BS: The Irish Peace Process

Subject: RE: BS: The Irish Peace Process
From: Stringsinger
Date: 28 Jan 09 - 03:01 PM

So Catholic and Protestant religious beliefs have now entered the category of politics?
No Catholic or Protestant religious beliefs have anything to do with the division?

I don't get it.

The fact is unless these religious constructs are taken off the table as a defining cultural identity, the "troubles" will continue. This stuff goes way back since the Elizabethan era and Henry the VIII.

Stsngr

Subject: RE: BS: The Irish Peace Process
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 27 Jan 09 - 09:52 PM

" But are YOU any different?? I hope to God that you are," Surely you've got it the wrong way round there.

The thing to hope is that in the end it'll turn out that the people in Palestine/Israel aren't that different from the people in Nrthern Ireland, and that they too can find their way to a settlement in which they also can live together without fighting.

Subject: RE: BS: The Irish Peace Process
From: bubblyrat
Date: 27 Jan 09 - 08:22 PM

I have spent much of my adult life wondering what the HELL the situation in Northern Ireland was /is all about in the first place !Yes, I agree that mistakes were made, Cromwell and all that, and yes, the people of Ireland have,indeed,suffered grievously at the hands of , OK, the English ( and the Romans, and others), but what makes a nation, any nation,turn on ITSELF ??How, in the name of GOD,can any conflict in Ireland be resolved by killing,with bombs,women and children in English shopping malls ? By blowing up unarmed military musicians and their horses ??By putting bombs in English bars,designed to indiscriminately MURDER teenage girls and boys ?? To put a bomb under the car of, and kill, a man, an English MP and war-hero, (Airey Neave) who so bravely had escaped from Colditz Castle in WW2 Nazi Germany, surely the most oppressive and vile regime of recent times ??You even murdered Lord Mountbatten,without whose help you would all be speaking German today !!
      And for what ?? Religion ?? King Billy?? The Bold Fenian Men ??The Orange ??The Green ?? Hatred?? Bloodlust?? And I 'll bet some of you, even now,condemn the situation in Palestine / Israel !! But are YOU any different?? I hope to God that you are, at last ,or there's no hope.

Subject: RE: BS: The Irish Peace Process
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 26 Jan 09 - 08:00 PM

That to me says it all.

But what does it say? Surely it underlines the very point Nick was making, that this hasn't been primarily about religious beliefs, but about where people's political and national loyalties lie.

Sometimes these kind of divisions do largely coincide with religious differences, as in Ireland and in the former Yugoslavia, but in other places this doesn't enter into it - as in Spain and the Basque country, or in Ruanda or Darfur. The presence (or absence) of religious differences doesn't seem to make such conflicts either more bloody or less bloody.

Subject: RE: BS: The Irish Peace Process
From: Stringsinger
Date: 26 Jan 09 - 02:35 PM

Nickhere, I must respectfully disagree and use a joke as a parable.

A prisoner was taken by the IRA. After being interrogated he exclaimed, "I'm an atheist!"
The IRA interrogator asked without missing a beat,
"Yes but are you a Catholic or Protestant atheist?"

That to me says it all.

I take your point about inequality and injustice. But this is so often fueled by religious beliefs. Religion is the banner that mobilizes "ignorant armies that clash by night".

Frank

Subject: RE: BS: The Irish Peace Process
From: An Buachaill Caol Dubh
Date: 26 Jan 09 - 05:55 AM

Although it's some forty years since it was written, one of the best short analyses of the situation in the North of Ireland in the previous century is in Bernadette Devlin's "The Price of my Soul" (it was Nickhere's penultimate paragraph that reminded me of it). For what it's worth, in one village in Donegal - one of the Counties of Ulster, though in the Republic - there are Orange parades on or around the Twelfth of July, and the whole community turns out either to participate or applaud; the place is Rosapenna. Mind you, back in the 1960s, Taoiseach Jack Lynch said that in a United Ireland all traditions would be respected equally; call these what you will, Nationalist, Loyalist, Republican, Unionist, Orange, Green, Catholic, Protestant, Free Stater, Fenian, Peep o'Day, Whiteboys (we're getting really historical now). On a lighter note, there's an RTE programme called "Failte Isteach", and a couple of years ago the presenter pointed out that, throughout Europe, all borders are gone; he then played a recording of Dominic Behan's "Thank God we're surrounded by Water". As his brother Brendan once misquoted it,

"The Sea, the Sea, a gradh geal mo chroidhe,
Long may you roll between England and me;
God help the poor Scotchmen - they'll never be free,
But we're entirely surrounded by water."

