BS: Gun Sales Are Up

Subject: BS: Gun Sales Are Up
From: Riginslinger
Date: 07 Nov 08 - 02:28 PM

Obama is already bringing recovery to the economy. Gun sales are up. This from the NYT:

DENVER — Sales of handguns, rifles and ammunition have surged in the last week, according to gun store owners around the nation who describe a wave of buyers concerned that an Obama administration will curtail their right to bear arms.

"He's a gun-snatcher," said Jim Pruett, owner of Jim Pruett's Guns and Ammo in northwest Houston, which was packed with shoppers on Thursday.

"He wants to take our guns from us and create a socialist society policed by his own police force," added Mr. Pruett, a former radio personality, of President-elect Barack Obama.

Mr. Pruett said that sales last Saturday, just before Election Day, ran about seven times higher than a typical good Saturday.

A spot check by reporters in four other states easily found Mr. Pruett's comments echoed from both sides of the counter.

David Nelson, a co-owner of Montana Ordnance & Supply in Missoula, Mont., said his buyers were "awake and aware and see a dangerous trend."

Mr. Nelson said sales at his store had risen about 30 percent since Mr. Obama declared his candidacy. "People are concerned about overreaching legislation from Washington," he said. "They are educating themselves on the Internet."

In Colorado, would-be gun buyers set a one-day record

Subject: RE: BS: Gun Sales Are Up
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 07 Nov 08 - 02:32 PM

I do love a totally unbiased post, from someone without an axe to grind, or an agenda to pursue.

XG

Subject: RE: BS: Gun Sales Are Up
From: gnu
Date: 07 Nov 08 - 02:35 PM

Good idea. When people wake up and tell their government to stop toting guns in foreign lands, they will need someone to whoop. And, charity begins at home.

If they can't shoot ferinners, they'll come after folks at home. Adolf did.

Subject: RE: BS: Gun Sales Are Up
From: gnu
Date: 07 Nov 08 - 02:36 PM

Oh, now... we all know it's all tongue in cheek.

Subject: RE: BS: Gun Sales Are Up
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 07 Nov 08 - 02:37 PM

Very clever marketing there. As you'd expect.

Subject: RE: BS: Gun Sales Are Up
From: Rog Peek
Date: 07 Nov 08 - 02:41 PM

If among other things Barack Obama is getting a name in America as a 'gun snatching socialist', I do fear for his safety.

Rog

Subject: RE: BS: Gun Sales Are Up
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 07 Nov 08 - 02:56 PM

"I do love a totally unbiased post, from someone without an axe to grind, or an agenda to pursue."


Regardless of his motive, the story is true. These folks know their days are numbered so they are stocking up. These are the same folks that sit in tar papered shacks reading up on how they can form their own militias.   The nut jobs always see that they won't be able to get away with their crap any longer.

Subject: RE: BS: Gun Sales Are Up
From: SINSULL
Date: 07 Nov 08 - 03:10 PM

David Nelson, a co-owner of Montana Ordnance & Supply in Missoula, Mont., said his buyers were "awake and aware and see a dangerous trend."

Mr. Nelson said sales at his store had risen about 30 percent since Mr. Obama declared his candidacy. "People are concerned about overreaching legislation from Washington," he said. "They are educating themselves on the Internet."

So 10 of the 30 people living in Missoula bought guns...hardly a national trend.

And do these dates not correspond with opening dates of hunting seasons?????

Subject: RE: BS: Gun Sales Are Up
From: PoppaGator
Date: 07 Nov 08 - 03:16 PM

"...educating themselves on the internet..."

Sad to say, the explosion of postmodern communications technology serves just as well for the promotion and promulgation of fear and ignorance as for real education and enlightenment.

We can only hope that those who are smart enough to be really good at using the internet and related technology to promote their agendas are smart enough to be sane and reasonable citizens.

Subject: RE: BS: Gun Sales Are Up
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 07 Nov 08 - 03:18 PM

Oh Mary for goodness sake, don't spoil the argument by bringing logic into it.

XG ¦¬]

Subject: RE: BS: Gun Sales Are Up
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 07 Nov 08 - 03:25 PM

Let's put a positive spin on this - the Republicants have been doing that since Reagan. Think about this - Obama hasn't even taken the oath and already he is causing an increase in consumer spending. That has to be good for the economy, right???

Subject: RE: BS: Gun Sales Are Up
From: gnu
Date: 07 Nov 08 - 03:37 PM

Hahahahaha... SINS, John, Ron... hehehehehee!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Gun Sales Are Up
From: wysiwyg
Date: 07 Nov 08 - 03:42 PM

There are now two threads on this topic, and they are very similar in tone as they are unfolding.... I think it's too bad that when there's a really powerful opportunity to look forward in positivity, what seems to be happening in the CatBox is continued negatividad.

In short-- don't feed the trolls, don't give in to fear, and don't be reactive. If you can read this message, then you are a human bean-- and you're better than all that! :~)

~S~

Subject: RE: BS: Gun Sales Are Up
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 07 Nov 08 - 03:44 PM

I have a pulse, does that count?

Subject: RE: BS: Gun Sales Are Up
From: Rapparee
Date: 07 Nov 08 - 03:46 PM

The Brady gun control group points out, quite rightly, that both the pro-gun people agree with the Brady bunch that guns should be kept out of the hands of people who are a danger to society. The "gun show loophole" will most likely be closed, but the US has far, far, higher priorities right now than dealing with a subject so far under people's radar that it didn't even make it into the "top ten" campaign issues.

And this has been going on for over a month. I guess word just reached NYC, huh?

Subject: RE: BS: Gun Sales Are Up
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 07 Nov 08 - 03:59 PM

"I think it's too bad that when there's a really powerful opportunity to look forward in positivity, what seems to be happening in the CatBox is continued negatividad."

Not at all. What seems to be happening is that a small group of nuts are panicking.   You can't let the fringe control the mood of a nation, especially when they are far from the majority of opinion. There is a powereful opportunity toward positive - and THAT is what is scarying these nutjobs. The fact that they are so afraid is PROOF POSITIVE that change IS occuring.   Don't let their spin spoil our buzz!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Gun Sales Are Up
From: Riginslinger
Date: 07 Nov 08 - 04:13 PM

It's happening in Connecticut too:


Gun Sales Up 50 Percent In Conn.
Customers Cite New Administration As Reason

The surge in gun sales sprawling across the country started in Connecticut a couple of weeks ago.

One store owner said people are buying guns now while they can.

Many customers said they're stocking up on guns because they think the new administration will move quickly to restrict sales.

They said Democrats now control all three branches of the government and they feel the Democrats don't want the average American to have the right to defend themselves with guns.

Records show that gun stores across the country are experiencing a large increase in sales. In Colorado, records indicate a one-day record was set Nov. 1 for the highest number of background checks in a 24-hour period.

Connecticut stores have seen a similar spike, store owners said. They said the increase is about 50 percent.

Some purchasing guns said President-elect Barack Obama said that in times of adversity, Americans cling to their guns and religion. Others said they have researched Obama's and Vice President-elect Joe Biden's record on gun control on the Internet and don't like what they see.

Subject: RE: BS: Gun Sales Are Up
From: meself
Date: 07 Nov 08 - 04:24 PM

So - what's your point?

Subject: RE: BS: Gun Sales Are Up
From: Little Hawk
Date: 07 Nov 08 - 04:28 PM

Oh, for heaven's sake...! ;-) I really doubt that Barack Obama is going to take everybody's guns away. I think he will have far more important matters on his mind than that. He has a crippled economy to shore up and 2 foreign wars to deal with.

I wonder if Americans in general are aware that Mr Obama's general beliefs and policies as set out in both his own writings and his recent campaign rest somewhat to right of center for a Canadian or Western European politician???

If he were in Canada, he would occupy roughly the spot in our political spectrum that a moderate/progressive Republican would in the USA! He would be like one of our Conservatives, in other words.

However, he is enormously popular in Canada...because the people he was running against are seen as being to the right of Attila the Hun....therefore he is a big step in the right direction as far as we Canadians are concerned.

Here's a great article in today's Toronto Star to demonstrate what I'm talking about:

Canadian view of Barack Obama

The article is written by Rosie DiManno, one of Canada's foremost columnists. I would describe her as a tough "conservative" liberal in Canadian terms. That is, she writes for a liberal newspaper, but she tends to write from a rather conservative "tough love" mindset. For example, she has enthusiastically backed the Iraq war from day 1, while our government chose not to get involved in it and not to support it, and our public in general looked askance at the whole thing. I agree with Rosie DiManno about half the time. She's smart, tough, stubborn, and opinionated. I would not know whether to describe her as "liberal" or "conservative", because she just doesn't fully fit either description.

Subject: RE: BS: Gun Sales Are Up
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 07 Nov 08 - 04:30 PM

Rigin - why do you think this story is of any importance? If anything, it embraces the power of chnage that Obama has created.

Are you warning us that the nutjobs are creating a militia?? Is Timmy stuck in the well? What is it???

