BS: Contraception = Abortion

Subject: RE: BS: Contraception = Abortion
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 14 Aug 08 - 05:29 PM

Bill D and Kat are correct. John, you've picked up a radicalized version of the topic at hand, one that doesn't represent "the status quo" at all. There are many restrictions upon abortion, from state legislation to the restrictions on federal funds for clinics that offer birth control, and employer meddling with insurance benefits. If you can't afford it, it might as well not be legal or available. For example: usually every time a Republican administration comes into office, abortion is no longer available for federal employees on their insurance, but it is covered by most insurance as a gynecological procedure when politics isn't involved. Why? Abortions are cheaper than childbirth. This is the only time I can think of when the natural inclination of insurance companies to avoid spending money actually does something useful for women. When it is allowed and practitioners haven't been murdered in their homes.

My answer to this was to raise my children with information about their sexuality, about birth control and STDs, and we pay for birth control for my college-aged daughter. When you can't afford something, you're less likely to use it. We want her to have as many choices as possible, and that includes choosing when to have her children. We will love her children when the time comes, whenever that time comes, but when she has them should be her choice, not yours.

No woman should have to resign herself to the fact that she's now a baby-making machine when she finds someone to love and be intimate with. Human ingenuity has managed to separate sex for pleasure from sex for procreation. This is a good thing.

Accidents happen. Yes, accidents. I don't buy the argument that this small collection of cells is a child, it is a small collection of cells that for many natural reasons might not make it to viability, and maternal choice NEEDS to be one of those reasons.

Unintended pregnancy can be as terrifying as being told you have cancer or some other life-threatening condition. Pregnancy is a life-threatening condition. It is earth shattering and if you're not ready, can thrust a woman into a world where she doesn't want to go (it also contributes to the horrors of child abuse today.) That is psychologically harmful if you can't make the choice to abort the fetus.

Most abortions are in the first trimester, so far ahead of a point of viability that all of these sensational claims of "killing a fetus accidentally born alive" can be seen for what they are--flagrant scare tactics.

There was a discussion on Diane Rehm today about this issue, and one woman was discussing these new proposed laws, arguing that "psychological distress" resulting from abortion was a reason for prohibiting abortion. She didn't get far with such a weak argument and specious "studies" behind her; she was clearly grasping at yet another straw to try to remove a procedure that the majority of the population feels needs to be available. They may not like it, but it needs to be available.

If we did a reasonable job of teaching our children the truth about sex, disease, birth control and pregnancy, a lot of these abortions WOULDN'T be necessary. But those people who don't want abortions are apparently also afraid of sex and think that telling young people about sex just encourages it. Not telling them about sex simply means they'll try it anyway, but with little or no information about what they're getting into.

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: Contraception = Abortion
From: Becca72
Date: 14 Aug 08 - 04:14 PM

I agree completely with Kat.

I don't know about everywhere but in my home state it is illegal to have an abortion after 10 weeks gestation.

From my cold, dead hand they can pry my Depo-Provera.

Subject: RE: BS: Contraception = Abortion
From: Bill D
Date: 14 Aug 08 - 04:06 PM

"I think abortion is always a very sad thing and a cause for grief, even when it is a necessary decision....." etc...

Exactly, Joe... we need to do everything we can to reduce and avoid gratuitous abortions. Having had to deal with a necessary one [after an amnio-centesis!]many years ago, I know quite well that it is not an easy thing. Even the doctor we had was conflicted, but agreed it WAS necessary. I am just glad we were able to make the decision without interference to make the whole thing harder.

Subject: RE: BS: Contraception = Abortion
From: katlaughing
Date: 14 Aug 08 - 03:43 PM

I believe your sources are incorrect, John. Read on:

Roe v. Wade is the 1973 U.S. Supreme Court decision that recognized that a woman has a constitutional right to decide whether to continue her pregnancy. The Court also ruled, however, that after fetal viability (that is, the point at which the fetus is able to live outside the woman's body, with or without artificial aid), states may restrict abortions or ban them entirely, except when necessary to protect the woman's life or health.

and:

How is abortion legally restricted in the United States?

