BS: HMAS Sydney - sunk 1941, located 2008

Subject: RE: BS: HMAS Sydney - sunk 1941, located 2008
From: Tangledwood
Date: 10 Jan 10 - 09:48 PM

Great work, locating Centaur.

It is reported to be at a depth of 2,059 metres. On ABC TV last night they stated that it has been designated a war grave and that meant that diving on it would not be permitted. Darn it, I was just about to get my scuba gear ready.

Subject: RE: BS: HMAS Sydney - sunk 1941, located 2008
From: Charley Noble
Date: 10 Jan 10 - 09:38 PM

Rowan-

Thanks for the update.

Charley Noble, resident in Brooklyn

Subject: RE: BS: HMAS Sydney - sunk 1941, located 2008
From: Rowan
Date: 10 Jan 10 - 05:33 PM

The Centaur team have just been reported as having videoed the wreck , confirming it as the Centaur (complete with the red cross symbol still clearly visible on its bow) and there is an intention to place a bronze plaque next to it.

Closure indeed!

Cheers, Rowan

Subject: RE: BS: HMAS Sydney - sunk 1941, located 2008
From: Charley Noble
Date: 19 Dec 09 - 10:13 PM

Rowan-

It is amazing what these research teams can find.

And it will provide some closure for the families of those who didn't survive the sinking.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: HMAS Sydney - sunk 1941, located 2008
From: Rowan
Date: 19 Dec 09 - 10:03 PM

And now the discoverers of the wrecks of the Sydney and Kormoran are reported as having discovered the wreck of the AHS Centaur, a hospital ship sunk not far from Brisbane by a torpedo from a Japanese submarine in 1943.

Cheers, Rowan

Subject: RE: BS: HMAS Sydney - sunk 1941, located 2008
From: Charley Noble
Date: 14 Aug 09 - 10:54 AM

Here's an even better link to official reports with some simulated stills of the battle: click here for report

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: HMAS Sydney - sunk 1941, located 2008
From: Charley Noble
Date: 14 Aug 09 - 10:48 AM

Here's another report link to the recent HMS Sydney update: Click here for report

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: HMAS Sydney - sunk 1941, located 2008
From: Rowan
Date: 13 Aug 09 - 06:51 PM

The ABC interview that I heard basically covered (almost verbatim, as I recall) the SMH material down to the line All of that made his decision to move in so close to the Kormoran ''almost inexplicable'', Cole said. The speculation about the Kormoran being a supply vessel came after all the discussion on the Cole findings and right at the close of the interview.

Charley's probably right about it being the first time such a notion has been canvassed; as an interested observer, I'd never heard such a speculation before either. It might have been offered by someone who wanted to show exculpating sympathy with Burnett's background as "a fine officer".

Cheers, Rowan

Subject: RE: BS: HMAS Sydney - sunk 1941, located 2008
From: Charley Noble
Date: 13 Aug 09 - 09:00 AM

Thanks, Sandra. The Herald article is certainly a very detailed and graphic summary of this desperate battle.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: HMAS Sydney - sunk 1941, located 2008
From: Sandra in Sydney
Date: 13 Aug 09 - 02:25 AM

feature article in today's Sydney Morning Herald (Thurs Aug 13)
The truth of their deadly battle by Brendon Nicholson

Subject: RE: BS: HMAS Sydney - sunk 1941, located 2008
From: Charley Noble
Date: 12 Aug 09 - 10:53 PM

I don't recall any mention of this previously:

He says the Sydney was peppered with heavy, close range gunfire and hit by a torpedo from the Kormoran.

It's true that the Kormoran was armed with torpedo tubes, as was the Sydney, but I didn't realize the Germans had achieved a hit.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: HMAS Sydney - sunk 1941, located 2008
From: Rowan
Date: 12 Aug 09 - 06:40 PM

Terence Cole, QC, who headed the inquiry into the sinking of the Sydney, has finally given his report.
A transcript of the news report I heard broadcast yesterday is available at ABC Online (Oz ABC, for those of you from the US) and there was also some comment to the effect that the captain of the Sydney might have thought the Kormoran was a supply ship (generally unarmed, apparently) and was thinking of capturing it before it could be scuttled.

