Origins: Lloyd's 'Do Me Ama'

Subject: Origins?: Lloyd's 'Do Me Ama'
From: GUEST,Lighter
Date: 20 Apr 08 - 06:27 PM

So far as I know, Bert Lloyd never took credit for editing and revising his version of the sailor song, "Do Me Ama" (in Digitrad under "Dumiama...").

I suspect however, that he was responsible for it in its current form. Does anyone have any information?

Subject: RE: Origins: Lloyd's 'Do Me Ama'
From: Folkiedave
Date: 20 Apr 08 - 07:27 PM

As far as I am aware Bert was circumspect about what he altered or put together.

But since folk songs are subject to change all the time - does it really matter? All sorts of people do it, not just Bert. That's what some folk singers do.

What would have mattered was if he had copywrited it. But he didn't. If you want to alter it before singing it, go back to what you might think is an original, make up a new verse or an ending or a beginning, re-write the story or turn it upside down, go ahead. We might get a great new song out of it.

Subject: RE: Origins: Lloyd's 'Do Me Ama'
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 20 Apr 08 - 08:59 PM

The problem with that is that Bert Lloyd had (and cultivated) a considerable reputation as a serious scholar; as a result, people took it on trust that material he came up with was genuinely traditional.

Frequently this wasn't the case. There is a big difference between the 'folk process' changes (if we have to use that much abused, and much misunderstood, term) made by singers from within a living tradition, and what are essentially 'editorial' alterations made by people from outside it. Bert's interventions, although they were usually eminently successful from an artistic point of view, and informed by a genuine and extensive knowledge of traditional idiom, were nevertheless often just as bogus as the regularly decried editorial changes made by earlier collectors like Sharp and Baring-Gould.

Lloyd arrogated to himself the privileges of the traditional singer while expecting also those of the academic scholar. The two are rarely compatible, as the former is expected to introduce variation while the latter is expected to be scrupulously honest about his or her sources and to present them exactly as found; or, failing that, to be specific about any editorial interventions.

It appears that Lloyd wasn't above inventing a fictional 'source' in order to pretend that one of his re-castings of a song was a genuine product of oral tradition. His version of 'Reynardine' is a case in point; and it may not be irrelevant that, when a mutual friend of Dave's and mine made enquiries at PRS about publishing a recorded arrangement of that song, Lloyd's name was on the copyright file.

Of course, none of this 'matters' to people who just want raw (and out of copyright) material; people who want to understand where a song has been, and what has happened to it along the way, have a very different attitude. That's what [Jonathan] Lighter (who has pretty impressive academic credentials, and isn't asking an idle question) means here, I think.

Subject: RE: Origins: Lloyd's 'Do Me Ama'
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Apr 08 - 02:17 AM

I agree with Malcolm.
Bert made numerous claims about a number of the songs he edited, in some cases claiming them to be 'typically English', when in fact he had taken them from say, the Fowke collection and adapted them.
Confusing this with the 'folk process', only adds more fog to what is an already murky subject.
All this didn't make him any less of a pleasure to listen to.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Origins: Lloyd's 'Do Me Ama'
From: GUEST,doc.tom
Date: 21 Apr 08 - 04:12 AM

Well said, Douglas & Jim.
For an analysis of Lloyd's Reynardine, see Folklore (vol.117 if memory serves)and what about the rewrite that produced the most erroneous recording credits of all, his creation of The Recruited Collier.
It's not that what he did was wrong - his (re)creations were, in my opinion, brilliant - it's exactly what Malcolm says, it's the potential deceit and the perpetuated ignorance!
Tom

Subject: RE: Origins: Lloyd's 'Do Me Ama'
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 21 Apr 08 - 07:01 AM

Where did the Blackleg Miner really come from?