Subject: RE: BS: Gun Sales Are Up
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 07 Nov 08 - 04:33 PM

" I wonder if Americans in general are aware that Mr Obama's general beliefs and policies as set out in both his own writings and his recent campaign rest somewhat to right of center for a Canadian or Western European politician??? "

That really does not amount to much. You are comparing apples and oranges.   Obamba is not President of Canada or Western Europe and the issues are different. What passes for right or left in the U.S. should be very different from the rest of the world, just as your politics are different from other countries.

Subject: RE: BS: Gun Sales Are Up
From: Riginslinger
Date: 07 Nov 08 - 04:34 PM

Absolutely not, Ron. If you have time to look at my orginal post, you will see that I'm making the point that Obama is already turning the economy around.

                But then somebody made the observation that it was only happening in Montana, so I wanted to let folks know it was happening in Connecticut as well.

Subject: RE: BS: Gun Sales Are Up
From: SINSULL
Date: 07 Nov 08 - 04:36 PM

Connecticut stores have seen a similar spike, store owners said. They said the increase is about 50 percent.

I repeat - hunting season is starting. Gun sales always go up this time of year.

My customers who sell guns and gun stocks say sales are down because of the crappy economy. Go figure.

Subject: RE: BS: Gun Sales Are Up
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 07 Nov 08 - 04:37 PM

Isn't it great Rigin!!!   The man is making change all over the country! I know you were not a fan of his, but I'm glad to see you've seen the error of your ways. Good for you!!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Gun Sales Are Up
From: Little Hawk
Date: 07 Nov 08 - 04:37 PM

Just read the article, Ron. You'll find it interesting. It's always of some benefit, I think, to be more aware of how others see you, and it can lead to increased perspective.

Don't misunderstand me. I am absolutely delighted that Obama won, and I am NOT attacking him. What I am doing is simply describing the very considerable differences in basic core political philosophy between America and most of its allies (Israel excepted).

Subject: RE: BS: Gun Sales Are Up
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 07 Nov 08 - 04:37 PM

SINSULL - shhh... don't remind people about the hunting season, let Obama take the credit for turning the economy around!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Gun Sales Are Up
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 07 Nov 08 - 04:39 PM

Little Hawk - I agree, it is good to see how others perceive us and I thank you for the article.   My point is, you still can't use the same labels in different countries. It is a linguistic difference, not political.

Subject: RE: BS: Gun Sales Are Up
From: SINSULL
Date: 07 Nov 08 - 04:43 PM

You don't suppose that the downward spiralling economy has people thinking guns might be a good investment has something to do with this?

I want to buy a gun but Jacqui and Kendall won't let me - thy watch.

Subject: RE: BS: Gun Sales Are Up
From: Little Hawk
Date: 07 Nov 08 - 04:49 PM

Well, yes, the use of "socialism" as a deeply negative word in America is quite unusual in the world in general...but that does reflect deep differences in core philosophy between America and Canada (for example), differences which have been there ever since the late 1700s.

We both have a parliamentary democracy...arranged a bit differently in certain respects...yours is a republic. We both have an extensive Bill of Rights. We both are basically capitalist societies with a number of socialist institutions in place to handle public matters. But our core philosophies are founded on a very different psychological mindset, and have been right from the start.

And that is why our populations have different notions about who is on the "left" or the "right", politically speaking, and who is not.

Obama has to work with the card he's been dealt. It will be interesting to see how he handles it, and I hope he handles it very well indeed. He could become one of the truly great presidents. Let it be so!

Subject: RE: BS: Gun Sales Are Up
From: Riginslinger
Date: 07 Nov 08 - 04:52 PM

"The man is making change all over the country! I know you were not a fan of his, but I'm glad to see you've seen the error of your ways."


               Actually, Ron, now that Obama has been elected, my fortunes are tied to his ability to do the job, so I'm rooting for him. It was never that I disliked him, or even disagreed with his policy proposals. I had trouble trusting him mostly because of the way he presented himself.
               I hope I was wrong, but there's nothing to do now but to wait and see.

Subject: RE: BS: Gun Sales Are Up
From: Big Mick
Date: 07 Nov 08 - 04:56 PM

From the Democratic Debate on January 15, 2008, moderated by Tim Russert.

RUSSERT: Senator Obama, when you were in the state senate, you talked about licensing and registering gun owners. Would you do that as president?

OBAMA: I don't think that we can get that done. But what I do think we can do is to provide just some common-sense enforcement. One good example -- this is consistently blocked -- the efforts by law enforcement to obtain the information required to trace back guns that have been used in crimes to unscrupulous gun dealers.

That's not something that the NRA has allowed to get through Congress. And, as president, I intend to make it happen.

But here's the broader context that I think is important for us to remember. We essentially have two realities, when it comes to guns, in this country. You've got the tradition of lawful gun ownership, that all of us saw, as we travel around rural parts of the country.

And it is very important for many Americans to be able to hunt, fish, take their kids out, teach them how to shoot.

And then you've got the reality of 34 Chicago public school students who get shot down on the streets of Chicago.

We can reconcile those two realities by making sure the Second Amendment is respected and that people are able to lawfully own guns, but that we also start cracking down on the kinds of abuses of firearms that we see on the streets.

Despite what some of you seem to think, there will be no movement to ban guns. One of the things O'bama (still can't help meself) successfully did was to not allow wedge issues to be used any longer. He, and most leading Dems, understand at long last that by using the issue of inner city crime as a reason for banning all guns simply drives off the most important part of the base in the Democratic Party, that being middle class folks. Someone above made the erroneous statement that the majority of folks in this country would support a gun ban, or something like that. In fact, most Americans are firmly in support of the right to keep and bear arms. Our President (elect) understands this. He understands we must deal with the problem of violence in poor urban areas, and that we must respect the rights of average citizens. Solve hopelessness and you will end most crime in urban environments. My guess is he will focus in economic areas almost exclusively, and we will see little attention paid to this, in spite of what the wackos believe.

All the best,

Mick

Subject: RE: BS: Gun Sales Are Up
From: Melissa
Date: 07 Nov 08 - 05:03 PM

stocking up on guns?

doesn't it seem like it would be more sensible to stock up on ammunition IF that was your mindset?

Subject: RE: BS: Gun Sales Are Up
From: Riginslinger
Date: 07 Nov 08 - 05:08 PM

Ammunition isn't tracked as well as firearms. There are places where you can buy thousands of rounds of ammunition, if you want a popular military caliber, and just have it delivered UPS, I think. At least I've seen it advertised that way.

Subject: RE: BS: Gun Sales Are Up
From: Rapparee
Date: 07 Nov 08 - 05:17 PM

Remember also that he was a professor of Constitutional Law at the University of Chicago.

Subject: RE: BS: Gun Sales Are Up
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 07 Nov 08 - 05:17 PM

The right to arm bears I assume

Subject: RE: BS: Gun Sales Are Up
From: Rapparee
Date: 07 Nov 08 - 05:18 PM

I have ammunition, enough to hunt with if it comes to that. Why would I need more?

Subject: RE: BS: Gun Sales Are Up
From: Little Hawk
Date: 07 Nov 08 - 05:23 PM

In case Shane decides to visit you?

Subject: RE: BS: Gun Sales Are Up
From: Ebbie
Date: 07 Nov 08 - 05:36 PM

Rig, you appear not to have noticed the 'Obama - Fear is good for Economy'(or something like that) thread begun by your counterpart.

But I have no fear for you. I'm almost positive that you have more guns right now than you will ever need.

Subject: RE: BS: Gun Sales Are Up
From: Riginslinger
Date: 07 Nov 08 - 05:56 PM

Ebbie - You continue to read unintended messages into my posts. I do not hoard guns; I was simply commenting on what was going on in the market right now.
                  I didn't know there was another thread, but thankyou for bringing it to my attention.

Subject: RE: BS: Gun Sales Are Up
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 07 Nov 08 - 06:23 PM

In regards to ammunition: Those of us with percussion black powder guns know that a thousand percussion caps fit in a 2 inch diameter less than 1/2 inch thick tin- I can fit tens of thousands of caps in a jacket pocket. The powder and bullets I can make myself.

And reloading cartridges is not that hard.



But then, it is not difficult to make a shotgun, either.

Subject: RE: BS: Gun Sales Are Up
From: Riginslinger
Date: 07 Nov 08 - 06:41 PM

Yeah, that's the funny thing about it BB. There are gunsmiths and machinists all over the country (not to mention knowledgeable back yard tinkerers) who could make all kinds of guns if the market was right for it. Most of the designs that are in use today originated about the turn of the 20th century, so it's not rocket science.
                     And the kinds of guns that you're talking about would be even easier.

Subject: RE: BS: Gun Sales Are Up
From: Little Hawk
Date: 07 Nov 08 - 06:44 PM

Most people nowadays are too lazy and disorganized to make their own powder and bullets. They want something they can buy ready-made and wrapped in plastic at WalMart.

That, however, would not stop the true aficionado, obviously.

Subject: RE: BS: Gun Sales Are Up
From: Riginslinger
Date: 07 Nov 08 - 06:51 PM

The ones I've seen at WalMart are made out of plastic, not just wrapped in it.