Speculation, of course, but it follows a long tradition.

Cheers, Rowan

Subject: RE: BS: HMAS Sydney - sunk 1941, located 2008
From: Charley Noble
Date: 20 Mar 09 - 01:31 PM

Rowan-

Thanks for the update.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: HMAS Sydney - sunk 1941, located 2008
From: Les from Hull
Date: 20 Mar 09 - 10:51 AM

Rowan - thanks for your updates. I've noticed that in an earlier posting some journalist has pointed out 'design flaws' in HMAS Sydney. The ship's boats are clustered together in every warship of the time, but they are not 'lifeboats'. They might be called upon to serve that purpose, but they are not provided with individual davits, but are served by a crane. The 'lifeboat' function is provided by Carley floats which are distributed around the ship and provided with a quick release mechanism. They are however easily damaged by an overwhelming fire such as that from Kormoran.

It's going to be easy but the enquiry can only blame the captain for failing to approach Kormoran with caution. After all this was the service the Sydney was engaged on, hunting down disguised enemy merchant cruisers. We should also applaud the captain of the Kormoran of carrying out his mission with skill and bravery.

Stories like the supposed role of a Japanese submarine often crop up. I think we should treat these conspiracy theories with care, as they are just theories unless anyone can provide any real evidence.

Subject: RE: BS: HMAS Sydney - sunk 1941, located 2008
From: Rowan
Date: 19 Mar 09 - 06:30 PM

In yesterday's Sydney Morning Herald there was a report from the enquiry indicating a lack of caution on the part of the Sydney's captain in approaching the Kormoran. It was known that the only trader likely to be encounterred by the Sydney was the Dutch "Jepara", about 1/3 the size of the Kormoran and depicted in recognition references on board Sydney. It was also commented that sailors went to action stations in only about 1/3 of such approaches (actual numbers were quoted), which would account for the almost complete devastation of Sydney once the Kormoran opened fire.

But, when I searched for the digital version, all I came up with was the following.

Flag casts doubt on submarine theory
A THEORY that a Japanese submarine torpedoed HMAS Sydney in 1941 has taken a further dive with evidence that a painting in a former Japanese naval academy, supposedly celebrating a Japanese submarine's role in the battle, depicts a flag not introduced into the Australian navy until more than 20 years after the war.

Terence Cole, QC, who is heading an inquiry into the sinking of the Sydney, is likely to dismiss the widely held theory of a Japanese submarine's intervention in the battle in November 1941, 18 days before Japan attacked Pearl Harbour.

Austin Chapman, who served with the Commonwealth Occupation Forces in Japan after the war, told the inquiry he had seen the painting at the former academy on the island of Etajima, near another painting which he took to be a celebration of the Japanese victory at Pearl Harbor.

The conning tower of a Japanese submarine was depicted and a cruiser sailing towards it depicting what he took to be the White Ensign. "I immediately thought, 'This is the sinking of the Sydney,"' he said. "I could see a blue background in the corner and the rest was white. And there were stars."

Commander Jack Rush, QC, said the White Ensign was not introduced until 1967, though a White Ensign was flown by the Royal Navy. Mr Cole has heard from a number of witnesses, including author John Samuel, who said one Japanese submarine in the war was unaccounted for. Mr Cole asked how he could infer from that that a Japanese sub was involved in the sinking of the Sydney.

David Angwin, a persistent correspondent with the inquiry, said in evidence he had written to the Japanese Prime Minister saying that a Japanese submarine had been involved in the attack. But he agreed he had only been acting on a theory.

