BS: Contraception = Abortion

Subject: RE: BS: Contraception = Abortion
From: pdq
Date: 17 Aug 08 - 06:16 PM

Again, no two independent sources will give the numbers, but 27% -36% is far more than you thought before I made the point, isn't it?

Subject: RE: BS: Contraception = Abortion
From: CarolC
Date: 17 Aug 08 - 05:57 PM

It's possible that Dobbs may be incorrect. According to the Federal Bureau of Prisons website, citizenship breaks down in this way...

United States:        147,796        (73.4 %)
Mexico:        35,033        (17.4 %)
Colombia:        3,003        (1.5 %)
Cuba:        1,739        (0.9 %)
Dominican Republic:        2,933        (1.5 %)
Other/Unknown:        10,913        (5.4 %)


According to these figures, the percentage of federal prison inmates who are not US citizens is 26.7 percent, 17.4 percent of whom are Mexican citizens. It does not break these figures down into which US citizens are naturalized Mexican immigrants.


It does cite a percentage of 31.8 of federal prison inmates being Hispanic, but that's not at all the same thing as being Mexican born. Many Hispanics come from families that have been in the Southwest part of what is now the US for hundreds of years, and have been citizens of this country ever since they were absorbed into it when their areas of origin became US territory. Many are native born US Americans whose parents, grand parents or even earlier ancestors came to the US and established citizenship. And many Hispanics (people who come from Spanish speaking cultures) come from other countries besides Mexico.

http://www.bop.gov/news/quick.jsp#2

Subject: RE: BS: Contraception = Abortion
From: Riginslinger
Date: 17 Aug 08 - 05:34 PM

Well, one thing's for sure, if Lou Dobbs says it, you can take it to the bank.

Subject: RE: BS: Contraception = Abortion
From: CarolC
Date: 17 Aug 08 - 05:21 PM

The flaw in the reasoning behind the figure of 35 percent being Mexican by birth is that Mexico is hardly the only country from which immigrants come to the US. And the 30 percent figure cited by Dobbs (hardly a champion for illegal immigration) applies to all immigrants, legal or otherwise, and from all of the countries from which immigrants come to the US.

Like I said... looks like someone is making up their statistics as they go along.

Subject: RE: BS: Contraception = Abortion
From: Riginslinger
Date: 17 Aug 08 - 05:02 PM

"So...how do you know the teens are "native" born...are they all white as far as you are concerned. Why do YOU think they aren't working?"


                         Like the man said, "I only know what I read in the newspapers." And statistics that have been published state that the teenaged unemployement rate in America is around 17%, or it was the last time I heard it reported. The same report told the listener that many of the jobs that used to be available to teen workers have gone to illegal aliens--though I suppose they actually said "undocumented workers."

                        For these teens to be showing up in surveys like that, it wouldn't seem they are talking about teens who are here illegally, because that group is represented on the other side of the equation.

                        Some of these teens could in fact be naturalized citizens, and there very well might be a few, but I wouldn't think very many. Not enought to skew the survey, surely.

                        I have no clue as to how many of them are white. I don't think that would have been an issue to anyone concerned.

Subject: RE: BS: Contraception = Abortion
From: pdq
Date: 17 Aug 08 - 04:58 PM

CarolC...

There will be some differences is statistics, even from two separate branches of our own Federal government.

There are quite a few Mexico-born crimnals who received their citizenship before being convicted of a serious crime. This is especially true of those millions who received "amnesty". The additional 5.7% as "Mexico-born but naturalized citizens" makes the total 35.7% Mexico-born, just as I said. If you want to call me a liar ove 0.3% from "rounding up" you can take a hike.

Subject: RE: BS: Contraception = Abortion
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 17 Aug 08 - 04:54 PM

Riginslinger,

It was rhetoric. I was being a little hyperbolic. But what I was was essentially true. I think its fair to say that California's economy as it is structured today is quite dependent on Illegal immigrants.

