BS: Views on Mugabe Zimbabwe

Subject: BS: Views on Mugabe Zimbabwe
From: Lox
Date: 06 Apr 08 - 07:32 AM

I suddenly became aware that there didn't seem to a discussion going on and I have no doubt that there are many well developed and heart felt opinions here.

I'd like to hear them.

My take is ... Mugabe is reeling because he managed to lose a rigged election.

Oh the shame!

Maybe they can send him to the beijing Olymipics with the shooting team ... as a target!

Subject: RE: BS: Views on Mugabe Zimbabwe
From: Folk Form # 1
Date: 06 Apr 08 - 07:42 AM

National liberators should follow the example of Guiseppe Garibaldi. Once he had made his country independent, he retired to a farm given by a grateful Italian government, grateful that he had liberated Italy from the Austro-Hungarian Empire, unified Italy, and did not seek power for himself. Just because you have the skills necessary to successfully fight your enemies, doesnt mean you have the political skills to run your country. Mugabe is a good example of this. There maybe are exceptions, but I cannot think of any.

Subject: RE: BS: Views on Mugabe Zimbabwe
From: Fiolar
Date: 06 Apr 08 - 07:57 AM

A great cartoon in today's Sunday newspaper (The Observer). It shows Mugabe watching the results of yesterday's Grand National and saying: "Hey I didn't win. I demand a rerun".

Subject: RE: BS: Views on Mugabe Zimbabwe
From: alanabit
Date: 06 Apr 08 - 08:05 AM

I think Rockin' Reeler is right.
I also believe Mugabe will keep his pre-election promise not to surrender power whether he won the election or not. It would appear that he lost the election convincingly even after having cheated. However, I can't see anything but danger and bloodshed if there is any outside interference, or if the ordinary Zimbabweans do not obey the law (tyrannnous as it is). Mugabe will not live forever and if the opposition is patient, the inevitable change of government will come without a huge amount of violence and further destruction.
It was galling for the non Fascists of Portugal and Spain to wait until the deaths of Salazar and Franco respectively. However they did - and both countries quickly became stable democracies because of it. There must be no revolution or uprising. The law of the gun will only lead to more law of the gun. Too many countries have gone down that road.

Subject: RE: BS: Views on Mugabe Zimbabwe
From: Charley Noble
Date: 06 Apr 08 - 10:40 AM

Zimbabwe is such a basket case now that it is hard to see how it could get much worse. It's true that Mugabe still controls the armed forces and his militia, and that massive civil disobedience (if it could be organized) would lead to bloodshed. Alternatively, an ambitious general could stage a coup, an option which would provide some short term relief but an uncertain future.

At the same time Zimbabwe's nearest neighbors (Zambia, Botswana, Mozambique, South Africa) all seem reluctant to exercise any political pressure. Tanzania once played a key role in expelling Idi Amin from neighboring Uganda. I'm just too removed from East Africa now to play this kind of chess game.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Views on Mugabe Zimbabwe
From: Ron Davies
Date: 06 Apr 08 - 10:53 AM

I saw a great cartoon on this too. Mugabe as a vulture, Zimbabwe as a dead wildebeest. Caption (as far as I remember it): " No, I'm not leaving yet; my work is not yet done."

Subject: RE: BS: Views on Mugabe Zimbabwe
From: Little Hawk
Date: 06 Apr 08 - 01:59 PM

Rockin' Reeler - "Just because you have the skills necessary to successfully fight your enemies, doesn't mean you have the political skills to run your country. Mugabe is a good example of this. There maybe are exceptions, but I cannot think of any."

Well, I can. George Washington. Fidel Castro. Ho Chi Minh. Josip Broz Tito. Charles De Gaulle. Several different leaders of Israel. And there have no doubt been quite a few others, whether or not you agreed with their politics...they clearly did have the political skills to effectively run their respective countries after having defeated their enemies on the battlefield.

Nevertheless, I think your point is a good one, and I tend to agree with it in a broad sense. Yes, Garibaldi probably did do exactly the right thing, as you say.

Subject: RE: BS: Views on Mugabe Zimbabwe
From: folk1e
Date: 06 Apr 08 - 03:01 PM

"Mugabe will not live forever and if the opposition is patient, the inevitable change of government will come without a huge amount of violence and further destruction." .....Alanabit

So the purpose of an election is?

Subject: RE: BS: Views on Mugabe Zimbabwe
From: Peace
Date: 06 Apr 08 - 03:04 PM

He will NOT relinquish power and there will be civil war as a result.

Subject: RE: BS: Views on Mugabe Zimbabwe
From: folk1e
Date: 06 Apr 08 - 03:15 PM

How many governments will still recognize him as leader?

It might do some good if some got off the fence and refused to deal with him (or even stopped any of his ministers or wives coming over for a shopping trip)!

Subject: RE: BS: Views on Mugabe Zimbabwe
From: Peace
Date: 06 Apr 08 - 03:26 PM

The world will await the deaths of 100,000 people then appeal to the UN which will proclaim that injustice is taking place in Zimbabwe and another 100,000 people will get killed. THEN, the civilized countries of this planet--all two (?) of them--will decry the inaction and another story will take top spot in the news and it will disappear--not Zimbabwe, not Mugabe, not the deaths--just the story. Think Burma, Tibet, Somalia, Sudan, the Palestinian situation, the Israel situation--ach!

I wish I drank.

Subject: RE: BS: Views on Mugabe Zimbabwe
From: alanabit
Date: 06 Apr 08 - 03:33 PM

While I agree with the sentiments of Peace and folkle, I think we must live with the fact that Zimbabwe is not a democracy at the moment. All dictators like the results of elections, which "legitimise" their claims to power. Equally, all dictators disregard the results of elections, which produce the "wrong" result from their point of view.
I can offer the examples of Portugal and Spain, which have succeeded as democracies on the death of Fascist dictators. I am still on the lookout for a country in which a peaceful democracy was the immediate outcome of a civil war.

Subject: RE: BS: Views on Mugabe Zimbabwe
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 06 Apr 08 - 04:13 PM

Nicaragua likely would have been if it hadn't been for the contras, organised and supported from outside.

But I basically agree with alanabit there. The last thing Zimbabwe needs is an invasion by would-be liberators. More especially from outside the region.

Subject: RE: BS: Views on Mugabe Zimbabwe
From: Charley Noble
Date: 06 Apr 08 - 09:09 PM

There could be a case made for neighboring countries to intervene, as Tanzania did in Uganda. South Africa is the best prepared state to do that, or threaten to do that unless the results of the election are respected. I'm just not sure of why or why not they wouldn't do that. From my perspective, as an interested outside observer, the current crisis in Zimbabwe only destabilizes the entire region.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Views on Mugabe Zimbabwe
From: fumblefingers
Date: 06 Apr 08 - 09:22 PM

Once the old bugger croaks, there will be a power vacuum to be filled. This usually means whoever has the most guns takes over in countries like Zimbabwe, where the legal infrastructure that controls things like succession has disappeared after decades of dictatorship. It's more than likely that the next transition will not be without violence.

Subject: RE: BS: Views on Mugabe Zimbabwe
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 06 Apr 08 - 10:05 PM

He ain't going without a fight. He is trying to void the election with a second vote and a recount. I guess it all depends on whether the military continues to support him.
Many of the best educated are now in Botswana and other more stable countries, according to reports on the BBC.