Subject: RE: BS: The Irish Peace Process
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 25 Jan 09 - 07:28 PM

Back before Christmas I see Sleepy Rosie said "If the day comes where democratically the majority in Ulster desire to re-unite with the South, there will no-doubt still be ruptions. But I suspect it will eventually come and hopefully with time..."

That day is probably already here and has been for years - but of course Northern Ireland is only part of Ulster, and Ulster as such doesn't have a say in this.

In time I am sure that the two parts of Ireland will be linked in some kind of federal or confederal arrangement, within the European Union, alongside the rest of the British Isles. Whether there'll still be any kind of United Kingdom in another generation or so is another matter. But I hope that the days of fighting about these kind of things is over and done with.

Subject: RE: BS: The Irish Peace Process
From: Nickhere
Date: 25 Jan 09 - 06:14 PM

Stringsinger, good post. But I think that to see the Troubles (as we call them here) in Northern Ireland as springing from religious differences is a serious mistake. But i can understand why people might think that.

Religion was simply a badge of convenience for identifying the 'ethnicity' and politics of the 'wearer'. Being a catholic meant you were probably nationalist and / or republican, being a prod probably meant the opposite. The same thing applied to names: being called Liam wouldn't go down well in loyalist pubs and might get the owner a hiding. Being called Billy or Sammy wouldn't go down well in Republican circles. And yet the notorious leader of the loyalist Shankill Butchers (so-called as they literally butchered their mainly catholic victims) was called Lenny Murphy. Murphy would generally be considered a "Fenian' name in the North (fenian = pro united Ireland / independence from UK). Some analysts claim Murphy - a prod loyalist - had a complex about his name which drove some of his viciousness.

The conflict in the north was based on apartheid and discrimination -subtle or non-subtle. It came from police harassment of catholics on the assumption that politically they were anti-union. Often such sectarian assumptions became a self-fulfilling prophecy. Catholics, roughed up by the police on suspicion of being anti-union, no doubt subsequently felt their sympathies lean towards the republican cause whereas they may have been apolitical before.

Catholics generally didn't join the police in the north because - they were not welcome; they would have been subject to bullying by their colleagues; they would have been shunned by their own community. I could list dozens of ways catholics were discriminated against as prods wished to build a monolithic prod state. But once again, religion was simply a denoter of allegiance, politics, social and economic status.

None of the killings took place, unlike the 16th cent - because people had studied their bibles carefully and mowed each other down over doctrinal differences.

The idea that religion was behind it was driven in part by UK officialdom and the tabloids as it was a convenient shorthand but mainly because it deflected attention from the real issues - inequality and injustice, UK political expediency and so on. It absolved the UK leadership from any responsibility and allowed them to cast themselves as the 'honest brokers' trying to keep the peace rather than as the opportunistic politicians they were manipulating both sides to their advantage, and indeed, being a cause of the problem.

That might be just another reason why the peace process has to work. It may yet prove to be a model for other regions of the world if it is successful. In those areas, it is my firm belief that once social justice issues are dealt with, the religious veneer of many of these conflicts will evaporate like morning dew (I doth surprise myself, waxing poetical!!)

Subject: RE: BS: The Irish Peace Process
From: bubblyrat
Date: 25 Jan 09 - 12:03 PM

My hope is that Obama will address the problems assailing his own nation,and try to stop getting involved in any other country's business, thankyou very much !!

Subject: RE: BS: The Irish Peace Process
From: Stringsinger
Date: 24 Jan 09 - 01:55 PM

Both sides are culpable. The "proddies" and the Catholics have been going at this for years.
Saying that it's the fault of one side only is complete and utter denial.