The construction industry here in North Carolina also seems dependent on them.

Subject: RE: BS: Contraception = Abortion
From: katlaughing
Date: 17 Aug 08 - 04:40 PM

Rigin, yours is some of the most twisted logic I've ever read. You claim not to look at country of origin, yet you mention "native born teens" who are out of work and you inference is this is because of illegal immigrants from south of the border. So...how do you know the teens are "native" born...are they all white as far as you are concerned. Why do YOU think they aren't working? Could it be because they have a false sense of entitlement and don't feel as if they NEED a job? Or, won't do the work that illegals will?

Well then get off yer butt and look. I know them already and it ain't my job to end you ignorance, it's yours.

That'll sure win ya a lot of debates...if you're going to claim something, it's up to you to cite your sources, pdq...that's elementary.

Subject: RE: BS: Contraception = Abortion
From: pdq
Date: 17 Aug 08 - 04:39 PM

California has only about 75,000 jobs for full-time farm workers. They are important since skills like pruning trees and thinning fruit is not even taught in the US to any serious degree.

The rest of the farm work is done by migrant labor, that is people who go from Imperial county in the south to Washington state in the north as the season progresses. They usually return to Mexico and have families. They are also very importatnt. Both permanent and migrant farm workers are welcome and always have been.

It is the other 20 million Mexicans living in California that have reduced Golden State to Third World status. California's educational system is right there with Mississipi and Arkansas duking it out for dead last. .

Subject: RE: BS: Contraception = Abortion
From: Riginslinger
Date: 17 Aug 08 - 04:34 PM

"California would be bankrupt if it wasn't for illegal immigration. The fruit would rot on the vines. Store shelves would go unstocked, building would slow to a crawl, expensive homes would not be cared for, Children would be neglected."


                        Jack - That's the most uninformed proposition I've heard in a very long time. But if it were true, the people who are benefiting from illegal immigration--aside from the immigrants themselves, are the employers--and they would be the ones who have the expensive homes that would not be cared for.

                        So who gives a shit?



                        There's no way to explain why you would think that children would not be cared for. Maybe you could follow up on that.

Subject: RE: BS: Contraception = Abortion
From: CarolC
Date: 17 Aug 08 - 04:30 PM

Looks like someone just made up that figure of 35 percent of federal prison inmates being Mexican born.

Lou Dobbs has this to say about it...

According to the Federal Bureau of Prisons, 30 percent of federal prisoners are not U.S. citizens.

So that's 30 percent, and the figure applies to all people who are not US citizens, and not just people who were born in Mexico (and not just from countries with brown skinned people), and it applies to all who are not citizens, rather than just applying to those who are here illegally.

Subject: RE: BS: Contraception = Abortion
From: Riginslinger
Date: 17 Aug 08 - 04:28 PM

"Rigin, do you think all native born Californians are white? That's what you seem to imply."


                   No, I never thought that. And I don't think the majority of the people who have a problem with illegal immigration are all that concerned with legal immigration. The country of origin is not the issue.

Subject: RE: BS: Contraception = Abortion
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 17 Aug 08 - 04:19 PM

California would be bankrupt if it wasn't for illegal immigration. The fruit would rot on the vines. Store shelves would go unstocked, building would slow to a crawl, expensive homes would not be cared for, Children would be neglected.

So yes. Amos is right.

You can't just look at the costs of the immigration. You have to weigh the costs against the benefits. One would think that one shouldn't have to be very smart to figure that out. But genius as he obviously is. John Hardly just wants to look at the costs.

He also seems to think that there is a higher source than the dictionary for the definition of words.
Ohhhhhhh, the "Mudcat" form of "arguing" is to use the dictionary!!! Oooooh oooooh!!

While it is easier to make up one's own definition to suit one's argument or to continue to argue from the point of view from a fallacy rather than just to look something up, choosing ignorance is undesirable and leads to misunderstanding.

