BS: The Irish Peace Process

Subject: RE: BS: The Irish Peace Process
From: Den
Date: 12 Mar 09 - 12:30 PM

Teribus, the majority of Republicans and Nationalists have decided to move on from the arms campaign. The people believe in a democratic way forward. Do you have a list for that?

Subject: RE: BS: The Irish Peace Process
From: Teribus
Date: 12 Mar 09 - 12:05 PM

It was suggested earlier that these attacks were somehow triggered by the revelation that SRR surveillance units were being deployed to the province. This might explain why they were requested:

Dissident Republican Activity

1.        11th February 2008 – Derry - Man shot dead


2.        12th February 2008 – Doneyloop – Man shot dead

3.        12th May 2008 – Sparmount – Police Officer injured when a booby trap device placed under his car explodes.

4.        16th August, 2008 – Lisnaskea – Rocket propelled grenade which fails to explode fired at three police officers.

5.        26th August 2008 – Craigavon – Riots, shootings and bomb attacks after a bomb warning.

6.        31st January 2009 – Castlewellan – Police render safe and prevent the explosion of a 300lb Car Bomb.

7.        25th February 2009 – Newtownabbey – Pipe bomb thrown at car

8.        7th march 2009 – Massereene Base – RIRA murder 2 off duty soldiers and seriously wound four others including two civilians.

9.        9th March 2009 – Craigavon – CIRA murder one Police Officer.


In the face of this, just exactly what did anybody think the response of the PSNI should have been.

The request to increase surveillance and intelligence gathering would seem only too appropriate and maybe should have been requested after incident 5, detailed above.

Most disturbing is the incident in Castlewellan, apparently latest is that PSNI are now searching for a similar RIRA Bomb that sources say has been smuggled into Northern Ireland - I sincerely hope that they find it and render it safe before it is detonated.

Subject: RE: BS: The Irish Peace Process
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 12 Mar 09 - 10:11 AM

I'd like to repeat - there is nothing we can do now to save our ancestors.

We have to think about our children.

Do you want them to live in a war zone?


Noone has the right to tarnish the beauty of this place

And I think these people have infinitely better "ground level knowledge or experience of Ireland" than you, both because it is they who will suffer if violence returns, but mainly because for them it isn't an abstract romantic fantasy but something real that they fear.

Any defence of RIRA is psychotic at best and criminal at worst.

Subject: RE: BS: The Irish Peace Process
From: Den
Date: 12 Mar 09 - 08:40 AM

I think that it is important for all sides of the debate to "stick to the rules" and quit delving into the past to support arguements. We know from experience that, that particular ploy gets us nowhere. It just moves us around in circles of recrimination. It has taken a long hard road to get many of us to where we now stand. It doesn't help to rake up old coals. Please stay on topic in the here and now or I for one will withdraw from this debate and I have a good deal to offer.

Subject: RE: BS: The Irish Peace Process
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 12 Mar 09 - 04:22 AM

I take back "fighting"
There was no fighting this week.
Just the cynical execution of 2 unarmed lads, and a middle aged dad.

Subject: RE: BS: The Irish Peace Process
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 12 Mar 09 - 03:07 AM

Observer, it is not just "people with no ground level knowledge or experience of Ireland. " who have turned their back on you.
Observe the demonstrations and the outpouring of public horror.

PIRA only had a minority support from the minority Nationalist population.
Now, you only have a tiny minority of them left.

You are in denial.

Mudcat merely reflects that.
Den has said that no "right thinking people" support you.
Ard Mhacha has called RIRA "traitorous scum".

Is it really true that Mudcatters are posting in support on other forums?
Only in your crazed dreams I think.

The people you claim to be fighting for just want you to stop.

Subject: RE: BS: The Irish Peace Process
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 11 Mar 09 - 07:41 PM

"This new development has saddened me to no end." I take it this doesn't refer to the killings, but to the decision of a mudelf in respect of some post. First things first, obviously...
....................

I think there are some significant differences between the Peace People demonstrations back in the 70s and these latest which Keith mentioned. The political and social context is very different, and so, it appears, is the breadth of support. They were trying to stop a war that was raging, with atrocities on both sides stoking the conflict. This time it's a matter of trying to prevent an attempt to get a fresh war started by actions intended to provoke counter-atrocities.