Divesting Ireland from the UK may be a band-aid on a serious wound. The real issue is
religious ideological differences which must be addressed and mollified. The model is currently at work in the Mid-east for these differences.

The problem with a Marxist solution is that it offers an extrinsic or outside solution to
an internal problem. It doesn't deal with the religious ideological differences. Marxism as applied is a "religious" approach to the problem in itself whether a god is mentioned or not.
Marx was principally an economist and not necessarily the final word on how a government should be run. Stalin certainly abused Marx and his theories for totalitarian purposes.

I believe as in the Mid-East, outside arbitration by a credible world body accepted by the world community is the only answer.

Apparently George Mitchell has had some influence in the "peace process". My hope is that Obama will work toward goals of harmony in these conflict-ridden parts of the world. Before that, though, Iraq and Afghanistan problems need to be resolved.

Subject: RE: BS: The Irish Peace Process
From: goatfell
Date: 24 Jan 09 - 06:50 AM

aye tell that to the republican,loylist supprters on the mudcat cafe because I've being telling them that and they tell me that I'm speaking rubbish.

Subject: RE: BS: The Irish Peace Process
From: Nickhere
Date: 23 Jan 09 - 01:59 PM

What exists at present in the North is far better than what went before. If we can all maintain it another generation or so, the old resentments might die out. I used to be totally in favour of a 32 county republic, but these days I think the political form of society is less important than the justice and equality of that society. I still favour a republic to a monarchy, but a good monarchy would be better than a rotten republic, especially if the democratic process has become a sham.

There is still an outstanding issue of a handful of dissident republicans and loyalists who haven't disarmed, this needs to be sorted out asap, but as long as the guns are silent in the meantime, that's something worth celebrating. I think it proves the 'boring' political way is ultimately the only long-term way.

Subject: RE: BS: The Irish Peace Process
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 23 Jan 09 - 01:40 PM

The Consultative Group On The Past is to recommend that the government pays £12000 compensation to the families of every victim of the troubles.
They say that all should be treated equally be they child, passer by, soldier or paramilitary.
It would mean for instance that the UVF men killed by the bomb they were planting, will be treated the same as the innocent members of the Miami Show Band that they killed.
Nationalist politicians are generally in favour, Unionists against.

It does not seem right to me, but I am an outsider.

Subject: RE: BS: The Irish Peace Process
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 09 Jan 09 - 02:31 AM

Loyalist weapons are still a big issue. and this week there has been disagreement between police and Shaun Woodward.

Loyalist paramilitaries should not be given another year to decommission their weapons, the Police Federation has said.

Secretary of State Shaun Woodward has said he wanted to extend the NI Arms Decommissioning Act to 2010.

The Federation said it wanted MPs and Peers to resist the request and that loyalist paramilitaries had no intention of giving up their weapons.
.....................................................................
Yesterday, a post of mine and two from another member were deleted.
They were not personal attacks.
PM for a copy of my post.

Subject: RE: BS: The Irish Peace Process
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 08 Jan 09 - 03:09 AM

Mick,
Do we "disagree mightily" ?

1. We both long for the North to leave the UK and unite with the Republic.
2. We both hate violence.
3. We both welcome the political progress already achieved.

Our difference as I see it is

1. I do not think such a radical change in administration should be imposed upon
the people of the North until a majority of them, 51%, actually want it.
2. I do not believe that a campaign of violence could hasten that day.
3. I believe that the violence set the clock back on progress by decades.

Subject: RE: BS: The Irish Peace Process
From: Big Mick
Date: 07 Jan 09 - 10:57 AM

To the "GUEST" who continues to post using several names. This is not allowed. If you want to discuss the Irish Peace Process, do so using a consistent name/identity. Also, you may feel free to vigorously debate your positions. You may not use personal attack to do so. Keith (whom I disagree with mightily on these issues) posted a quote from the head of MI5 (whose activities in the North of Ireland I detest) with regard to the Peace Process. Your response was to point out that Keith had been chastised by my Co- Forum Moderator for using several identities. Aside from the fact that this has nothing to do with the debate, you are guilty of the same thing. So now you are being chastised. This is not allowed, "and you damn well know it".

