BS: Contraception = Abortion

Subject: RE: BS: Contraception = Abortion
From: katlaughing
Date: 16 Aug 08 - 11:14 PM

Riginslinger, you continue to astound with your seemingly racist remarks. Where did you get the idea that Hispanic women find birth control morally repugnant AND, even if they do, what right do you have to judge them? Do you feel afraid that whites may not be in a majority over the coming century? Do you understand that there are MANY whites who are evangelicals, Roman Catholics, etc. who find birth control morally replugnant? And, that that is okay, for them, as long as they don't try to force their views on the rest of us?

Subject: RE: BS: Contraception = Abortion
From: Riginslinger
Date: 16 Aug 08 - 11:07 PM

"Riginslinger,"

    "I fail to see the connection between a truth-in-labeling policy for birth control products and the increasing proportion of Hispanic Americans. Surely you are not implying that you want doctors to trick Hispanic women into using products that they might find morally repugnant, are you?"   

"Kent"


                  Kent - I guess I misunderstood the direction of the thread. I don't want doctors to "trick" anybody. People certainly need to have confidence in their health care providors.

                The fact that Hispanic women might find birth control to be morally repugnant is by itself morally repugnant, and that's where one would need to start, I think, to bring a sense of reason to this issue.

Subject: RE: BS: Contraception = Abortion
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 16 Aug 08 - 09:28 PM

I'd rather some pro life Congressman, say Senator McCain, brought it up on the floor and discussed it there, proposed a law and put it to a vote.

Subject: RE: BS: Contraception = Abortion
From: Kent Davis
Date: 16 Aug 08 - 09:25 PM

Jack,

I agree that the executive branch is not the most appropriate power to handle the "truth in labeling" issue. The best way would be for individual physicians to take a few minutes to explain things to their patients who request birth control. I'm sure some do, but many don't.   

As far as I know, there has been no Congressional action. If the executive branch's attempt fails, I expect the issue will ultimately be decided by the judiciary. I predict that eventually someone will bring a big successful lawsuit against her doctor for failure to obtain (meaningful) consent to treatment. Then the malpractice insurers will insist that the truth be told rather than obscured.

Kent

Subject: RE: BS: Contraception = Abortion
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 16 Aug 08 - 06:43 PM

Kent,

I'm having trouble with what might be a "truth in labeling" problem being turned into an outright ban and also into a redefinition of legal definition of abortion. Its a job for Congress, not for a Bush appointed bureacrat.

Subject: RE: BS: Contraception = Abortion
From: katlaughing
Date: 16 Aug 08 - 06:16 PM

Kent, thanks for putting forth your concerns in a reasonable way. I guess I still just don't see any need for the distinction. Contraception to me, and to every other woman I know who has discussed it with me, means NOT getting pregnant/preventing pregnancy, by whatever legal and reasonable means she may choose to use. If it means keeping an egg from implanting, it is still contraception, to me. Bringing it up, if a woman hasn't, sounds to me as if it could just be another form of attack on women's rights, another way for the extremists to sow doubt, guilt and shame on a woman. I don't think YOU are one of those, nor do I think you would do that deliberately, but it does seem another part of their arsenal, imo.

Subject: RE: BS: Contraception = Abortion
From: Amos
Date: 16 Aug 08 - 04:50 PM

Follow-on mail from Nita Chaudry of Moveon.org:

"Wow. Over 250,000 people have signed a message to the Bush Administration saying contraception is NOT abortion. Every signature will be delivered next week to Health and Human Services Secretary Mike Leavitt, and the media will be notified of our final signature count.

The more folks who sign, the stronger our impact together will be—can you help us break 300,000 signatures? To do that, just think of 10 friends who care about reproductive rights and forward them the message below." (See first post of this thread for link).


A

Subject: RE: BS: Contraception = Abortion
From: Kent Davis
Date: 16 Aug 08 - 02:48 PM

Katlaughing,

Women do occasionally slough off lots of eggs each month. That's how we get fraternal twins, fraternal triplets, etc. Usually, however, only one egg is released each month. Even if several are released, unless they are fertilized, there is no issue (no pun intended).