Subject: RE: Origins: Lloyd's 'Do Me Ama'
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 21 Apr 08 - 07:31 AM

This from Malcolm Douglass in an earlier thread:

As Swan mentioned, this song has -unless new information has come to light- been found only once in tradition as such, sung by W. Sampey of Bishop Aukland in County Durham (18th. November 1949). A.L. Lloyd printed it in the first edition of his book Come All Ye Bold Miners (Lawrence and Wishart, 1952) and it took the fancy of a great many Revival singers, among them Ewan MacColl and (much) later, Christie Moore. They are all, whether they know it or not, singing Mr. Sampey's song. Lloyd gave a text in more-or-less standard English, but didn't indicate whether or not this was exactly as sung. Some years later, he printed another set (Folk Song in England, Lawrence and Wishart, 1967) with modified, dialectal text and a slightly variant tune (this is the one quoted in the DT); typically, the only provenance he gave for it was a reference to his earlier book. Whence the variations is a mystery. In his notes to the second edition of CAYBM (1978) he remarks that the song has become popular and acquired melodic variants since his publication of it; whether these should be considered traditional in the strict sense is hard to say; it is not impossible that the song may have persisted elsewhere than just in Mr. Sampey's repertoire, though on balance it does seem most likely that Lloyd was the significant agent of transmission. Lloyd also refers to what may be a variation or parody of it, The Yahie Miners, noted by George Corson in Glace Bay, Nova Scotia, and published in Coal Dust on the Fiddle (Philadelphia, 1943). I haven't seen that book, so I don't know how close it may or may not be to the Durham song.

Cheers

Les

Subject: RE: Origins: Lloyd's 'Do Me Ama'
From: GUEST
Date: 21 Apr 08 - 11:07 AM

For information:-
COAL DUST ON THE FIDDLE pp334-5

THE YAHIE MINERS (no tune given)

Text contributed by Stuart McCawley, Glace Bay, Nova Scotia. "This 'come all ye' is sixty years old and still sung in District 26 (Nova Scotia)" - McCawley

Early in the month of May when all the ice is gone away
The Yahies they come down to work
With their white bags and dirty shirt,
The dirty Yahie miners.

Chorus.
        Bonnie boys, oh won't you gang!
        Bonnie boys, oh won't you gang!
        Bonnie boys, oh won't you gang!
        To beat the Yahie miners.

They take their picks and they go down
A-digging coal on underground,
For board and lodgings can't be found,
For dirty Yahie miners.

Into Mitchel's they do deal,
Nothing there but Injun meal,
Sour molasses will make them squeal,
The dirty Yahie miners.

Join the Union right away,
Don't you wait till after pay,
Join the Union right away,
You dirty Yahie miners.

Mrs. McNab she keeps a hall
Where the Yahies they do call,
You'll see them flock around the hall,
The dirty Yahie miners.

Don't go near MacDonald's door,
Else the bully will have you sure,
For he goes round from door to door,
Converting Yahie miners.

Jimmie Brimick he jumped in
Caught MacKeigan by the chin,
"Give me Maggie though she's thin
For I'm no Yahie miner."

From Ricky Boston they do come,
The damnedest Yahies ever found,
Around the office they do crowd
The dirty Yahie miners.

The Lorway road it is now clear,
There are no Yahies on the beer,
The reason why they are not here,
They're frightened by the miners.

Subject: RE: Origins: Lloyd's 'Do Me Ama'
From: meself
Date: 21 Apr 08 - 12:23 PM

Unnamed GUEST: If you come back, can you respond to this query I originally put on the newer 'Blackleg Miner' thread:

[GUEST] - Since I'm back in the bush and don't have access to the book, could you tell me what the term 'Yahie' is supposed to mean?

This song is similar to if not a variant of a song I mentioned on another thread recently, 'Dirty Yankee Miners'. It is one my father, from Sydney CB, used to sing. He said that it refered to Newfoundlanders who were brought from the Yankee Mine in Nfld as strike-breakers. I heard a bit of it sung once or twice as 'Dirty Newfoundlanders'.

The Cape Breton singer and folklorist Ronnie MacEachern used to sing a few of the same verses to Mussels in the Corner - but he too used a term more like 'Yahie' then Yankee. His explanation was it came from a Gaelic expression having to do with 'home' or 'going home' - which the miners in question were - understandably! - always talking about. However, Ronnie is not a Gaelic-speaker, and I was always a little skeptical of his explanation. Now I'm curious to figure out if one term was a corruption of the other, and if so, which, or if their similarity is coincidental.

Subject: RE: Origins: Lloyd's 'Do Me Ama'
From: Folkiedave
Date: 21 Apr 08 - 12:57 PM

I hadn't realised that Bert had copywrited Reynardine and I wouldn't defend Bert on that score.

The article is here.