Get on with a decent discussion, a passionate discussion. There is plenty to refute in the assertions of the apologists for Great Britain's policies in the North of Ireland, just as I am sure they feel there is on the Republican side. But if the thread continues to devolve into nothing but personal attacks, it will be closed.

Mick Lane
Forum Moderator

NO MORE COMMENTS ABOUT THE CONTRIBUTORS TO THE THREAD WILL BE ALLOWED. PLEASE CONFINE YOUR COMMENTS TO THE TOPIC OF THE THREAD. LAST WARNING BEFORE THE THREAD IS CLOSED. Muderator

Subject: RE: BS: The Irish Peace Process
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 Jan 09 - 09:14 AM

Jonathan Evans , head of MI5, has spoken about the current situation.
He said "There has been no decrease in terrorist activities despite the IRA ceasefire and the restoration of devolved government"
"...the last nine months there has been a real upswing in terrorist planning and attempted attacks by dissident Republican groups."
"There has been a determined series of attempts to kill a police officer in Northern Ireland."

Subject: RE: BS: The Irish Peace Process
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 12 Dec 08 - 12:41 PM

Link fo GAA hall story.

http://www.sinnfeinassembly.com/gd/press-centre/entry/3964.

Subject: RE: BS: The Irish Peace Process
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 12 Dec 08 - 12:18 PM

I am pleased to hear, through a Guest with a very silly name, that GAA halls also do not need protecting these days.

Subject: RE: BS: The Irish Peace Process
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 12 Dec 08 - 09:41 AM

A large Orange hall in Belfast no longer needs protection from attack.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/northern_ireland/7776252.stm

Subject: RE: BS: The Irish Peace Process
From: Stu
Date: 12 Dec 08 - 07:09 AM

"So it's just another unfortunate coincidence?"

. . .and your point is? Not all totalitarian regimes are Marxist and in fact any state that is totalitarian is, by definition not Marxist.

No one knows whether a Marxist (or for that matter a Communist) state would work, because one practising the teachings of Marx and Engels without deviation and a large degree of oppression has never existed.

Subject: RE: BS: The Irish Peace Process
From: Goose Gander
Date: 11 Dec 08 - 05:06 PM

"You're confusing Marxism with totalitarian regimes; they might say they're Marxist but they're not as Marxism isn't inherently oppressive."

So it's just another unfortunate coincidence? Oh my, so many unfortunate coincidences . . . .

Subject: RE: BS: The Irish Peace Process
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 11 Dec 08 - 04:20 PM

May i raise a voice in protest at the removal of Elinor's post? I had a fan. I had always wanted a fan. And now my hopes are dashed.

Subject: RE: BS: The Irish Peace Process
From: Stu
Date: 11 Dec 08 - 10:25 AM

You're confusing Marxism with totalitarian regimes; they might say they're Marxist but they're not as Marxism isn't inherently oppressive. Have you tried Wikipedia?

Subject: RE: BS: The Irish Peace Process
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 11 Dec 08 - 10:14 AM

Comrac said that he felt Eirigi to be "the only voice of Republicanism in Ireland today."
He said they were "democratic", but being a Marxist organisation their ideas of democracy differ from most of ours.
I read on their web site, "éirígí believes that electoral and parliamentary politics alone cannot deliver the type of change required in Irish society. "
So people can not be trusted to vote for what is good for them?

Marxism survives in North Korea and Zimbabwe. Perhaps in Ireland it would be more successful than in all the previous countries that have tried it, or is that a triumph of hope over experience?

Subject: RE: BS: The Irish Peace Process
From: goatfell
Date: 11 Dec 08 - 09:15 AM

because most of the ones no all but some support the republican terrorists, these 'mudcatters' from Ireland, they say that they don't but why go on about the republicna terrorists/loyalist terrorists if they don't, I just can't stand form of terrorism not matter what, because these 'people'just make me mad, but then I am.

Subject: RE: BS: The Irish Peace Process
From: goatfell
Date: 11 Dec 08 - 09:11 AM

Or don't support the Republican view/ loyalist view either.

free speech and all that

Subject: RE: BS: The Irish Peace Process
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 11 Dec 08 - 07:49 AM

First post members are excluded too.
Just ignore them.