    * States can restrict abortion or prohibit it entirely after viability—except when necessary to protect the woman's life or health—and the vast majority of states have done so. The most common restrictions on early abortion are parental involvement requirements, state-directed counseling and waiting periods, and limitations on public funding.

How many states have parental involvement laws in effect?

    * As of November 2006, 34 states require some parental involvement for a minor to obtain an abortion; 21 states require parental consent only; 11 states require parental notification only; two states require both parental consent and notification.

and,

As of November 2006, 32 states require that women receive counseling, which can include receiving specific information detailed by the state, before an abortion may be performed; in addition, six states require two visits to the provider because counseling must be provided in person before the waiting period begins.

It is also good to note the following: the abortion rate peaked in 1980 and has been declining ever since.

All of the above was from The Guttmacher Institute.

More info from that site includes these stats:

In the United States, nearly nine in 10 abortions occur in the first 12 weeks of pregnancy and 56% occur in the first eight weeks.

Lots more info at that site.

Subject: RE: BS: Contraception = Abortion
From: John Hardly
Date: 14 Aug 08 - 03:36 PM

No, kat, I am saying that there are no legal restrictions. The status quo is that there are no legal restrictions on abortion. But try to even hint that there should be and that makes you an extremist.

The status quo is as extreme as it gets. You can't get any further "pro-choice" than the status quo -- no legal restrictions on abortions. Though rationalized as "fetuses" and "zygotes", KNOWN babies are executed without going through due process. NOBODY aborts zygotes unless chemically. That means that MOST of the millions of abortions are committed against babies with beating hearts and at least mostly formed bodies.

KNOWN babies are executed without going through due process. The definition of due process, to the American pro-choice people need be nothing more than "inconvenient".

Subject: RE: BS: Contraception = Abortion
From: Bobert
Date: 14 Aug 08 - 03:27 PM

And I agree with Kat 100%... It's not up to a government , domanated by men, to make these heartfelat descisons for woman as if the women don't have enough intellegence to deal with the complexities of that decision... That is exactly the way the Taliban operates...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Contraception = Abortion
From: katlaughing
Date: 14 Aug 08 - 03:25 PM

I have no problem with parents being involved, I have no problems with comprehensive group couseling prior to abortion, I have no problem with adoption people having a input, I have no problem in sex education being taught to kids well before puberty, I have no problem with making contraceptives more available to prevent pregancies and I have no problems with more Public Service ads that are aimed at cutting down unwanted pregnancies...

That is the way most pro-choice people feel, imo, with the possible exception of the parents being involved in certain situations.

Subject: RE: BS: Contraception = Abortion
From: Bobert
Date: 14 Aug 08 - 03:15 PM

Joe,

My aplogies to you, sir... I had to reread you post several times but your positions are reasonable, as are Kent's...

Actually, I don't find myself all that apart from John's but we still do have this divide...

I think it is fair to revist why exactly Roe v. Wade came about in the first place... We didn't have these moral positions as much as we had access divisions... Rich and middle class white women were having their little weekends in Mexico (wink, wink) while por woe3mn, both balck and white were bleeding to death in rooms set up behind gas stations... That was the story then...

Now we have the moralist who don't even believe in abortion if the mother's health is in danger, of if the pregnancy was caused by rape or incest... These are the folks who are contolling the pro-life debate... They have scared pharmacists from dispersing birth control bills... They have given the green light to nutballs to shopot and kill abortion doctors... They now want every form of birth control made illegal... There was one on Diane Rheame today... Why is it that reasonable pro-lifers don't have the microphone these days... If I were a pro-lifer I wouldn't admit to it because the movenemnt has been taken over by radical Talibanish hut-balls... I think it's way past time for all pro-lifers to reign in these nutballs because these people are making you look bad... And they are getting microphone time, too...

Lastly, when I say I am flexable, yeah, I am... I have no problem with parents being involved, I have no problems with comprehensive group couseling prior to abortion, I have no problem with adoption people having a input, I have no problem in sex education being taught to kids well before puberty, I have no problem with making contraceptives more available to prevent pregancies and I have no problems with more Public Service ads that are aimed at cutting down unwanted pregnancies...