You say, "If a woman feels that strongly about conception happening so early, I am sure she lets her doctor know. If not, she ought to and the doctor should support her in that." The problem is that sometimes they don't let their doctors know. Why? Because they don't even realize it is an issue. Even you, who "have been involved in women's rights for many years" had "honestly never come across this as an issue before". Neither have many other women. They think that a technology which their doctor calls a "contraceptive" must prevent conception. It doesn't necessarily occur to them that, in some cases, it may work another way.

Riginslinger,

I fail to see the connection between a truth-in-labeling policy for birth control products and the increasing proportion of Hispanic Americans. Surely you are not implying that you want doctors to trick Hispanic women into using products that they might find morally repugnant, are you?   

Kent

Subject: RE: BS: Contraception = Abortion
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 16 Aug 08 - 01:58 AM

'Shotgun approach'?? It was just straight ahead...and still misunderstood. Perhaps with all the 'politically correct' gibberish going on, nobody understands a plain and simple truth anymore...and I'm not getting dragged into a ridiculous, combative semi literate(read: half witted)bunch of wrangling over it either...no matter what gang of wonderful ladies gather 'round to agree on misinterpreting it.

Subject: RE: BS: Contraception = Abortion
From: katlaughing
Date: 15 Aug 08 - 11:18 PM

Kent, thank you. I am a vegetarian, too, and have had that happen to me.

I still do not think the difference is that great, and I say that as a woman and a teen mother when contraception and abortion were illegal in my State. Actually, this is the first time I've ever heard any of it referred to as anti-implantation. It is my understanding a woman sloughs off lots of eggs each month, which may be fertile. If that is so...should we restrict women's "moon-times" too? That may sound ridiculous, but no more than what you have brought up, imo. If a woman feels that strongly about conception happening so early, I am sure she lets her doctor know. If not, she ought to and the doctor should support her in that. I have been involved in women's rights for many years and honestly never come across this as an issue before, though.

Subject: RE: BS: Contraception = Abortion
From: Riginslinger
Date: 15 Aug 08 - 11:01 PM

And this is why the Religeous Right is getting so much politialc support in the C=A issue.
                   From an AP article describing how whites will no longer be a majority in America by 2042.

             "Whereas, Hispanics are projected to nearly triple their numbers, rising from an estimated 46.7 million today to under 133 million by 2050, out of a projected total US population of 439 million."

Subject: RE: BS: Contraception = Abortion
From: Bee
Date: 15 Aug 08 - 10:18 PM

I apologize, Kent, if I have misjudged you, but let me assure you that there are plenty of GPs and even gynecologists out there who seem to have limited knowledge of the many variants of women's bodies. Perhaps they skipped those classes.

Subject: RE: BS: Contraception = Abortion
From: Kent Davis
Date: 15 Aug 08 - 10:12 PM

Bee,

Thank you for your concern that I might be writing "while not having a clue exactly how women's bodies actually function and the many, many variables that make one birth control method work for a woman and another not." I'm happy to assure you we covered that in the first year of medical school.

Kat,

I'm a vegetarian. Can you imagine how I feel when I order something in a restaurant and find out, three bites into the meal, that the "vegetarian" dish I ordered actually has meat in it? Call me a hair-splitter, but I don't like being misled, even over a relatively trivial matter such as that.

How much worse it is that woman are being misled, by the labels their physician chooses, into violating their own consciences on a matter that is, to some of them, supremely important! It makes me ashamed of my profession. Ironically, those who are most keen to call those technologies "contraception" claim to be pro-choice. Meaningful choice requires information. Mislabeling those technologies as "contraception" obscures the information these women would need to make a choice.

Kent

Subject: RE: BS: Contraception = Abortion
From: olddude
Date: 15 Aug 08 - 08:21 PM

did you ever notice that BUSH is a four letter word!
hmmm

if the shoe fits

Subject: RE: BS: Contraception = Abortion
From: Bee
Date: 15 Aug 08 - 07:13 PM

Thanks, kat and SRS.