Solely blaming illegal immigration for problems in the health care system is also presenting ignorance as a default stance. Even in the LA Times article that Hardly used as "evidence" there are indications that the problem is broader.

Blaming illegal immigration for the decline in unions is also pretty silly. Too silly to merit rebuttal really. Yeah, go ahead ask Mick, or anyone else in the labor movement, who is more responsible for the decline in labor unions; Illegal immigrants or self described "conservatives" who call unions "special interests" while they vote for legislators who are in the pockets of big business.

Subject: RE: BS: Contraception = Abortion
From: CarolC
Date: 17 Aug 08 - 04:19 PM

I did look. And they're just not there. Here's my Google search...

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=36+percent+federal+prison+mexican+born&btnG=Google+Search

Subject: RE: BS: Contraception = Abortion
From: John Hardly
Date: 17 Aug 08 - 04:16 PM

"Amos' point on health care is a slam dunk--don't parse out one group and make it sound like no other group impacts the huge cost of health care."

What makes you assume that a liberal paper like the L.A.Times hasn't already taken that into consideration BEFORE they posted their $1,000,000,000 figure? They WANT you to be right. Why do you doubt them?

Subject: RE: BS: Contraception = Abortion
From: pdq
Date: 17 Aug 08 - 04:08 PM

Well then get off yer butt and look. I know them already and it ain't my job to end you ignorance, it's yours.

Subject: RE: BS: Contraception = Abortion
From: CarolC
Date: 17 Aug 08 - 04:03 PM

I'd like to see a source for the figure of 36 percent of the federal prison population being Mexican born.

Subject: RE: BS: Contraception = Abortion
From: katlaughing
Date: 17 Aug 08 - 03:29 PM

Rigin, do you think all native born Californians are white? That's what you seem to imply.

To put the whole spending of health care costs in perspective, check out war funding and tell me why the wealthiest country in the world willingly spends BILLIONS on death and destruction, but begrudges ANYONE decent, easily accessible healthcare. esp. preventative healthcare (but, wait, then ERs might not be as necessary!) You want to start bitching about how much immigrants use the ERs, take a look at the irresponsible spending priorities of our government.

Subject: RE: BS: Contraception = Abortion
From: pdq
Date: 17 Aug 08 - 03:17 PM

"20,000 people out of the 55,000 prisoners currently serving sentences or awaiting trial in Italian jails are foreigners." {in Italy}

Well, let's see. 55,000 prisoners and 20,000 are illegal aliens, that's 36%.

In the United States, 36% of the Federal prison population is Mexico-born and came here illegally. Anybody else beginning to feel kinship with the Italians? Anybody care about the people who were robbed, assulted, raped or murdeed by those prisoners? Hint: they ain't there for being here illegally. Not in Federal prison. Not one of them.

Subject: RE: BS: Contraception = Abortion
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 17 Aug 08 - 03:08 PM

Amos' point on health care is a slam dunk--don't parse out one group and make it sound like no other group impacts the huge cost of health care. Look at the entire situation first, then draw slices in the pie. There is still a greater strain from citizens who don't have insurance than the impact from illegal aliens. But it all adds up to a huge problem.

To bring this back around the contraception and abortion, this is another instance when good information in schools, plus easy access to contraception of choice, would reduce health care and emergency room costs considerably. Fewer trips to the emergency room for uninsured birth mothers.

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: Contraception = Abortion
From: Riginslinger
Date: 17 Aug 08 - 03:05 PM

This is what is going on in Italy. By the BBC:


The number of illegal immigrants entering Italy doubled in the first seven months of the year compared with the same period in 2007, Rome says.

The figures come in spite of a government crackdown on crime and an increase in the number of deportations.

More than 15,000 illegal immigrants entered the EU via Italy between January and July, Interior Minister Roberto Maroni said.

Many illegal immigrants arrive on boats organised by people traffickers.