Subject: RE: BS: The Irish Peace Process
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 11 Dec 08 - 07:44 AM

Good to see the "hard hitters" from Ireland are ignoring this thread.

Why is that Elinor? Like I said, I started the original thread in the hope that people from Ireland would give us their take on the peace process and what is realy happening there. I would dearly welcome input from anyone there - hard hitters or otherwise!

Cheers

DeG

Subject: RE: BS: The Irish Peace Process
From: Paul Burke
Date: 11 Dec 08 - 03:32 AM

We'll know the peace process has truly taken when they sell kids little orange plastic bowlers with shamrocks on them on the 12th of July, and when the Lambeg drums start coming into the sessions... no, wish I hadn't said that.

Subject: RE: BS: The Irish Peace Process
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 10 Dec 08 - 11:38 AM

I don't think we will get loads of '10th generation etc.', Al. It didn't happen on the other thread. The lads in New York and Chicago don't seem too interested anymore. Not sure why. They could, of course, still have a go at uniting Ireland but unless someone convinces the administration in Dublin to take on the six counties, with all their problems, I don't think that will happen. Maybe the bhoyos could raise funds for an organisation to terrorise the citizens of Eire until they take Ulster back:-)

Like I said in the other thread - where do we go from here? The peace process has started. Political violence seems to have stopped. But no-one seems to have a coherent guide as to how to get it any further. I was hoping that our contributors from the north of Ireland would be able to enlighten us as to how they feel and what the mood in the province is but we have had no real answer as yet.

And Joe - Thanks again. This time for making this thread members only and, hopefuly, stopping the trolling anmd sniping that went on elsewhere.

Cheers

DeG

Subject: RE: BS: The Irish Peace Process
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 10 Dec 08 - 08:12 AM

Anti peace process loyalist Michael Stone was locked up again this week.
Previously given 600years imprisonment, he had been released under Good Friday agreement.
He once appeared on TV with Desmond Tutu to face the family of one of his victims.
That encounter is descrbed here.
http://www.religion-online.org/showarticle.asp?title=3412

Subject: RE: BS: The Irish Peace Process
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 10 Dec 08 - 04:10 AM

The Peace Process will not be concuded any time soon Andy.
The thread can be revisited like its predecessor.
If you want to contribute, please consider membership.
You would clearly prefer that the peace process were not discussed here.
You will not get your way this time.

Subject: RE: BS: The Irish Peace Process
From: goatfell
Date: 09 Dec 08 - 11:28 AM

I would like to see peace in Northern Ireland, and at lest the have taken the right small steps, well some of them anyway, not all.

Subject: RE: BS: The Irish Peace Process
From: Lox
Date: 09 Dec 08 - 09:42 AM

Or should I say - good things come to those who persevere ...

Subject: RE: BS: The Irish Peace Process
From: Lox
Date: 09 Dec 08 - 09:41 AM

Hey,

I've been looking forward to saying this in a discussion of this nature ...

... A black man is president of the United States!!

Remember when that was synonymous with "the moon turnign blue" or "ian Paisley and Martin McGuinness shaking hands"

I'm waiting for the moon to turn blue.

But in the meantime, change happens slowly all around us all the time, and one day all those litle pieces stack up to make enough difference for something unheard of to happen.

The glass isn't completely full yet ... but its just a little more than half full at last.

Lets not smash it in our impatience to drink it eh ...

... Good things come to those who wait ... (Yes - mines a guinness thanks)

Subject: RE: BS: The Irish Peace Process
From: goatfell
Date: 09 Dec 08 - 09:17 AM

I forgot the mention that I'm a member of a organison that helps to promtoe the history.cultre and the music of Ulster and Scotland, where we don't really care if you protestant or catholic and if there is any sectrarians then we kick them out.

I just can't stand loylist/republican orgabsitons at all.

or their supporters.

I can accept people fro what they are, I hate any stupid bigoted opinion.

but I do believe in free speech and thought, you don't need to agree with it but they have the right to do what they want.