Subject: RE: BS: Contraception = Abortion
From: Donuel
Date: 15 Aug 08 - 06:44 PM

Life began on Earth 4 billion years ago. That life may arguably have been exoseeded, making life older still.

Simply forgo the chicken and egg nonsense and realize that life derives from life and that all life is contiguous and not subject to silly arguments of life begining with each zygote of each animal.

If anyone asks when life began...the most truthful answer is a minimum of 4 billion years.

Subject: RE: BS: Contraception = Abortion
From: katlaughing
Date: 15 Aug 08 - 06:28 PM

Bee, well said and I completely agree with you and with SRS.

Subject: RE: BS: Contraception = Abortion
From: robomatic
Date: 15 Aug 08 - 05:23 PM

I once worked with a group of East Europeans who had emigrated from the Communist world in the 'bad old days'. About one Rumanian woman I was told that she'd had an abortion because she'd received her papers and there would be major problems for her to emigrate with the baby. I didn't know what to make of the story and it wasn't really my business but I don't think she made the decision lightly.

On a different tack, I think parents have the right to terminate a pregnancy where the fetus is known to be defective. I'm not talking about nearsighted. I'm talking of Tay-Sachs, spinal bifida, hydrocephalic, etc. The obvious next question is what constitutes a sufficiency of defectiveness? My take on it right now is that it is not for a government to decide. On the other hand, there are societies which are right now exercising that kind of choice - the defectiveness has to do with the lack of a Y chromosome. In other words, huge numbers of abortions have been performed in India and China purely because the baby to be was female. So I'm a bit up in the air on leaving it to the masses, but I feel ultimately it will be self-correcting.

Subject: RE: BS: Contraception = Abortion
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 15 Aug 08 - 03:54 PM

Guest, Guest from Sanity,

Your shotgun approach to this conversation makes your remarks almost impossible to understand. And Bee wasn't nagging, she made perfect sense.

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: Contraception = Abortion
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 15 Aug 08 - 03:15 PM

Bee, Nag nag nag!....The price isn't the child..the price I was referring to was the abortion! (There is a difference)
Carol, Your post was not mistaken. I was not in any way saying YOU were irresponsible,..besides, that's none of my business! Neither is having to fund anybody else's.

Subject: RE: BS: Contraception = Abortion
From: Bee
Date: 15 Aug 08 - 01:42 PM

The attitude that getting pregnant and/or having a baby is a 'price' to be paid, or a punishment for sexual activity, or a punishment for being uneducated or careless, really has to be eliminated from the public discourse surrounding birth control.

A baby is not a punishment for a woman's behaviour. Forcing a woman to continue an unwanted pregnancy out of a misguided moral notion that she 'deserves' it is one of the more unpleasant talking points I hear. It is a visible part of the public discourse when exceptions to abortion are considered on the basis of whether the woman's pregnancy results from rape or incest. Such an exception makes it clear that the real reason for wanting to limit a woman's access to abortion has to do with the woman's morality, and not the life of a fetus.

Subject: RE: BS: Contraception = Abortion
From: CarolC
Date: 15 Aug 08 - 01:34 PM

If that post is implying that I need to get responsible myself, I think someone needs to learn some impulse control. Learn to think and ask questions before blurting out the first thing that comes into one's head in order to avoid a serious case of athletes foot-in-mouth.

However, just telling people who aren't behaving responsibly that they should isn't going to help the kids of the ones who don't listen.

Subject: RE: BS: Contraception = Abortion
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 15 Aug 08 - 01:30 PM

Right Carol!...So get responsible now! Schools out!

Subject: RE: BS: Contraception = Abortion
From: CarolC
Date: 15 Aug 08 - 01:26 PM

But they wouldn't be paying the price themselves. Not as long as children are being brought into the world. It's the children who pay the price, and they aren't the ones who have behaved irresponsibly.

Some people seem to not realize that there is life after birth.