Nor would I defend his change story to the "Recruited Collier" the story of which is also in that article.

There's a discussion of Bert's singing style here. and a lot of links to other articles including David Gregory's stuff here.

I had all this stuff to hand because I did a radio programme about him on Sheffield Live to coincide with the centenary February 29th which happened to be a Friday and so fitted well with the show. There was a discussion with Martin Carthy about this issue too on my programme.

And to give both sides of the story - Shirley Collins when interviewed by Martin Graebe (at Cheltenham Festival this year) described him (and Ewan) as "charlatans" ending with "Fuck 'Em".

Subject: RE: Origins: Lloyd's 'Do Me Ama'
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 21 Apr 08 - 01:24 PM

I guess that some of us would want to say something like:

"We recognise the contribution made by Bert (and Ewan) but we would like to know what was collected and what was added on, wouldn't we?

Subject: RE: Origins: Lloyd's 'Do Me Ama'
From: Leadfingers
Date: 21 Apr 08 - 02:20 PM

we are doing Do Me Ama on Saturday - Saw ths thread and was hopeful of a bit more information !!

Subject: RE: Origins: Lloyd's 'Do Me Ama'
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Apr 08 - 02:24 PM

It's somehow comforting to learn that Shirley Collins is still the vituperative ***** she always has been.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Origins: Lloyd's 'Do Me Ama'
From: GUEST,Lighter
Date: 21 Apr 08 - 09:20 PM

Leadfingers: Malcolm made important additional observations on a different thread some years ago: http://www.mudcat.org/thread.cfm?threadid=18362.

To enlarge upon those: Lloyd recorded "Do Me Ama" twice about 45-50 years ago, first on (what is now) the CD "Sailor's Songs & Sea Shanties," and then on "Blow, Boys, Blow," also on CD. I still think these albums are among the very best revival sea-song recordings in terms of spirit and respect for the nature of the old music. (No electric guitars, jazz riffs, or wa-wa pedals, for example.)

Lloyd doesn't identify a traditional source either in his notes or in his book, though he mentions "Do Me Ama" there as well.

It looks as though his chief inspiration was Capt. Whall's "Do Me Ama," printed in 1910. Whall says he learned all his sea songs "worthy of the name" between 1861 and '72.

Lloyd's melody is a more tuneful version of Whall's. Lloyd's song paraphrases about half of Whall's text and add two very funny stanzas not in the original, those that begin,

"The squire came by, he was humming a song,
A-thinkin' to himself that it would not be long."

And

"And now, says old Jack, you'll forgive me I pray.
I'll steal out very quiet at the dawn of the day."

The uniqueness of Whall's report of "Do Me Ama" from around 1870 suggests that it was not a very well known song. Lloyd tells the same story to a smoother tune with more concise lyrics and two important new incidents - the squire's disappointment and the lady's happiness. These are crucial to the the song as a fully told tale.

Lloyd's version makes a better song than Whall's and seems not to correspond closely to any known broadside (though some other broadside songs do present comparable elements). But credit for the overall excellence of "Do Me Ama" today seems to belong to Bert Lloyd (journalist, researcher, and editor) rather than to any 19th C. packet rats. Would it were otherwise!

Les is dead-on about the important issues involved in Lloyd's emendations, namely genuine tradition and scholarly integrity. To understand the nature of trad music correctly, we need both.

Subject: RE: Origins: Lloyd's 'Do Me Ama'
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 22 Apr 08 - 03:27 AM

Lighter,

you certainly have supplied some detailed and revealing information.

I remember borrowing "Sailor's Songs & Sea Shanties," around 1965 atruly brilliant collection of songs. I found it hard to learn songs from Bert's singing because it was so odd but I enjoyed it as many did.

I guess I feel it simply isn't right to change songs so radically without saying so. Since Bert and others had a particular political pitch, which many followed, it makes genuine understanding all the more troubled.

Subject: RE: Origins: Lloyd's 'Do Me Ama'
From: GUEST,doc.tom
Date: 22 Apr 08 - 05:26 AM

Didn't Bert use an American source for Bonny Black Hare, too?
Tom

Subject: RE: Origins: Lloyd's 'Do Me Ama'
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 22 Apr 08 - 05:41 AM

Oh look - it's another thread about Bert Lloyd! I've been nattering on the other one - I see all the clever heads are over here!