Subject: RE: BS: The Irish Peace Process
From: goatfell
Date: 09 Dec 08 - 09:02 AM

have you been to Northern Ireland where there are lots of places the fly the the british flag or the irish tricolour, and if this is not intimating(spelling) I don't what is.

there is place in Northern Ireland called FREE DERRY where for a time anyone who was British/prostestant was not welcome and it is still there.

Flying the Red hand/British flag or Irish tricolour is trying to tell the other side that they are not welcome, and then they talk about peace, there will never be any peace until both sides sit down and decied what to do about the genartions to come, but they haven't.

it's illegl to fly any flags that is provoking to the other side.

it might be working is somer place but not all, but as you say it is progress small I agree. But the is still have people in Northern Ireland that support the terrorist groups on both sides so is that progress, keeping alive the old divisions I don't.

there are areas of towns and cities in Northern Ireland where it is still protesant/Catholic and anyone from the other side is treated with sussption.
so is that progress?

Subject: RE: BS: The Irish Peace Process
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 09 Dec 08 - 07:49 AM

Unfair Goatfell. Last week a Queen's University report found that peole in the North are now less inclined to see themselves as being divided on sectarian lines.
The degree is small, but it is progress.

Subject: RE: BS: The Irish Peace Process
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 09 Dec 08 - 06:53 AM

Precis of the next three hundred posts:-

Keith and assorted alter egos: the republicans are up to no good
Teribus: I agree
Everyone else: the unionists aren't up to any good either!
10th generation Irish Yank: Erin Go Bragh! Need any loose change for gunpowder...?

Subject: RE: BS: The Irish Peace Process
From: Sleepy Rosie
Date: 09 Dec 08 - 06:28 AM

Lol! I don't know where the notion that everyone else is living peacefully comes from. Because 'stopping this nonsense' is pretty much what 'everyone else' needs to be doing too isn't it? I must admit to avoiding world news, pretty much because there's always some nonsense going on everywhere you look. And most of the nonsense going on, has been going on for years and years.

I mean, if people aren't causing mass havock by invading other countries, then people are experiencing mass disruption by getting invaded. And if people aren't either causing havock by invading other people, or in their turn getting invaded, then they're living with the on-going disturbances of having been invaded... So much nonsense going on with everyone, quite hard to see who's not being silly in the world, or when it's ever been sensible!

Seriously, possibly the most impartial option for Ireland, is to have an Ireland that is cleanly separate from the UK. It makes sense now that the UK is gradually (and I suspect inevitably) being dismantled. Ireland would be comprised of two distinct but closely co-operating countries of Ulster and Eire. If the day comes where democratically the majority in Ulster desire to re-unite with the South, there will no-doubt still be ruptions. But I suspect it will eventually come and hopefully with time, the various factions will co-operate in the process.

Subject: RE: BS: The Irish Peace Process
From: goatfell
Date: 09 Dec 08 - 04:59 AM

I don't think that you'll get real peace in Northern Ireland, because of some of the people that live there, because when you drive through the towns they either flying the british flag or the Irish tricolour, and you also have people who this site who support the loyist/republican terrorists with their comments, and no matter you say they will say that you're wrong because they don't want to hear the truth.

until they stop this nonsense and start living like everyone else instead of thrying to say that their side is better than yours you will never find peace.

Subject: RE: BS: The Irish Peace Process
From: Skivee
Date: 08 Dec 08 - 03:51 PM

Are things progressing well? I haven't heard much about the state of affairs lately. I hope that this means that the various parties are finding common ground.

Subject: BS: The Irish Peace Process
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 08 Dec 08 - 11:34 AM

David El Gnomo started this thread back in May 07.
thread.cfm?threadid=101488&messages=124

We returned to it occasionally to discuss the progress.
It was sabotaged by a swarm of "Guests", possibly one single person, who did not support the peace process and did not want it discussed here.
He/they succeeded in getting the thread closed, achieving that aim.

I offer this as an alternative, and request that it be members only.

---

This thread is open to established members only. Guest posts and posts from new members will not be accepted.
-Joe Offer-