Subject: RE: BS: Contraception = Abortion
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 15 Aug 08 - 01:09 PM

SRS, Right! Irresponsible selfish, lazy parents!! Also, Its none of the government's business as to who, why or when people want to fuck. Nor is it ours to fix their stupid, ignorant, thoughtless problems, arising from being so God damned idiotic!~ya; wanna fuck stupidly, pay the price yourself!

Subject: RE: BS: Contraception = Abortion
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 15 Aug 08 - 01:03 PM

So many women can't see that difference..at least BEFORE the act! I get tired of hearing lame people,
talking as if we the public should have to pay for their PERSONAL irresponsibility!!

If sexual ignorance wasn't codified into most public school systems and any frank discussions barred from the public airways, that might be a reasonable observation. But this is a nation where many parents are unable or unwilling to teach their children. We are remarkably Victorian in our sex legislation, so though schools are the place to pass along accurate information, health educators have been severely hobbled by regulations and policies pushed by a small fundamentalist section of the population. They want everyone to see the world in their way, to vilify masturbation and regulate sex and save it for procreation only. They have this influence because they concentrate on subjects that too many Americans are embarrassed to speak out loud about in public venues.



SRS

Subject: RE: BS: Contraception = Abortion
From: GUEST,Guest frm Sanity
Date: 15 Aug 08 - 12:47 PM

Kat, Great!1..I respect you for that! So many women can't see that difference..at least BEFORE the act! I get tired of hearing lame people,
talking as if we the public should have to pay for their PERSONAL irresponsibility!!
Being as this site is primarily for musicians, why not spend more time on perfecting our craft, our gift, instead of making plans to find remedies for prospective stupid acts, of thoughtless and needless heart aches??!!??

Subject: RE: BS: Contraception = Abortion
From: katlaughing
Date: 15 Aug 08 - 12:15 PM

Technically, I did not ask why it even mattered. I just think it is splitting hairs. I do understand the difference between preventing conception and preventing implantation.

Subject: RE: BS: Contraception = Abortion
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 15 Aug 08 - 12:05 PM

Instead of 'making policies' for everybody else, why not decide within yourself how you are going to be accountable for your personal well being..I'll bet abortion isn't in it..I mean, IF you really want the BEST for yourself or your children! I've never talked to a woman yet, who has thought that having an abortion was her FIRST choice, on her road to happiness, and usually has regrets, that she didn't take precautionary measures, rather than having to get one!..(Rape is different, so don't inundate me with that argument).

Subject: RE: BS: Contraception = Abortion
From: Bee
Date: 15 Aug 08 - 11:30 AM

Marion, it is my opinion, based on my experience, that larger organizations such as emedicine and ACOG are sometimes prone to careful obfuscating on subjects that may be controversial, as birth control always is. Public accountability includes not offending that very public. This is quite understandable, given their aim is to be trusted and of service to the broadest possible public audience, which aim would be impeded if they were thought to be partisan on such issues.

I am in total agreement with your point 1, as you will see from my previous post.

On point 2., I believe the physiology is also important, especially given point 1, and I also believe that too much weight has been given to the uncertain science behind the anti-implantation effects of the birth control methods at issue. The site I linked to is not the only (or most recent) source for my information, but I've lost my original resource list to the side-effects of transfer to a new computer.

There is a tendency in medicine, I think, to abandon research on procedures once it is established that they do what it is desired that they do. In this instance, there is no doubt that IUDs and Plan B perform as intended: they prevent pregnancy. My old research pointed out that the theories about IUDs causing inflammation and therefore preventing implantation, for example, were educated theories only, and were never actually confirmed. Just because something is broadly accepted does not mean it is correct, or entirely correct.

Keeping religion out of law is certainly important, but so is making sure that women, including women whose religious principles are at stake, are truthfully informed about their variety of choices, and that includes bringing older birth control science up to date with modern studies if necessary.