I agree that one of the problems about the "remade" songs is that they are often made in the image of Lloyd's personal politics. It's about as academically dodgy as it's possible to be: start with a thesis, and find sources that back up your thesis. And if the sources don't quite support your thesis, change them. Or just make them up. I'm sure it seemed like a good idea at the time...

Re Shirley Collins at Cheltenham: she was responding to particularly disparaging reviews given to her by MacColl and Lloyd, and questioning their legitimacy as critics based on the fact that they were both, in her opinion, charlatans. This is where her dismissive expletive came from.

Subject: RE: Origins: Lloyd's 'Do Me Ama'
From: Leadfingers
Date: 22 Apr 08 - 08:10 AM

Lighter - Thanks for that info !!

Subject: RE: Origins: Lloyd's 'Do Me Ama'
From: Bryn Pugh
Date: 22 Apr 08 - 10:55 AM

I don't want to put the cat (!) among the pigeons, for a change ; but, does the fact that A.L. Lloyd (whom I never met, and never had the privilege of hearing live, to my eternal regret) sang in a

pseudo-Australian accent in "The Overlander" make it any less valid ?

Does it really matter ?

My bezzie mate, Leigh, (a far better guitarist than I shall ever be) once criticised my playing of Anji/Angie/Angi when I admitted I could only get seven out of the eight notes in the contrapuntal 'bass run' -

"It isn't "right"'

My response was - Davy Graham ; Bert Jansch ; that abortion by Paul Simon - which is the right one ?

By analogy - shall we ever know which songs Lloyd "doctored" and which were original ?

Does it matter, anyway ?

As for Shirley Collins's comment (never heard her live either, and I'm not crying over it, believe me) - whan I first played 'Folk Roots, New Routes' at home, shortly after it was first released on vinyl, my

Mother said "For Christ's sake turn that whining bitch off".

Subject: RE: Origins: Lloyd's 'Do Me Ama'
From: GUEST,Lighter
Date: 22 Apr 08 - 12:06 PM

The current "Bertsongs" thread addresses some of Bryn's questions. Essentially, facts matter more than musical tastes.

Subject: RE: Origins: Lloyd's 'Do Me Ama'
From: MartinRyan
Date: 22 Apr 08 - 12:15 PM

Essentially, facts matter more than musical tastes

Only when facts are at issue! Taste is about judgement of artistic merit - and "facts" in the sense we've been using the term here, are largely irrelevant to that - if not totally so.

Regards

Subject: RE: Origins: Lloyd's 'Do Me Ama'
From: Folkiedave
Date: 22 Apr 08 - 12:47 PM

Didn't Bert use an American source for Bonny Black Hare, too?

Yes, it was Ralph Rinzler. Not a secret as far as I know!

And as a plug for the programme I shall be interviewing Brian Peters on Friday's programme about his new record of Child Ballads.

We may just discuss this!!

(There is a link to a discussion of Bert's singing style (Australian) in those links I gave earlier).

Subject: RE: Origins: Lloyd's 'Do Me Ama'
From: The Sandman
Date: 22 Apr 08 - 12:50 PM

Subject: RE: Origins: Lloyd's 'Do Me Ama'
From: Jim Carroll - PM
Date: 21 Apr 08 - 02:24 PM

It's somehow comforting to learn that Shirley Collins is still the vituperative ***** she always has been.
Jim Carroll.
on the occasions I have met Shirley Collins,I found her to be a charming person.
in fact I found her easier to get on with than Ewan.
that doesnt lessen either Ewans or Berts contribution to the folk revival.
I think this thread is silly.
to me it matters little whether Bert rewrote DO ME AMMA,Ising the song because its a fine song.Iam also pretty sure Bob Roberts rewrote Gamekeepers lie sleeping,but whether his version is traditional or not,Ising it because it is the best version.
judge songs on merit not on whether they are traditional.Dick Miles

Subject: RE: Origins: Lloyd's 'Do Me Ama'
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Apr 08 - 01:40 PM

