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BS: The Irish Peace Process
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Subject: RE: BS: The Irish Peace Process From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 19 Mar 09 - 08:17 AM Hilary Clinton has given her opinion of the murders. "The recent attacks which killed two British soldiers and a police officer are an affront to the values of every community, every ethnicity, every religion and every nation that seeks peace," she added. http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/northern_ireland/foyle_and_west/7946993.stm |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Irish Peace Process From: Don(Wyziwyg)T Date: 18 Mar 09 - 07:08 PM |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Irish Peace Process From: Don(Wyziwyg)T Date: 18 Mar 09 - 07:07 PM ""Any views on Obama's "they judge progress by what you build and not what you tear down" ?"" Now that seems to me a more useful response than just another in a long list of formal condemnations. His take on the response of the people is in accord with mine, as posted above. Somehow, by praising the positive response, rather than condemning the negative act, he adds to the feeling of optimism I have about this affair. This has also been the first occasion when those who stll keep their weapons could have decided to use them. The fact that they promptly indicated their refusal to do so bodes well for the future. Teribus, with reference to your PM, I am puzzled as to why you chose not to post it for others to discuss, since it seemed pertinent to the ongoing debate. Don T. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Irish Peace Process From: Ireland Date: 18 Mar 09 - 07:05 PM "Someone once told me, you should explain all reasoning's (preferably with truth) as it helps the end reader to better judge and understand the situation. It also makes it easier to understand the logic and arrive at their own conclusion. Always & no matter the case, include both sides of the story to balance things out. Your post should always be written from a neutral point of view. " Pity the original poster did not have the spherical fortitude to live up to the standards they place on others. That is the reason Ireland is in the way it is. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Irish Peace Process From: GUEST,lox Date: 18 Mar 09 - 06:49 PM As with much of what emanates from the mouths of politicians it is wonderfully vague ... some political leaders are famous for tearing down beautiful artefacts and replacing them with monuments to bureaucracy and tyranny ... in the name of progress. However all joking aside, I do respect and appreciate his apparent show of support and respect for the peace process and of the desires of peaceful progressive Northern Irish people regardless of their religious, cultural or political affiliations. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Irish Peace Process From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 18 Mar 09 - 05:48 PM Any views on Obama's "they judge progress by what you build and not what you tear down" ? |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Irish Peace Process From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 18 Mar 09 - 05:44 PM Victor, if you are through trying to discredit Ireland, I would be interested in your opinion of my reply to your first post here. Did I clear up any of your concerns? Which remain? |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Irish Peace Process From: Ireland Date: 18 Mar 09 - 02:36 PM I honestly believe this person has no idea what is going on, I think someone who got scalped by Big Mick at the weekend for their intimidation is trying to get their own back.
This ends the public discussion of personal messages and questioned identity. If you have anything else to say about this, please contact me or Big Mick. Now, back to discussion of the Irish Peace Process. -Joe Offer- joe@mudcat.org |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Irish Peace Process From: GUEST,lox Date: 18 Mar 09 - 01:56 PM or the rest of us ... Irelands response is wide open. Till proved otherwise I will assume he/she has nothing to hide. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Irish Peace Process From: greg stephens Date: 18 Mar 09 - 01:25 PM Well, Victor, have you had a PM from Ireland or haven't you? What's going on? I suspect someone is having you both on. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Irish Peace Process From: Ireland Date: 18 Mar 09 - 12:00 PM If you are genuine I will do all I can to help, are you getting more pm's? If so post them or send them to me please. I do not do what you accusing me of such acts and your reluctance to put forward evidence is doing you no favours. Here is my last word with whoever posted this, I have asked Joe to look at my account and see who I have pm'ed this last two days. Total list of my pm's since I came here show me where any is sent to Victor, I am sure Joe can confirm this. PM Big Mick (3) PM Big Tim (2) PM Black Beauty (3) PM DougR (2) PM Gareth (1) PM InOBU (4) PM Joe Offer (10) PM katlaughing (2) PM Keith A of Hertford (5) PM Leadfingers (1) PM McGrath of Harlow (6) PM mg (2) PM skarpi (2) PM Teribus (1) PM The Pooka (5) I will do all I can to put an end to this I am not a liar. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Irish Peace Process From: Victor in Mapperton Date: 18 Mar 09 - 11:24 AM I request assistance as to how to put a block on this individual. Would someone who maintains this site please contact me. Thank you. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Irish Peace Process From: Ireland Date: 18 Mar 09 - 11:18 AM You have left me with no choice but to call you a liar, pm me the message if it offends your sensibilities. In no way would I resort to such nonsense,put up or retract your lies. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Irish Peace Process From: Victor in Mapperton Date: 18 Mar 09 - 11:05 AM No one has "hacked" my account as you put it, would you please just leave me alone. No I will not post your filth on this page, you know very well what you wrote Ireland. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Irish Peace Process From: Ireland Date: 18 Mar 09 - 10:05 AM Any chance of posting the pm please,I am interested in what I wrote, considering I have never pm'ed Victor. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Irish Peace Process From: Ireland Date: 18 Mar 09 - 07:42 AM I feel I have to make an apology to the real Victor as it seems his account has been hacked, wow AR where do yo stop? If you have the pm please do us all a favour and post it. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Irish Peace Process From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 18 Mar 09 - 06:36 AM Obama hs spoken on the dissident murders. "And the real question was this", he said. "When tested, how would the people of Northern Ireland respond?" (to the murders) "Now we know the answer: They responded heroically. They and their leaders on both sides have condemned this violence and refrained from the old partisan impulses. "They've shown they judge progress by what you build and not what you tear down. And they know that the future is too important to cede to those who are mired in the past." http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/northern_ireland/7949550.stm |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Irish Peace Process From: Victor in Mapperton Date: 18 Mar 09 - 04:28 AM I have just received a filthy disgusting private message from this person above called Ireland warning me to stay off this thread. Charming, it takes a very brave man to send such threats. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Irish Peace Process From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 18 Mar 09 - 04:27 AM Oh, and when were Irish threads EVER happy, cheerful, light-hearted, and joyful? Not the NI political threads I think! |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Irish Peace Process From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 18 Mar 09 - 04:24 AM Victor, I do not feel that your post describes my position. (I wouldn't, would I!) I know the North was misgoverned for years, and that Britain is culpable. I have never, EVER, denied that. So far OK? Come the 70s. Civil Rights movement. I supported them then, and I still do. Everyone I know and knew did. So far OK? What to do about it? NICRA, and then SDLP believed in non violent politcal action. They opposed PIRA. They had the overwhelming support of the Nationalist people. That is an undisputed fact and is easily proveable. I just happen to agree with them. Why is that not OK? It does not prove PIRA was wrong. The majority is not always right. But if you have an issue, address the FACT that I just agree with the Nationalist majority. Now can we move on 40 years please? |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Irish Peace Process From: Ireland Date: 17 Mar 09 - 10:41 PM Sorry must apologise to Mr Vincent for thinking he was someone else. I have to ask though what are you on about, we are not being asked to compare and contrast, nor give an academical dissertation as we reply to people who use the same literary tactic that I use and yet you do not castigate them in the same manner. In general when people discuss topics they base their replies on their own experience and cut and paste is not my style never has been since it was made aware to me that it is frowned upon. What I have done is back up my views and opinions with facts where possible and with first hand experience of what it is like to live in N.Ireland,are you able to do so? You see the St Patricks day business as a party maybe an excuse to get drunk, whereas the real followers of St Patrick see this as a time of remembering our Holy Saint. Which Sir does not start nor end in drunkenness and the false sentimentality and patronizing that it brings about of which your post seems a prime example. We have another example of the hijacking of this religious celebration with alcohol,is the rioting in the HolyLands area by students, who like some use this as an excuse to get drunk and over emotional. Do try to keep an excuse to get drunk as far from the celebration of our Holy Saints as possible please and maybe some people may not look as hypocritical as they do. BTW how should I explain to you that the thugs who rioted in Lurgan caused the St Patrick's Day celebration, held for children, to be canceled out of fear for children's safety and well being,using your standard you set out. Would I really need to compare and contrast and be "neutral" or just say thugs ruined an annual religious event for children. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Irish Peace Process From: Ireland Date: 17 Mar 09 - 10:07 PM Not rising to the bait AR. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Irish Peace Process From: Victor in Mapperton Date: 17 Mar 09 - 07:27 PM That is indeed correct sir. I have just spent the most wonderful day with some Irish friends celebrating Saint Patrick's day in their home. Keith A of Hertford & Mr.Ireland, Someone once told me, you should explain all reasoning's (preferably with truth) as it helps the end reader to better judge and understand the situation. It also makes it easier to understand the logic and arrive at their own conclusion. Always & no matter the case, include both sides of the story to balance things out. Your post should always be written from a neutral point of view. After thirty years of seemingly endless death, injury and destruction in Ireland your 'blame the IRA' school of thought has a certain attraction for only the same few members on every thread. these people seem to find it difficult to understand why the fighting started. We were at fault Keith, successive British governments were at fault, they treated the Irish people with contempt and murdered thousands in the name of the protestant faith. They stole land and property from ordinary people, yes ordinary people who did not take up the sword against them. I agree with you the IRA murdered and bombed without consideration for man nor beast, please remember our government colluded with Loyalist groups in Ulster to kill hundreds of innocent people at the same time as this was going on. The Dublin and Monaghan bombings are one example. Irish threads on Mudcat were once happy, cheerful, light-hearted, and joyful. Now Mr.Ireland & Keith A. swiftly brought an end to this by their constant banging on about the IRA and posting lots of figures of only Irish deeds, not British. It's as if you cut & paste the same comments on every Irish thread you visit. At best they are boring, at worst it is down right insulting and abusive. Please reflect on what I have said and give consideration to throwing your big mixing spoon into your dustbin. This site is no place for your toxic one sided arguement. I bid you goodnight. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Irish Peace Process From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 17 Mar 09 - 07:06 PM Northern Ireland IS, until its inhabitants decide by democratic vote to change its status, a part of Great Britain. Northern Ireland is not,never has been, and never could be a part of "Great Britain". Great Britain is an island, not a country. It contains England, Scotland and Wales. Together with Northern Ireland it makes up "the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland". |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Irish Peace Process From: Stringsinger Date: 17 Mar 09 - 01:56 PM The simple problem is the use of violence to solve dilemmas. it simply doesn't work. Nationalism is a double-edged sword. A lot depends upon how far the Nationalist wants to widen the circle of inclusion. There is something ironic when the genetic make-up people from Ireland, Northern Ireland, Britain, and Scotland are pretty much the same. The same is true with the Mid-east with Jews, Palestinians, Arabs of all persuasions and Iranians. Their similarities outweigh their differences. In each case, they are from the same genetic gene pool. The differences are ideological in nature stemming from religious, political or social bias and each of these is used as a weapon to instigate further useless violence. The solution is cross-culturalization so that the warring parties really understand each other. This is the history of the evolution of mankind and the reason that we haven't destroyed each other so far. Frank |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Irish Peace Process From: Ireland Date: 16 Mar 09 - 03:34 PM I'm keeping a copy of that lox because that is what nationalism is. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Irish Peace Process From: GUEST,lox Date: 16 Mar 09 - 03:00 PM Nationalism. To me this means loving ones country. It means being proud of ones cultural identity. It means identifying with ones own nation and having a care for it. It means nurturing its children. It means taking responsibility for ensuring their right to peacefully grow and coexist and providing them with a safe happy home. It means doing everything to make sure they NEVER play with petrol bombs, guns, ... lives ... It means making sure that psychotic murderers never come into contact with them or lead them into harms way. If you want war for our children then you have no love for your country - you have no self respect or care for our descendants. This is not war, it is vandalism of a fledgling but functioning peaceful society for most. We've had enough of paranoia and fear and those who bring it - like PIRA - are in my view in the same category as the Black and Tans and Oliver Cromwell in their contempt for the children of Ireland. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Irish Peace Process From: Ireland Date: 16 Mar 09 - 02:31 PM Jean McConville springs to mind when Divis is mentioned, murdered for showing human kindness. It is pathetic we have idiots who see the children of today out rioting just like their parents generation did as something good. Thank heavens a community club supervisor in Lurgan tell's us that the young going there see the troubles as nothing to do with them, they were not born during the "war". From the mouth of babes I would say they are asking to be left alone but dissident do not care about that they have hooked the few. This is the problem if the young grow up and have no problems with their neighbours then the possibility that a United Ireland would seem remote or at the very least not the first thing on their mind. The funny thing about the riots is these idiots are burning out their own neighbours how sad. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Irish Peace Process From: Ireland Date: 16 Mar 09 - 11:56 AM If American influence in Ireland especially N.Ireland means little why do we have our MLA's breaking their necks trying to be the first to meet US presidents. We need the same response from Obama as Bush gave to terrorists to let the dissidents know that their form of politics is not welcome. These people look to the world press to see who condemns them and takes comfort from those who do not, especially those who have opposed them in the past, different administration different opinion. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Irish Peace Process From: Don(Wyziwyg)T Date: 16 Mar 09 - 11:32 AM If Bush had kept HIS beak out of the affairs of other faraway countries, American soldiers would not be dying in an illegal war. Don T. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Irish Peace Process From: Don(Wyziwyg)T Date: 16 Mar 09 - 11:16 AM It seems a bit of a stretch, Teribus, for you to be castigating Obama for minding his own business. Northern Ireland was never the business of the United States except in so far as it had to react to its citizens funding terrorism. Since this is no longer the case, why, pray, should Obama feel obligated to involve himself in any discussion of events in that sovereign country 3000 miles outside his presidential jurisdiction? Don T. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Irish Peace Process From: Ireland Date: 16 Mar 09 - 10:43 AM My post was not trying to goad anyone sorry if you think it was,btw I listen to David Dunseith every day, but have no time for that fat tub Nolan. For myself all I can say is I had a very rough time at the hands of the IRA, the murders brought back terrible memories for my wife and family, who have to live with my problems every day. If people do not understand the fear that the murders brought to those harmed by the IRA they know little about here or simply do not care. Not to goad but I have to recall McGuinness saying they haven't gone away you know, referring to the IRA. As for ex IRA men informing on others I seriously doubt it. It would set a precedence that could cause an internal war within the various IRA organisations. Although from a personal point of view I wish it would happen. If you grew up in N.Ireland the words touts beware plastered every where, would have a certain resonance to such statements. Remember McGuinness and his Bloody Sunday evidence,he would not discuss or name past IRA members he would be obliged to revise that stance. An interesting bit on Bloody Sunday: http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2008/mar/19/northernireland.northernireland3 |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Irish Peace Process From: Den Date: 16 Mar 09 - 09:57 AM Sorry, I like many others have moved on so no amount of goading will change my mind. There are encouraging signs from both sides of the divide in response to the attacks of the last week. I listened this week to "Talk Back," a phone-in show from Radio Ulster in which many people including a guy who claimed to be ex PIRA who stated they would have no reservations in contacting the authorities if they had any information to impart in regard to dissident activity. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Irish Peace Process From: Ireland Date: 16 Mar 09 - 09:33 AM Here is an interesting account of the history of Ireland, as for others who said the English poked their nose in were it was not wanted might rethink when they find out.....denn denn dennnnnnnn They were asked over in the first place. look up Dermot MacMurrough and the agreement he made in 1170 with King Henry 2 of England. follow link and go to post 11. http://sluggerotoole.com/index.php/weblog/comments/whatever-happened-to-gerry-adams/ |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Irish Peace Process From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 16 Mar 09 - 05:19 AM They should. Republican paramilitary violence will give them an excuse not to. They have been using the threat of it as an excuse anyway. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Irish Peace Process From: Stu Date: 16 Mar 09 - 04:25 AM "The day of the paramilitaries is over in Northern Ireland and everybody must get behind that and let them, and those who would join them, know that" Er, that's not quite true. Loyalist paramilitaries have not disarmed and still have plenty of weapons, so it's time for them to disarm too. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Irish Peace Process From: Teribus Date: 16 Mar 09 - 02:21 AM Bill Clinton and his Administration played a significant role in moving the process along to the GFA George W. Bush and his Administration played a significant role getting the PIRA to decommission its weapons and stand down Barack Obama and his Administration have remained silent while one of America's allies has been subject to terrorist violence from an off-shoots of an organisation which in the past have been supported by citizens of the US. Immediate post 9/11, GWB's announcement of the "War on Terror" and a few choice words from Richard Haas told the terrorists in Ireland exactly on what side of the line stood if they continued. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Irish Peace Process From: meself Date: 15 Mar 09 - 04:46 PM Not sure that Obama really has much to do with it ... |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Irish Peace Process From: Stringsinger Date: 15 Mar 09 - 03:43 PM The problem that President Obama has with condemning private armies is that the US has consistently employed "Blackwater" (now Xe), Triple Canopy and other private mercenary armies in Iraq and probably Afghanistan. I applaud the musical efforts of Tommy Sands in his song "There Were Roses" and "The Music of Healing". This from my perspective does more to facilitate peace negotiations between the two sides then all the treaties and conferences can. The aggressive tribal tendencies which seem to stem from genes to ensure survival in ancient times need to be changed to fit the realities of the Twenty-First Century. "We hold these truths to be self-evident that all men may be cremated equal"... (Verne Partlow...from the song..."Ol' Man Atom". Stringsinger |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Irish Peace Process From: GUEST,Keith A o Hertford Date: 15 Mar 09 - 01:52 PM Do not hold your breath about the arrests. They will have experienced lawyers and, of course, no prosecution witnesses. It is all down to forensics or they could all walk. It seems that they failed to burn the getaway car from the pizza murders. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Irish Peace Process From: Don(Wyziwyg)T Date: 15 Mar 09 - 12:36 PM This morning some even more heartening news. A total of nine people in custody, under interrogation about the murders. A police chief who states that there will be NO military intervention, and that his men can and will cope with their job. Loyalists making it very clear that the guns will NOT be used in retaliation, and that they, like the Republicans, are committed to the political process. Peace Don T. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Irish Peace Process From: Don(Wyziwyg)T Date: 14 Mar 09 - 07:06 PM V.T. I think you are seeing this from a not particularly well informed viewpoint. Northern Ireland IS, until its inhabitants decide by democratic vote to change its status, a part of Great Britain. So to talk about sticking its nose into other peoples' business is less than accurate. Also, the two murdered engineers were in transit, leaving for Iraq or Afghanistan, I'm not quite sure which. They certainly were NOT intelligence officers, nor were they involved in any Northern Ireland military operations. All of this, however is somewhat off the point. In raking up old arguments and old grudges we are doing exactly what the killers want. Fortunately the people of Northern Ireland are NOT following suit. When I see thousands of catholic, protestant, republican, and loyalist Irishmen keeping silent vigil in protest against the murder of two British soldiers, and one Irish policeman, I am convinced that the desire for peace in the general population now negates old grudges and bitter feelings for the majority. A few despicable bigots (political, or religious, take your pick) have tried to drive a wedge between what used to be separate, warring factions, only to find that they have brought the community (for it is apparently one community now, with a few exceptions) closer together, and tightened the newly established bonds. If attacks continue, I believe that the community will flush out and remove the dissidents (hopefully by legal means). At the very least, there are probably no safe places for them to go to ground any more. Last I heard the police were questioning two suspects about the policeman's death, and three suspects for the soldiers. Long live peace in Ireland Don T. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Irish Peace Process From: Teribus Date: 14 Mar 09 - 05:15 AM Basically it boils down to this - You either have government and rule of law or you don't. There is no half-way house where you pay lip-service to rule of law but keep a private army in the wardrobe to take out and threaten the population with every time decisions are made that you don't agree with. The day of the paramilitaries is over in Northern Ireland and everybody must get behind that and let them, and those who would join them, know that. Condemnation of the recent acts from the President of the United States and senior figures in his administration would help, so far there has been silence that can only encourage the dissidents. The penalties for failure are severe in the extreme, lots of references have been made to a return of the "bad old days", only a few realise that there wouldn't be any return to the "bad old days", were the Irish Peace Process to fail the days to come would be far, far worse than anything that you have ever seen at any time in the past. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Irish Peace Process From: Ireland Date: 14 Mar 09 - 04:52 AM "The vast majority of the people of Ireland are Republicans and Nationalists. " If that was so then we would have a vote on an All Ireland would we not? For myself I see that nat/rep have a duty to make it really clear to the various IRA groups they have not got support,but what bothers me is this inbuilt willingness to support anything IRA if SF declares an action not to their liking. How many people, post murders of the soldiers and policeman, declare the introduction of the SRR would make them join the dissidents if any of them were killed by "special forces", maybe not many here but in other forums such statements were made. When challenged these people cite crud from years ago and then lambast their opposite number for fearing the rise of the IRA's because they get succor from this support. I am sure the various IRA's thought hold on a minute are we dealing with schizophrenics one min they show support the next they want to lynch us. All that is based on the way SF sway support or not for dissidents.Pre-murders and post see totally different declarations this can only be resolved by nat\rep unionists\loyalists can only look on until SF made up their mind for outright condemnation. One thing for sure it was great to see the "enemies" stand together to oppose a common cause and doing so with an understanding of each others past and that neither want a return to violence. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Irish Peace Process From: Teribus Date: 13 Mar 09 - 10:47 PM 100 Up |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Irish Peace Process From: Teribus Date: 13 Mar 09 - 10:47 PM Good point Kevin, but I think you do actually know that I was referring to those mentioned in Den's post who had moved on from the armed struggle, my fault should have made that clearer. Oh by the bye - The majority of people in the North of Ireland are neither Republicans or Nationalists. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Irish Peace Process From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 13 Mar 09 - 09:23 PM " the majority of Republicans and Nationalists have caught up with the vast majority of people of Ireland" The vast majority of the people of Ireland are Republicans and Nationalists. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Irish Peace Process From: GUEST,lox Date: 13 Mar 09 - 08:16 PM "Now if the the majority of Republicans and Nationalists have decided to move on from the armed campaign. Then maybe they will co-operate in ending the careers of such as the RIRA and CIRA once and for all." This is is not at issue and is a little offensive as it implies some kind of responsibility on those who didn't do anything for those who did. What kind of cooperation do you mean? What can your average nationalist/republican do as distinct from any other member of society to cooperate in ending the careers of RIRA and CIRA. Teribus, I had noted an apparent new found fairness to your commentary. If this isn't deliberately inflammatory then would you mind providing some kind of reassurance to those of us who have no truck with terrorists that you aren't lumping us in with them on the basis of our political/cultural standpoint. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Irish Peace Process From: Teribus Date: 12 Mar 09 - 12:55 PM "the majority of Republicans and Nationalists have decided to move on from the armed campaign. The people believe in a democratic way forward. Do you have a list for that?" Very pleased to here that the majority of Republicans and Nationalists have caught up with the vast majority of people of Ireland who indicated their marked aversion to the armed campaign about ten years ago - There was an "ALL IRELAND" Referendum on it. Might not be a list but it's near enough and more than good enough for me. Now if the the majority of Republicans and Nationalists have decided to move on from the armed campaign. Then maybe they will co-operate in ending the careers of such as the RIRA and CIRA once and for all. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Irish Peace Process From: Den Date: 12 Mar 09 - 12:33 PM Sorry that should have read armed campaign. |