One scenario would be for the top military leaders to depose him. Of course, that could exacerbate the plight of the people with probable continued destructive misrule.
It seems unlikely that the UN will do anything except impose more useless restrictions.

Subject: RE: BS: Views on Mugabe Zimbabwe
From: Riginslinger
Date: 06 Apr 08 - 11:17 PM

I always thought his name should be pronounced:
Mug-a-bee!

Subject: RE: BS: Views on Mugabe Zimbabwe
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 07 Apr 08 - 06:18 AM

Something you may not have been aware of is that he is actually from yorkshire.



Don't believe me?



then say his name backwards ...

Subject: RE: BS: Views on Mugabe Zimbabwe
From: folk1e
Date: 07 Apr 08 - 06:29 AM

I think "headcases" UK TV got it about right (if it wasn't so serious)

Subject: RE: BS: Views on Mugabe Zimbabwe
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 07 Apr 08 - 08:16 AM

LOL Lox! :-)

But he really is a shit.

Subject: RE: BS: Views on Mugabe Zimbabwe
From: Barry Finn
Date: 07 Apr 08 - 10:38 AM

Other African nations as well as the African Union have been asked to peacefully intervine & use their influence to help with this situation. We'll have to see how it plays out. So far no violence, yet but security forces are out on the street.

Barry

Subject: RE: BS: Views on Mugabe Zimbabwe
From: Teribus
Date: 07 Apr 08 - 11:03 AM

The Yorkshire connection I liked.

As to how the man is acting, how else would you expect a good little marxist to behave.

Subject: RE: BS: Views on Mugabe Zimbabwe
From: alanabit
Date: 07 Apr 08 - 11:55 AM

Like the good guys Teribus... You know, the Pinochets, the Galitieris, the Noriegas, Prince Fahids and all those bastions of anti-Marxist virtue.

Subject: RE: BS: Views on Mugabe Zimbabwe
From: eddie1
Date: 07 Apr 08 - 12:35 PM

I have it on good authority from one of my Harare underworld contacts that the main reason for the delay in releasing the election results is that the file containing the definitive results was stolen from Government House during a burglary in early February!

Eddie

Subject: RE: BS: Views on Mugabe Zimbabwe
From: alanabit
Date: 10 Apr 08 - 12:33 AM

It looks like Mugabe is taking no chances this time.

Subject: RE: BS: Views on Mugabe Zimbabwe
From: Charley Noble
Date: 10 Apr 08 - 08:07 AM

Alanabit-

I've seldom seen a clearer plan for national implosion.

A case for intervention is being made. I hope action is not too little, too late. And it would best be headed by the neighboring nations.

Teribus-

Any other suggestions?

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Views on Mugabe Zimbabwe
From: alanabit
Date: 10 Apr 08 - 11:31 AM

It is sick, but the fact is that Zimbabwe is a dictatorship for the time being and is likely to remain one until Mugabe dies. I think the opposition should face "defeat" with as much dignity and grace as they can at the moment. It's not fair, but even greater injustices and barbarity will be unleashed if there are massive street protests against the government. The only possible outcome of that could be a military government, which would remove any prospect of real democracy for a generation.

Subject: RE: BS: Views on Mugabe Zimbabwe
From: Teribus
Date: 11 Apr 08 - 11:39 AM

"Like the good guys Teribus... You know, the Pinochets, the Galitieris, the Noriegas, Prince Fahids and all those bastions of anti-Marxist virtue." - alanabit

If you think that those named above are the good guys that is up to you, but please don't ever attempt to suggest that that is what I think - fair enough? Of those you name, none I think were, "bastions of anti-Marxist virtue" just different sides of the same power-obsessed self-seeking coin.

Going through your list none were ever elected, Noriega was never actually even Head of State. Pinochet actually instigated and oversaw the return to democratic rule in Chile and abidded by the Referendum vote that voted for the end of his rule - Something that many wish Bob Mugabe would do.

Best thing to happen would be if he (Mugabe) wandered off to this Conference in Lusaka and did not return. Otherwise it is a matter for the people of Zimbabwe, they voted for him, its up to them to get rid of him and his regime, if they do not then Zimbabwe is condemned to be a basket case nation for decades to come. For Zimbabwe's neighbours, its a question of how much legitimacy they want to lend to Mugabe's Government when against all the evidence he announces that He and his ZANU-PF Party won the recent election.

South Africa has already started sliding down the same slippery slope.

Subject: RE: BS: Views on Mugabe Zimbabwe
From: Peace
Date: 11 Apr 08 - 11:43 AM

"but the fact is that Zimbabwe is a dictatorship for the time being and is likely to remain one until Mugabe dies."

A statement and solution all in one.

Subject: RE: BS: Views on Mugabe Zimbabwe
From: Peace
Date: 11 Apr 08 - 01:16 PM

Just saw in the news that political rallies have been banned by the police.

Subject: RE: BS: Views on Mugabe Zimbabwe
From: alanabit
Date: 11 Apr 08 - 03:11 PM

Actually Teribus, all of those unpleasant people on my list, were at various times considered to be, as I (admittedly sarcastically) described them, by both the UK government and the lovely CIA. In fact, I would call the phrase "Marxist dictator" an oxymoron in the same way as I would perceive phrases like "vegetarian butcher" or "pacifist killer". Mugabe is no more of a socialist for robbing the people of Zimbabwe than Hitler was a Christian for killing Jews. What really put my back up was your use of the word "Marxist" as a perjorative.
On one point we are agreed. A dictator is a dictator whatever political colour he paints himself. As it happens, I also agree with Peace's ironic comment. Nature is likely to take its course and rid Zimbabwe of a dictator. I hope it is sooner rather than later.
By he way, those of us, who know a few Chilean refugees, are aware that Pinochet's commitment to democracy was at best unconvincing.

Subject: RE: BS: Views on Mugabe Zimbabwe
From: Teribus
Date: 11 Apr 08 - 08:03 PM

alanabit, what I would like to hear from you is a frank, honest adimission that the likes of Stalin, Moa, Pol Pot, Ho Chi Mihn, Castro and all those who purported to be scions of the Marxist left killed one hundred times more and deliberately did more damage to the the human race in general than those you throw up in an attempt to put words into my mouth. We are talking about recorded historical fact here alanabit, not opinion.

Come along alanabit you give me one example of a "Marxist" who has done his people a single whit of good or advancement, or improved their lot in life one jot. Then explain to me why all those seeking asylum be it political or economic are fleeing to the big bad WEST.

By the bye, the record does show that Pinochet bowed to the will of his people - Mugabe a sworn Marxist has not - Defend that.

Subject: RE: BS: Views on Mugabe Zimbabwe
From: Peace
Date: 11 Apr 08 - 08:22 PM

Ah, c'mon guys. We know damned well that most folks follow the money.



"Hey, you gonna give me $250,000 for arms?"

Uh, yes, we have considered that. But we wish to give only to those who believe in our political philosophy.

"And what political philosophy would that be?"

We are avowed Marxist.

"Really? REALLY? What a coincidence."



You guys know that most people wouldn't recognize political philosophy if it bit their nuts off. It's about power and control. Best solution costs $1.25, IMO. I suggested that with Hussein. But they did it the civilized way and got tens of thousands of kids killed and maimed at a cost of trillions. Yeah, right!