Subject: RE: BS: Gun Sales Are Up
From: katlaughing
Date: 07 Nov 08 - 07:19 PM

One of the best ads we saw here in Western Colorado during the election, was a gentleman who said he was a lifelong member of the NRA and had hunted all of his life and was supporting Obama. He talked about gun rights and how Obama was for them. While I don't favour hunting or guns, it is ridiculous in the extreme to feel any threat about lawful gun ownership under Obama's leadership.

Subject: RE: BS: Gun Sales Are Up
From: Riginslinger
Date: 07 Nov 08 - 07:38 PM

Well, I would agree, Kat. I think people must take their cues from talk radio and publications like "Guns and Ammo Magazine."
                The other thing is, the authorities are normally only interested in handguns and rapid-fire rifles. Somebody with an old turn-bolt aught-six or a shot gun shouldn't have too much to worry about.
                But look how they're reacting!

Subject: RE: BS: Gun Sales Are Up
From: Riginslinger
Date: 07 Nov 08 - 09:38 PM

In Oregon, where we are smart enough not to have a waiting period, gun sales have gone through the roof just since the election. So it ain't deer hunters.

               The following piece from channel 12 in Portland:




Ever since Barack Obama became the U.S. president-elect on Tuesday night, gun and ammo sales have gone way up all across the country, and gun sellers said the Portland area is no different.

The Beavercreek Armory owners said their sales have double since Election Day.

They said longtime gun owners are scared about the shift in power and are trying to stock up.

Joann Frazier made her usual sales pitch for potential gun buyers Friday, but she said she'd made it an unusually large number of times.

Since the election, she and her husband, David, said they can hardly keep up with demand.

"It's just an ebb and flow of business, usually. But sales have increased by 100 times," Joann Frazier said.

At one point Friday, Joann Frazier said 20 customers were packed inside their small store and all of the chatter was the same.

She said longtime gun owners are stocking up on new firearms and ammo because many of them see Obama as a threat to their rights.

"They're concerned. They're uncertain about what direction we're going. What direction the president-elect is going," Joann Frazier said.

Scott Levitt has been around guns since he was a child.

"The guns I have, I'll always have. I'm a Second Amendment believer," Levitt said.

And as a customer, he said even he's noticed an increased interest in people buying guns for the first time.

"I have some friends who've all gone out and done the rush – the mad buy. So it's a sign of the times," Levitt said.

As a store owner, Joann Frazier said she loves the wave of new business this week. But as a gun owner, she is worried about Obama's bigger picture.

"Without sounding terribly political, I do feel that some of our constitutional rights are at risk," Joann Frazier said.

Subject: RE: BS: Gun Sales Are Up
From: Rapparee
Date: 07 Nov 08 - 10:06 PM

These seem to be the "pry it from my cold dead hands" crowd. One of the women (a single mother of 3 boys) is buying a 20 gauge shotgun so that if she must she can hunt deer, rabbits, birds; she already has a .22 pistol. That's all she feels she'll need if things go really sour.

I make (from kits, but I could do it from scratch) black powder arms. To make your own powder and shot I refer you to Foxfire 5. The Poor Man's James Bond has a chapter on how to make a Sten gun in your home workshop; The Anarchist's Cookbook contains information on making silencers (both contain info on lots of other things). The are Other Sources of such information rather freely available (e.g., The Home Guard Manual).

But remember -- each of those people legally buying a gun now is also providing a paper trail which the BATF and the FBI can use to track them (and the weapon, as the serial number is also included). If they want an untraceable firearm it must have been in use prior to 1965 AND never sold since then through a gun store or in any other way come to the notice of the authorities. Such exist -- the .45 grandpa brought back from WW2 for example -- but they are NOT easily obtainable. Breaking in and stealing the contents of a gun shop is really dumb because the owners tend to have burglar alarms and surveillance cameras inside the shop and out. (Holding up a gun store is REALLY stupid and likely to prove fatal.)

Canadians -- ask how many unregistered guns are in the country, held by lawful Canadian citizens for lawful purposes. UKers -- how many unregistered guns are there there?

I'm not worried about those buying guns and leaving paper trails. I'm more concerned about the number of firearms which come into the US and other countries illegally, as part of the drug trade for example.

Obama has his plate far, far too full right now to worry about a non-problem like this.

Subject: RE: BS: Gun Sales Are Up
From: Riginslinger
Date: 07 Nov 08 - 11:36 PM

"But remember -- each of those people legally buying a gun now is also providing a paper trail which the BATF and the FBI can use to track..."

                   That's absolutely right, and there should be nothing for these people to fear. It would only get nasty if these kinds of folks could not buy small arms of the kind you describe. We saw what happened with prohibition, and the war on drugs. If we engage in a "war on guns," I suspect we'd see the same kinds of results.

Subject: RE: BS: Gun Sales Are Up
From: kendall
Date: 08 Nov 08 - 01:41 AM

So, what is so smart about not having a waiting period?

These people who are so scared of losing their 2nd amendment right are jumping at shadows. Do they really think that one man, even the president, could take away that right? Silly. The NRA feeds on fear.

"There is nothing so scary as ignorance in action." (Goethe')

Subject: RE: BS: Gun Sales Are Up
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 08 Nov 08 - 08:33 AM

The whole gun argument has been rendered ludicrous by the "slippery slope" mentality of both sides. The NRA types are so afraid of overregulation that they fight any attempt at regulation--even if it attempts to keep private citizens from purchasing nuclear weapons. And the anti-gun types are terrified that any that explicitly permit gun purchases of any kind will automatically lead to armed anarchy.

It's pretty clear that there are some people who should be kept away from guns. It would be nice if the question of "how" could be resolved in some rational manner.

Subject: RE: BS: Gun Sales Are Up
From: Rapparee
Date: 08 Nov 08 - 10:18 AM

The "no waiting period" refers to the "instant check" done by the FBI. Takes only a few minutes (as I know). The gun shop owner can and must refuse to sell if the person seems angry and ready to use the weapon as soon as s/he walks out the door.

Subject: RE: BS: Gun Sales Are Up
From: Riginslinger
Date: 08 Nov 08 - 10:34 AM

Yes, in Oregon they do all of the background checking that they'd do any place else in the country. Some states have a waiting period. I think the purpose of that is, if you have a domestic dispute, for instance, one party or the other can't go out and buy a gun and then come back and shoot the other party. Given the length of time the customer has to stand around in the store while all of the background checks are completed, I would think there would be little chance of something like that happening.

Subject: RE: BS: Gun Sales Are Up
From: gnu
Date: 08 Nov 08 - 01:21 PM

In Canuckistan, ya gotta have a POL or a PAL. The PAL, Possession and Aquisition License requires passing the Canada Firearms Safety Course Test and submitting a lengthy application (which MUST be "signed off" by the spouse) after which a thorough background check takes place. A picture ID card with code and with magnetic strip is then issued and is valid for five years.

The POL, Possession Only, was to cover persons who owned guns prior to the new laws brought in back in the 80s (think it was the 80s?). They did not have to take the course. However, very few people, if ANY, who legally own guns in Canada are ignorant of proper handling, safety and storage.

Now, the criminals, on the other hand....

Subject: RE: BS: Gun Sales Are Up
From: Riginslinger
Date: 08 Nov 08 - 02:10 PM

That's a good point, gnu. America could learn from the Canadian example. But there is always the problem of what to do about those individuals who consistantly operate outside of the law.

Subject: RE: BS: Gun Sales Are Up
From: Rapparee
Date: 08 Nov 08 - 06:07 PM

It's only my opinion, but if you bring a weapon to a crime your sentence should automatically go up by at least 5 years, no parole for it. If you use a weapon during a crime, add 10 years. If someone dies during a crime you committed while in possession of a weapon, such possession should be prima facie evidence of planned intent and you go up for murder one (if you didn't intend to use it, why did you bring it?). And I specifically use the word "weapon" and not "gun".

The media must also take some blame for glorifying weapons as ends in themselves and not as the tools they are. Perhaps if the US (and other countries) taught children that firearms are tools for grownups and not toys for children (and grownups were required to learn about them)...well, consider Switzerland....

Subject: RE: BS: Gun Sales Are Up
From: GUEST,Steve in Idaho
Date: 08 Nov 08 - 10:16 PM

[b[Regardless of his motive, the story is true. These folks know their days are numbered so they are stocking up. These are the same folks that sit in tar papered shacks reading up on how they can form their own militias.   The nut jobs always see that they won't be able to get away with their crap any longer.[b/]

So Ron Olesko - were you just born ignorant or did you work at it? Against folks having the right to defend themselves?

And exactly what "crap" are you talking about?

I certainly don't get what you think you are achieving by taking weapons away from the law abiding folks in America. And as far as it being an agenda item - I believe it is. Our VP Elect wrote the last major firearms bill. And it was pretty stupid also, and the American public agreed when they allowed it to sunset under Clinton's administration. Pres elect Obama agrees with him. So I believe that when a right guaranteed by the founding fathers is in jeapardy once should think to the future. And it is a right. The Supreme Court even agreed.