Michael Montgomery, whose 1981 book, Who Sank the Sydney, ignited the debate on the sinking, told the Herald he stood by a theory that the Japanese submarine had torpedoed the Sydney hours after its battle with the German raider Kormoran, and that survivors had been machine-gunned to cover up the involvement.

Cheers, Rowan

Subject: RE: BS: HMAS Sydney - sunk 1941, located 2008
From: Charley Noble
Date: 20 Jan 09 - 08:37 PM

refresh

Subject: RE: BS: HMAS Sydney - sunk 1941, located 2008
From: Charley Noble
Date: 20 Jan 09 - 07:59 AM

It's a scientifically logical explanation, but it's still sad that no Australian sailors survived this brutal battle.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: HMAS Sydney - sunk 1941, located 2008
From: Sandra in Sydney
Date: 20 Jan 09 - 02:16 AM

Sydney's lost crew explained A 67-YEAR-OLD mystery - why the bodies of the crew of HMAS Sydney were never found after the ship went down in 1941 - may have been resolved.

Subject: RE: BS: HMAS Sydney - sunk 1941, located 2008
From: Rowan
Date: 14 Jan 09 - 08:49 PM

Not long before the report Sandra linked us to, there was a report of the action, as remembered by a Kormoran survivor, published in the Sydney Morning Herald; I've been recovering from an encounter with a surgeon so I have no specific details of sources.

According to another report I saw (also in the SMH and around the same time as Sandra's), the initial salvos from the Kormoran were extremely accurate; only four (of 71?) projectiles missing the Sydney, which was only 2000 metres from the Kormoran at the time. These numbers are from the article as reported and are the result of deliberations of the archaeology, records from Kormoran survivors and calculations by naval architects.

So it was no wonder that almost all control/coordination communications within the ship were put out of action almost immediately, along with several turrets and various davits. There was also, in the article, an allegation that design flaws in the Sydney contributed to its almost immediate incapacitation; all the lifeboats were said to be clustered together adjacent to the Walrus' fuel stores, which were highly flammable, and the bulkheads/doors separating compartments were thin steel or plywood incapable of preventing smoke-logging.

Even so, maintaining a distance out of range of the Kormoran and launching the Walrus for an aerial inspection would seem to have been a prudent alternative course of action and I suspect we'll never find out the exact reason(s) why it wasn't followed.

Cheers, Rowan

Subject: RE: BS: HMAS Sydney - sunk 1941, located 2008
From: Charley Noble
Date: 13 Jan 09 - 07:45 PM

refresh

Subject: RE: BS: HMAS Sydney - sunk 1941, located 2008
From: Megan L
Date: 13 Jan 09 - 09:03 AM

I have only just had the time to look at the images amazing and so poingnant.

Subject: RE: BS: HMAS Sydney - sunk 1941, located 2008
From: Charley Noble
Date: 12 Jan 09 - 06:34 PM

Sandra-

Those are amazing images, especially the high resolution ones.

Thanks for the update.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: HMAS Sydney - sunk 1941, located 2008
From: Sandra in Sydney
Date: 12 Jan 09 - 06:02 PM

It's ongoing & I'll post info as it is released.

sandra

Subject: RE: BS: HMAS Sydney - sunk 1941, located 2008
From: Megan L
Date: 12 Jan 09 - 12:48 PM

Thanks Sandra i wondered how the enquiry went

Subject: RE: BS: HMAS Sydney - sunk 1941, located 2008
From: Sandra in Sydney
Date: 12 Jan 09 - 05:37 AM

latest from the HMAS Sydney enquiry
Computer images show HMAS Sydney damage

Subject: RE: BS: HMAS Sydney - sunk 1941, located 2008
From: Charley Noble
Date: 01 Sep 08 - 09:14 PM

Well, this will be an interesting exercise in "closure."

There seems to be a high likelihood that the Sydney's commander was caught napping, and that if he had survived would have been courtmartialed.