Subject: RE: BS: Views on Mugabe Zimbabwe
From: alanabit
Date: 12 Apr 08 - 03:27 AM

Teribus, you wrote:

"...who purported to be scions of the Marxist left..."

That's a telling phrase. Perverts, who purported to be "Christians", raped kids in the Texas colony and were responsible for the Waco diasaster and the Oklahoma bombing. Neither of us would wish to tar all Christians with the same brush, because of the actions of a few criminals, who call themselves Christians. What somebody purports to be is neither here nor there. It's what they do what counts. As for admitting that Marxists are intrinsically worse than their opponents, or that they they do more deliberate harm than their opponenents - that will be a long time coming.

"We are talking about recorded historical fact here alanabit, not opinion."

OK then Teribus, prove to me that they killed "one hundred times more" people than the Fascists of Germany, Italy, Japan, Spain and Portugal!

Stalin was a common or garden thug. Mao was a mixture of a thug and a theoritician, who was ill suited to power. The same was true of the despicable Pol Pot. Castro was an opportunist. However, he reduced adult illiteracy and infant mortality to levels lower than those in parts of Washington DC. As for Ho Chi Minh, perhaps we should ask the Vietnamese if they would like a return to the reign of President Thieu, for whom the USA government shipped out millions of dollars of gold booty at the end of the war, which he had made from his "interests" in drugs and prostitution?

I have nowhere defended Mugabe's abuse of power or arrogant refusal to submit to a free and fair election.

"By the bye, the record does show that Pinochet bowed to the will of his people." Wrong. He negotiated deals to get himself out of prosecution and frequently threatened another military coup if the government refused to bow to his bidding. He was a a thug and a bully and thoroughly deserves his place in history alongside traitors like Stalin, Pol Pot, Franco and the other riff raff.

I wrote in an earlier post that the phrase "Marxist dictator" was inherently absurd. However, in my life time, one openly Marxist president was elected. He was, of course, Allende of Chile. He was neither a saint nor an economic genius. However, I doubt even you Teribus, would like to put him up alongside monsters like Stalin. We will never know whether he could have achieved much, because with their usual commitment to democracy in South America, the CIA enlisted the traitor and thug Pinochet to depose him.

In short Teribus, I freely condemn any abuse of power by any politician - left or right. However, I reject totally the absurd assertion that so called "Marxist" politicians are intrinsically more evil than the other power grabbers of this world. It makes about as much sense as proclaiming that a Christian murderer is better than a Muslim murderer.

Subject: RE: BS: Views on Mugabe Zimbabwe
From: akenaton
Date: 12 Apr 08 - 04:24 AM

With almost one millions deaths to his credit in Iraq, would Mr Antony Blair, now being feted throughout the world as a "Peace Envoy" and probable next leader of the European Community, come into the short list for "Despot of the 21st century"

Blair, like Bush, is also a committed Christian.

Isn't it easy to trow labels at people??

I tried to post the following on the thread started by Guest (Stillwater), and closed by the thought police led by Liz the Squeak.

"Unfortunately Guest, although I agree with much you say it is in the interests of outside interests to involve themselves in the affairs of other countries....especially developing countries.

Our foreign spending is not simply altruism, but a necessity to keep our rapacious economic system on the road.
We need complient, manipulated populations in "developing countries" to provide cheap materials and sevices........and to buy the junk that the developed nations produce.

Until we begin to understand the damage done by the economics of the madhouse and that the "developed" lifestyle is unsustainable, the world will remain a butchers shop.

I'm starting to get pissed off by people who diss others opinions and try to cut short debate by shouting "TROLL ALERT"
Who the fuck do they think they are to tell us who we should respond to?

Now, would anybody like to know how to make warm blankets from drid out tea bags?...Ake"

Subject: RE: BS: Views on Mugabe Zimbabwe
From: Teribus
Date: 12 Apr 08 - 05:15 AM

Accumulated total of deaths attributed to "Communist" rule and its adherents since its inception amounts to over 70 million people (Stalin alone was responsible for over 20 million - He, alanabit, made Hitler look like a "Teddy-Bear" and that considering that mans career takes a bit of doing. The deaths attributed to Mao particularly those that occurred as a result of his "cultural revolution" they say cannot be accurately quantified) By the bye Castro not only, "reduced adult illiteracy and infant mortality to levels lower than those in parts of Washington DC", he also reduced the population of Cuba by killing 102,000 plus the vast numbers of his greatful population that managed to flee his bountiful rule.

Subject: RE: BS: Views on Mugabe Zimbabwe
From: akenaton
Date: 12 Apr 08 - 05:24 AM

Ah Teribus whose "facts" are you using today?
That is just so much foolish bluster.
The numbers are meaningless
How do the people who compile these "facts" define "killing"

Did the people who left Cuba after the revolution really do so because they hated socialism? Or was there some darker reason?
Were some of the dead counter-revolutionaries...supporters of the Batista regime/ A regime similar to Saddam's Iraq?

Your facts mean nothing!

Subject: RE: BS: Views on Mugabe Zimbabwe
From: akenaton
Date: 12 Apr 08 - 05:28 AM

Would you take responsibility for the thousands killed in Iraq and other countries due to Western sanctions?
Facts?......What facts?

Subject: RE: BS: Views on Mugabe Zimbabwe
From: Leadfingers
Date: 12 Apr 08 - 05:55 AM

In the run up to the election that got Eee Bah Gum into power in the first place one of (I Think) Ian Smith's peope said " He wants One Man One Vote -- ONE TIME" And No One took any notice !

Subject: RE: BS: Views on Mugabe Zimbabwe
From: alanabit
Date: 12 Apr 08 - 07:03 AM

Teribus: This discussion is not making much progress. I suspect it is partly because you have ignored the central point I have made. Stalin was butcher and a hypocrite. He was not, repeat not a Socialist, a Communist or a Marxist. I suspect you are old enough to recall the old Conservative joke that the Soviet Union was the one country in the world, which was "safe" from Communism. I have made no defence of butchers, who call themselves Marxists. They are simply butchers.
Now we are back to the tiresome numbers game. We do not know for sure how many people Stalin killed, because the historians have not yet had access to all the papers. In the case of Hitler, we are better informed, because the perpetrators documented their own crimes so meticulously. That Stalin was a butcher is beyond dispute. To assert that he was proven to be worse than Hitler, or that he killed more people, is at best a pretty bold statement. I will also remind you that if you look at the casualty figures - particularly for civilians in China - for the period of Japanese Pacific expansion in the thirties - before war had even broken out in Europe - you will discover another horrible set of tragic statistics.
On the subject of Cuba, you might ask those with memories of Batista's rule whether they would like him back. You obviously seem to think Cuba's economic problems have nothing to do with the American economic embargo on the country. If that is the case, I have difficulty in seeing how we can continue this discussion on a factual basis.

Subject: RE: BS: Views on Mugabe Zimbabwe
From: Charley Noble
Date: 12 Apr 08 - 09:46 AM

No one is very optimistic about the talks being held by neighboring countries this weekend. Can't say I blame them. I still think that the threat of military intervention by South Africa would convince Mugabe to retire, or be deposed by his own generals.

However, South Africa appears to be only asking that the election results be published and respected, not enough of a signal for Mugabe to opt for an exit strategy.

Too bad.

