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BS: Contraception = Abortion
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Subject: RE: BS: Contraception = Abortion From: GUEST,Jack The Sailor Date: 19 Aug 08 - 07:36 PM The definition man who doesn't believe in dictionaries being used on the Mudcat deciding for all that abortion is "extinguishing a life." A person can say things like that when his principle source of data is his own ass. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Contraception = Abortion From: Ebbie Date: 19 Aug 08 - 07:29 PM To me, the issue comes down to When is the baby-to-be a thinking and viable human creature? Until then it is not human, only a human-in-waiting. As far as calling a 10-cell conglomeration human, don't be ridiculous. Whether a sperm or egg is circumvented from meeting or, further, where the uterine wall is made unreceptive and enabled to cast off an enterprising endeavor, that blob, or less, is not human. The 'mother ship', so to speak, has every right to make the decision. My opinion, of course. I have friends who are concerned about the fact that abortion is nullifying a potential child that was perhaps meant to be born. My answer would be - would have to be - that Nature herself casts off many, many such efforts. If a child is meant to be born, he or she will try it again and again. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Contraception = Abortion From: John Hardly Date: 19 Aug 08 - 06:19 PM "...when it's your body do as you will, when it's not stay far away!" Which body, the baby's or yours? And if I'm disqualified from making an ethical judgement based on my gender, so are you -- no matter which side of the issue you come down on. If you're demanding that standard, then your comments should be just as ignored as you demand mine be. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Contraception = Abortion From: John Hardly Date: 19 Aug 08 - 06:15 PM But I got 201. It's the new 200. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Contraception = Abortion From: Barry Finn Date: 19 Aug 08 - 06:14 PM I'll take that 200 too Barry |
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Subject: RE: BS: Contraception = Abortion From: Richard Bridge Date: 19 Aug 08 - 06:09 PM Personally, I swat mosquitos. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Contraception = Abortion From: Barry Finn Date: 19 Aug 08 - 06:08 PM You prove to me that it's a life, other wise stay out of mine!! I care not a twit what you believe or who you believe, when it's your body do as you will, when it's not stay far away! Barry |
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Subject: RE: BS: Contraception = Abortion From: John Hardly Date: 19 Aug 08 - 05:14 PM "Call a life starting where ever you want but don't tell me where you think it starts for me untill you have undebatable back up to prove your position & not a minute before that." Again, you are placing the burden of proof on the wrong party. The side that wants to extinguish the life should be the one with the burden of proof that it is not a human before they are allowed to kill it. All the rest of our legal system works this way. You should be the one with the "undebatable back up" if you wish to extinguish the life. If you think that more contraception should be available, fine. Fight THAT battle. But don't tell me you should then have the right to extinguish life until such time as you prove your case against the unborn. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Contraception = Abortion From: Riginslinger Date: 19 Aug 08 - 04:03 PM "Contraception & Abortion = not your business when it doesn't concern you personnally!!!!!" Okay. But it does concern you personally when your schools are crowded, your hospitals are closing, you have to pay for more and more infrastructure to accommodate people who should not be here... And, like Barry says above, many of these people pay no taxes at all, unless they live in a state with sales taxes. And he's basically right, that it isn't the immigrant's fault, which is why the board of directors of Tyson Foods should be in jail along with a bunch of other employers. But anything they are willing to do at this point to curtail the invasion is fine with me. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Contraception = Abortion From: katlaughing Date: 19 Aug 08 - 03:38 PM Barry, I take back what I said about men not many having any say as it is women's bodies. YOU get it and have put it very well. Thank you, my friend. |