Actually, for myself, I am anti-abortion unless it was to save my wife's life is in danger but. like Amos, believe that the goverment's role isn't to finf more ways to intervene into our personal freedoms...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Contraception = Abortion
From: katlaughing
Date: 14 Aug 08 - 03:07 PM

One side will stand for nothing but any abortion at any time for any reason. And they have won. That is the status quo.

Every pro-choice person I have known and worked with, would vehemently disagree with this broad brush statement, John. And, it has certainly NOT been the status quo. No doctor of any kind will just blithely perform late-term abortions at the drop of a hat, nor will any woman. It is a serious and potentially fatal surgical procedure for the woman to say nothing of the psychological and spiritual implications. It is NOT an easy decision for anyone. The way you put it, you'd think there were women by the hordes demanding an abortion just short of the nine month delivery.

BillD, I agree with you completely.

Until it is that way, though, I also believe no man should have any say in what a woman can and cannot do with her body.

Subject: RE: BS: Contraception = Abortion
From: John Hardly
Date: 14 Aug 08 - 02:59 PM

Tell you what, Amos,

You grant me that you believe in the immaculate conception and I'll grant you that sperm and ova are human life in the same way the two joined together are.

You're venturing to win a debate. You'll win here (on the mudcat, and against me) because that kind of reasoning works here. But it also proves that debate is not always a good means of finding truth -- just who is better at bullshit.

Subject: RE: BS: Contraception = Abortion
From: Joe Offer
Date: 14 Aug 08 - 02:58 PM

Well, from my point of view, life begins when the sperm and the ovum join and begin to multiply. There doesn't seem to be a better place to put the dividing line. So, for me, any destruction of that mass of cells, is taking a life. That's my perspective, although I'm quite open to other positions.

But we take life for a number of reasons, and some of those reasons are very good ones - so I do not rule out the necessity of abortion in certain circumstances, even if it does mean taking a life. However, I think there are always seriously negative implications to taking a life, so the decision to have an abortion must be taken very seriously.

Now, the left-wing extremists among you will call me an anti-abortion nutcase. You right-wing extremists will call me a baby killer. But I'm neither.

Neither extreme is going to win in this debate. If you wish to keep a rigid, "take-no-prisoners" stance, you can hold onto the belief that you are right. And although you may go to your grave being reight, you will never make any progress. This is a discussion that demands compromise, tolerance, and understanding.

I think abortion is always a very sad thing and a cause for grief, even when it is a necessary decision. I would like to see a reduction in the number of abortions, but I would not like to see any sort of prohibition and resumption of black-market abortions. I think the best remedy is responsible birth control - most effectively and responsibly done before the act of sexual intercourse. And Bobert, I'm still waiting to see evidence that there is a credible threat to the practice of such birth control.

-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: BS: Contraception = Abortion
From: Amos
Date: 14 Aug 08 - 02:53 PM

We also know that sperm is human life.

Cancer, too.

Oh, and ova are certainly human life.

Why should your definitions be the governing consideration in this question?


A

Subject: RE: BS: Contraception = Abortion
From: Bill D
Date: 14 Aug 08 - 02:52 PM

By the way...we should not NEED to resort to the Constitution to make common sense, but I'm glad nontheless that it does specify the separation of church & state.

Subject: RE: BS: Contraception = Abortion
From: Bill D
Date: 14 Aug 08 - 02:46 PM

'Almost' all serious attempts to restrict certain birth-control methods are based on religious grounds.
SINCE the Constitution says that religion is protected but not required, it follows that NO ONE should be bound by laws attempting to impose religiously based controls on others.

I do not care how you attempt to muddy the matter with 'definitions' claimed to be derived from biology, most those who want abortions and 'morning after' pills banned are relying on their interpretation of some particular religious system for their final argument.

The answer is simple: Treat the issue according to YOUR conscience when it directly affects YOU, and leave everyone else alone!