Charley Noble, on the road in Brooklyn

Subject: RE: BS: Views on Mugabe Zimbabwe
From: Teribus
Date: 12 Apr 08 - 10:20 AM

Well now who was it again that said something to the effect, "A single death is a tragedy, a million deaths is a statistic". It is a fact that a statement such as that was made, care to tell us who came out with that Akenaton? alanabit? Care to tell us when and in what context?

Again please correct me if I am wrong, but the country that Stalin presided over was the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics wasn't it? And while you may be of the opinion that Stalin was not a socialist, communist or Marxist, I rather tend to think that he and his closest colleagues would vehemently disagree with you. As you quite rightly say he was a butcher and a hypocrite.

And wasn't the Party that came to power in Germany in 1933 not the National Socialist Party? Now once again you might not think that Hitler was a Socialist, your opinion, but he certainly viewed himself as such although the Nationalist bit was the more dominant in his thinking, and he distrusted and despised the old German aristocracy.

You refer to a tiresome numbers game and call into account the credibility of the estimates made on sound evidence and statements of witnesses that cast the "leaders" of the left in a bad light. Yet when it comes to attributing deaths to the actions of democratic western governments as Akenaton has done ("With almost one millions deaths to his credit in Iraq") extremely woolly and basically flawed estimates are considered more than adequate to be taken at face value, to be further quoted as being gospel truth, even when those who reported those estimates clearly stated that they represent those who MAY HAVE DIED, all of a sudden it becomes HAVE BEEN KILLED. Now I don't know about you alanabit but that does not seem to be a very level or objective approach.

The numbers for those quoted I got from official biographies and historical accounts of the period and although estimates, the numbers reflect the lower set of figures (Some accounts put Mao's tally at around 70 million on his own - No western democracy has ever come close, even to the lower set of figures - TRUE?)

Stalin:
- Kulak purge (millions died from starvation and Russia never again was able to feed herself and had to rely on imported grain - Poor backward feudal "Mother Russia" never had to do that during the reign of any Tsar)
- The purge of the Red Army in 1938 (Cost the Army about one third of its personnel and paralysed the officer corps who were too afraid to take any independent decisions - That was why they did so badly against the Germans in 1941)
- the Gulags (Alexander Isayevich Solzhenitsyn imprisoned and exiled 1945–57 for anti-Stalinist comments. Much of his writing is semi-autobiographical and highly critical of the system of Russian dictator Joseph Stalin, including One Day in the Life of Ivan Denisovich (1962), which deals with the labour camps under Stalin, and The Gulag Archipelago (1973), an exposé of the whole Soviet labour-camp network. The latter work led to his expulsion from the USSR in 1974. He was awarded the Nobel Prize for Literature in 1970 - I take it that it was all a figment of his imagination alanabit?)
- the creation of the "punishment battalions" on his personal order (They were unarmed troops used for frontal assaults against strongly manned defences or across ground known to be heavily mined. Immediately to their rear were heavily armed troops of the NKDV whose sole purpose was to shoot those who turned and ran, or who showed signs of stopping or retreating. They also shot those wounded as "Mother Russia" could not afford waste resources healing any political criminals and miscreants).

Now please provide equal examples of such from any western democratic government in terms of horror or scale.

On Pinochet:

"Chilean transition to democracy:
According to the transitional provisions of the 1980 Constitution, a referendum was scheduled for October 5, 1988, to vote on a new eight-year presidential term for Pinochet. Confronted with increasing opposition, notably at the international level, Pinochet legalized political parties in 1987 and called for a plebiscite to determine whether or not he would remain in power until 1997. If the "YES" won, Pinochet would have to implement the dispositions of the 1980 Constitution, mainly the call for general elections, while he would himself remain in power as President. If the "NO" won, Pinochet would remain President for another year, and a joint Presidential and Parliamentary election would be scheduled.

On October 5, 1988, the "NO" won with 55.99% of the votes, against 44.1% of "YES" votes. Pinochet complied, so the ensuing Constitutional process led to presidential and legislative elections the following year.

The opposition and the Pinochet government made several negotiations to amend the Constitution and agreed to 54 modifications. The Amendments changed the way the Constitution would be modified in the future, added restriction of state of emergency dispositions, the affirmation of political pluralism, and enhanced constitutional rights as well as the democratic principle and participation to political life. In July 1989, a referendum on the proposed changes took place, supported by all the parties except the right-wing Avanzada Nacional. The Constitutional changes were approved by 91.25% of the voters.

Patricio Aylwin, a Christian Democrat who had previously opposed Allende, as presidential candidate, won the December 1989 presidential election with 55.17% of the votes, against less than 30% for the right-wing candidate, Hernan Buchi, and a third-party candidate, Francisco Javier Errázuriz, who garnered the remaining 15%. Pinochet thus left the presidency on March 11, 1990 and transferred power to the new democratically elected president."

Subject: RE: BS: Views on Mugabe Zimbabwe
From: Teribus
Date: 12 Apr 08 - 10:34 AM

Looks like Bob doesn't feel confident enough to leave the country to attend this SADC shindig in Lusaka, probably too frightened to even contemplate what might happen in his absence.

Kofi Annan has referred to the grave responsibilities that the SADC leaders have and has hinted that whatever they decide the outcome of their Conference on Zimbabwe will have far reaching consequences not only for Zimbabwe but for Africa as a whole. He's right, if they get this wrong, the attitude of the whole world could turn on Africa to its detriment.

Subject: RE: BS: Views on Mugabe Zimbabwe
From: alanabit
Date: 12 Apr 08 - 11:37 AM

Teribus, if you really believe that the USSR was a Socialist society, I am afraid you have a lot of reading to catch up on. Peter William Sutcliffe killed a dozen women on hearing "voices from God". By the criteria you are trying to apply, that would make him a Christian. Your determination to imply that genuine Communists and Marxists murder and persecute is simply twaddle. You seem to wish to imply that opposing political philosophies to your own are synonymous with murder. That is insulting and wilfully ignorant.
With regard to Pinochet, there are enough documented accounts of his threats to dismiss democratically elected governments. Indeed, he came to power by doing just that. He bullied the governments in his own country to escape prosecution. Had you taken the trouble to talk to a few Chilean refugees, you would know that it was not safe for them to return to their own country for years afterwards. Perhaps you feel that as lefties, they had no right to live anyway. You have still to explain why Augusto Pinochet had any right not to answer for his treason and catalogue of horrendous crimes. Perhaps, as he was not a Marxist/Communist/Socialist, you feel he deserved to be above the law.
It appears you wish to persuade me that whereas "Marxist" dictators are reprehensible murderers, the other sort of dictators are a less reprehensible bunch of thugs. I won't even start on Germany... Have you ever walked around a concentration camp and seen which political opponents of Hitler were the first to be murdered?
I am slightly ashamed of getting into this argument. The very idea that one sort of murderer is "better" than another, or that we can grade beasts by the political clothes they masquerade in, is too ridiculous for a sane man to join in. From this point on, I am going to leave you to mutter to yourself in the corner of the room.

Subject: RE: BS: Views on Mugabe Zimbabwe
From: alanabit
Date: 12 Apr 08 - 11:38 AM

The last sentence of my post was rude. For that I apologise. I stand by every other word I wrote.