"I think this thread is silly."
Cap'n
I really think you need to get your head round the fact that, while you seem quite happy to sing away to your heart's content, some of us are interested in lifting the corner to find out what's underneath - once again - please live and let live.
I've met Shirley Collins on a number of occasions and also found her quite pleasant - my response is to her public pronouncements on her fallow artists.
If it comes to choosing between MacColl and Lloyd's contribution to folk-song and being the singer who popularised the little-girl head-voice in the revival, sorry, no competition.
jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Origins: Lloyd's 'Do Me Ama'
From: GUEST,Lighter
Date: 22 Apr 08 - 01:47 PM

From "A History of Folksong," copyright 2105:

"The contribution of the Mudcat Critics of ca2008 was to show that many of the best and most popular British and American folksongs of the latter 20th Century were extensively revised by the artists who recorded them, even though the songs were presented as authentic ancient documents. The changes were primarily cosmetic, but like the more drastic alterations made by Percy, Baring-Gould, Sharp, and others, they misled students into thinking that the "folk" of earlier centuries had tastes in song that were nearly indistinguishable from their own. Even more regrettable is that certain scholars too were not above silently "fixing up" songs and passing them off as unaltered historical artifacts. Early writers on the subject like Sir Walter Scott, of course, had done the same thing, but it was dismaying to see that even after 150 years, folksong commentators had not yet given up his bad - and highly misleading - habits."

Subject: RE: Origins: Lloyd's 'Do Me Ama'
From: The Sandman
Date: 22 Apr 08 - 01:57 PM

I think this thread is silly."
Cap'n
I really think you need to get your head round the fact that, while you seem quite happy to sing away to your heart's content, some of us are interested in lifting the corner to find out what's underneath - once again - please live and let live.
I've met Shirley Collins on a number of occasions and also found her quite pleasant - my response is to her public pronouncements on her fallow artists.
If it comes to choosing between MacColl and Lloyd's contribution to folk-song and being the singer who popularised the little-girl head-voice in the revival, sorry, no competition.
jim Carroll
precisely.
that is why I[unlike you] refuse to make public pronouncements upon fellow artists

Subject: RE: Origins: Lloyd's 'Do Me Ama'
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Apr 08 - 02:25 PM

Cap'n,
not an artist, merely an observer
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Origins: Lloyd's 'Do Me Ama'
From: GUEST,Steve Gardham
Date: 22 Apr 08 - 06:01 PM

To return to the thread title, someone suggested that the song was scarce.Under that title perhaps, but Roud 511,Laws K40, master title, Jack the Jolly Tar, exists on numerous broadsides under various titles, and if we are to go by the widely differing versions in many publications, it was once very popular in oral tradition. Bert would have had a whole host of sources to cobble his version from, e.g., Sharp has at least 4 versions from this country. I think Peter Bellamy also rewrote it and called it 'Yarmouth Town'. It's also quite popular in North america.

Subject: RE: Origins: Lloyd's 'Do Me Ama'
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 22 Apr 08 - 06:45 PM

Up to your rigs

Subject: RE: Origins: Lloyd's 'Do Me Ama'
From: Folkiedave
Date: 22 Apr 08 - 06:47 PM

Down to your jigs

Subject: RE: Origins: Lloyd's 'Do Me Ama'
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 22 Apr 08 - 06:51 PM

I think I hear Jon Boden...

Subject: RE: Origins: Lloyd's 'Do Me Ama'
From: Herga Kitty
Date: 22 Apr 08 - 07:05 PM

Ok, I know this is perpetuating the thread drift, but deriding Shirley Collins as "the singer who popularised the little-girl head-voice in the revival", is really unfair. Shirley really was a folksinger.

Kitty

Subject: RE: Origins: Lloyd's 'Do Me Ama'
From: GUEST,Dave MacKenzie
Date: 22 Apr 08 - 08:01 PM

Going back to the term "yahie" miners, it could come from the Gaelic. the Gaelic for home is dachaigh (pronounced dachay), and seeing it's feminine, the initial consonant is frequently modified as in the well known song and waltz, "Mo Dhachaigh" (my home, pronounced mo ghachay, with the gh being a voiced version of the sound in Scottish loch).

I could be wrong, but I don't think Pete Bellamy wrote "Yarmouth Town", though it's definitely related.

As for Bert's rewrites, they're a lot more singable than a lot of other peoples versions, especially where he's anglicising Scotish sources - they don't grate like practically everybody elses, and I don't know any traditional singers who didn't edit their sources (outside the Faeroes that is). Is this a living tradition or a museum?