Many Italians associate illegal immigration with crime

Mr Maroni, whose Northern League party formed part of the right-wing government coalition, has campaigned strongly against clandestine immigration.

Most of the illegal immigrants come across the Mediterranean Sea from North Africa.

Italian Prime Minister Silvio Berlusconi has launched a crackdown on crime, which most Italians associate with illegal immigration.

He brought in stringent new measures making it an offence punishable by up to four years jail to enter the country illegally.

Prisons full

Expulsions have increased by 15% so far this year but the Italian authorities often find the countries of origin of illegal arrivals reluctant to accept them back if they are deported.

Two weeks ago the authorities began deploying troops in joint anti-crime patrols with police in some of Italy's major cities.

Thirty-three non-EU nationals have been arrested so far. Italy's prisons are already crammed with foreigners.

Some 20,000 people out of the 55,000 prisoners currently serving sentences or awaiting trial in Italian jails are foreigners.

The number of these foreign prisoners continues to increase because of the expense and difficulty of executing expulsions ordered by the judiciary.

Subject: RE: BS: Contraception = Abortion
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 17 Aug 08 - 02:49 PM

I was distracted earlier and didn't finish my thought.

The supposed reason Homeland Security is building this fence and mowing down laws right and left is not because of illegal immigration, it is because of "Terrorism." Now you show me how a vast unprotected border on the north is not going to let "terrorists" through? And why the far-more observed southern border needs so much attention and the north doesn't? It's poppycock.

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: Contraception = Abortion
From: CarolC
Date: 17 Aug 08 - 02:49 PM

What's going on in Italy?

Subject: RE: BS: Contraception = Abortion
From: pdq
Date: 17 Aug 08 - 02:37 PM

"Dictionary definitions score bonus points."

Do you mean like "liberal = open-minded"?

That definition is the most absurd statement ever posted on Mudcat.

Subject: RE: BS: Contraception = Abortion
From: John Hardly
Date: 17 Aug 08 - 02:28 PM

Oh, and don't forget the other mudcat rule:

Dictionary definitions score bonus points.

Subject: RE: BS: Contraception = Abortion
From: John Hardly
Date: 17 Aug 08 - 02:27 PM

I don't even understand the connection in your first line. What do white native borns have to do with immigration? As to the second...

You're asking the questions. You answer. That's how the gotcha game is played. You don't discuss, you source.

Subject: RE: BS: Contraception = Abortion
From: Amos
Date: 17 Aug 08 - 02:23 PM

If you were to add up ONLY the costs of the white native-born population, you would find it is a horrible picture indeed.

How much does the illegal immigrant population produce of value, and often at lower cost than the established equivalent labor?

How much does the immigrant population pay in taxes (sales taxes, real estate taxes, DMV taxes, city and county taxes, state and Federal income taxes?

A

Subject: RE: BS: Contraception = Abortion
From: John Hardly
Date: 17 Aug 08 - 02:11 PM

Here.

Because I know how these things work here on the mudcat -- that is, you ask for documentation as a means of dismissing an obviously true point, and if someone decides to be ambitious enough to go ahead and google up documentation that you ask for, you impugn the documentation...

...for that reason, I chose the link above because, unlike the dozens and dozens of other links I might have provided that show a MUCH greater cost of health care alone -- in California alone -- costs from 9-12 billion dollars a year...

...the link I provided is a liberal pov that is actually seeking to MINIMIZE the economic impact by saying that it's only costing 1 Billion dollars annually.

If you didn't want to play the above mentioned mudcat source game, and googled for yourself, I think you'd objectively find that illegal immigration costs BILLIONS no matter how you might want to gloss over -- put the best spin on -- the numbers

Subject: RE: BS: Contraception = Abortion
From: Riginslinger
Date: 17 Aug 08 - 02:05 PM

'Could anyone show actuall & reliable proofs that "we are suffering TERRIBLE economic woes -- from huge outlays for health care and education, to loss of jobs -- from the immigration from the south".'