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Subject: RE: BS: = Abortion From: Barry Finn Date: 19 Aug 08 - 02:06 PM Mexico is the problem Here in New England we don't have a Mexican problem, it's Polish & Irish but they look alot like the rest of US so why is this a Southern Border problem, bacuse it can be showcased, it's visual, it make some of US think that their 1st a problem & 2nd that the problem's being taken care of. Hre in the North East in the Construction Industry we get many companies that have both legal & illegal immigrant on & off the books in such a way that they change per job. The employers pay no taxes on the, no workers comp, no SS, they get a daily wage rather than by hr so there's no extra for overtime or holidays, there's no medical coverage, there no unemployment benifts, there's nothing but straight pay. Now when that company bids for a contract against an honest employer whose labor costs will win out? But is that the fault of the immigrant or the falt of an employer & a faulty system. Don't blame the poor immigrant for trying to make better or survive, they are as much the victum as we who are the working class are. THEY ARE US when it comes to being taken advantage of, we are also the victums of our own Coporate Society/Government & they are needed as much as we are, we balance each other for the good of the profit, we exist in the same vacum & could probably not exist with out each other. It has always been when a new set of immigrants comes into a society that they get put to work in the thankless jobs that others don't want. Why do they call them "sandhogs" or "ditchdiggers" or "fruitflies" or whatever, cause we put them to work at the bottom, pay them the less, treat them like shit. BUt we need them just as much as they need US. It's not fair to anyone, not them, not US, not our society, not our Government, not to those who could use the jobs they take but won't work as slaves, not the welfare system, not the health care system & not the educational system but as long as a profit is being made off their backs it will continue & those in power may give alot of mouth to it & build fences & such but they will see that it goes on. Why shut out the immigrant, unless you are of the First Natios you are the reciepiant of an immigrant ascestory. They do not come here only for themselves, they come here for teir children & their children as did yours. If you don't like it try going to the root of the problem, it's not about immigrants, it's about profit, it's not about hospitals closings, it's not about jobs (we export those now anyway), it's not about our economy. It's about how the laws of this land are geared to make sure the working class, & that's you, me, & the legal & illegal immigrants support the power & wealth of the all mighty. The American Dream of working to get ahead is flawed & gone by the boards, it is no longer the case. It is those that can & do twist the laws that are made in their favor that become the ones who exploit the rest of US to a point where we blame each other for our lot in live or our not being at the top of the heap. So back to Contraception. The best way to prevent conception is through education, all aspects of the situation. Not we'll only support abstinence education as this governmet does nationally & internationally. The distrubition of condoms hear & abroad is not a preventive measurethe US supports, unreasonable & unbelivable. The funding for education based of beliefs is also "UN & UN" (God & government again) . It should mater what ones beliefs are, when one is fully educated & informed they have the whereall to make ther own dississions about their own bodies & their own futures. Deny them thse basics & you deny them their freedom of choice, which is what this debate is all about. A person's freedom of choice is what's at stake here, this is what Roe vs Wade is all about. This is an attempt to erode, further the human choice of what one can & can't do with their own bodies (& minds, as far as I'm concerned). Call a life starting where ever you want but don't tell me where you think it starts for me untill you have undebatable back up to prove your position & not a minute before that. Don't tell me what your God or your religion or your Governement thinks or says because this is MY personnal issue not theirs, when they live my life then they can have a say in it. I follow society laws & rules but society needs to let me live my life with the freedoms that's granted & promised me by the highest laws of the land. The hows & whys of the personnal sex lives & practices are not found anywhere in any law books as long as it pertains to consenting adults, it needs to stay that way. Contraception & Abortion = not your business when it doesn't concern you personnally!!!!! Barry |
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Subject: RE: BS: Contraception = Abortion From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor Date: 19 Aug 08 - 01:27 PM Some people share some don't. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Contraception = Abortion From: Riginslinger Date: 19 Aug 08 - 01:05 PM "seems that man really doesn't buckle down to solve problems until they reach crisis level..." Boy, you got that right! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Contraception = Abortion From: Bobert Date: 19 Aug 08 - 12:34 PM Well, as in the big world the "island" does represent a parellel social structure... It isn't as much a popumlation problem as it is a scarcity or resources problem... And that is a real concern on either the "island" or the planet on the whole... As I recall, the boy that was killed ion "Lord of the Flies" was killed not because of scarcity of resources... And of course there is "Skinner's box" where regardless of resources over-population causes anti-socail behaviors... No matter, the discussions thatbare occuring at the levels where they need to be aren't happening becuase of the extreme polorization... Oh well, seems that man really doesn't buckle down to solve problems until they reach crisis level and then, as in now, still isn't too interested... BTW, I live in Menonit country and what Ebbie says is absolutely true... The times have changed and the The Menonites have been slow to change in their family sizes but have figured out that there isn't enough farm land to fo around and so many work in "regular jobs"... B~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Contraception = Abortion From: katlaughing Date: 19 Aug 08 - 12:14 PM LOL, Ebbie, ya think?:-) Actually, the folks who were marooned on the island in Lost did band together and pool what they could scavenge from the plane wreck. It's the "others," who were already there, with whom they have had conflict. Think about it, though. If there were a finite amount of food to be found, do you think people would still be altruistic? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Contraception = Abortion From: pdq Date: 19 Aug 08 - 12:12 PM "I just don't see why borders are fixed and sacrasant." That way of thinking has led to nearly every war in the history of civilization. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Contraception = Abortion From: Ebbie Date: 19 Aug 08 - 12:08 PM lol, kat. No, I haven't. However, I would pick bones over that too. Just as with 'Lord of the Flies', fictional scenarios make gripping stories but they ain't necessarily true. A friend of mine is an avid novel reader and sometimes, imo, loses track of logic and reality. For instance, she once insisted on telling me the story line of this one novel and concluded with, 'As much of an a-hole he was you wouldn't have thought it, but he stepped forward completely out of character and in front of the whole crowd saved her from humiliation.' I said, Mickey! It is fiction! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Contraception = Abortion From: Riginslinger Date: 19 Aug 08 - 12:03 PM "Immigration, whether legal or illegal, to my mind, is a separate issue." I don't think so. When you have people migrating from places that are over crowed to places that are not quite yet over crowded, I think you have a problem. If the population in the places migrants are coming from was going down, it wouldn't be a serious as it is, but that is not the case. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Contraception = Abortion From: katlaughing Date: 19 Aug 08 - 11:36 AM If we were on an island and had to scavenge for food, wouldn't we feed everybody? Ebbie, I am going to bet you don't watch the TV show "Lost?" :-) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Contraception = Abortion From: pdq Date: 19 Aug 08 - 11:16 AM Fedreal prison population (reason for incarceration): Violent 47% 52% Property 23% 21% Drug 22% 20% Public-order 9% 7% Total 100% 100% {Second row is 2007 stats, I believe, first is an earlier year. Answers a question way back there somewhere.} |
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Subject: RE: BS: Contraception = Abortion From: Ebbie Date: 19 Aug 08 - 11:06 AM Rig, you say: "Ebbie - I don't know anyone who advocates that view, but if runaway human migration isn't taken into account, everyone on earth, no matter where they are, will face the exact same problems of the people you describe above. "The answer, of course, is for the problem of over population to be taken care of at the point where it is occurring." Over-population, I agree, is the main problem. Back in the rural days in this country large families were not only the norm but they could be essential. That has changed drastically. Having a large family these days is, I would say, irresponsible. The Amish are finding that out. When I was growing up, it was common for the patriarch to buy or give a farm to each son as he got married. And he might easily have had five or more sons. Farming was the most common occupation among the Amish. Nowadays the sons typically disappear into 'trailer factories' or into 'small engine repair' or some such. Many young Amish families are now living on very few acres, just enough for a horse, a cow or two, a few chickens and a big garden. Big families are still common but small families don't attract the attention they used to. I asked my mother (mother of 10) once whether the Amish were against birth control and she said that they don't make an official issue of it. Tradition, however, holds and probably will continue to until the norm becomes glaringly unsustainable. I equate such tradition to the norms and mores of immigrants. It takes time to face up to the realities of over-population. Immigration, whether legal or illegal, to my mind, is a separate issue. I just don't see why borders are fixed and sacrasant. If we were on an island and had to scavenge for food, wouldn't we feed everybody? John H, you ask why I don't direct my anger at the Mexican government, instead of my own. At the moment I wasn't directing my views toward government of any kind. My dismay Oops. My dog says it is time to head outdoors so I'll stop here for the moment. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Contraception = Abortion From: Riginslinger Date: 19 Aug 08 - 10:13 AM Bobert - It's the right-wing wing-nuts who want unchecked immigration to continue--at least the ones who take advantage of them to generate profit. George W. Bush refused to do anything about it until he absolutely had to. Illegal immigration only fuels the economy for those who are in a postition to take advantage of it. For the rest of us, it's a downer. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Contraception = Abortion From: Bobert Date: 19 Aug 08 - 09:59 AM Ahhhhhh, I took a break from this thread and came back and here the converstaion is back to immigration... Hmmmmmm??? How could that happen??? Abortion and immigration just happen to be the two issues that the right wing wants out front and center and here in one thread they have both??? BTW, where were these righties back in the 90's when immigrants were fueling a steamin' economy??? It's just when things get a little lean that the righties come crawlin' out from the woodwork and get up on the soap box??? Kinda reminds thuis ol' hillbilly of our history of slavery... As long as a certain minority of folks were being good little prisoners and producing lots of stuff all was well but soon as that ended it was "Screw 'um, let them eat cake..." Seems things just don't change eiother for the exploiters or the exploited... B~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Contraception = Abortion From: John Hardly Date: 19 Aug 08 - 09:23 AM Ebbie, why do you think that immigration is not a problem on the North border, but is on the South? Could it be that Canada's government is not so riddled with corruption that its population feels the need to flee and look for survival elsewhere? Why isn't your anger focused on the Mexican government and not on your own? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Contraception = Abortion From: Riginslinger Date: 19 Aug 08 - 08:27 AM "Why does anyone proselytize the view that other people, not so fortunate, deserve the slow death of poverty, the violent death of governmental crime, the experience of seeing their children starve?" Ebbie - I don't know anyone who advocates that view, but if runaway human migration isn't taken into account, everyone on earth, no matter where they are, will face the exact same problems of the people you describe above. The answer, of course, is for the problem of over population to be taken care of at the point where it is occurring. So the Bush policy of trying to equate contraception with abortion is not only hurting his own people, but everyone else on the face of the planet. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Contraception = Abortion From: Peace Date: 19 Aug 08 - 12:32 AM Jesus Keriste, Joseph and Mary. First, contraception does NOT equal abortion. So y'all wasted 179 posts arguing a false equation. Which idiots think this stuff up? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Contraception = Abortion From: CarolC Date: 19 Aug 08 - 12:29 AM The answer to the problem of the poverty in those other countries is for the US to stop its predatory business practices that are the cause of a lot of it. That would be a lot better than creating a situation in which the people in those countries are obliged to uproot themselves and work for slave wages in a strange country just in order to survive. I have no problem with immigration, myself. I'm married to an immigrant. But we need to be looking at the bigger picture, and see in what way we are harming those people and making it necessary for them to come here to this country in order to survive. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Contraception = Abortion From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity Date: 19 Aug 08 - 12:13 AM Ohh, just arrest them, then tell them we're going to cut their nuts off, so they can't have anymore 'Catholic' bambinos..that way they'll all run back to the border, and be equal with their senoritas! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Contraception = Abortion From: Ebbie Date: 18 Aug 08 - 10:49 PM The deep down and dirty problem I have with this conversation- whether it concerns the US or Italy or wherever - is that somehow those people who object so vociferously to "illegal immigration" are here or in Italy or wherever only because they found themselves in that spot. Not because of some innate superiority or superlative virtue on our part but by the luck of the draw. Why does anyone proselytize the view that other people, not so fortunate, deserve the slow death of poverty, the violent death of governmental crime, the experience of seeing their children starve? I recognize the logic that says that if everything were shared equally (Ha! Fat chance!), every one of us in the world would be poor. (Not that I believe it, but then I don't have stats to prove nay or yea.) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Contraception = Abortion From: Riginslinger Date: 17 Aug 08 - 10:09 PM That's a good question Carol. I've wondered that myself. I would think that if a guy is doing bad things, the best solution for the public would be to simply ship the fellow back where he came from. Like that guy they executed in Texas the other day. All they did was piss a bunch of people off, spent a lot of the tax payer's money, and the whole world would have been much more peaceful if they'd just sent him back to Mexico. It's amazing to me that they will hold somebody in a county jail for months and months for Drunk Driving, and then in the end they just send him back. Why would the local tax payers have to pay for that. The same is true for petty theft, illegal posession of marijuana, and on and on. I don't know enough about what it takes to make a federal offense out of something. Kidnapping does it, I guess, but to keep somebody for years and years is just simply stupid, in my opinion. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Contraception = Abortion From: CarolC Date: 17 Aug 08 - 10:01 PM I was responding to what a poster said in this thread about 27% -36% of the inmate population in US federal prisons being Mexican born when I wrote the part where I said I had no opinion about the number of Mexican born inmates in federal prisons, So why would having it be a federal offense be any different than having it be whatever it is now, if the people are going to just be shipped back to their countries of origin? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Contraception = Abortion From: Riginslinger Date: 17 Aug 08 - 09:41 PM "Tell me what I'm missing?" The point! A lot of people think that they need all of these undocumented workers because the corporate mainstream media tells them that. But the cost to the public is huge, and greatly outstrips the benefit of them being here. There are a number of manufacturers who make mechanical grape harvesters, that are used in other parts of the worl, in fact, they used to be used in California, but the illegal worker has gotten so cheap, many places that used them in the past do not anymore. In the long run, it's hard to see how this helps even the undocumented worker. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Contraception = Abortion From: Riginslinger Date: 17 Aug 08 - 09:37 PM "I had no opinion about what the number of Mexican born federal prison inmates would be before it was brought up in this thread." I think Lou Dobbs was talking about illegal aliens, which would include Hondurans, Guatemalans, and etc. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Contraception = Abortion From: Riginslinger Date: 17 Aug 08 - 09:35 PM "If we classify illegal immigration as a felony, and if we hold in our federal prisons all of the illegal immigrants we can catch, we're going to be paying a lot more for their upkeep than we are currently." No! I really don't think so. Of course you'd have to get them on a bus back where they came from as soon as possible. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Contraception = Abortion From: Greg B Date: 17 Aug 08 - 09:23 PM >Bobert, can you cite instances where people who have any hope of >getting their way, "attack the entire idea of birth control, short of >abstainance"? I can. It's called Humanae Vitae, and as of this month it is a 40-year-old train-wreck. "I got rhythm, I got music I got my man Who could ask for anything more?" (A rubber on the man would be nice...) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Contraception = Abortion From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity Date: 17 Aug 08 - 08:46 PM You mean, ILLEGAL immigrants would actually register, with a real name?? I know what your saying is true, but the government isn't enforcing that, (its what we used to do),....THE question is, WHY are we not doing it? Hint...(shhh, its a secret)..the government without anyone's notice or approval is having our borders dissolved, and changed.(Hope that's ok with everyone) Ring around the 'W'-Berry Bush, Rama Obama ding dong. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Contraception = Abortion From: Bill D Date: 17 Aug 08 - 08:27 PM ""California would be bankrupt if it wasn't for illegal immigration...." etc. Seems to me that if immigration were controlled and seasonal migrant workers were registered and here by invitation, California could both get it crops harvested AND save a lot of money on enforcement & prisons, etc. Tell me what I'm missing? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Contraception = Abortion From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity Date: 17 Aug 08 - 08:27 PM Hey, its still a law...Now if they are going to enforce laws, selectively, can we pick the one law, each one of us, individually can choose to ignore????.. which one would YOU pick??...Just think about it a moment....How about the administration??...all of us?.......OR do we enforce the ones we have??? You pick |