Subject: RE: Origins: Lloyd's 'Do Me Ama'
From: GUEST
Date: 22 Apr 08 - 09:35 PM

'Going back to the term "yahie" miners ... '

Thanks, Dave. It could be, then, that 'yahie' was a non-Gaelic-speaker's attempt to pronounce 'dhachaigh', or an Anglophone writer's attempt to put the word he heard onto the page, or both.

Or is it possible that 'yahie' is a Gael's corruption of 'Yankee'?

Subject: RE: Origins: Lloyd's 'Do Me Ama'
From: GUEST,meself
Date: 22 Apr 08 - 09:36 PM

(That was me - meself).

Subject: RE: Origins: Lloyd's 'Do Me Ama'
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Apr 08 - 03:04 AM

"Is this a living tradition or a museum?"
Neither - unfortunately.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Origins: Lloyd's 'Do Me Ama'
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Apr 08 - 03:22 AM

Sorry Kitty,
I know this isn't the place to discuss Shirley Collins' singing. I was responding to her quoted "charlatans" ending with "Fuck 'Em".. remark, which I found, spiteful, as she often is when discussing the revival.
The head-voice thing, (her gift to the revival) I believe, deserves discussing, whether she's a folk singer or not (which also is worthy of discussion).
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Origins: Lloyd's 'Do Me Ama'
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 23 Apr 08 - 03:49 AM

Shirley wasn't being spiteful - she was describing the rather shrewish critique of her music that came from either MacColl or Lloyd (I remember a phrase along the lines of "the bucolic cow of the folk world"). One got the impression that they were trying to cut a silly little girl down to size. She regards them as two people who had completely invented themselves and their music (hence "charlatans"), and then were acting as arbiters over people like her, whose music, arguably, had a more organic source. In context, her dismissive expletive seemed entirely appropriate - and judging by the laughter and applause it was greeted with, the audience concurred.

Subject: RE: Origins: Lloyd's 'Do Me Ama'
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 23 Apr 08 - 04:10 AM

Ruth,

It was my impression that Bert did rather more humour than Ewan. I remember Ewan writing something about the EFDSS being run by "Old women of both sexes". Perhaps the above quote was fro Ewan.

Subject: RE: Origins: Lloyd's 'Do Me Ama'
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 23 Apr 08 - 04:24 AM

I recorded the interview, Les - i can listen later and find out.

Subject: RE: Origins: Lloyd's 'Do Me Ama'
From: BB
Date: 23 Apr 08 - 05:06 PM

Les & Dave - that's the rigs and jigs of London Town, isn't it?

Barbara

Subject: RE: Origins: Lloyd's 'Do Me Ama'
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 23 Apr 08 - 05:17 PM

Up a London City on a one fine day
And down Cheapside I made my way

...................

Up to the rigs, down to the jigs, up to the rigs of London Town

Subject: RE: Origins: Lloyd's 'Do Me Ama'
From: GUEST,Steve Gardham
Date: 23 Apr 08 - 05:27 PM

I must retract an earlier comment I made in this thread. I suggested that Peter Bellamy may have written/rewritten his 'Yarmouth Town' song on the same theme -- pull the string etc. I have been reliably informed that he definitely didn't do either. Anyone know what Peter's source was for the song? It appeared on his album 'Mainly Norfolk' 1968 and later 1971 on the album 'Won't you go my way?'

Humble apologies for the error. It was actually a compliment. It's a cracking song, possibly even eclipsing 'Do Me Ama'.

Subject: RE: Origins: Lloyd's 'Do Me Ama'
From: The Sandman
Date: 23 Apr 08 - 05:31 PM

they are both good,I prefer Do Me Ama.

Subject: RE: Origins: Lloyd's 'Do Me Ama'
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 24 Apr 08 - 02:29 AM

Peter said that 'Yarmouth Town' was the first song he ever 'collected', and that he got it from Peter Bullen (of Norwich?) who he knew in his Norfolk days. Bullen said that he'd learned it from his grandfather. This may be so, or it may not: it is probably impossible to find out now. Bellamy also got 'Fakenham Fair' from him, it seems.