Subject: RE: BS: Contraception = Abortion
From: Joe Offer
Date: 15 Aug 08 - 11:04 AM

Take a look at the Jim Wallis article that Jack the Sailor linked to. It's more-or-less my position on the issue, but Wallis says it better. The change in the Democratic Party platform language is a real ray of hope for me, because it takes steps to include us "pro-life, pro-choice" Democrats.

Jim Wallis is a founder of Sojourners, a very interesting social justice lobby.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Contraception = Abortion
From: Marion
Date: 15 Aug 08 - 10:54 AM

Hi Bee. It's not clear to me why you consider Dr. Myer's site to be more credible than emedicine.com or the ACOG. It certainly goes against my instincts as a webuser to put more confidence in an individual's blog than in the work of multiple researchers (i.e., emedicine.com) or in statements by a medical association (i.e, the ACOG). If the larger and more "established" sites are more thorough in listing the different possible effects of a drug or therapy, it's a cheap shot to dismiss this thoroughness as just ass-covering - isn't it just as likely that the higher thoroughness reflects a higher degree of accountability to the public and the health care community?

As for the difference between contraceptive and contra-implantation: Katlaughing and Jack the Sailor ask why it even matters, and Bee suggests that discussing it is detrimental to women's access to reproductive choices. Although I don't personally believe that the difference between contraception and contraimplantation is ethically significant, I do think there are two good reasons to be conscious of the difference:

1. Promoting individual reproductive choices: rightly or wrongly, some women do believe that life begins at conception and would not knowingly choose a birth control method that prevents implantation. If you prescribe an IUD or postcoital birth control to a woman without letting her know that one of the ways these methods work is by preventing implantation, then you're denying her the opportunity to make an informed choice.

2. Defending reproductive choices in the public forum: it is broadly accepted that some birth control methods sometimes work by preventing implantation. That doesn't mean it's an absolute truth - maybe the consensus will change in the future with new evidence - but right now, that is the consensus. If we deny or ignore that, it makes us look ignorant or deceptive, and the anti-abortion advocates can validly point that out. The debate should be about ethics and the place of religion in law, not about the physiology.

Marion (who recognizes the diagram in Dr. Myer's blog from one of my textbooks)

Subject: RE: BS: Contraception = Abortion
From: Paul Burke
Date: 15 Aug 08 - 08:02 AM

If you want to reduce abortion numbers by "making it rare", you are going to have to rethink a lot of policies. Sex education - ignorant people are more likely to get pregnant. Contraception- obvious, but upsets the religious lot, especially if given to kids. Welfare- if you're going to pressure the poor into work, they'll be a lot better off working without bringing up kids. Health care- both parents and kids need it. Immigration- it's a lot easier to stay under the radar if you ahven't got kids.

Perhaps sexual practices too- more oral sex = fewer babies? Just say "Mmmmmmfffff...."

Subject: RE: BS: Contraception = Abortion
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 15 Aug 08 - 06:18 AM

Is that the number one piece of art in the english speaking world on the subject of abortion? Its got three mentions on this thread.

Subject: RE: BS: Contraception = Abortion
From: Amergin
Date: 15 Aug 08 - 06:16 AM

As the song says every sperm is sacred....

Subject: RE: BS: Contraception = Abortion
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 15 Aug 08 - 05:39 AM

It is interesting that I received this in my email yesterday.

A Step Forward on Abortion (by Jim Wallis)

I believe that it is part of Obama's promise to be a new kind of President. The platform seems to be to fight abortion by making it rare. There seems to be a lot of buy in for this plan from a high number of women's groups and religious groups.

To the people much closer to the front lines of this question, I ask three questions? Is it as Rev. Wallis suggests, a real step forward? Is it something that could actually help (instead of just more entitlements)? Should this be the start of a new thread?

I am especially interested in hearing from Kent and Joe and the women who have been so thoughtful on this thread. But of course any insights are welcome.

Subject: RE: BS: Contraception = Abortion
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 15 Aug 08 - 05:29 AM

I think I agree with you robomatic. If you are saying this. The line must be drawn somewhere. It is the woman's body after all and there are serious risks.

