Jim Dixon
Date: 30 Dec 22 - 06:18 PM

The identical lyrics that IanC posted on 29 Oct 02, which he called THE SOULER’S SONG can also be found in

The Athenæum: Journal of English and Foreign Literature, Science, and the Fine Arts, No. 997,
London, Dec 5, 1846, page 1244.

where it is called CHESHIRE ALL SOULS' DAY SONG.

That pushes the “oldest known” date back by 31 years.

Subject: RE: Souling Song - how old?
From: Reinhard
Date: 31 Dec 22 - 01:38 AM

Uh, the date given by IanC on 29 Oct 02 is 1777, not 1877.

Subject: RE: Souling Song - how old?
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 31 Dec 22 - 02:29 PM

Of the earliest version it might well be worth noting for those not in the know that only the first 3 lines are unique to Souling/Cheshire. The rest of the text is common to many other seasonal busking/cerebrational songs such as Easter Pace-egging, harvest songs and Christmas house visit songs.

Subject: RE: Souling Song - how old?
From: Black belt caterpillar wrestler
Date: 31 Dec 22 - 03:01 PM

My mother had an odd variation in her version from Watchet in Somerset.

If you haven't got a penny a ha'penny will do
If you haven't got a ha'penny a farthing will do,
If you haven't got a farthing shoe will do.

Could this be a corruption of "a sou will do"?


And don't forget to try baking some soulcakes, they are quite tasty.


Robin

Subject: RE: Souling Song - how old?
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 01 Jan 23 - 04:14 PM

We sang at the termination of a few carols whilst house calling at Christmas:

If you haven't got a penny an 'a-p'ny will do,
If you haven't got an 'a-p'ny, well God bless you,
Knockin on the knocker, ringin on the bell,
If you don't give us a penny then you can go to ****

Subject: RE: Souling Song - how old?
From: GeoffLawes
Date: 02 Jan 23 - 02:49 PM

Link to Mudcat post SOULING SONG (aka A-Soalin') /mudcat.org/thread.cfm?threadid=170494#soulingsong:~:text=Date%3A%2018%20Oct%2021%20%2D%2004%3A26%20AM