Subject: RE: BS: Views on Mugabe Zimbabwe
From: Teribus
Date: 13 Apr 08 - 10:09 AM

"A single death is a tragedy, a million deaths is a statistic" - Joseph Stalin, when told exactly what effect his handling of the Kulaks would have, i.e. the starvation of millions.

Believe me, I am under no illusions of exactly what the USSR was. But their country was named as it was for a reason, to fool the poor sods who had to live under their lash. The inclusion of that word "Socialist" made the dupes believe that they were all struggling on manfully together as equals, the Communist Party ruled the country supposedly as a "workers paradise", yet admittance to the Party was strictly controlled, only those and such as those could be given a place at the trough.

I really do have to laugh at the left when they declare in all seriousness that as each "Socialist" experiment fails, that of course "they weren't real socialists". Never came out with that while the experiment was in progress though.

"You seem to wish to imply that opposing political philosophies to your own are synonymous with murder. That is insulting and wilfully ignorant." - alanabit

I would venture the fact that you have no idea whatsoever as to what my political philosophies are. You make the classic leftist/socialist mistake that as I criticise one I must automatically be in the opposite camp. Well alanabit that does not necessarily follow.

As for this arguement that you are ashamed of being drawn into. It started with a simple comment of mine:

"As to how the man (Mugabe) is acting, how else would you expect a good little marxist to behave."

Which you followed with:

"Like the good guys Teribus... You know, the Pinochets, the Galitieris, the Noriegas, Prince Fahids and all those bastions of anti-Marxist virtue."

Now what was that you said again:
"You seem to wish to imply that opposing political philosophies to your own are synonymous with murder. That is insulting and wilfully ignorant." - alanabit (If the cap fits wear it? Or pot calling kettle black? Either way old-son you started it)

Oh by the bye alanabit - Mugabe describes himself and his regime as "Marxist", the label was not pinned on him by me.

And of course, no you cannot provide examples of western democracies inhumanity that come even remotely close to excesses of Regimes that call themselves "Socialist".

Concentration Camps? I have visited two in Germany, Bergen-Belsen and Dachau, and one in Norway, Grini.

On Pinochet, I will stand by exactly what I have said - "Pinochet actually instigated and oversaw the return to democratic rule in Chile and abidded by the Referendum vote that voted for the end of his rule." - That is a fact and the results of the referendum are known. Now you tell me alanabit has the self-styled "Marxist" Robert Mugabe issued any election results? Has he abidded by the will of his people? The answer in both instances is "No he has not" - unlike Pinochet who did.

With regard to - "Perhaps you feel that as lefties, they had no right to live anyway." - Please do stop putting words into my mouth, or ascribing to me by implication views that I most certainly do not hold.

Subject: RE: BS: Views on Mugabe Zimbabwe
From: alanabit
Date: 13 Apr 08 - 10:48 AM

Have a nice day Teribus. There really is no point in continuing with this.

Subject: RE: BS: Views on Mugabe Zimbabwe
From: GUEST,Fed Up Member
Date: 13 Apr 08 - 11:18 AM

Bloody Thread Drift Rules !!

Subject: RE: BS: Views on Mugabe Zimbabwe
From: pdq
Date: 13 Apr 08 - 11:40 AM

alanabit sez:

"There really is no point in continuing with this."

Then why did you start it!

Subject: RE: BS: Views on Mugabe Zimbabwe
From: Peace
Date: 13 Apr 08 - 12:14 PM

I think the facts are accurate enough (re Stalin. He was plain bad.) However, Pinochet. Nice guy.

Subject: RE: BS: Views on Mugabe Zimbabwe
From: Peace
Date: 13 Apr 08 - 12:17 PM

There's a thing that often happens in arguments (OK, reasoned discourses) where people use an example and then extend it to encompass everything. Old Yiddish expression folks should memorize: "'For example' is NOT proof."

Subject: RE: BS: Views on Mugabe Zimbabwe
From: Peace
Date: 13 Apr 08 - 12:34 PM

I KNOW that was in English. But it came from Yiddish. OY!

Listen up though. Personally, I could give a rat's ass who has what political philosophy. The slaughter of people may result from politics gone wrong, but it's been done in the name of left-wing governments as well as right-wing governments. There are few countries in this world that have not at one time or other engaged in some sort of mass killing, usually in the name of politics (ideology, etc). Just because some sonuvabitch happens to have the adjectives 'communist' or democratic upholder appended to his/her name no more makes them my political friends than owning a dog means I would excuse the things that dog does. 'Them's just words!'

Guys, when people slaughter their citizens or anyone elses citizens, regardless their political posture on a given day, I am of the opinion that THEY--the individuals--should be taken down. Lest anyone misunderstand that phrase, I mean taken to the north forty and shot. We have no worries about destroying mad dogs. I see little difference--other than species.

Please don't defend the military junta in Argentina--no one has but it's gotta be next--, the actions of Pinochet--he's directly related to numerous murders, Stalin, or for that matter GWB or Tony Blair. The fact is that in the clash of political and military foes tens of thousands of civilians are getting killed and maimed. I know the people posting here and you do NOT condone the slaughter of civilians. So let's all back up a bit and give it a real good look.

70,000 deaths, mostly civilian
10 death, each some sort of political leader

From a math point of view it's a no brainer.

Subject: RE: BS: Views on Mugabe Zimbabwe
From: pdq
Date: 13 Apr 08 - 12:42 PM

...the actions of Pinochet--he's directly related to numerous murders, Stalin, or for that matter GWB or Tony Blair."

That is crap. Absolute crap and you know it!

Saddam Hussein had to be taken out and we did it. He killed 1.4 million people, tied in the last list I saw with Pol Pot. Claiming that our leader are as guilty as the thugs we brought down is like saying that cops are as guilty as the perpetrators of drive-by shootings.

Subject: RE: BS: Views on Mugabe Zimbabwe
From: pdq
Date: 13 Apr 08 - 12:58 PM

20th Century Heros of The Left:

Mao (Marxist):    40 million

Stalin (Maxist):    30 million

Lenin (Marxist)    20 million

Hitler (Socialist/Nationalist):    15 million

Pol Pot (Marxist):    1.4 million

Saddam Hussein (warlord/pig):    1.4 million

Fidel Castro (Marxist):   110,000 thousand

Pinochet (Nationalist):   3 thousand

Allende (Marxist):    about the same as Pinochet

Subject: RE: BS: Views on Mugabe Zimbabwe
From: Peace
Date: 13 Apr 08 - 12:59 PM

What was crap about it, pdq? Serious.

Subject: RE: BS: Views on Mugabe Zimbabwe
From: pdq
Date: 13 Apr 08 - 01:06 PM

My post showing the charming leaders of the Left in the 20th Century shows their accomplishements as measured in dead human bodies, but I am sure that was obvious to most.

Subject: RE: BS: Views on Mugabe Zimbabwe
From: Peace
Date: 13 Apr 08 - 01:22 PM

I see. I shall respond in this manner because I'm not quite sure WHAT you are pissed off at.

"Saddam Hussein had to be taken out and we did it. He killed 1.4 million people, tied in the last list I saw with Pol Pot. Claiming that our leader are as guilty as the thugs we brought down is like saying that cops are as guilty as the perpetrators of drive-by shootings."

First, Iraq was never about getting rid of Hussein. However, I agree he should have been made to go by-by. So why not make HIM go by-by? Why the tens of thousands of civilians and soldiers?