There is some brief discussion of this in thread Lyr Req: Yarmouth town (2001, revived in 2007). A more extensive discussion took place on the Ballad-L list in 2005, which you must have forgotten about, Steve: it was you who started it. You were not the only one who suspected that all might not be what it seemed; I think that I remained agnostic on the subject, though I'm inclined to think it a quite recent composition, whoever was actually responsible for it.

Subject: RE: Origins: Lloyd's 'Do Me Ama'
From: Snuffy
Date: 24 Apr 08 - 09:22 AM

MacColl was not the first to use "Old women of both sexes". The phrase occurs nearly 300 years earlier in Tristram Shandy

Subject: RE: Origins: Lloyd's 'Do Me Ama'
From: GUEST,Steve Gardham
Date: 24 Apr 08 - 12:55 PM

Malcolm,
Ta. Senility creeping in again. My god I wish I had your memory!
The apology to Peter and his still stands. I tried asking Heather but her senility is as bad as mine!

Subject: RE: Origins: Lloyd's 'Do Me Ama'
From: The Sandman
Date: 24 Apr 08 - 01:10 PM

Is Fakenham Fair a fake?.
I suppose either Anthea or Jenny Bellamy,might know whether Peterdid genuinely collect these from anyone.

Subject: RE: Origins: Lloyd's 'Do Me Ama'
From: GUEST,Steve Gardham
Date: 24 Apr 08 - 02:36 PM

As far as Jenny is concerned he collected them both, and that's good enough for me. There's plenty of evidence that source singers both write and rewrite songs, sometimes much for the better. I'm pretty certain Arthur Wood rewrote his version of The Tailor's Britches and what a vast improvement on the 4 other extant versions!(IMO he added hastily)

Subject: RE: Origins: Lloyd's 'Do Me Ama'
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Apr 08 - 04:02 AM

Singers like Duncan Williamson and Willie Mathieson were collectors in their own right, and I know for a fact that Duncan did a great deal of work on adapting what he had got from other Travellers.
We had a fascinating discussion with him one time about the effects of literacy; he could read and write, but he wasn't happy at the time about his children acquiring the skills.
Most of the Irish singers we recorded (West Clare) had learned songs from 'ballad's' (broadsides - usually sold by Travellers who couldn't read and write), which were still being sold here up to the 1950s, and many of the families had manuscript books of their songs, all carefully written out.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Origins: Lloyd's 'Do Me Ama'
From: Bryn Pugh
Date: 25 Apr 08 - 10:51 AM

Idle thoughts at idle times.

I dug out me 'Topic ' samplers - well, the tapes I made of them before they became unplayable - to listen to Mr Lloyd.

I s'pose - or rather, what I intuit from the general tone of this and the other 'Bert' thread - is that it don't really matter to me whether a song has been doctored or not, as long as I get enjoyment from either having sung it, or having listened to it.

Where A.L.Lloyd is concerned, I think it is a case of having infringed the 11th and the 12th commandments :


11.

Subject: RE: Origins: Lloyd's 'Do Me Ama'
From: Bryn Pugh
Date: 25 Apr 08 - 10:56 AM

More haste, less speed.

11. Thou shalt not get caught.

12. If thou art caught, thou shalt keep tight shut thy gob.

Do not misunderstand me - I can appreciate the viewpoints of those, such as Jim Carroll, whose principal interest is the scholarship, his won and others'. For me, enjoyment of the song is all.

In any event : among Morris dancers it is widely appreciated that the likes of Sharp and Roy Dommett (to name but two) doctored and well doctored dances just to get the bloody things danced.

Prophet without honour ? I wonder.

Subject: RE: Origins: Lloyd's 'Do Me Ama'
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 25 Apr 08 - 11:00 AM

Prophet without honour ? I wonder.

I think Bert Lloyd's had plenty of honour - most of it deserved, I hasten to add.

Subject: RE: Origins: Lloyd's 'Do Me Ama'
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 25 Apr 08 - 11:49 AM

Good point Phil.

Bryn,

most of us have gone to great lengths to say that we recognise the incredible contribution that Bert made.

I guess it wont stop most of us enjoying his records and learning some of his songs but I think it's fair to say that Bert made much of the origin and context of the songs and stressed that this should be explained. He also made much of how what we could learn about the lives of working people from the songs, their origin and context. That is why this debate about honesty is opening up.