As I understand Roe v Wade. The decision is that it is against the law to abort a baby which could live on its own except where the is the only recourse to preserve the life of the mother.

Its not what one would want in an ideal world. But obviously, this is not an ideal world.

Subject: RE: BS: Contraception = Abortion
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 15 Aug 08 - 01:54 AM

This is an outrage!!..How could they possibly be thinking that?? There should be all the abortions and birth control possible..Made available to everyone over the age of...well, as soon as they get out of diapers!!...I think everyone should have an abortion....especially all those who are for it...but already born!

Subject: RE: BS: Contraception = Abortion
From: robomatic
Date: 15 Aug 08 - 12:30 AM

I think it is just as ridiculous to call a fertilized egg a baby at two days as to call an unborn baby a fetus at 250 days.

The more I know the more I respect the "Roe versus Wade" decision.

I know some school teachers who would like to put the 'human' stamp on folks only after the sixth grade.

Subject: RE: BS: Contraception = Abortion
From: Joe Offer
Date: 15 Aug 08 - 12:23 AM

I think it's pretty well known here that I'm very active in the Catholic Church. On the issue of abortion, I call myself pro-choice pro-life. In church gatherings, I've argued that if the Catholic Church (and others) really wanted to reduce the number of abortions, they might find a good ally in Planned Parenthood. As I understand it, a Primary Goal of Planned Parenthood is to reduce the need for abortion by responsible family planning. I talked with the local medical director of Planned Parenthood, and he told me his organization works hard to provide alternatives to abortion.
But too often, the human issues in this matter are forgotten, because everybody is so concentrated on winning the debate instead of solving the problem.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Contraception = Abortion
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 14 Aug 08 - 11:50 PM

>>John Hardly is okay, Jack, articulate and thoughtful, though I do find the argument this time surprisingly far right even for John. Repeating the party line without checking its veracity. Statistically it's way off.

OK,

Thank you again though for thoroughly rebutting the bull. Seeing the phrase "baby killer" in a discussion shows me that the user of the phase, is only playing lip service to "reason".

Subject: RE: BS: Contraception = Abortion
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 14 Aug 08 - 11:26 PM

Kent,

I seriously considered asking "What difference does it make?" But the difference obviously means something to you. Since it is an important difference to some people, shouldn't it be discussed in public rather than sneaked in. Its not like there would be no people in congress willing to put forth the case.

Subject: RE: BS: Contraception = Abortion
From: Bee
Date: 14 Aug 08 - 10:06 PM

Kent, the sites you refer to all have a vested interest in covering their asses in regard to making sure no one can say they specifically didn't mention all medical opinion on the effects of these birth control strategies, thereby eliminating the possibility of someone complaining they were recommended an 'abortifacient' against their religious principles.

The site I referred to, while obviously written by a person who disapproves of the current American government, is written by a scientist who, as long as I have read the site and according to the opinion of other scientists and medical practitioners who contribute commentary to the site, is extremely competent and respected in his field. He is not constrained by the need to address the general public in an official capacity, as are the personnel of the sites you refer to.

You will believe what you want to believe, but please carefully consider the added burden you wish to place on those women who are not willing to have an abortion, but who do need a variety of reliable and safe methods of birth control. Actual, real, and recent science says it is unlikely that these methods now being called 'abortifacient' are unlikely to act in that fashion. Denying women, including and possibly most hurtfully, women who believe that life begins at conception, these particular alternatives on very shaky politically motivated 'scientific' grounds, is in my opinion reprehensible.

And I fervently hope you are not one of those men who wishes to control women's reproductive behaviour while not having a clue exactly how women's bodies actually function and the many, many variables that make one birth control method work for a woman and another not. Narrowing women's choices is a brutal step backwards.

Subject: RE: BS: Contraception = Abortion
From: katlaughing
Date: 14 Aug 08 - 09:04 PM

Well said, both times, SRS.

With all due respect, Kent, I think they are splitting hairs there.