The only statistic for guns being removed from peoples hands has always guaranteed a rise in crime. As one of my dear friends, a police officer, says, "When seconds count the police are just minutes away."

You have a right to think what you want. But if you believe for even one second I live in a tarpaper shack and am ignorant - well - you certainly are clueless. So I'd encourage you take a look at law, history, and reality before you make a statement on my ignorance.

Subject: RE: BS: Gun Sales Are Up
From: Rapparee
Date: 08 Nov 08 - 10:19 PM

Gee, Steve -- I'm in Pocatello. Where are you?

Subject: RE: BS: Gun Sales Are Up
From: Rapparee
Date: 08 Nov 08 - 10:32 PM

Has anyone here considered that gun sales might be up because the economy is in the dumps?

In rural areas, such as this is, a gun behind the door can mean meat on the table.

Subject: RE: BS: Gun Sales Are Up
From: pdq
Date: 08 Nov 08 - 10:44 PM

Does anyone have actual facts about who is buying the guns and where?

I suspect that Black and Hispanic folks who live in gang-prone areas do not want to see their rights of self-defence reduced.

Subject: RE: BS: Gun Sales Are Up
From: gnu
Date: 09 Nov 08 - 06:14 AM

Rap.... I attended all the sessions... and I suggested that "armed robbery" carry a minimum 10 year sentence (our sentences work much differently, with parole possile after 1/3 and mandatory after 2/3 under certain conditions). The federal minister of justice scoffed at such suggestions, but he put in place a minimum 2 year sentence for me if someone broke into my house, stole a gun and commited a crime with it. Go figure.

Caveat... as for what is actually on our books, I am going by memory, and therefore, ahhh... I need another cup of tea.

Subject: RE: BS: Gun Sales Are Up
From: Folkiedave
Date: 09 Nov 08 - 07:05 AM

One thing is for absolute certain. More guns = more gun-related deaths.

How many accidental deaths are there where guns are involved?

How many gun suicides are there?

Subject: RE: BS: Gun Sales Are Up
From: Riginslinger
Date: 09 Nov 08 - 07:40 AM

Of course, the same is true of automobiles and mountain climbers.

Subject: RE: BS: Gun Sales Are Up
From: Rapparee
Date: 09 Nov 08 - 10:47 AM

No gun death is caused by "accident." They are either deliberate or due to carelessness.

My source on this is no less than the National Rifle Association.

Suicide by shooting is more-or-less irrelevant, as someone who TRULY intends to kill themself will find a means to do so. At least in the US, "accidental" gun deaths have been dropping for years.

I leave you to find the statistics, 'cause I'm not at work today.

Subject: RE: BS: Gun Sales Are Up
From: GUEST,Steve in Idaho
Date: 09 Nov 08 - 12:55 PM

We have the means to prevent the ignorant and criminals to not acquire weapons legally. So they get them from illegal means. Stealing, robbery, and other sources.

An increase in weapons does not necessarily mean an increase in deaths related to people's use of firearms.

My issue with folks making broad statements about the heritage and intelligence of a particular gun owner, or all of us, is that for 99% it is untrue. And the addition of those adjudicated mentally incompetent just removed another group from owning weapons.

I'm not a member of the NRA. The NRA has made concessions to the gun lobby in the interest of easing up on more restrictive legislative fights.

Bottom line - guns are not the problem any more than cars are responsible for traffic problems. It is the people using them that are the problem. In Idaho one does receive additional hard time for gun related crimes. Even if you threaten and do not have possesion it is inferred that you used a gun.

I am educated, Master's Degree, own my own home, never filed bancruptcy, served my country honorably, and am entitled by the Constitution to own firearms. It is not an issue of "need" - it's an issue of "right". I cannot judge your need or want any more than you can judge my needs or wants. What I can do is be responsible with my guns and teach my children the same.

I was proud to have purchased my grand daughters their first 22 rifles. And helped them learn how to be responsible with them. They were both 5 years old when I started with them in concert with their parents. I can tell you that both those kids are in accelerated school programs and already mini-leaders in the little community they inhabit.

That is what I want. Responsible ownership and use of weapons. And only parents can teach that. It can't be legislated, it can't be ordered, it can only come from responsible people teaching civic-minded responsibility to their kids. Unreasoned fear is not the means. It's why I took Mr. Olesko's statement personally. He's lumped me with the -1% group that really does not need to have arms.

Subject: RE: BS: Gun Sales Are Up
From: gnu
Date: 09 Nov 08 - 01:01 PM

I thought this thread was about gun sales and gun laws.

If it's gonna be that old crap about "guns kill people", completely shot to hell in thousands of post on related threads, I am outta here. Have fun.

Subject: RE: BS: Gun Sales Are Up
From: pdq
Date: 09 Nov 08 - 01:27 PM

For those of you who suggest that the Obama-Biden ticket is not "anti-gun", here is another opinion:


 
Sarah Palin and Joe Biden: Worlds Apart
 
Friday, August 29, 2008
 
Even before this week, the difference between Barack Obama and John McCain was clear.  For one, McCain joined more than 300 other members of Congress in signing a "friend of the court" brief, in District of Columbia v. Heller, urging the Supreme Court to rule in favor of the Second Amendment and against D.C.'s handgun ban. 

Obama refused to sign the Heller brief, and supports reinstituting the Clinton gun and magazine ban.  He also supports Ted Kennedy's bill to ban semi-automatic handguns in the guise of "micro-stamping," and supports banning inexpensive handguns as "junk guns." 

But now that each candidate has chosen his running mate, the difference is even clearer than before.  And when it comes to guns, the two prospective vice-presidents are as far apart as the states from which they hail. 

Sen. McCain's running mate, Alaska Gov. Sarah Palin, is a NRA Life Member and hunter who says, "I support our Constitutional right to bear arms and am a proponent of gun safety programs for Alaska's youth," adding "I have always strongly supported the personal use of fish and game by Alaskans.  I grew up hunting and fishing in Alaska, and I am proud to raise my children with this same uniquely Alaskan heritage." 

NRA-ILA Executive Director Chris W. Cox says "Governor Palin doesn't just talk about supporting the Second Amendment, it's part of her life, and she did her part to vindicate the Second Amendment for all Americans when Alaska joined 30 other states in signing a legal brief supporting Heller's challenge to the D.C. gun-ban." 

As for Joe Biden, from Delaware, the Brady Campaign sums it up in a straightforward enough fashion, saying, "Senator Biden has been a consistent supporter of the Brady Campaign," and "Senator Biden was a key player in the fight for the federal assault weapons ban that passed in 1994.  He also worked hard for passage of the Brady Law (sic)." 

In fact, Biden introduced an "assault weapons" ban in Congress five years before the Clinton gun and magazine ban was imposed.  In 1989, Biden's Senate Bill 1970 proposed to ban the Colt AR-15 and eight similar firearms as "assault weapons," and authorize the Secretary of the Treasury (in reality, BATF) and the Attorney General to recommend to Congress any other firearms, regardless of type, to be banned as "additional assault weapons." 

As lead sponsor of the Senate crime bill to which the Feinstein gun ban amendment was attached, Biden was instrumental in the passage of the 1994 Clinton gun and magazine ban.   Biden reiterated his support for the ban—and, in fact, took credit for authoring it—in response to a question at the CNN/YouTube debate earlier this year (to view the video, please click here). 

Biden voted for the ban on a stand-alone vote in 1993, and voted to extend the ban in 2004 as an amendment to the "Protection of Lawful Commerce in Arms Act."  He also included a renewal of the ban in his crime bill last year, along with gun show restrictions. 

Currently, Biden's S. 2237 proposes to renew the Clinton ban on roughly 200 makes and models of semi-automatic rifles, shotguns, and handguns on the basis of things like the shape of their grips, and on ammunition magazines that hold more than 10 rounds, regardless of the kind of firearm in which they are used. 

As if that's not enough, Biden voted against the law that prohibits lawsuits designed to bankrupt law-abiding firearm manufacturers and dealers.  He also refused to sign the Congressional brief in Heller, and voted to confirm only one of the five justices who ruled in favor of the Second Amendment in Heller, yet he voted to confirm all four justices who voted against the Second Amendment in that case. 

To put it simply, Gov. Sarah Palin would be one of the most pro-gun vice-presidents in American history, and Joe Biden would definitely be the most anti-gun.

 

Subject: RE: BS: Gun Sales Are Up
From: Riginslinger
Date: 09 Nov 08 - 02:20 PM

"'No gun death is caused by "accident."'"


                So this horny guy is running around in the woods, and a hunter sees him, thinks he's a elk, and shoots him. Wouldn't that be an accident?

Subject: RE: BS: Gun Sales Are Up
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 09 Nov 08 - 02:43 PM

Someone claimed that no one's death (and presumably injury) was caused by accident. They were all either on purpose or caused by carelessness.

What do you think an accident is? Usually an event which could, with care, have been prevented--hence, caused by carelessness. Therefore that kind of claim is either sophomoric or disingenuous.

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: BS: Gun Sales Are Up
From: gnu
Date: 09 Nov 08 - 04:07 PM

Heheheheee... just figured I'd check back to see... yup... I was right.