Subject: RE: BS: Contraception = Abortion
From: Joe Offer
Date: 14 Aug 08 - 02:25 PM

Bobert, can you cite instances where people who have any hope of getting their way, "attack the entire idea of birth control, short of abstainance"? Sure, there are some marginal freaks who take that extreme position, but your implication is that the Bush Administration is doing this.
Do you have evidence?
I'm sorry, but I see no credible threat to the "normal" forms of birth control, like pills and condoms and vascectomies and tubal ligations. Your alarmist position just tends to polarize and demonize.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Contraception = Abortion
From: John Hardly
Date: 14 Aug 08 - 02:23 PM

But we KNOW that it is human life. In EVERY other case in US law, the burden of proof falls to the one who wants to commit what is counter to life. We don't imprison, much less put to death a person who has not been found guilty by due process. And yet, by your very admission, you don't know when life begins...

...and yet, in your "not knowing" you are claiming for yourself and others the right to kill it.

The burden of proof is on the wrong party

Subject: RE: BS: Contraception = Abortion
From: Amos
Date: 14 Aug 08 - 02:11 PM

The question, John, is this. The crimes among individuals you describe are a matter of the commons and how it should be organized to provide the maximum of good (life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness) to its participants.

The moral codes of government are those of consent by the governed.

Birth control, whether contraception or contraimplantation, is an individual choice, and must be chosen according to the moral lights of the individual concerned.

The notion that a diploid (if that is the right term for the conceptus) is a legal individual participating in the commons, as distinguished from a personal process in the life of a separate individual, is the core concept being offered by those who think such matters should be dictated by government in the same way that social crimes are encoded.

I fail to see the reasoning for this argument. But I see plainly that encroaching in this way on the individual's right to live her life according to her own moral code is a deep violation of the core social contract for the nation.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Contraception = Abortion
From: John Hardly
Date: 14 Aug 08 - 02:05 PM

*I know I'm going to hate myself for this, but*

Bobert,

Let me try this again. You say that pro-lifers are inflexible (in your words, "I can be very open and willing to find middle ground but the pro-lifers have no flexibility".

Nearly EVERY pro-lifer I know believes in abortion in cases of rape, incest, or to save the life of the mother. MANY pro-lifers I know, merely want to put an end to both late-term abortions (unless for the life of the mother) and post birth killing (when the baby is accidentally born live). Other pro-lifers I know (just like everyone else I know) know babies born after very short terms and have thus concluded that many abortions are being performed on "viable" babies, and would like limitations on how late an abortion can be performed.

In other words, almost EVERY pro-lifer I know is "flexible".

Now, to illustrate your like flexibility...which abortions are you willing to have limited?

Subject: RE: BS: Contraception = Abortion
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 14 Aug 08 - 01:51 PM

Yeah Hardly,

If yer not fer us, yer agin us heh heh heh.

Subject: RE: BS: Contraception = Abortion
From: Bobert
Date: 14 Aug 08 - 01:46 PM

That's pure unaltered, 100 proff, bullsh*t, John...

It ain't the pro-choicers who are now against bringing down every kind of concievable birth control, short of abstince... If yopu are a pro-choicer the you had better look around at what your cohorts are up to...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Contraception = Abortion
From: John Hardly
Date: 14 Aug 08 - 01:40 PM

If an unmarried couple conceives, is the foetus an illegal immigrant?

See, and I usually missread "Illegitimate" as "Illegible" not as "Illegal". When that happens to me, I put on my reading glasses. Maybe you otter try the same fix.

Subject: RE: BS: Contraception = Abortion
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 14 Aug 08 - 01:37 PM

Yeah?

Just what is the source of this "moral code" that says a fertilized egg is a "baby"?

Subject: RE: BS: Contraception = Abortion
From: John Hardly
Date: 14 Aug 08 - 01:36 PM

Bobert,

One side will stand for nothing but any abortion at any time for any reason. And they have won. That is the status quo.

The other side is made up of...

...those who don't believe in abortion-as-birth-control (but don't have any problem with the logic of abortion in the case of rape or incest or the life of the mother)

...those who don't think that a baby should be ground into parts and sucked out when, if labor was induced, that baby could survive. (but don't have any problem with understanding the logic of abortion in cases of rape or incest, or for the life of the mother)

...those who don't think it's right to induce labor and then kill the exiting baby before it makes it all the way out of the birth canal. (but don't have any problem with not limiting any form of birth control up to a point)

...and, yes, even those who don't think that "birth control" that aborts an implanted fetus is "birth control". (but don't have any problem with birth control that does not abort)

And now you are telling me that the first side -- the one that has had their way for over thirty years killing over 40 million babies and will consider NO restrictions -- is the side that represents moderation and compromise?