                     Yes, and it's been presented many times. The problem is, the Neo-Con think tanks who want this cheap migration of labor to continue will happily provide statistics to prove something else. The best analogy in a case like this is made through your own obsevation.
                     Look at the teachers being layed off in California, the hospitals that are being forced to close, the high number of native born teens who are out of work, and see if you can determine what is causing all of this.

Subject: RE: BS: Contraception = Abortion
From: katlaughing
Date: 17 Aug 08 - 01:47 PM

Me, too, Barry. Around here the Mexican immigrants I see are working their asses off, a lot more than the young folks I see who think they are entitled to do nothing and be supported.

Subject: RE: BS: Contraception = Abortion
From: Barry Finn
Date: 17 Aug 08 - 01:41 PM

Could anyone show actuall & reliable proofs that "we are suffering TERRIBLE economic woes -- from huge outlays for health care and education, to loss of jobs -- from the immigration from the south".

I believe this to be myth rather than a truth, please back up your statement with some facts.

Barry

Subject: RE: BS: Contraception = Abortion
From: pdq
Date: 17 Aug 08 - 01:15 PM

You are correct as usual, John Hardly.

Without immigration (illegal or not) we have a finite amount of "labor" and the unions can be powerful and make any demands they want.

With the Mexican immigration reaching near 40 million, we have, in effect, an "infinite" labor pool and unions are dying. Sorry to those who don't like it, but that's the way it is. And don't blame me, I had nothin' to do with it.

Subject: RE: BS: Contraception = Abortion
From: John Hardly
Date: 17 Aug 08 - 01:06 PM

Maggie, I'm sorry, but that's just silly. We are suffering no ills from illegal immigration from the north. We are suffering TERRIBLE economic woes -- from huge outlays for health care and education, to loss of jobs -- from the immigration from the south. And only those wealthy who are taking unfair advantage of the illegals are gaining from the influx -- and they're the very ones you claim are building the walls for racial reasons.

Tell you what, you ask labor organizer Mick if the border problem is racial or economic.

It has nothing to do with race and everything to do with economics.

Subject: RE: BS: Contraception = Abortion
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 17 Aug 08 - 12:51 PM

If we want to prevent all illegal immigration, why discriminate against the northern border? There is illegal traffic, and things can always change and increase that amount.

I am certain that it isn't the amount of traffic in the north, I think it is the white faces and the English language of most crossing from Canada that are in the minds of the Bush Neo-Cons when they overlook that broad expanse of unprotected border.

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: Contraception = Abortion
From: John Hardly
Date: 17 Aug 08 - 12:30 PM

Well, yes, JH, but most of us Canadians don't want to emigrate.

Yeah, that's what I'm saying. Maggie is saying that we're building a wall on the southern border but not on the northern border. She's implying by her contrast that we have an immigration problem on both borders. We don't.

But we'd certainly welcome more Canadians. Like William Shatner, for instance, eh?

Subject: RE: BS: Contraception = Abortion
From: Riginslinger
Date: 17 Aug 08 - 12:12 PM

"'The Jehovah's Witnesses, on the other hand, have 30 or more cars, sometimes 40 plus. And yes, most of the attendees seem to be "Hispanic".'"


                You've got to wonder why that would appeal to them, but like I said earlier, you choose your religion. There's no sense in making some kind of affirmative action case for it.

Subject: RE: BS: Contraception = Abortion
From: Bee
Date: 17 Aug 08 - 12:11 PM

Well, yes, JH, but most of us Canadians don't want to emigrate. There is a people smuggling problem on our border, though it seems to be more Asian based, and is either a booming business or a drop in the bucket, depending on who's reporting the news.