Horny guy running around in the woods? Hahahaha. That is fuckin priceless... hehehehee.

Dave... carelessness? Yeah. That's why gun owners advocate gun safety. That's why we don't want assholes and criminals to have guns. That is why we need proper gun laws.

This ain't rocket science.

Okay, I'll leave now... until I am needed again...

Subject: RE: BS: Gun Sales Are Up
From: pdq
Date: 09 Nov 08 - 04:23 PM

About "the horny guy running around in the woods", his wife said "please not tonight, deer".

Subject: RE: BS: Gun Sales Are Up
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 09 Nov 08 - 04:57 PM

do guns cost a lot in America?

as much as medium price guitars guitars (like yamaha), or as expensive as colour plasma tvs?

very scary items, I shouldn't care to have one around the house. My record with gadgets is not good. Once, I had the microwave cooker turn on me.

In England, farmers have guns - and drug dealers and thst's about it.

Some people used to have handguns for sport, but we had a couple of cases where lunatics went mad with a guns. And everybody just realised that we needed to get guns out of society as much as possible.

We've all heard about your constitution and 'the right to bear arms', but it wouldn't work in England..... too many nutcases out there.

I live in the gun crime capital of England, Nottingham. And I've never seen anyone with a gun. Only very rarely do you see even cops carrying guns. I suppose when you do see a nutter with a gun - its too late!

Subject: RE: BS: Gun Sales Are Up
From: Riginslinger
Date: 09 Nov 08 - 05:06 PM

Comparing guns to guitars is pretty appropriate, wld. Cheap handguns and .22's start a little under $200.00. A real functional hand gun would cost probably $600.00 to $1,000.00

             A bolt-action rifle like most people use for hunting will run from $500.00 to $1,200.00. A decent shotgun might run a little more. And there are hand built double rifles and some hard-to-find fowling pieces that will run into the tens of thousands.

            Ironically, some of the most desirable double rifles and shotguns come from the UK. Holland & Holland, Rigby, Jeffery, and Gibbs are some of the names that come to mind.

Subject: RE: BS: Gun Sales Are Up
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 09 Nov 08 - 05:18 PM

I can see it would nice to own some sort of James Bond thing - or one of those long barrelled things that Hugh O'Brian used to have when he was Wyatt Earp on TV.

My friends would stop visiting me, if they knew I had one however - as they know I'm a bit crazy. Out of interest - how much would something like those items cost? You never know - I might go to America one day. Walk around, armed to the teeth. Knowing my luck, I'd end up on death row. The English Folk Song and Dance society would attend the execution, 'We've come to get closure.......' Sing him the Dowie Dens of Yarrow as the needle goes in - he must suffer like his victims!

James Bond had a Beretta and a Walther PPK, as I remember. Are they hard to get?

Subject: RE: BS: Gun Sales Are Up
From: Rapparee
Date: 09 Nov 08 - 06:16 PM

wee, pop on over here and I'll take you shooting. That's the fastest way to answer your questions. Hell, I'll even fix you up with a guy who has a LICENSE and PERMIT to own and shoot fully automatic weapons.

We'll do this on a shooting range up in the hills. At targets. Before we go and after we're done we'll insure that the guns are unloaded and properly stowed, the ammo is locked away, and all are secured.

By the way Guest Steve -- I have several rifles, handguns, shotguns and a "CCW" that was renewed by the State of Idaho just this past July. I too have a Master's Degree, own my own home (well, me and the bank), pay my bills every month, have never been in jail (but I was once charged with police brutality!), pay my taxes every year, and in general life a boring, untattoed, unpierced, life.

Subject: RE: BS: Gun Sales Are Up
From: Riginslinger
Date: 09 Nov 08 - 06:44 PM

A Walther PPK lists for $573.00 and comes in .380 Auto or .32 Automatic Colt Pistol. A dealer can usually get one for you for 10% to 15% less than that. They are very easy to come by, but you'd have to buy it through a licensed dealer.

Subject: RE: BS: Gun Sales Are Up
From: Rapparee
Date: 09 Nov 08 - 08:52 PM

So are Berettas, Brownings, Colts, Tauruses, Stars, Hi-Points, Steyrs, Freedoms, Kimbers, Smith & Wessons, Rugers, Fabrique Nationales, Lugers, and American Derringers, to name a few. If you want to pay a bit more you can get a Nambu, a Webley, a P-38, or most anything you want.

From a licensed gun dealer.

Costs are from about US $100.00 up to whatever you want to pay.

I wouldn't depend upon anything you could get on the street. Besides, I really wouldn't have any idea about how to go about getting one that way.

Subject: RE: BS: Gun Sales Are Up
From: Riginslinger
Date: 09 Nov 08 - 08:56 PM

Even if you got one off the street, and it was mechanically perfect, there's a good chance it is stolen or was used in a crime. It could make your life really miserable.

Subject: RE: BS: Gun Sales Are Up
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 10 Nov 08 - 12:06 PM

The trouble with journalists is that they spend too much time at their desks, downloading stuff. They seem to know less and less about real life with every passing year.

First the television generation grew up, then the Dungeons & Dragons lot, soon the nation will be run by those who were suckled by the Internet. Probably most of them have never fallen off a bicycle.

For example, the writer who quoted the stuff about gun-nuts who fear Obama does not realize this simple fact of life:

Any excuse goes for buying another gun.

For some people, guns are like musical instruments or earrings. The desire to buy another one is always in the back of the mind, ready to be activated.

When it comes to the national statistics, another real-world consideration comes into play. Soon it will be deer season. Deer season is big! Pheasant season is in the fall, too, but that's probably shotguns. So ya gotta get your ammo, not just ammo for the season, but ammo to use when lining in your gun so it shoots straight. Yo've got to get in practice. And if, while buying your ammo, you see a lovely, shiny new gun that you've always wanted (well, at least since you learned of its existence) well...

I am not in favor of guns myself, but at least I know something about the people who use them.

Subject: RE: BS: Gun Sales Are Up
From: Ed T
Date: 10 Nov 08 - 12:12 PM

Seems like chewing gum sales have also been on the surge (with bulble gum sales about to explode)   
A oincidence? Maybe, but,I suggest not so.

http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn12641

Subject: RE: BS: Gun Sales Are Up
From: Wesley S
Date: 10 Nov 08 - 01:29 PM

I have special information {an e-mail from a friend of a friend of mine}that Obama plans to ban the sales of high speed eight string mandolins like my Weber Bridger. Normally I'd sell it for about $1400 but since they're going to be banned and will soon become collecters items I'd better raise the price to $3,000.

Let me know if you're interested. Act now before the ban goes into effect.

My guess is that the folks behind these rumors of gun bannings are - the gun makers. It's been good for business hasn't it?

Subject: RE: BS: Gun Sales Are Up
From: Rapparee
Date: 10 Nov 08 - 03:51 PM

More likely the distributors, the middlemen.

Subject: RE: BS: Gun Sales Are Up
From: Bee-dubya-ell
Date: 10 Nov 08 - 04:06 PM

Of course gun sales are up! A black man has been elected President of the US! We all know what that means, huh? Thirty million insecure white men freaking out because it's likely that the guy in the White House has a bigger Johnson than they do! Hell, they've gotta go out and overcompensate in some fashion, and guns are cheaper than Porsches.

Subject: RE: BS: Gun Sales Are Up
From: Rapparee
Date: 10 Nov 08 - 04:58 PM

And lots cheaper (but nowhere near as much fun) as blond floozies.

Subject: RE: BS: Gun Sales Are Up
From: Riginslinger
Date: 10 Nov 08 - 05:33 PM

Are blond floozie sales up too?

Subject: RE: BS: Gun Sales Are Up
From: Bobert
Date: 10 Nov 08 - 06:04 PM

Well, well, well...

Seems that The NRA's largest goal is to promote gun ownership/sales so I reckon that they owe Obama a big "Thank You"... Maybe they snuck a few bucks into his campaign??? It'd make sense, wouldn't it???

As fir me??? I ain't gonna go out and buy no new guns... I got all I need: A 22/410 over/under and a 12 guage pump... I killed two deer last year with the 22/410 with open sights... That's all I shot at, too...

Now as fir the bear that's been buggin' me??? A punkin ball outta the 12 guage would send him to that big bees nest in the sky...

But ya'll NRA'ers own Barack a big thankee...

B;~)

Subject: RE: BS: Gun Sales Are Up
From: Rapparee
Date: 10 Nov 08 - 06:46 PM

Well Bobert, I'll thank him iffen ya say so, only I cain't afford no new guns right now. How's about you send me four or five hunnert dollars and I'll go buy one? I'll call it "Ol' Bobert" after ya.

(I ain't a member of the NRA, neither. NMLRA -- National Muzzleloading Rifle Association -- yeah, but you haven't heard of many drive-bys done with a flintlock lately, have ya?)

Subject: RE: BS: Gun Sales Are Up
From: Riginslinger
Date: 10 Nov 08 - 07:12 PM

Dan'l Boone pulled one off in 1768.

Subject: RE: BS: Gun Sales Are Up
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 10 Nov 08 - 08:05 PM

I know a man who shoots a lot of squirrels with his air rifle.