Subject: RE: BS: Contraception = Abortion
From: Amos
Date: 14 Aug 08 - 01:35 PM

Yeah, fair enough, John Hardly.

If an unmarried couple conceives, is the foetus an illegal immigrant?

A

Subject: RE: BS: Contraception = Abortion
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 14 Aug 08 - 01:34 PM

The person calling the impedance of a probably not yet fertilized egg "killing a baby" is speaking for "reason".

Is that where the level of discourse should be?

Subject: RE: BS: Contraception = Abortion
From: John Hardly
Date: 14 Aug 08 - 01:32 PM

Anyone who believes that moral codes should be the business of governments is encouraged to move to countries where such practices are part of the system. In the UNited States, such purely moralistic proscriptions have NO place in government. Anyone who tries to weasel them into the halls of government should be required to memorize the Bill of Rights verbatim and pass a close exam on the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution.

Moral codes always have, always will, and always should inform our laws. Without them we wouldn't restrict murder, theft, rape....basically, anything.

Subject: RE: BS: Contraception = Abortion
From: John Hardly
Date: 14 Aug 08 - 01:30 PM

Bobert,

One side will stand for nothing but any abortion at any time for any reason. And they have won. That is the status quo.

The other side is made up of...

...those who don't believe in abortion-as-birth-control
...those who don't think that a baby should be ground into parts and sucked out when, if labor was induced, that baby could survive.
...those who don't think it's right to induce labor and then kill the exiting baby before it makes it all the way out of the birth canal.
...and, yes, even those who don't think that "birth control" that aborts an implanted fetus is "birth control".

And now you are telling me that the first side -- the one that has had their way for over thirty years killing over 40 million babies and will consider NO restrictions -- is the side that represents moderation and compromise?

Subject: RE: BS: Contraception = Abortion
From: Amos
Date: 14 Aug 08 - 01:23 PM

Anyone who believes that moral codes should be the business of governments is encouraged to move to countries where such practices are part of the system. In the UNited States, such purely moralistic proscriptions have NO place in government. Anyone who tries to weasel them into the halls of government should be required to memorize the Bill of Rights verbatim and pass a close exam on the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution. THis is just meddling, AFAIAC.


A

Subject: RE: BS: Contraception = Abortion
From: Bobert
Date: 14 Aug 08 - 01:17 PM

Yeah, John, it is...

The new strategy to take out roe v. wade is to go for broke and attack the entire idea of birth control, short of abstainance... The roe-haters have put together a concerted effort of late to do just that... Even Fian Rheame had one of these roe-haters on her show today... Five years ago this wouldn't have ever happened...

This roe-haters have turned the conversation away from roe towardjust about any kind of birth control hoping that in the end "pro-choicers" will circle their wagons and be happy just to any kind of birth control short of Talibanish anstainence...

That is exactly what is going down here... Don't take a weatherman to tell which way the wind blows...

Hey, I can be very open and willing to find middle ground but the pro-lifers have no flexibility... They are like brownshirts... They are true beleivers... And after Roe it will be what kind of clothes are acceptable... The are 100% intoleramt... Juast like the Taliban... No rrom for compromise... Just their way our the highway... They all need to go back and reaquiant themselves with why the US is the US rather that the colobies...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Contraception = Abortion
From: PoppaGator
Date: 14 Aug 08 - 12:58 PM

I received the MoveOn email, and signed the petition, erlier today.

My take is that the Republicans in the outgoing executive branch are doing what they can to maximize profiteering by the health insurance industry while appealing to their favoriate sector of the electorate ~ those whose fear and hatred of sexuality trumps every other issue, and can be easily used to influence them to vote agaisnt their own economic interest.