I suppose it's "better" that people know as many facts that can be harvested from the wreck.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: HMAS Sydney - sunk 1941, located 2008
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 01 Sep 08 - 06:57 PM

Yep!

Now that they found the bits...

Subject: RE: BS: HMAS Sydney - sunk 1941, located 2008
From: Charley Noble
Date: 01 Sep 08 - 03:16 PM

Are current authorities holding a new hearing in Australia?

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: HMAS Sydney - sunk 1941, located 2008
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 01 Sep 08 - 12:32 AM

HMAS Sydney safety drills 'not kept up'

Subject: RE: BS: HMAS Sydney - sunk 1941, located 2008
From: Little Hawk
Date: 14 Jun 08 - 05:47 PM

I should think that the finding of any gravesite, no matter how ancient, would prompt feelings of solemnity in any thinking person...assuming they were capable of showing respect, that is.

Subject: RE: BS: HMAS Sydney - sunk 1941, located 2008
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 13 Jun 08 - 09:52 PM

"Remains of Roman soldiers were unearthed near me some years back, should I stick a wreath of red flowers on it ?"

I wouldn't ridicule anyone for doing that sincerely. Archaelogists always have respect for the bones they dig - saying that they ARE people.

Subject: RE: BS: HMAS Sydney - sunk 1941, located 2008
From: Rowan
Date: 13 Jun 08 - 08:46 PM

I haven't heard much about the inquiry into the sinking of the Sydney but there has been welcome progress on
And yes, they are digging at Flanders, because a large group of Australians killed at Fromelles were unaccounted for in the official documentation of actions and subsequent burials. There is now some possibility that these people were buried in an area unmarked (and thus unrecorded) at the time and there is an archaeological investigation being conducted as I write.

On Oz Radio National news yesterday the excavation at Fromelles (an unmarked burial site from an action in 1916) had uncovered the remains of approximately 40 personnel. Although the excavation was limited in extent, about 20 "Rising Sun" collar badges worn by Australian troops and two British Army insignia buttons were found, confirming the excavation site as containing military burials; it is thought that some 160 Allied troops were buried there by German troops. The excavation is being backfilled and restored and the property owner has donated the site to the relevant govt authority.

Although some remains allowed military affiliation to be ascertained, I gather no personal identification has yet been possible and the next step is for intergovt discussions to determine whether all the remains in the area should be removed to existing War Graves sites for reburial or whether they should remian in situ and the site be declared a War Grave site.

Cheers, Rowan

Subject: RE: BS: HMAS Sydney - sunk 1941, located 2008
From: Sandra in Sydney
Date: 30 May 08 - 11:39 AM

thanks from me, too

Subject: RE: BS: HMAS Sydney - sunk 1941, located 2008
From: Megan L
Date: 30 May 08 - 07:55 AM

Thanks for the update Rowan this is such an interesting thread

Subject: RE: BS: HMAS Sydney - sunk 1941, located 2008
From: Charley Noble
Date: 30 May 08 - 07:48 AM

Rowan-

Thanks for the update.

History is always a puzzle, and there are many unanswered questions that arise from this incident. History is also intensely personal for the families of crewmembers, and one would hope that they would welcome the more factual information that should be presented at this inquiry.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: HMAS Sydney - sunk 1941, located 2008
From: Rowan
Date: 29 May 08 - 10:13 PM

An inquiry into the sinking of HMAS Sydney off the coast of Western Australia during World War II has begun in Sydney today.

Cheers, Rowan

Subject: RE: BS: HMAS Sydney - sunk 1941, located 2008
From: Charley Noble
Date: 14 May 08 - 11:01 PM

I believe we are being trolled. I would not honor/honour our "guests" with a reply.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: HMAS Sydney - sunk 1941, located 2008
From: Rowan
Date: 14 May 08 - 10:31 PM

This was 1941, 67 years ago. If any old comrades or old codgers are still knocking about they are most likely in their dotage. Do you know any families still grieving for the crew?