I think he expects me to disapprove (- looks at me defiantly) , but I tend to think if you've got this far through life and shooting squirrels is part of the answer for you.....well that's life in all its strange manifestations.

I rather like squirrels. I like their bushy tails and the way they hold bits of food in their little hands while they eat. I couldn't do it myself.

Subject: RE: BS: Gun Sales Are Up
From: Rapparee
Date: 10 Nov 08 - 09:11 PM

You would if you were hungry enough, or your family was. Also duckies, bunnies, birdies, snakes, beavers, guinea pigs, ants, maggots, bees, hamsters, termites, rats, and Bambi. You can serve it up with roasted cattail roots and some fiddleheads, with wild berries and wild nuts sweetened with wild honey or maple (or birch) syrup/sugar for dessert.

Subject: RE: BS: Gun Sales Are Up
From: Riginslinger
Date: 11 Nov 08 - 09:18 PM

It looks like assault rifles are the order of the day, so it's probably not deer hunters buying them.



US stocks up on semi-automatic rifles
Track this topic   Print story Post comment Obama menaces right to bear Kalashnikovs

By Lester Haines • Get more from this author

Posted in Government, 10th November 2008 12:06 GMT

Webcast: Delivering The Application Platform

US gun dealers are enjoying a boom in sales of semi-automatic rifles amid fears that Barack Obama may clamp down on selling certain firearms once he's settled into the White House, Reuters reports.

David Greenberg, owner of the splendidly-named Second Amendment Family Gun Shop, in Bisbee, Arizona, told the news agency: "The day after the election, I had many more calls than usual from people looking for semi-automatic rifles. There seems to be a fear they will be banned, and it's fairly likely. Obama and Biden are driven to eliminate firearms from the face of the country."

Tony Aeschliman, spokesman for the National Shooting Sports Foundation, said: "Gun owners are afraid of what Obama is going to do as far as guns. He has a clear record of being against us."

Houston gun store owner Jim Pruett, whose sales "more than tripled on the Saturday before the election to $35,000", chipped in with: "It's always been the liberal or Democratic agenda to restrict gun ownership."

Dealer Steve Sechler of McPherson, Kansas, conformed that "demand at a gun show last weekend jumped by more than 50 percent as buyers rushed to stock up on guns including Kalashnikov and AR-15 rifles". He noted: "Most of the people there were cussing Obama and saying we need home defense."

While Obama "stated his support for the right to bear arms" during his electoral campaign, he and his right hand man Joe Biden are in favour of a ban on assault weapons and "common sense measures" to keep firearms out of the reach of children and criminals.

The Democratic governor of Ohio, Ted Strickland, told a rally last month he'd "spoken directly to Obama about the right to bear arms", and assured: "If you are a sportsman, if you are a gun owner, if you are someone that honors and respects the Second Amendment, you have nothing to fear from Barack Obama."

The National Rifle Association is unsurprisingly having none of it, and has described Obama a "serious threat to Second Amendment liberties". ®

Subject: RE: BS: Gun Sales Are Up
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 11 Nov 08 - 10:20 PM

'It looks like assault rifles are the order of the day, so it's probably not deer hunters buying them.'

Read carefully. Deer season certainly is part of the increased ammunition sales.

Subject: RE: BS: Gun Sales Are Up
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 12 Nov 08 - 02:45 AM

NONE of the amendments to the Constitution should be messed with...including freedom of speech, Habeus Corpus, the right to assemble, bear arms, due process of law, innocent until proven guilty, freedom of religion,.etc...NONE of them!!

If he wants to 'change' Washington, fine..but lets leave our form of government alone!..I think a man can be president, as many were before him, and hopefully many can follow, and change corrupt things, in government...the Constitution shouldn't be one of them.

Subject: RE: BS: Gun Sales Are Up
From: GUEST,redhorse at work
Date: 12 Nov 08 - 08:34 AM

But if all change to the Constitution is wrong, how come the Constitution has Amendments?

nick

Subject: RE: BS: Gun Sales Are Up
From: Rapparee
Date: 12 Nov 08 - 09:11 AM

If the Amendments shouldn't be messed with how's come we don't still have Prohibition?

Subject: RE: BS: Gun Sales Are Up
From: GUEST,TIA
Date: 12 Nov 08 - 12:41 PM

Okay, no changes to the constitution have been proposed. The flap, quite rightly, is over what exactly the founders *meant* by the second amendment, and forget for a moment what they may or may not have meant, what makes sense (within the wording of course) in 2008 and beyond? Remember, there were no automatic weapons or bazookas in the 18th century.

Subject: RE: BS: Gun Sales Are Up
From: Rapparee
Date: 12 Nov 08 - 12:43 PM

Oh, but there were! 18th Century firearms would discharge their entire load of bullets with one squeeze of the trigger!

Subject: RE: BS: Gun Sales Are Up
From: gnu
Date: 12 Nov 08 - 04:23 PM

As for what was not available "back then", whatever it was, the government did not have them either. The words must be taken at fair value.

The whole deal is that The People have the right to defend themselves, from ANY agressor, government included.

I went through a battery of tests before I was accepted by the Royal Canadian Military College. I recall the very last question... "Do you not think that the military, on behalf of the government, could destroy the populace?" My relpy was, "Who would they govern?"

Subject: RE: BS: Gun Sales Are Up
From: Amos
Date: 12 Nov 08 - 04:53 PM

In other news:

UNITED NATIONS (Reuters) - King Abdullah of Saudi Arabia told world leaders at a U.N. interfaith meeting on Wednesday that terrorism is the enemy of all religions, calling for a united front to combat it and promote tolerance.

"We state with a unified voice that religions through which Almighty God sought to bring happiness to mankind should not be turned into instruments to cause misery," the king said, opening a U.N. General Assembly meeting initiated by Riyadh.

"Terrorism and criminality are the enemies of every religion and every civilization. They would not have emerged except for the absence of the principle of tolerance."

The two-day forum marks a new direction for Saudi Arabia, the world's leading oil exporter, whose austere "Wahhabi" Islam came in for criticism after the September 11 attacks in 2001 on the United States, Riyadh's main ally and guarantor of security.

....

Throughout history, Abdullah told the forum, conflicts over religious and cultural issues had led to intolerance, "causing devastating wars and bloodshed."

"Human beings were created as equals and partners on this planet," he said. "Either they live together in peace and harmony or they will inevitably be consumed by the flames of misunderstanding, malice and hatred."

U.S. President George W. Bush, British Prime Minister Gordon Brown, Pakistani President Asif Ali Zardari, Afghan President Hamid Karzai and leaders and diplomats from some 60 other countries are taking part in the gathering.

Israeli President Shimon Peres seized the rare chance of sharing a forum with Abdullah to directly address him, praising his words and a Saudi Middle East peace initiative. Riyadh has no ties with the Jewish state and its officials shun Israelis.

"Your majesty, the king of Saudi Arabia, I was listening to your message. I wish that your voice will become the prevailing voice of the whole region, of all people. It's right, it's needed, it's promising," Peres said.

"The initiative's portrayal of our region's future provides hope to the people and inspires confidence in the nations."

The 2002 initiative promotes the formula of Israel trading occupied Arab land in return for normal relations.

PROMOTING HARMONY

U.N. Secretary General Ban Ki-moon also praised Abdullah, calling the meeting "a truly inspiring initiative for global harmony."

Subject: RE: BS: Gun Sales Are Up
From: kendall
Date: 12 Nov 08 - 07:44 PM

As far as I know, laws are passed by congress; not the president.

To call Biden anti gun is silly. He is against assault rifles. So am I.

Subject: RE: BS: Gun Sales Are Up
From: Riginslinger
Date: 12 Nov 08 - 09:23 PM

That's only because he wants to reserve the right to shoot his mouth off.

Subject: RE: BS: Gun Sales Are Up
From: goatfell
Date: 13 Nov 08 - 06:47 AM

aye watch yerself Barrick

Subject: RE: BS: Gun Sales Are Up
From: kendall
Date: 13 Nov 08 - 07:47 AM

They mentioned this on national news yesterday; and they showed a young man buying an assault rifle at a price of $1000.00. Ignorance breeds fear, fear breeds violence. And the NRA keeps raking in the dough from their fear mongering.

Subject: RE: BS: Gun Sales Are Up
From: Riginslinger
Date: 13 Nov 08 - 08:41 AM

True, but the Democratic Party raked in a lot more dough.

Subject: RE: BS: Gun Sales Are Up
From: Wesley S
Date: 13 Nov 08 - 01:10 PM

Those are two different issues. The Democrats raised more money for their Presidental candidate. The NRA raises money to influence congress. Apples and oranges.

Subject: RE: BS: Gun Sales Are Up
From: Riginslinger
Date: 13 Nov 08 - 01:38 PM

Still, it's all about fear!

Subject: RE: BS: Gun Sales Are Up
From: gnu
Date: 13 Nov 08 - 01:55 PM

Hmmmm... my last post was NOT meant as an approval of individual citizens buying HD hardware. Assault rifles and other HD hardware... ban em!