Subject: RE: BS: Views on Mugabe Zimbabwe
From: akenaton
Date: 13 Apr 08 - 04:38 PM

Does starving people to death and depriving children of proper medical care through economic santions, not count in your list pdq?

We just love to use economic sanctions to terrorise the populations of other nations who don't toe the "party line", in the hope that this terrorism will bring regime change.
I'm sure that would bring US/UK govts to the top of your list!

Subject: RE: BS: Views on Mugabe Zimbabwe
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 13 Apr 08 - 05:34 PM

Send in Cristina Kirshner....she's the one....oh yeah!!

Subject: RE: BS: Views on Mugabe Zimbabwe
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 13 Apr 08 - 08:24 PM

The guilt of murder isn't about mathematics. Just because only 3,000 or so were killed on September 11 that doesn't make it trivial compared to vastly bigger body counts, like that achieved in the war on Iraq, and the same applies when the Iraq body count is set against even larger hecatombs.

Subject: RE: BS: Views on Mugabe Zimbabwe
From: Peace
Date: 13 Apr 08 - 08:26 PM

Bingo!

Subject: RE: BS: Views on Mugabe Zimbabwe
From: alanabit
Date: 14 Apr 08 - 01:49 AM

Subject: RE: BS: Views on Mugabe Zimbabwe
From: pdq - PM
Date: 13 Apr 08 - 11:40 AM

alanabit sez:

"There really is no point in continuing with this."

Then why did you start it!

Read further back!

Subject: RE: BS: Views on Mugabe Zimbabwe
From: Charley Noble
Date: 14 Apr 08 - 09:18 AM

Wonder if there is an update on Zimbabwe?

Sorry, I din't mean to interupt the discussion.

Charley Noble, in the wilds on Long Island

Subject: RE: BS: Views on Mugabe Zimbabwe
From: Teribus
Date: 14 Apr 08 - 10:30 AM

Well last I heard Charlie was that Bob's mob wanted recounts in around 23 of the constituencies. Now that in itself in anything that was even remotely considered to be a "free and fair" electoral situation wouldn't seem too out of the ordinary, but the following factors have to be taken into account:

- No results have been officially pronounced (The election results for constituencies were displayed outside the polling stations after the local counts but they are not officially recognised)
- Mugabe's Party have had all the ballot boxes under their control now for over two weeks.
- A Zimbabwean Police Inspector has reported seeing Police Recruits filling out ballot papers marked up for ZANU-PF and Robert Mugabe in the week after the election took place.
- The Conference in Lusaka ended up pretty much as predicted - Be patient, wait for the results and abide by the democratic will of the people as expressed by those results.

Mugabe of course will win by a landslide and ZANU-PF will win somewhere around 110 to 114 seats in Parliament after the votes have been recounted.

Subject: RE: BS: Views on Mugabe Zimbabwe
From: Peace
Date: 14 Apr 08 - 10:31 AM

Good assessment, Teribus.

Subject: RE: BS: Views on Mugabe Zimbabwe
From: Teribus
Date: 14 Apr 08 - 10:48 AM

Unfortunately Peace, I am hoping that I will be proved wrong by events - still one can dream - I fear that they may well have Mugabe until he dies. The bun fight after he goes when you only have the ZANU-PF upper-echelons squabbling over the basket-case State that's left will not be an edifying sight.

Subject: RE: BS: Views on Mugabe Zimbabwe
From: Charley Noble
Date: 14 Apr 08 - 01:40 PM

Unfortunately, I can only concur that no one has the will to intervene from the outside, and that it would be foolhardy for poeple within the country to contest whatever messaged results are forthcoming.

But sometimes the "foolhardy" prevails and the tyrant escapes via helocopter to greener pastures.

Charley Noble, in the wilds of Long Island

Subject: RE: BS: Views on Mugabe Zimbabwe
From: alanabit
Date: 14 Apr 08 - 03:38 PM

At last Teribus has posted something I can agree with. Mugabe will cheat and Mugabe will "win". Having announced well in advance that he would not recognise a result if it went against him, that was all one could expect. That makes him a cheat and a dictator - as most of us agree. It does not make him a socialist of any colour though - just a hypocrite.
I wish I knew what might aid the people of Zimbabwe. It is hard to see how any sort of external intervention might. The last thing anyone wants to see is a terrible situation made worse.

Subject: RE: BS: Views on Mugabe Zimbabwe
From: The Sandman
Date: 15 Apr 08 - 06:48 AM

Is it true that Mugabe has a vast estate in Scotland?
Mugabe is friendly with a man called Nicholas Hoogstraten.aka Nicholas Van Hoogsraten,you can judge a man by the company he keeps.

Subject: RE: BS: Views on Mugabe Zimbabwe
From: The Sandman
Date: 15 Apr 08 - 06:50 AM

Nicholas van Hoogstraten (born February 25, 1945) is a controversial wealthy British businessman and property owner. In 1968 he was convicted of paying a gang to attack a business associate.[1] In 2002 he was sentenced to 10 years for the manslaughter of a business rival. The verdict was overturned on appeal but in 2005 he was ordered to pay the victim's family £6 million in a civil case.

Subject: RE: BS: Views on Mugabe Zimbabwe
From: Wolfgang
Date: 16 Apr 08 - 12:33 PM

It is sick, but the fact is that Zimbabwe is a dictatorship for the time being and is likely to remain one until Mugabe dies. I think the opposition should face "defeat" with as much dignity and grace as they can at the moment. It's not fair, but even greater injustices and barbarity will be unleashed if there are massive street protests against the government. The only possible outcome of that could be a military government, which would remove any prospect of real democracy for a generation. (alanabit)

If you have posted that advice as a matter of principle, I strongly disagree here with you, Alan. The Irish consider the 1916, 1798 etc. men as heroes though their action only has led to more deaths. Hungary considers the 1956 rebels heroes though the action as such was futile and only led to more deaths. There are many more examples.

People have in my eyes the right to rebel and protest against evil governments. If they succeed it is called a revolution which may spare human lives in the long run even if the immediate outcome will be more deaths than without the revolution. If they don't succeed there will be more deaths without success except earning the rebels a page in history. One hardly can know in foresight whether a rebellion against an evil regime will have success. The French revolution of 1798 was successful, the German March revolution of 1848 wasn't. Further back, the peasant uprising in the middle age in Germany only led to more deaths. Spartacus too is only responsible for unnecessary deaths? For a just case, rebels have the right on their side in my eyes even if the outcome may not be the success they wish for.

In the concrete case, Zimbabwe, I just don't know enough to be sure whether I agree with your assessment (the only possible outcome are more dead people and a longer time to wait for democracy). In a concrete case, I may well share your opinion.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Views on Mugabe Zimbabwe
From: alanabit
Date: 17 Apr 08 - 06:23 AM

That's reasonable enough Wolfgang. It comes down to a personal decision in the end though. When Mugabe is ousted or pops his clogs, I will be no more sorry to see the back of him than Teribus. I don't like to see people losing their lives though just for the sake of a futile protest. You gave good examples to support your reasoning. You could equally have chosen the Scholls in Munich or the "Edelweisspiraten" in Cologne to support your point. One can only admire the courage of those, who chose to act in that way. However, protest - no matter how heroic - does not always expedite change. Sophie Scholl would certainly have faced imprisonment in the UK had she openly encouraged soldiers to desert in war time. Her actions may even have cost her the ultimate penalty. I can't help feeling that her life was wasted, because once she had acted, death was inevitable, but she was exactly the sort of person, whom Germany needed to rebuild itself after the war.
The other unpalatable fact about revolutions is that the opposition usually feel that the ends justify the means. This means that even when they are successful, they are severely tainted by the time they come to power. I prefer the Portuguese and Spanish models of emerging from dictatorship to democracy. I believe they are also more secure.
I have very mixed feelings when I read of the fate of martyrs. There will be plenty to do after Mugabe has gone. It would not be for the good of the county if many people threw away their lives in a futile protest against such obvious tyranny.