Subject: RE: BS: Contraception = Abortion
From: Kent Davis
Date: 14 Aug 08 - 08:42 PM

Bee,

Perhaps the article you reference, "Why the Wingnuts Hate Plan B", is a fair and balanced bit of medical science. However, the gynecologists with whom I did my residency seemed to disagree with its conclusion regarding the way IUDs and "morning after" pills work.

Consider this information from emedicine, a non-political site, one that I have often used in my practice. Notice that even this site, which uses the term "contraception" to refer to these technologies, states that they work not only by preventing conception, but ALSO by preventing implantation, which was my point. http://www.emedicinehealth.com/birth_control_intrauterine_devices_iuds/article_em.htm

" How an IUD Works
Hormonal and copper IUDs work in different ways. With a copper IUD, a small amount of copper is released into the uterus. This type of IUD does not affect ovulation or the menstrual cycle. Copper IUDs prevent sperm from being able to go into the egg by immobilizing the sperm on the way to the fallopian tubes. If an egg does become fertilized, implantation on the wall of the uterus is prevented because copper changes the lining of the uterus.

With hormonal IUDs, a small amount of progestin or a similar hormone is released into the uterus. These hormones thicken cervical mucus and make it difficult for sperm to enter the cervix. Hormonal IUDs also slow down the growth of the uterine lining, making it inhabitable for fertilized eggs."

Also notice: http://www.emedicinehealth.com/emergency_contraception/page4_em.htm

"How Emergency Contraception Works
Emergency contraception prevents pregnancy by stopping or delaying release of an egg (ovulation), blocking fertilization by affecting the egg or sperm, or preventing implantation by making the lining of the uterus inhospitable for pregnancy."

Also consider this information about Depo-Provera, from ACOG, the American College of Obstetricians and Gynecologists: http://www.acog.org/publications/patient_education/bp159.cfm

"Injections may decrease the thickness of the endometrium (lining of the uterus), which can affect implantation (when the egg attaches to the uterus)."

Kent

Subject: RE: BS: Contraception = Abortion
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 14 Aug 08 - 08:37 PM

John Hardly is okay, Jack, articulate and thoughtful, though I do find the argument this time surprisingly far right even for John. Repeating the party line without checking its veracity. Statistically it's way off.

There are some topics that after we air our opinions we have to agree to disagree.

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: Contraception = Abortion
From: Bill D
Date: 14 Aug 08 - 07:15 PM

The thing is, some people adopt a stance based on some 'higher principle' that they feel can't be compromised on. Thereafter, ANY reasoning, no matter how awkward, that they can find to avoid admitting how things really are gets used...

Subject: RE: BS: Contraception = Abortion
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 14 Aug 08 - 06:54 PM

I think that Hardly's stream of frantic, nonsensical, divisive, arguments have been firmly dealt with with reason and hard facts. Thank you ladies. Despite his nominal quest for truth, I don't expect to see him challenge your well made points.

Getting back to the topic of the thread. It seems to me that the IUD among other methods covered by these "guide lines" have not ever been considered abortion and that while Kent may have made some good points on a technical level. Defining them legally as abortion at the bureaucratic level, seems to me to be a pretty clear case of the Bush administration overstepping its authority.

As I said before. It looks like some people who believe in slippery slopes trying to set us on one.

Subject: RE: BS: Contraception = Abortion
From: Amos
Date: 14 Aug 08 - 06:46 PM

According to a news report on NPR today, the claims of mental health damage to women by abortion is statistically meaningless. Compared to mental health histories of women who carried unplanned pregnancies to term the incidence of mental health problems is statistically not significantly different.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Contraception = Abortion
From: Bobert
Date: 14 Aug 08 - 06:41 PM

That was what I was referring to earlier, SRS... I heard the last 15 minutes of the show and there was one woman who scared the living crud outta me with her radical positions... Very scarey woan, indeed, and this apparently is waht I have referred to here where many in the pro-life movement have gone off the deep end... They don't even want birth control... They want total abstainence unless it is for making a baby...

B~