I realize it is hard for me to argue that was not my intent. I apologize.

Subject: RE: BS: Gun Sales Are Up
From: Wesley S
Date: 13 Nov 08 - 02:03 PM

No it's not about fear to elect Obama as president. It's about hope. At least it was for the majority of Americans that voted for him. The folks who voted out of fear lost the election. Plain and simple.

Subject: RE: BS: Gun Sales Are Up
From: GUEST,TIA
Date: 13 Nov 08 - 03:45 PM

The combination of this thread, and this one:
http://www.mudcat.org/thread.cfm?threadid=116184&messages=6
scares me.

Subject: RE: BS: Gun Sales Are Up
From: Riginslinger
Date: 13 Nov 08 - 05:38 PM

Maybe their fears are ungrounded, and Obama will be happy to let them own whatever firearms they want.

Subject: RE: BS: Gun Sales Are Up
From: Rapparee
Date: 13 Nov 08 - 05:43 PM

As I've said before, Obama is going to have far, far more to deal with right away than issues like gay marriage, gun control, and abortion. These, while worthy (I guess), become peripheral when folks see their savings vanish with their job, pension, and home.

Subject: RE: BS: Gun Sales Are Up
From: Big Mick
Date: 13 Nov 08 - 05:52 PM

I will re-post this as it appears that some folks would rather post foolish speculation, based on their own biases, than comment on fact. READ THE DAMN THING, and then comment. There is plenty more out there on his position with regard to 2nd Amendment rights. He believes the DC decision was correct, he believes folks have the right to keep and bear arms, and most importantly, he understands that the bridge that must be built is between folks for whom guns represent drive by shootings and dead children; and folks for whom guns are part of their heritage and lifestyle.

Here it is:

From the Democratic Debate on January 15, 2008, moderated by Tim Russert.

RUSSERT: Senator Obama, when you were in the state senate, you talked about licensing and registering gun owners. Would you do that as president?

OBAMA: I don't think that we can get that done. But what I do think we can do is to provide just some common-sense enforcement. One good example -- this is consistently blocked -- the efforts by law enforcement to obtain the information required to trace back guns that have been used in crimes to unscrupulous gun dealers.

That's not something that the NRA has allowed to get through Congress. And, as president, I intend to make it happen.

But here's the broader context that I think is important for us to remember. We essentially have two realities, when it comes to guns, in this country. You've got the tradition of lawful gun ownership, that all of us saw, as we travel around rural parts of the country.

And it is very important for many Americans to be able to hunt, fish, take their kids out, teach them how to shoot.

And then you've got the reality of 34 Chicago public school students who get shot down on the streets of Chicago.

We can reconcile those two realities by making sure the Second Amendment is respected and that people are able to lawfully own guns, but that we also start cracking down on the kinds of abuses of firearms that we see on the streets.

Despite what some of you seem to think, there will be no movement to ban guns. One of the things O'bama (still can't help meself) successfully did was to not allow wedge issues to be used any longer. He, and most leading Dems, understand at long last that by using the issue of inner city crime as a reason for banning all guns simply drives off the most important part of the base in the Democratic Party, that being middle class folks. Someone above made the erroneous statement that the majority of folks in this country would support a gun ban, or something like that. In fact, most Americans are firmly in support of the right to keep and bear arms. Our President (elect) understands this. He understands we must deal with the problem of violence in poor urban areas, and that we must respect the rights of average citizens. Solve hopelessness and you will end most crime in urban environments. My guess is he will focus in economic areas almost exclusively, and we will see little attention paid to this, in spite of what the wackos believe.


Mick

Subject: RE: BS: Gun Sales Are Up
From: Rapparee
Date: 13 Nov 08 - 06:01 PM

Dead on target, Mick. 10-ring, bullseye.

Exactly what I've been trying to say.

Subject: RE: BS: Gun Sales Are Up
From: Riginslinger
Date: 13 Nov 08 - 06:14 PM

I wonder what the guys buying the guns are reading. It could be they believed Obama when he said he would opt for public financing of his campaign.

Subject: RE: BS: Gun Sales Are Up
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 14 Nov 08 - 05:52 PM

Rig-
Why are you still bitching about that? It cost the American taxpayer a lot more so sponsor McCain's loss than Obama's win.

Subject: RE: BS: Gun Sales Are Up
From: Riginslinger
Date: 14 Nov 08 - 05:57 PM

I'm not bitching, and if you consider Obama supporters to be tax payers, it didn't, but we're trying to determine why people are suddenly buying guns, in spite of the reality that it's helping the economny.

Subject: RE: BS: Gun Sales Are Up
From: Rapparee
Date: 14 Nov 08 - 06:17 PM

1. Because of the mistaken notion that the Obama administration will immediately renew the "assault rifle" ban.

2. Because some of them feel they're going to need them to hunt food with.

3. Because of deliberate misinformation spread during the campaign.

Subject: RE: BS: Gun Sales Are Up
From: Riginslinger
Date: 14 Nov 08 - 06:37 PM

Well, after all, Bush told the American people to "Go shopping" as a way to help the economy. He didn't tell them what to buy.

Subject: RE: BS: Gun Sales Are Up
From: Amos
Date: 14 Nov 08 - 08:22 PM

Illinois: Suits Charge Violence by Police


By THE ASSOCIATED PRESS
Published: November 14, 2008
A lawsuit asserts that some white Chicago police officers committed hate crimes against a black family cheering Barack Obama's victory last week at their home on the city's West Side. The suit says several officers discharged pepper spray near members of the family celebrating outside. After some of the family members fled into the home, the officers battered down the front door, and shouted racial insults before leaving, according to the suit. The eight plaintiffs are seeking $50,000 in damages.

Another suit filed last week says a black couple, Christina Ballard and Cornelius Voss, were driving home in Chicago with family members on election night when white officers drove alongside their vehicle. That lawsuit says that after some of the children cheered for Mr. Obama through the open car windows, the officers discharged pepper spray and yelled "white power" and a racial slur. A police spokeswoman, Monique Bond, said the accusations would be investigated.

---

These offenses are committed by people with the same rationale of fear and hatred, solved by violence never-ending.


A

Subject: RE: BS: Gun Sales Are Up
From: Rapparee
Date: 14 Nov 08 - 09:41 PM

They should be investigated and, if guilty, the officers appropriately disciplined.

One of the people I supported for County Commissioner wasn't elected, but I'm not getting all bent out of shape about it. Why, I haven't even bought an 81mm mortar or yelled about it or anything.

Subject: RE: BS: Gun Sales Are Up
From: Bee-dubya-ell
Date: 14 Nov 08 - 10:33 PM

Maybe the real reason gun sales are up is that all the racist bigot assholes are planning to protest Obama's election by staging simultaneous mass suicides.

Subject: RE: BS: Gun Sales Are Up
From: Riginslinger
Date: 14 Nov 08 - 10:53 PM

Doubtful, those kinds of folks usually take bad news out on somebody else.

Subject: RE: BS: Gun Sales Are Up
From: Riginslinger
Date: 15 Nov 08 - 10:25 PM

"...the officers discharged pepper spray and yelled "white power" and a racial slur."


                Even if they were radical racists, it seems funny they'd do that in uniform. I thought that's what the white sheets were all about.

Subject: RE: BS: Gun Sales Are Up
From: Rapparee
Date: 16 Nov 08 - 08:14 PM

Went to the range today. Didn't see anybody with an AR-type of weapon, just some old dudes chronographing handloads and a family using a .22 to shoot paper. I shot paper, sighting in my .30-30; if it had been a match I would have scored 130/150, 2X, which ain't too shabby for a guy who's 63, wears glasses and hearing aids, and has diabetes and mild COPD.

Subject: RE: BS: Gun Sales Are Up
From: Riginslinger
Date: 16 Nov 08 - 10:01 PM

Rapaire - I'm not familiar with the scoring, so I'm not sure what that means. I don't know who buys all those paramilitary weapons, I never seen them around here either (Oregon), but that's what the media tell us is selling.

                   On the other hand, the media tells us a whole lot of things.

Subject: RE: BS: Gun Sales Are Up
From: Rapparee
Date: 16 Nov 08 - 11:51 PM

I fired 15 bullets; "X" is the dead center (and smallest part of) the 10-ring, which is the highest score. Therefore, most of the hits on the target were "in the black" or scoring 7 or higher; one was a 4 (because I jerked, or deliberately pulled, the trigger instead of using a firm, steady pull and yes, I know better). An "X" scores a 10, but the number of X's is counted because they're dead center on the target.

I wasn't going for scote, though: I was trying to set the sights on the rifle (I do NOT use telescopic, laser, or anything other than the old-fashioned iron sights God intended) so that they would consistently fire 1.6 inches above the X at 100 yards. Given the ballistic flight pattern of the bullet this would put the rifle dead on center at 150 yards; 200 yards is about the maximum distance for a .30-30 with iron sights if you're hunting. Yes, it will shoot accurately beyond that but I also know my own capabilities and those of the weapon.