Subject: RE: BS: Views on Mugabe Zimbabwe
From: Wolfgang
Date: 17 Apr 08 - 11:20 AM

Sophie Scholl... was exactly the sort of person, whom Germany needed to rebuild itself after the war.

That's a very good argument, Alan, but: maybe she had more of a positive influence upon post-war Germany dead than she would have had alive. We'll never know. I admire those Germans from that period and I'll never know if I personally would have had their courage.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Views on Mugabe Zimbabwe
From: Teribus
Date: 17 Apr 08 - 12:54 PM

Latest up-date on events:

- Still no results and no-one has bothered to explain how election results can be "verified" if they have never been previously announced.

- An MDC activist has been beaten to death and there has been widespread violence and intimidation of voters in MDC areas (people beaten up, houses burned, crops and food stores destroyed.

- 50 MDC party workers have been arrested for obeying the call to strike last Tuesday

- A large shipment of arms supplied by China has cleared customs in South Africa for delivery to Zimbabwe

- The remaining "white" farmers and their workers have been turfed off their land

- Morgan Tsvangirai is in effective exile as Mugabe and ZANU-PF have accused him of treason and will arrest him if he returns to Zimbabwe.

The UN as usual, hamstrung by their Charter will do nothing.

The current President of South Africa denies that there is any crisis in Zimbabwe and is doing nothing.

The SADC refuses point blank to openly censure or criticise any of their own and hence are doing nothing.

Zimbabwe and it's population in general are well and truly stuffed. So much for the workers paradise, "Animal Farm" is a more apt description of it. They were a damn sight better off under Ian Smith, who by now must be aching to meet up with Lord Carrington and Dr David Owen whenever they reach yon side of the here-after - his first words to them will no doubt be - "I bloody well told you so" - and he would be perfectly justified in saying so.

Subject: RE: BS: Views on Mugabe Zimbabwe
From: Peace
Date: 17 Apr 08 - 12:57 PM

Subject: RE: BS: Views on Mugabe Zimbabwe
From: Peace - PM
Date: 06 Apr 08 - 03:04 PM

He will NOT relinquish power and there will be civil war as a result.



Note the date of that post, svp.

Subject: RE: BS: Views on Mugabe Zimbabwe
From: GUEST,JohnB
Date: 29 Apr 08 - 07:39 AM

This thread slipped off the bottom 11 days ago. Threads on Iraq etc go on and on and on. That speaks volumes.

Subject: RE: BS: Views on Mugabe Zimbabwe
From: GUEST,JohnG
Date: 29 Apr 08 - 09:19 AM

Subject: RE: BS: Views on Mugabe Zimbabwe
From: Teribus
Date: 29 Apr 08 - 12:41 PM

Well the reason threads like this, and ones on Darfur or Africa in general slip by is that it cannot be blamed on George W Bush, or the US Armed Forces.

But nice to see that after the recount of 18 of the 23 disputed seats the MDC has retained its position as having ousted ZANU-PF in the Parliamentary elections.

I wonder how much the fact that bordering African nations refused to unload and allow transit of the arms shipment from China had to do with it.

Still no news on the Presidential election results.

Subject: RE: BS: Views on Mugabe Zimbabwe
From: pdq
Date: 29 Apr 08 - 01:34 PM

"South African dockers are refusing to unload a Chinese cargo ship carrying 77 tonnes of small arms destined for Zimbabwe. The arms, including three million rounds of ammunition suitable for AK47s and 1,500 rocket-propelled grenades, were ordered by the Zimbabwean military at the time of the March 29 election – which Britain and other Western powers have accused Robert Mugabe of trying to rig.

The arms arrived at Durban, South Africa, on Wednesday aboard the Chinese-owned An Yue Jiang and must be taken by road to landlocked Zimbabwe, where the Government has been accused of arming rural militias before a possible run-off vote for the presidency. The opposition Movement for Democratic Change (MDC) has even accused Mr Mugabe's Zanu (PF) of preparing for a 'war' against the people.

January Masilela, the South African Defence Secretary, said yesterday that the shipment had been approved this week by the National Conventional Arms Control Committee (NCACC), which he chairs. 'This is a normal transaction between two sovereign states and we don't have to interfere,' he said.

But opposition parties slammed the decision to grant the transit permit and the country's main transport union said that its members would refuse to unload the cargo.

"We do not believe it will be in the interest of the Zimbabwean people in general if South Africa is seen to be a conduit of arms and ammunition into Zimbabwe at a time when the situation could be described as quite volatile, 'said Randall Howard, a spokesman for the South African Transport and Allied Workers Union (SATAWU). 'As far as we are concerned the containers will not be offloaded'.

Rafeek Shah, defence spokesman for the Democratic Alliance, the main South African opposition party, added: 'The world's astonishment at President Mbeki's political defence of Robert Mugabe will likely turn into outright anger as we are now not only denying the existence of a crisis in Zimbabwe, but also actively facilitating the arming of an increasingly despotic and desperate'"

Subject: RE: BS: Views on Mugabe Zimbabwe
From: GUEST,Chief Chaos
Date: 29 Apr 08 - 05:22 PM

The last word on the arms shipment is that the ship "may" be returning home.

As for why this thread slipped off..
I agree with Teribus, the U.S. can't be blamed (except for perhaps failing to act which will certainly follow here if a civil war erupts).

Subject: RE: BS: Views on Mugabe Zimbabwe
From: pdq
Date: 29 Apr 08 - 05:26 PM

It would be so sad if the ship sank on the way back to China, wouldn't it?

Subject: RE: BS: Views on Mugabe Zimbabwe
From: GUEST,Chief Chaos
Date: 29 Apr 08 - 06:16 PM

It's just too bad the shipment wasn't waylaid by "pirates" who could destroy the weapons before they're just sold to someone else.

Subject: RE: BS: Views on Mugabe Zimbabwe
From: Charley Noble
Date: 29 Apr 08 - 09:27 PM

Well, things may work out in Zimbabwe after all. It's all a chess game, and at some point some dictators elect to board their private plane and migrate to more friendly places.

The two factions that are in opposition to Mugabe have agreed to work jointly, and the international pressure is having some positive impact.

The big question is whether there is a general or two with enough courage to tell Mugabe it's time to go.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Views on Mugabe Zimbabwe
From: GUEST,Layla
Date: 11 Sep 08 - 05:04 PM

Deal done tonight, a new power sharing government could be set up in Rhodesia shortly.

Subject: RE: BS: Views on Mugabe Zimbabwe
From: pdq
Date: 11 Sep 08 - 06:40 PM

Didn't he say that he was going to clear-cut the trees off his country because he wanted to grow more food?