Mallen Streak, I presume you're referring to the finding of the Sydney. If you'd followed the link to the footage of the search for it, broadcast by the ABC, you'd have seen there are families who are, still, grieving for members of the crew of that ship. Furthermore, if you'd read my post about the Centaur (let alone followed the link I included about the search for it and watched that video), it should have been clear that it is the families of those lost on that hospital ship who are keen on its location being discovered.

In both cases the wrecks are classified as war graves so there's no thought of even disturbing them, let alone raising them.

And there are plenty of old comrades and old codgers still knocking about; most of the ones I know try to shield their loved ones from knowledge of the harrowing details of what they went through in wartime.

Cheers, Rowan

Subject: RE: BS: HMAS Sydney - sunk 1941, located 2008
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 14 May 08 - 06:00 AM

I am grateful to those old codgers, and to their friends who grow not old.

Subject: RE: BS: HMAS Sydney - sunk 1941, located 2008
From: GUEST,The Mallen Streak
Date: 14 May 08 - 04:00 AM

"for closure for relatives and ex-comrades".
Teibus you really should do a stand up act. This was 1941, 67 years ago. If any old comrades or old codgers are still knocking about they are most likely in their dotage. Do you know any families still grieving for the crew (besides yourself)?

I can never understand why people go on such events. In a time of war these involved either kill or be killed. Why not celebrate the lives of violent bank raiders or mass murderers ?

Remains of Roman soldiers were unearthed near me some years back, should I stick a wreath of red flowers on it ?

Subject: RE: HMAS Sydney - sunk 1941, located 2008
From: Megan L
Date: 14 May 08 - 03:09 AM

On the 15th September 1914 private David Sinclair was killed. His wife who at the time was five months pregnant with my mother was never told that all she received was a telgram "Missing presumed dead" every night for the rest of her life she kept a lamp lit in the window waiting for her Dauvitt. Now part of her was very well aware he would never come home but because of that telegram there was always the what if (What if he had been hit on the head and lost his memory, someday it might return and he will look for me" She brought up his children and never married again because her Dauvitt just might make it home some day.

I don't nescessarily agree with this modern idea of families forcing the lifting of fishing boats that sank, men of the sea have always accepted that one day it may be their grave. I can however understand families wanting to know where their loved one lost his or her life it is very difficult to move on if you cannot close a door (This is not the same as remembering a loved one fondly from within the love and security of a new relationship)

I also accept and agree with Little hawks point that mankind by nature is curious from the moment as infants when we stuff something in our mouth and throught life we have an urge to learn about things. Sadly the one thing we never seem to learn from is the past.

Subject: RE: BS: HMAS Sydney - sunk 1941, located 2008
From: Teribus
Date: 14 May 08 - 01:49 AM

"GUEST,Bob Morris - PM
Date: 13 May 08 - 08:30 PM

Christ can they not leave these things alone ? At the end of the day who really cares ? Next they will be digging up trenches in Flanders. An opportunity for a group of old men to wear medals and recall murder and killing and some tube blowing a bugle. It turns my stomach how some people keep the desire to glorify war and conflict.

Killing is no reason to celebrate."

"Who cares?... An opportunity for a group of old men to wear medals and recall murder and killing and some tube blowing a bugle."

No Bob, for closure as Rowan says for relatives and ex-comrades, so that they can give due respect for their friends and loved ones who gave their lives in order that "some tube" like you could post what you did.

You have a weird idea of what qualifies as celebrating - "At the setting of the sun" indeed, you might not appreciate what was sacrificed fortunately others do.

Subject: RE: BS: HMAS Sydney - sunk 1941, located 2008
From: Rowan
Date: 14 May 08 - 01:36 AM

Christ can they not leave these things alone ? At the end of the day who really cares ? Next they will be digging up trenches in Flanders.