Subject: RE: BS: The Irish Peace Process
From: GUEST,Observer
Date: 11 Mar 09 - 07:03 PM

There is much could be said in defence of the republican cause on this thread but there would be no point as the post would probably vanish by the hand of someone republican members could once have counted on as a friend. This new development has saddened me to no end. I read it as a clear expression of what side of the bed they lie on regarding current North of Ireland politics.

I admire the stand being taken by the pro republican members of the forum in not becoming involved in what has clearly become a one sided debate among people with no ground level knowledge or experience of Ireland.

I am pleased to see two members posting on another forum over the past few days.

Enjoy your debate folks, keep it civil !

Subject: RE: BS: The Irish Peace Process
From: Teribus
Date: 11 Mar 09 - 05:19 PM

Absolutely Kevin - "to understand what happens today we need to have some understanding of what happened before".

As for, "the stories about what hapened before" such as Protestant militants killing at least 3,000 people we can damn well do without, because those stories help to perpetuate grievances and they are totally false.

Subject: RE: BS: The Irish Peace Process
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 11 Mar 09 - 04:34 PM

Virginia, back in the 70s there were comparable or bigger protests against the activities of PIRA.
PIRA igored it all and another quarter of a century of violence and death ensued.

Subject: RE: BS: The Irish Peace Process
From: VirginiaTam
Date: 11 Mar 09 - 04:19 PM

The silent demonstrations held today (I heard a smidge about on the BEEB Radio 4) makes me feel quite hopeful. BBC report from Northern Ireland

Subject: RE: BS: The Irish Peace Process
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 11 Mar 09 - 03:28 PM

Raking over the past, whether it's the 1640s or the 1970s, isn't really too helpful.

True enough, to understand what happens today we need to have some understanding of what happened before, and of the stories about what hapened before - which aren't always exactly the same thing.

But too often, rather than being about exploring the roots of what is happening today, the past is used as a way of allowing us to turn away from actually thinking about what's happening today.

Subject: RE: BS: The Irish Peace Process
From: Teribus
Date: 11 Mar 09 - 01:04 PM

most troubling the tripartite commission found that the british security service provided dossiers on a suspected five thousand plus terrorists to the sas then the sas provoded the arms and dossiers to the protestant militants(who in their day jobs were usually members of the ulster constabulary or the royal irish regiment--the only regiment in the britsich army that is recruited and stationed locally and that works part time). so the militants successfuly killed at leat three thousand of these targets before the projexct managers realized that the targets were not ira. most were union leader, day organizers, and comunity activists." – olliamh

Let's see 5,000 dossiers; Protestant militants killed at least 3,000 of them before realizing that they were not IRA but Trade Union Leaders, Day Organizers (??), and Community Activists (??)

Unfortunately this does not accord with the statistics and figures from the Sutton Survey which is considered to be the most comprehensive index of deaths resulting from the conflict in Northern Ireland from 14 July 1969 and 31 December 2001. The Sutton Survey details approximately 3500 deaths and 36,000 injured during the troubles. Draft figures per year have also been tabulated from 2002 to 2009 and they total 58, those are not included I the figures given below.

CAIN Web Service
Summary of Organisation responsible for the death:

Organisation:
1.        Republican Paramilitary        2057
2.        Loyalist Paramilitary                1019
3.        British Security                363
4.        Not Known                        82
5.        Irish Security                        5
•        TOTAL                        3526

If indeed this matter is to be discussed, then let us discuss what is fact and not fantasy.

Subject: RE: BS: The Irish Peace Process
From: Jeri
Date: 11 Mar 09 - 12:02 PM

Also, read Joe's comment in the first post:
'This thread is open to established members only. Guest posts and posts from new members will not be accepted.
-Joe Offer-'
Jeri, Another Forum Moderator

Subject: RE: BS: The Irish Peace Process
From: Big Mick
Date: 11 Mar 09 - 11:23 AM

The rules, as stated many times, are that no one can use multiple personalities. You must post under a consistent name, ***Al***, even if you choose not to be a member.

As to the one sided contention, you will note that the post by olliamh is still in place.

Mick

Subject: RE: BS: The Irish Peace Process
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 11 Mar 09 - 10:13 AM

ollaimh, I would love to challenge all the points in your post, but let us please keep this thread for discussing the current and future peace process.
There are many, many existing threads on the troubles that you could reopen, or please start a new one.
keith.

Subject: RE: BS: The Irish Peace Process
From: Big Mick
Date: 11 Mar 09 - 10:06 AM

In response to a deleted post, this thread will not be shut down. But it is being monitored closely. Stick to a discussion of the issues. Any type of threat or personal attack will be deleted as will any posts that reference same.