And there are indeed 'Minutemen' wannabes on the Can./US border. I saw a very amusing interview a few years ago with an old Maine fella who sits in his lawn chair and keeps a fierce lookout on the border woods next to his place. At the time our dollar was around sixty-four cents US, but buddy was quite convinced ordinary Canadians were sneakin' across to do somethin'... shop, maybe?

Subject: RE: BS: Contraception = Abortion
From: Riginslinger
Date: 17 Aug 08 - 12:10 PM

"Riginslinger, is this actually your opinion..."


                        Yes, it's my opinion!



    "Michael Chertoff can ignore any big or small federal regulations he wants to get the fence built..."


                        Hope he get's 'er done before somebody else takes over.

Subject: RE: BS: Contraception = Abortion
From: John Hardly
Date: 17 Aug 08 - 11:55 AM

"Social Darwinism is alive and well, and this abortion/Catholic discussion is a small part of it. Look at the border fences being built by the U.S. You don't see one going up along the Canadian border, do you?"

Are there tens of millions of illegal immigrants crossing the Canadian/US border? I hadn't read that anywhere.

Dang, pretty soon we'll be expected to learn Canadian, eh?

Subject: RE: BS: Contraception = Abortion
From: pdq
Date: 17 Aug 08 - 11:34 AM

In my small rural area, we have quite a few churches which are meeting grounds for a small handful of people, mostly older ones at that. The Catholic Sunday service is likely to draw about 8 cars full of people, half are Italian decent, the wealthiest group around here. The others are mostly Irish decent.

The Jehovah's Witnesses, on the other hand, have 30 or more cars, sometimes 40 plus. And yes, most of the attendees seem to be "Hispanic".

Poor ol' Adventists, two or three cars, probably most come on days when they are expected to cut down the weeds.

As far as a powerhouse, the Mormon (LDS) folks are the most important here as they actually do stuff, not just talk about it. BTW, the Church of LDS sent heir representatives to Mexico City a couple of decades back and gathered all the birth and death records they could find. The process is still ongoing. The Mormons have better records of Mexican geneology right now than does the Mexican government.

Subject: RE: BS: Contraception = Abortion
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 17 Aug 08 - 11:06 AM

It seems clear that since the majority of Hispanic women are raised from birth as Catholic, the majority of them might believe that birth control is a sin before God. After all, their God says so This is not a racist remark in particular; the predominance of Catholicism in Hispanic populations is a demographic fact.

Amos, statistically the majority of Hispanic residents in the U.S., where this conversation is based, are not still Roman Catholic. Many of them never were, or have changed over to the Protestant religions than have remained Catholic. FWIW. Check the census information for this (I heard it recently on an NPR story). An example, in our family my ex was raised Methodist (but lapsed ages ago); his mother and brother and sister-in-law are Jehovah's Witnesses. My Hispanic daughter doesn't practice a religion.

And if there is any racism involved in this procedure, it is on the part of those people who are hopelessly addicted to some ancient super superstition (or pretend to be hopelessly addicted to some ancient superstition) so that they think it is perfectly fine for them to go forth and pro-create, all the while contributing to the further over population of the planet. While those people who are more responsible and try to limit their numbers find themselves being systematically crowded out.

Riginslinger, is this actually your opinion or are you attributing it to a collective "they" who hand down such hackneyed racists anti-Catholic dogma?

Social Darwinism is alive and well, and this abortion/Catholic discussion is a small part of it. Look at the border fences being built by the U.S. You don't see one going up along the Canadian border, do you? Social Darwinism is the reason for that, and even more appalling, the fence is going up at the cost of more than social issues. Michael Chertoff can ignore any big or small federal regulations he wants to get the fence built. Endangered Species Act, Clean Water Act, plus I think they said there are something like 33 separate big federal laws he has ignored and a host of smaller ones. I think I heard this most recently on NOW on PBS. I poked around the radio pages and finally realized I'd actually seen part of the story. It was either here or on Bill Moyer's Journal.