Bob, if you'd followed the video clip you would have seen that most of the people who really care are the family members left behind; in many cases they deal with a void of 'not knowing'. This was particularly true for the Sydney and is partly true for the Centaur.

And yes, they are digging at Flanders, because a large group of Australians killed at Fromelles were unaccounted for in the official documentation of actions and subsequent burials. There is now some possibility that these people were buried in an area unmarked (and thus unrecorded) at the time and there is an archaeological investigation being conducted as I write.

I'm sure you didn't mean to appear dismissive of others' feelings.

Cheers, Rowan

Subject: RE: BS: HMAS Sydney - sunk 1941, located 2008
From: Little Hawk
Date: 13 May 08 - 08:41 PM

Well, some people really like historical ships, just for their own sake, and want to know more about them and know what may have happened in a particular incident. I know I do. I find them all interesting, regardless which side they were on or whether or not they were warships. For example, I find the Titanic very interesting too. And what's so terrible about that, Bob?

Subject: RE: BS: HMAS Sydney - sunk 1941, located 2008
From: GUEST,Bob Morris
Date: 13 May 08 - 08:30 PM

Christ can they not leave these things alone ? At the end of the day who really cares ? Next they will be digging up trenches in Flanders. An opportunity for a group of old men to wear medals and recall murder and killing and some tube blowing a bugle. It turns my stomach how some people keep the desire to glorify war and conflict.

Killing is no reason to celebrate.

Subject: RE: BS: HMAS Sydney - sunk 1941, located 2008
From: Rowan
Date: 13 May 08 - 06:37 PM

And now they're turning their attention to finding the hospital ship Centaur, sunk at night off Stradbroke Island (Queensland) by a torpedo from the Japanese submarine I171, even though it was brightly lit and clearly identified as a hospital ship. It was Australia's worst lss at sea in the Pacific.

There's a video clip at Families campaign for Centaur search

Cheers, Rowan

Subject: RE: BS: HMAS Sydney - sunk 1941, located 2008
From: Charley Noble
Date: 01 May 08 - 06:47 PM

We do need to be more cautious when commenting on military events, and what sources we are using for our conclusions. And civility is encouraged on this forum although I am not a moderator, and have no weapons at hand to dispatch unrurly posters.

I also have a fascination with military history, but I try not to lose sight of the fact that it is not all some "war game," that real people on both sides were killed, maimed or otherwise injured. At times I'm exceedingly well read, and at other times I shoot from the hip but I try to resist the temptation to do so.

This had been a good thread, and informative. And now it has gotten somewhat heated, but some would say with provocation.

Taking a deep breath before further posting may not be enough.

But I would hope everyone does that.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: HMAS Sydney - sunk 1941, located 2008
From: Megan L
Date: 01 May 08 - 03:30 AM

It is strange how things are linked I metioned HMS Royal Oak and her tragic loss in ww11, we had abother tragic maritime disater in the safe haven of Scapa Flow. On the 9th July 1917 HMS Vanguard exploded at her moorings with the loss of somethin like 843 lives.

HMS Vanguard This site tells some of her story the link to this thread is that one of the ships that witnessed her sinking was HMAS Melbourne. The world is smaller than we think.

Subject: RE: BS: HMAS Sydney - sunk 1941, located 2008
From: GUEST,Egan
Date: 01 May 08 - 03:28 AM

Wrong again Teribus, but hey, nothing new in that for you !

Subject: RE: BS: HMAS Sydney - sunk 1941, located 2008
From: Teribus
Date: 01 May 08 - 01:29 AM

Couldn't agree more MeganL, both John Gray of Oz and I have expressed our opinions of Mr Dengates song, his lyrics and what they express are both inaccurate and offensive. Guest Egan's attempt to defend them as being anything other than what they are is risible, but at least Guest Egan now knows a great deal more about the loss of HMS Sheffield than he apparently did at 30 Apr 08 - 02:29 PM on this thread.