It is a touchy issue that we have been discussing here almost since the beginning. As history plays out this latest chapter, the running debate is interesting and relevant. Passions run high, and language can be impassioned. But there will be no attacks or implied threats. Anyone who threatens, or implies a threat could face expulsion.

Mick Lane
-Forum Moderator-

Subject: RE: BS: The Irish Peace Process
From: ollaimh
Date: 10 Mar 09 - 11:01 PM

wowie i'm on!

i think it's important for the british government to come clean about a lot of abuse going back at least to the civil rights movement.

back in the eighties the tripartite report on northen ireland found that there had never been a democratically elected government in ni as the catholic communities were not fully enumerated before the troubles, and after the troubles the danage was used as an excuse not to enumerate the catholic neighbourhoods.

they found that tortute was in widespread use by the government.

they found that evedience of terrorist activity was routinely fabricated.in one c ase the same gun was attached to over thirty different affidavits claiming that an accused was the possessor of the gun. these affidavits and hearings were without counsel nor were the accused allowed to be present or see the evidence, under the anti terroorist legislation. sad to say the authorities got very heavy handed to say the least.

most troubling the tripartite commission found that the british security service provided dossiers on a suspected five thousand plus terrorists to the sas then the sas provoded the arms and dossiers to the protestant militants(who in their day jobs were usually members of the ulster constabulary or the royal irish regiment--the only regiment in the britsich army that is recruited and stationed locally and that works part time). so the militants successfuly killed at leat three thousand of these targets before the projexct managers realized that the targets were not ira. most were union leader, day organizers, and comunity activists.

all these issues were raised inparliament and not denied at the time.n in the british system they take lying to parliament seriously--pity american politicians don't.

in addition the bloody sun day massacre was totally one sided. the british governemnt has been a major motivator in the escalating violence and sectarianism. the only realy solution is for them to get out and arrange a united nations nato or european union force to police and govern under a transitional syatem untill an independant northern ireland can be established. tyhen if they democratically vote for union with anyone so be it, or is they prefer to remain independent ok for them.

the seriousness os assinating three thousand of your own citizens is gargantuan. even bloddy sunday and the followong coverup--recently admitted to--pales in comparison.

the tripartite report is no secert. the economist magazine ran an editorial after it was released advocating british withdrawal. in canada the globe and mail did much the same. both new papers published extensive sections of the report.

i agree it is not a religious struggle. it is a colonial war, just an old colonial war. but that knowledge alone doesn't do much. british withdrawal and international government is the only short term solution. the ira has acceoted the oeace orocess as they know that the pprotestant militants have alway been dependent on aid from the british army and that they have alway benifited from their dominance on governemnt jobs. under the peace process catholics will get half these jobs and one will no longer be able to rum protestant military organization from you dexkn in the police office or the civil service. but this is a sectarian advantage and in the long run may lead to equality but the short run requires a fair government and there hasn't been one in northern ireland since elizabeth the first.


ps and i'm a canadian protestant!!! although i am part highland scottish from cape breton origionally. i remember when i was young the ira had supporters in our folk get togethers, especially in boston.(scottish corner in boston referws to cape breton scotts --we spoke gaelic back then and settled near our irish cousins although we were split fifty between portestansts and catholics--some boston capers were pro ira some weren't but i used to hear these discussions from the day i arrived to the day i left)

Subject: RE: BS: The Irish Peace Process
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 10 Mar 09 - 02:15 AM

It used to be a favourite trick of the Provisionals.
Send in a plea for help, wait for the police to rush to assist, and then gun down the officers.
So easy. The victims deliver themselves into the ambush.

Subject: RE: BS: The Irish Peace Process
From: Ireland
Date: 09 Mar 09 - 07:26 PM

The whinge of special forces killing more than just terrorist would have more meaning to it if the IRA had not been the biggest killers of Catholics than all the different groups put together including the security forces.

I would have no compunction in using a sniper to take out a sniper and using SR regiment to take on the dissidents. Now if they started killing the people who were responsible for bringing them back in the first place they would give the game away.

And in real terms do getting rid off them does all sides a favour.

Why should we worry about one sides feelings and forget the others, do the unionist/protestants who want peace not deserve to be defended from these murderers. Or is SF only concerned with their community?

This is as much a test for SF as it is for the rest off us,will SF defend their protestant constituents/

Subject: RE: BS: The Irish Peace Process
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 09 Mar 09 - 07:04 PM

...if dissidents were killed by the special forces...