Subject: RE: BS: Contraception = Abortion
From: John Hardly
Date: 14 Aug 08 - 11:14 AM

Bobert, is that really how you read Joe and Kent's posts?

People have tried to stop the killing of babies for over thirty years now without success. I think it's safe to assume that you're going to be able to keep your "reproductive freedom" for another thirty years or so. Right now you can kill your babies all the way from conception, right up to the very point of delivery. How much more free do you want it?

Subject: RE: BS: Contraception = Abortion
From: Bee
Date: 14 Aug 08 - 11:06 AM

Please at least read the information in the first article I linked to above. The 'morning after pill', sometimes called 'Plan B', does not affect implantation. It prevents/delays the ovary from producing an egg at what may be an extremely inconvenient or stressful time (forexample, after a rape, or aftercoercive intercourse of any kind)for an individual woman.

Bad enough that many want to restrict women's access to reproductive control alternatives, worse that they try to use the public's general ignorance or misapprehension of human reproduction to further their aims.

Subject: RE: BS: Contraception = Abortion
From: frogprince
Date: 14 Aug 08 - 10:54 AM

A question for those who have moral issues with the use of an IUD or a morning after pill:

Should doctors report miscarriages to the legal authorities, so that a criminal investigation can be conducted? An already-conceived human organism perishes in the event of miscarriage; what of the possibility that the mother may have contributed to that, by criminal negligence in failing to take proper care or even by intentional misconduct?

Subject: RE: BS: Contraception = Abortion
From: Bobert
Date: 14 Aug 08 - 10:45 AM

Voice of reason???

Sounds to me like the "abstainance only" philosphy of the Bush administration is the only accepted birth control practice that some folks can accept... Very narrow minded... And not at all realistic... Might of fact, very Talibanish...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Contraception = Abortion
From: John Hardly
Date: 14 Aug 08 - 09:44 AM

Thanks for being voices of reason, Joe and Kent.

Subject: RE: BS: Contraception = Abortion
From: Bee
Date: 14 Aug 08 - 09:41 AM

Kent is NOT 'quite right'. There is considerable biological evidence that he is not right. I refer those interested in understanding how IUDs and Plan B (morning after pill) work to the following articles, written by a biologist who actually understands reproduction at its very beginnings.

http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2006/04/why_the_wingnuts_hate_plan_b.php

http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2008/08/blurring_the_distinction_betwe.php

Subject: RE: BS: Contraception = Abortion
From: Donuel
Date: 14 Aug 08 - 09:00 AM

It is true, in these final days of the Bush administration, they are throwing all sorts of bones to the fundalmentalist christians.
The NIH has recently had to respond to a flurry of radical Bush health decrees that are unconstitutional to at least one ammendment and as as many as 3.

Political appointees with as much medical knowledge as 'FEMA Brownie' had with hurricanes, are piling on with shocking ignorance and divine decree.

My best friend has done what she could to temper or sideline the worst of these new illegal Bush rules as well as these new road blocks to scientific inquiry and free speech.

These comments reflect first hand knowledge and is not my typical fare of editorial satire.

I have mentioned this recent surge against science and medicine before. Even travel is banned to scientists who might discuss subjects that "are against the American way of (pro) Life".
Funny that Bush went to China, the abortion capital of the world, anyway.

Subject: RE: BS: Contraception = Abortion
From: Bobert
Date: 14 Aug 08 - 08:50 AM

There we go, boys... God don't want you doin' that stuff... Plus, it'll make you blind... Sho nuff will...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Contraception = Abortion
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 14 Aug 08 - 08:30 AM

Every sperm is sacred
Every sperm is great
When a sperm is wasted
God gets quite irate...

Subject: RE: BS: Contraception = Abortion
From: Bobert
Date: 14 Aug 08 - 07:29 AM

Well, I reckon the next step is makin' male masturbation illegal becuase it also is abortion...

"Them sperms 'sposed to make babies, Johnny, so you leave 'um in there for that purpose, ya hear..." (spit)

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Contraception = Abortion
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 14 Aug 08 - 06:21 AM

Depo Provera and the IUD (the one that uses hormones) only have the prevention of implantation as a SECONDARY function. Their PRIMARY function is still contraception.