Down at the local gun shop I've seen lots of people buying hunting rifles, but only one who ordered an "assault rifle" and he was a cop buying it for the local police department (they needed one more for a reserve). Our local cops now carry a Glock .45 pistol AND a Taser, with an M-4 carbine (a military-type weapon) in the trunk and a 12 gauge shotgun locked in the front seat near the driver. They also have available the "orange shotguns" that shoot "beanbag rounds"; standing orders are to use non-lethal weapons if at all possible, if weapons use is needed.

Each cop has to be "Tasered" before a Taser is issued to them so that they KNOW what happens. So far they have used a Taser once, when a man pulled a gun on a cop and the cop's partner responded. The Tasered chap said that he wished they'd just shot him instead.

Subject: RE: BS: Gun Sales Are Up
From: Riginslinger
Date: 17 Nov 08 - 08:31 AM

Well that's pretty good shooting. I remember reading about Poncho Villa arming his men with lever action 30-30's, and they did pretty well with them. If you look up the ballistics on an AK-47 it's pretty close to a 30-30. So maybe Poncho Villa was way ahead of his time.
               Also, sometime around the turn of the last century, I read about a Turkish army that was armed with Winchesters and literally wiped out some Russian troops armed with some kind of single-shot weapons.

               The news media has turned into a circus anymore, network A trying to one-up network B until the truth is lost. It could be that people were just getting supplies for deer hunting, and the reporters didn't know the difference between a lever action 30-30 and an AK-47. It wouldn't surprise me one bit.

Subject: RE: BS: Gun Sales Are Up
From: Rapparee
Date: 17 Nov 08 - 09:28 AM

The 7.62 x 39 Russian cartridge used in the AK-47 is a lousy deer cartridge -- it's fully jacketed, light, and moves too fast, and will simply pass through the animal, which means that unless it hits bone or a vital organ the animal can run off for a very long distance before dying a slow, nasty death. With the .30-30 you at least have a cartridge designed for taking game -- it's slower, heavier, and "mushrooms" so that the shocking power (hydrostatic shock) is much greater. The deer is dropped quickly and as humanely as possible.

There are a lot of 7.62x39R cartridges out there because the former Eastern bloc countries are dumping their ammunition supplies in the US. They are switching to the 5.5x mm family (which is also a lousy deer cartridge), with includes the M-4, the AK-74, the various "bulldog" weapons such as the Steyr, and the M-16.

Subject: RE: BS: Gun Sales Are Up
From: Riginslinger
Date: 17 Nov 08 - 11:41 AM

Yes, I suppose any military round would be bad for hunting, in that they are basically designed to wound.

            I always thought it ironic that the replacement arm for the AK-47 would be the AK-74. And I suspect that any time a news reporter sees one, it's an AK-47 to him, regardless.

Subject: RE: BS: Gun Sales Are Up
From: goatfell
Date: 17 Nov 08 - 01:04 PM

the yanks have the right to bear arms, and they also think that they have right to murder people as well.
http://ericbogle.net/lyrics/lyricspdf/keeperoftheflame.pdf.

please read the words

Subject: RE: BS: Gun Sales Are Up
From: Ebbie
Date: 18 Nov 08 - 02:53 AM

You realize, don't you, that that song is satire? That the gun lover in that song is sick?

Subject: RE: BS: Gun Sales Are Up
From: Riginslinger
Date: 18 Nov 08 - 06:49 AM

I couldn't get it to work!

Subject: RE: BS: Gun Sales Are Up
From: Rapparee
Date: 18 Nov 08 - 09:13 AM

Another day, another man for breakfast.

Guess I'll just take a shower, get dressed, and go shoot somebody. It's my duty as an American and especially as a kill-crazy, baby-killing, gun-owning, veteran of the Vietnam Era. Oh, wait. I'll have to kill six or seven people since I haven't killed anyone in the last week or so; otherwise I'll be cited for Failure To Murder Enough People.

Gotta keep the average up, you know!

Or maybe I'll just drive to work, go to the three meetings on today's agenda, go home afterwards, eat dinner, have a beer, watch a LITTLE television (History Channel, most likely), go to bed, and leave the killin' for another day.

But my average is going to drop way lower than, say, Ebbie's this year.

Subject: RE: BS: Gun Sales Are Up
From: goatfell
Date: 18 Nov 08 - 11:31 AM

well as far as I'm aware anyone who owns a gun must be sick, or else why have a thing that can kill, I mean what other reason is there to own a gun but to kill.

Subject: RE: BS: Gun Sales Are Up
From: beardedbruce
Date: 18 Nov 08 - 11:35 AM

let me see... How many cars are there, and how many people killed each year in accidents?

Compare this to the number of guns and the number killed by guns ( by accident AND purposely) and tell me why we should allow private ownership of cars- We could all take streetcars, or trains, after all.

Besides, there is NO Constitutional right to have or drive a car.

Subject: RE: BS: Gun Sales Are Up
From: beardedbruce
Date: 18 Nov 08 - 11:40 AM

http://www.saf.org/LawReviews/Larish1.html

Subject: RE: BS: Gun Sales Are Up
From: Rapparee
Date: 18 Nov 08 - 12:04 PM

No reason to own a knife, either. They're only used for cutting and slashing and stabbing -- anyone who owns a knife must be sick and/or be trying to compensate for a perceived phallic deficiency.

Subject: RE: BS: Gun Sales Are Up
From: Ebbie
Date: 18 Nov 08 - 12:10 PM

Rig, I had to type in that url. It's a PDF.

Rapaire, vas?

Tom, are you a vegetarian? If you are not, somebody is shooting and stabbing in your name.

Subject: RE: BS: Gun Sales Are Up
From: Riginslinger
Date: 18 Nov 08 - 09:10 PM

Okay, I found it--thank's Ebbie. I think he misspelled Kalashnikov, but that might have been poetic license.

Subject: RE: BS: Gun Sales Are Up
From: Bee-dubya-ell
Date: 19 Nov 08 - 08:08 AM

well as far as I'm aware anyone who owns a gun must be sick, or else why have a thing that can kill, I mean what other reason is there to own a gun but to kill.

You're right. Ultimately, the only reason to own a gun is to kill. Why is that sick? I own guns though I don't hunt and seldom even shoot at targets. I live in the country where encounters with potentially dangerous animals are pretty common. Over the years I've shot venomous snakes that have taken up residence in my fish pond, feral animals that were attacking my own pets or livestock, and animals that have been severely injured by hunters, cars, or fights with other animals. Are those sick behaviors?

Subject: RE: BS: Gun Sales Are Up
From: goatfell
Date: 19 Nov 08 - 09:54 AM

I am not a vegetarian, and I could go on with this argument, saying that I eat meat, things that were once alive and being killed, but so can a vegetarian say the same thing as well because vegitables and fruit grow and in order to grow, they must be alive if not then it's a mircle that you plant them in the ground one day, and the next day they become fully grown veitables and fruit, without growning or living.

by god that is a mircle, so that these vegetarians someone is stabbig and killing in your name too.

but as I say I don't want to get into this sstypid argument, because you never win do you?

Subject: RE: BS: Gun Sales Are Up
From: Rapparee
Date: 19 Nov 08 - 02:34 PM

You know, Goatfell, you're one of the few people here who have recognized that vegetarians, like meat-eaters, eat formerly living things.

Subject: RE: BS: Gun Sales Are Up
From: goatfell
Date: 20 Nov 08 - 08:07 AM

thank you,

but try telling that to them

Subject: RE: BS: Gun Sales Are Up
From: Riginslinger
Date: 20 Nov 08 - 11:33 PM

Unfortunately, vegetables are too dignified to moo, bleat, growl, or cluck, so their sacrafice often goes unnoticed.

Subject: RE: BS: Gun Sales Are Up
From: goatfell
Date: 21 Nov 08 - 06:53 AM

but they are alive when they are growing, anyway you eat what you want to and I'll eat what I want to

Subject: RE: BS: Gun Sales Are Up
From: Riginslinger
Date: 21 Nov 08 - 08:46 PM

This, from a Tucson Television Station:

Gun sales skyrocket after election
Posted: Nov 21, 2008 04:20 PM PST
Gun sales skyrocket after election


Ever since the presidential election gun sales have been going through the roof nationwide and here in Tucson. Some owners fear the new administration will tighten gun rules and laws.

"It's a second amendment right to keep and bear arms. I think everyone that's legal should be able to protect their homes, protect themselves," says gun owner Andy Partney.

Robert Ward II has been hunting since he was a young boy.

"It's going to get to the point where just the cops have guns and the criminal have guns because you can always get guns on the black market," says Ward. "Basically I just went and bought a new firearm here a few weeks back it was kind of an impulse buy."

Although President elect Obama hasn't outlined any changes in the gun laws but Tucsonans aren't taking any chances. They're flocking to gun stores across town.

Second Amendment Sports says they've actually sold out of a number of their high powered weapons.

"We don't have a single AR left, we're very low on AK's, a lot of our high capacity hand guns, we're out," says Matt Janes.

For now, the future is uncertain and gun owners hope the currents are enforced.

"People like me that don't have a criminal history or don't do anything wrong, we're going to lose our right for no reason," says Ward.