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Subject: RE: BS: Contraception = Abortion From: CarolC Date: 17 Aug 08 - 08:17 PM ...and you have to admit, they house themselves a lot more cheaply than what it would cost to house them in a federal prison. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Contraception = Abortion From: CarolC Date: 17 Aug 08 - 08:17 PM We already are... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Contraception = Abortion From: GUEST,Jack The Sailor Date: 17 Aug 08 - 08:16 PM But we could then use them as a source of cheap labor. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Contraception = Abortion From: CarolC Date: 17 Aug 08 - 08:12 PM LOL If we classify illegal immigration as a felony, and if we hold in our federal prisons all of the illegal immigrants we can catch, we're going to be paying a lot more for their upkeep than we are currently. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Contraception = Abortion From: GUEST,Jack The Sailor Date: 17 Aug 08 - 08:06 PM >>JtS...my research shows that 46% of the US federal prison population is there because of violent crime. That leaves 54% for drugs, property crime and everything else. Violence, including murder, is road #1 to a federal prison cell. You are smarter than that. You know what I meant. You know that most of those violent crimes for Mexican and Columbian nationals are drug related. Or are you saying that they are killing, threating and beating people for gardening and construction jobs? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Contraception = Abortion From: CarolC Date: 17 Aug 08 - 08:04 PM I had no opinion about what the number of Mexican born federal prison inmates would be before it was brought up in this thread. However, 27% -36% is not the percentage of federal prison inmates who are Mexican born. That number is around 17%, according to the information we've seen so far. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Contraception = Abortion From: Riginslinger Date: 17 Aug 08 - 07:50 PM If illegal immigration were to be classified as a felony, as many of us think it should be, and if drugs were to be decriminalized, as many of us think they should be, the numbers would change dramatically. So a lot of this can be said to be a little bit pointless. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Contraception = Abortion From: Stilly River Sage Date: 17 Aug 08 - 07:49 PM Well then get off yer butt and look. I know them already and it ain't my job to end you ignorance, it's yours. What an absurd way to debate this topic! PDQ says whatever he wants and insists others prove him right or wrong? I don't think so. You want your point to stick, do your own research, but use links to reputable sources. Like John did. SRS |
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Subject: RE: BS: Contraception = Abortion From: pdq Date: 17 Aug 08 - 07:46 PM JtS...my research shows that 46% of the US federal prison population is there because of violent crime. That leaves 54% for drugs, property crime and everything else. Violence, including murder, is road #1 to a federal prison cell. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Contraception = Abortion From: Riginslinger Date: 17 Aug 08 - 07:36 PM "It's possible that Dobbs may be incorrect." Carol - It looks to me like Lou Dobbs could be described as wrong simply because he was rounding off the number. If one were verbalizing the report, one would probably say "nearly 30%, or in the neighborhood of 30%," and the listener would interpret that as 30%. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Contraception = Abortion From: Riginslinger Date: 17 Aug 08 - 07:32 PM "I think we need to consider the illegals here as part of drug cartels and gangs as a separate problem than those here to do honest work." Why? Illegal aliens in jail, are illegal aliens in jail. Many people come here to do work--none of it honets, of course, if they're illegally here in the first place--and then branch out into other things. Ironically, many gang members turn out to be first generation descendants of illegal aliens. And if they were born here, they wouldn't show up on the illegal radar screen, and won't until something is done to clarify the 14th amendment. But when that is accomplished, the percentage of illegal aliens in jail will probably go way up. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Contraception = Abortion From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor Date: 17 Aug 08 - 06:47 PM Do you think that those figures might have something to do with these facts? Most prisoners are incarcerated on drug related charges. Most Heroin in the US comes in from Mexico. Most cocaine (including crack) Comes from Columbia, often via Mexico. I think we need to consider the illegals here as part of drug cartels and gangs as a separate problem than those here to do honest work. |