Subject: RE: BS: Contraception = Abortion
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 14 Aug 08 - 05:51 AM

The legal definition of contraception versus abortion is clear enough isn't it? So now the Prude Patrol wants to change the legal definition of contraception and abortion to change the law. Is it ever the President's job to change the law?

Mr. Bush!?? What did the Constitution ever do to you? Why do you hate it so?

Subject: RE: BS: Contraception = Abortion
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 14 Aug 08 - 05:24 AM

Cobblers.

Sex good
Abstinence bad

And that's from someone who does far too much abstaining.

Subject: RE: BS: Contraception = Abortion
From: Joe Offer
Date: 14 Aug 08 - 03:37 AM

Well, Kent is quite correct. The usual methods of birth control - condoms, "the pill," tubal ligation, and vascectiomy - prevent the fertilization of the ovum. The methods Kent specified prevent the implantation of the already-fertilized ovum, which is a different matter more akin to a miscarriage. And yes, I suppose you could call it abortion, but that's adding a lot of "spin" to it.

I don't really have an opinion on things like the "morning after" remedies - but one could certainly argue that they are something other than contraceptives, since the common definition of conception has already taken place. I do think it's preferable to prevent conception in the first place - there's far more moral clarity in the decision, then.

Seems to me that the liberals can be every bit as blind and doctrinaire as the conservatives on this issue. This is not a black-and-white, right-and-wrong matter, despite what both sides of the issue like to say.

To my mind, the "MoveOn" message sounds as much like propaganda as the "pro-life" stuff does. I stopped subscribing to the MoveOn e-mails because they were all "We're right and they're wrong" ideology. Made me ashamed to call myself a liberal.


-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Contraception = Abortion
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 14 Aug 08 - 02:37 AM

Kent Davis,

Are you one of those people who is against certain things because you feel they might be steps toward a slippery slope? I usually am not. But your last post showed me a view of such a slippery slope that must look very tempting to the type of knuckleheaded fundamentalist that would approve the rule change described in the Moveon memo.

The de facto Bush Administration line on contraception seems to be "Its wrong. It promotes promiscuity." Their AIDS funding in Africa shows that. So the culture warriors they have illegally placed throughout the government are fighting against contraception.

Subject: RE: BS: Contraception = Abortion
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 14 Aug 08 - 02:14 AM

Hmm, might lead to an increase in interest in oral or anal sex (preferably in that order)

Subject: RE: BS: Contraception = Abortion
From: Kent Davis
Date: 14 Aug 08 - 12:56 AM

A careful reading of the above shows that it is misleading to say that the Bush administration is equating contraception and abortion. It is equating SOME practices commonly called "contraception" with abortion.

The administration is not, for example, equating condom use with abortion. Nor is it equating vasectomy or tubal ligation or the rhythm method or coitus interuptus or celibacy or "combination" oral contraceptives with abortion. The practices in question are "morning after" pills, progestin-only pills, Depo-Provera, and IUDs.

These practices can sometimes actually prevent conception but they also sometimes allow conception while preventing implantation. Preventing implantation results in the death of the conceptus. Therefore, calling these practices "contraception" is misleading.

I have had more than one fervently pro-life patient learn, to her horror, that what her gynecologist prescribed for her as "contraception" would be more accurately called "contra-implantation". Although these practices are not usually called abortions, they do exactly what anti-abortion advocates object to: they kill the conceptus. Regardless of one's views on abortion, surely we can agree that marketing an anti-implantation technology as if it worked solely by preventing conception is, at best, consumer fraud.

Kent

Subject: RE: BS: Contraception = Abortion
From: Barry Finn
Date: 14 Aug 08 - 12:42 AM

I saw this too & at 1st had to check to see if it wasn't one of those online jokes, found out it's not only a joke but so's the source. The White House is now the officially the "Federal Funny Farm"

Barry

Subject: RE: BS: Contraception = Abortion
From: Peace
Date: 14 Aug 08 - 12:25 AM

The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has limits.

Subject: RE: BS: Contraception = Abortion
From: robomatic
Date: 14 Aug 08 - 12:11 AM

You know who does the most abortions?



God