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: Contraception = Abortion
From: Riginslinger
Date: 17 Aug 08 - 10:36 AM

Of course it's not wide-spread. It's cutting-edge and won't be in the common domain for a while yet.

            The way things are going, it looks like it's going to get its first hearing in the mainstream press in Italy.

Subject: RE: BS: Contraception = Abortion
From: Bee
Date: 17 Aug 08 - 09:55 AM

I hope it isn't a wide-spread perspective, as it's rather horrifying, TBH, Rig.

Subject: RE: BS: Contraception = Abortion
From: John Hardly
Date: 17 Aug 08 - 09:38 AM

That is a weird perspective. One I'm fairly sure that you share with exactly nobody else.

There has always been -- from the time of Margaret Sanger on -- at least a small element of racism and population control of the "wrong" races hoped to be achieved by making abortion more prevalent and accessible. That's not really argueable. But I don't think it's a majority opinion.

Subject: RE: BS: Contraception = Abortion
From: Amos
Date: 17 Aug 08 - 09:33 AM

Ethnic cleansing? What a bizarre notion!! Who do you think is carrying it out, and how, and by what means? Against whom?

A

Subject: RE: BS: Contraception = Abortion
From: Riginslinger
Date: 17 Aug 08 - 09:10 AM

While it's true that ethnicity and race are something bestowed upon an individual over which he/she has no control. Religion is a matter of choice.
            If an individual is under the impression that birth contol is a sin before god, that's their belief. It's nothing that can't be overcome.

            What the Latino population is engaged in in the Southwest United States at this time in history is simply "ethnic cleansing" carried on by other means.

Subject: RE: BS: Contraception = Abortion
From: Amos
Date: 17 Aug 08 - 08:58 AM

It seems clear that since the majority of Hispanic women are raised from birth as Catholic, the majority of them might believe that birth control is a sin before God. After all, their God says so This is not a racist remark in particular; the predominance of Catholicism in Hispanic populations is a demographic fact.


A

Subject: RE: BS: Contraception = Abortion
From: Riginslinger
Date: 17 Aug 08 - 08:27 AM

Education and access have had an effect on runnaway human population growth in Italy, but have you read about what is going on there?

                   If Latin American women have means of controlling the birth rate of their group, then the actions they are engaged in must have a more sinister motive.

Subject: RE: BS: Contraception = Abortion
From: katlaughing
Date: 17 Aug 08 - 01:30 AM

Of for goodness sake, Rigin. Believe me, women have always found ways to prevent pregnancy despite their religion, on their own, though not nearly as safely as the legal methods we now have, but they may have to use whatever they can to make it seem they are going along with their religion. There are enough physical frailties of the human body that the scenario you bring up will not happen, imo. This is to say nothing of the subsequent generations deciding they aren't going to follow in their parents' footsteps/religions. Drought, famine, etc. can have just as much of an effect on large families as small, if not more, so there's several more reasons not to fear such outcomes. I am not putting this as clearly as I'd like, but I really think you are making a mountain out of a molehill.

Education and access, not fear, can have a much more profound and positive effect on the world's population, imo.

Subject: RE: BS: Contraception = Abortion
From: Riginslinger
Date: 16 Aug 08 - 11:26 PM

"Where did you get the idea that Hispanic women find birth control morally repugnant..."

            Kat - Please review the post. I wrote Hispanic women "might" find birth control morally repugnant...

            And if there is any racism involved in this procedure, it is on the part of those people who are hopelessly addicted to some ancient super superstition (or pretend to be hopelessly addicted to some ancient superstition) so that they think it is perfectly fine for them to go forth and pro-create, all the while contributing to the further over population of the planet. While those people who are more responsible and try to limit their numbers find themselves being systematically crowded out.

            When confronted with this inconsitantcy, they simply say--"birth control is against my religion." Following that logic, in a few generations the world would have nothing but Catholics, Muslims, and Mormons. Imagine the magnitude of the World War that would lead to.