Subject: RE: BS: Views on Mugabe Zimbabwe
From: Charley Noble
Date: 11 Sep 08 - 08:38 PM

My understanding of the "deal" is that Morgan Tsvangirai will be Prime Minister and Mugabe would be a figurehead President:

"The main opposition leader, Morgan Tsvangirai, was the first to announce the deal between Mr Mugabe's Zanu-PF party and his own Movement for Democratic Change as he left the talks in Harare. However there was no immediate comment from Mr Mugabe or Zanu-PF spokesmen."

President Mbeki from South Africa evidently brokered the deal.

Hopefully the Zimbabwe people will finally get a chance to put their country back together again.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Views on Mugabe Zimbabwe
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 12 Sep 08 - 02:50 PM

Notwithstanding your use of the name Rhodesia reflects your bias, there is no such place any more, guestLayla.

Subject: RE: BS: Views on Mugabe Zimbabwe
From: GUEST,Dandy in Aspic
Date: 21 Sep 08 - 03:06 AM

I see strange goings on in Rhodesia this fine morning.

Isn't it somewhat odd how all of a sudden the Thabo Mbeki supporters here seem to lost their voice ?

So what about the man they hailed a hero only a few weeks ago ?

A corruption case involving Jacob Zuma has lead to his resignation.

Dandy in Aspic

Subject: RE: BS: Views on Mugabe Zimbabwe
From: Charley Noble
Date: 21 Sep 08 - 11:49 AM

Dandy-

I was puzzled about your post.

"I see strange goings on in Rhodesia this fine morning."

Could you elaborate? The rest of your post refers to South Africa.

"A corruption case involving Jacob Zuma has lead to HIS resignation."

"HIS" is a reference to Mbeki, not to Zuma. Evidently Zuma's corruption case has recently been dropped.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Views on Mugabe Zimbabwe
From: GUEST, Dandy in Aspic
Date: 21 Sep 08 - 04:04 PM

Tonight's news "He gone bye bye"

Dandy in Aspic

Subject: RE: BS: Views on Mugabe Zimbabwe
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 21 Sep 08 - 05:11 PM

Some significant points have been overlooked in this thread. To deal with a trivial one first, Teribus has been selective in quoting Mugabe's assessment of himself as a Marxist. Mugabe always described himself as a "Catholic Marxist." Maybe it just didn't suit Teribus's agenda to call Mugabe "a good little Christian." (Of course, I wouldn't be surprised if Mugabe ditched the Catholicism, as well as the Marxism, somewhere along with the way.)

More important is that for several years Mugabe has not been effectively in control of Zimbabwe. The country is run by a junta of generals and security chiefs, and unlike Mugabe they have little prospect of negotiating a soft landing for themselves. For this reason Alanabit's strategy of waiting for nature to take its course offers a less certain outcome than in some other instances.

For this reason too, the new deal is not worth the paper it's written on. The very fact that it was "brokered" by Mbeki speaks volumes. Mbeki, who was fatally wounded in terms of domestic politics and who is regarded on the world stage as little better than an imbecile (because of his crackpot theories about AIDS and his blind faith in Comrade Mugabe), has always adopted a less-than-evenhanded "over my dead body" stance to the prospect of Tsvangirai getting his hands on power. This did indeed border on insanity because regardless of whatever shortcomings Tsvangirai might have, the regime which Mugabe fronts has wreaked havoc on South Africa's economony and has threatened to destabilise the whole region.

In short I see little hope for Zimbabwe unless a deal is struck with the Zanu-PF monsters who run the show.

Subject: RE: BS: Views on Mugabe Zimbabwe
From: GUEST,Dandy in Aspic
Date: 22 Sep 08 - 02:04 AM

Yet again we see the failure of an African state to provide responsible leadership and care for it's people.

Of course there is always plan B.

Newspaper and television ad campaign aimed at the UK telling us to feed these people while their governments buy arms and military equipment, Ummmm, think I remember this happening once or twice before.


Dandy in Aspic

Subject: RE: BS: Views on Mugabe Zimbabwe
From: Teribus
Date: 22 Sep 08 - 11:49 AM

"To deal with a trivial one first, Teribus has been selective in quoting Mugabe's assessment of himself as a Marxist. Mugabe always described himself as a "Catholic Marxist." Maybe it just didn't suit Teribus's agenda to call Mugabe "a good little Christian." - Peter K

Nothing "selective" about it Peter, merely observation, I couldn't give a damn for how Bob describes himself - Judge men by what they do - As President of Zimbabwe Mugabe sure as hell ain't running along "Christian" lines, although the "loaves and fishes" stunt would stand him in good sted - so taking a look at Zimbabwe I see a country that used to enjoy all the benefits of prosperity, a country that could look forward to a bright future, I saw that country with all its propects flushed down the pan in accordance with the practice and implementation of all the tenets of Marxist ideological twaddle. As for "agendas"?? I don't know about you, I don't have one.

Subject: RE: BS: Views on Mugabe Zimbabwe
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 25 Sep 08 - 11:27 AM

If we judge Mugabe by what he does, then he is not a Christian and he's not a Marxist. I'm heartened that Teribus can agree with me about something at last.

Subject: RE: BS: Views on Mugabe Zimbabwe
From: Teribus
Date: 25 Sep 08 - 11:37 AM

Don't get your hopes up too high Peter, Mugabe has as much right to call himself a Marxist as anyone else running around using the label, as all attempts at implementing the ideology have so far has only ever met with failure, and Mugabe has been failing in spectacular style since 1980.

Subject: RE: BS: Views on Mugabe Zimbabwe
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 26 Sep 08 - 04:49 AM

Likewise he is entitled to cite his catholic faith (and education) as he has done many times. Which may explain why he sometimes behaves more like a Christian than a Marxist. But by all means continue to prattle on about his "Marixsm" since that is what suits your (non-existant, LOL) agenda.

---

Oh... guess who that was, posting from Republika Srpska and forgetting to sign in....

Subject: RE: BS: Views on Mugabe Zimbabwe
From: GUEST,Babuska
Date: 28 Feb 09 - 04:40 AM

May I be the first to wish Robert a happy birthday. Today he celebrates 85th birthday.

Zimbabwe's sole ruler for nearly three decades,is doing a sterling job dealing with the economic and political turmoil caused by the west that have forced him into a unity government with the opposition.

On Saturday, his ZANU-PF party has -- as it has done over the years -- organised a rally and party for thousands of people to mark his birthday. He was born on February 21 in 1924.

Feted as a champion of democracy and a hero of liberation.Zimbabwe's problems are a result of sabotage by Western and domestic opponents trying to oust him over his nationalist policies.

I respect the man and feel some of the comments above are unfair.

Subject: RE: BS: Views on Mugabe Zimbabwe
From: alanabit
Date: 28 Feb 09 - 02:08 PM

While I am not going to publicly wish that Mugabe chokes on his dinner, I will not mourn for very long if that happens. My own personal sympathies - like those of most other posters here - lie with the sick, starving and impoverished, who would benefit from a completely new government. I hope that comes about both peaceably and soon.

Subject: RE: BS: Views on Mugabe Zimbabwe
From: Leadfingers
Date: 28 Feb 09 - 05:35 PM

I have a very strong feeling that Babuska is stirring !!

Subject: RE: BS: Views on Mugabe Zimbabwe
From: Leadfingers
Date: 28 Feb 09 - 05:35 PM

So 100 !!