The thing is that "the special forces" in Northern Ireland are still liable to be seen as the people who in the past have not worried too much about restricting their killing to "dissidents".

That is why deploying them tends to be seen as provocative - and as playing into the hands of those who would like to fire up the war once again. Those whose intention, in Gerry Adams' words is "To bring British soldiers back onto the streets. They want to destroy the progress of recent times and to plunge Ireland back into conflict."

Subject: RE: BS: The Irish Peace Process
From: Ireland
Date: 09 Mar 09 - 12:11 AM

To be honest the decision by Orde to bring in the special forces was exploited by both SF and the SDLP but unfortunately others have to pay for politicians mistakes, in this case two soldiers and civvy pizza delivery men.

We have according to the other forums that deal with N.Ireland, people who think if dissidents were killed by the special forces nat/rep would take up arms.

Saying and doing is two different things but there is still enough of the old victim culture about to give enough succor to dissidents to encourage them that they have a mandate.

We for the sake of our children need decisive leadership, many nat/rep hate the dissidents and realise the only response to them will be the bringing back of troops. They know that would not be in any ones interest, although Orde rules out deploying troops, one thing for sure Patten has left us with not enough police to curtail any activities like Sat night.

Again everyone condemns and comes up with no solution especially SF and SDLP this is being recognised by the law abiding nat/rep,which in a funny way is a threat to SF.

When push has come to shove we see that SF is not automatically taking the Catholic vote, the 11+ initiative is showing that not all Catholics toe the republican party line. If it happens there then it will in other areas.

All I worry about is that the loyalists will not hold back for too long if the dissident murderers make a successful bombing and takes lives for some loyalist that will be the excuse to retaliate.

SF now need to get unionists on side and real words of condemnation will help to achieve that, not mealy mouthed statement 16 hrs or more after attacks,which does not fool anyone even their own supporters.

I take comfort from the known rep/nat on other mb's who express their sympathy for the murders and they mean it. We need SF to follow suit.

Subject: RE: BS: The Irish Peace Process
From: Joe_F
Date: 08 Mar 09 - 10:27 PM

"Counterproductive" -- but of course, that is just what the people who made that attack were trying to be. In an ethnic pest zone, the problem is seldom a lack of decent, sensible people who want to live & let live. Usually, they are a large majority. The problem is that because of sentimentality the crazies hold them hostage. Often, one provocation is enough to make them start all over again. Is that still true in Northern Ireland? That Sinn Fein says it isn't is good to hear, but we'll see.

Subject: RE: BS: The Irish Peace Process
From: Ireland
Date: 08 Mar 09 - 10:00 PM

It took them over 16 hrs to do so, I wonder why, and I wonder what they think about their comments regarding the bringing in of special forces and the message the comments gave to the dissident murderers.

Orde was right, now the question is will Adams and SF live up o their hype, they want to represent all the people, so what about the unionist?

You are either a democratic politicians or your not SF do not make the same mistakes of the past like the idiotic unionist politicians.

Peace is a real threat to some nat/rep,for the simple reason, we are now starting to get the true society we deserve if that continues what will make people want to change the status quo?

Subject: RE: BS: The Irish Peace Process
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 08 Mar 09 - 08:18 PM

Sinn Fein condemns attack on N. Irish army base:

"Irish nationalist party Sinn Fein on Sunday condemned the attack on a British army base in Northern Ireland, saying Republicans had a duty to oppose what it called a "wrong and counterproductive" act."

Subject: RE: BS: The Irish Peace Process
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 08 Mar 09 - 07:58 PM

I don't think we need to spend one more day remembering - discussing - or arguing about the troubles of a previous generation.

As long as we are doing that we are neglecting the needs of the current generation.

The lesson to learn from the mismanagement of history is to ensure we manage the times properly today.

We need to focus on today.

We can't do anything to help our ancestors, but we can do everything to save our descendants from the same fate.

They don't need bickering fighting and killing.

They need peace, stability and freedom to pursue their happiness.

Subject: RE: BS: The Irish Peace Process
From: Ireland
Date: 08 Mar 09 - 06:46 PM

Well said LoX,but we have to remember that protestants suffered the same hardships that their Catholic neighbours did and that the Civil Rights movement was made up off protestants too.

Why I mention this is to illustrate that at that time 1960-70 the men off violence was convincing the ordinary man and women with united Ireland aspirations that killing was the way to do it.

Sooner or later the Civil Rights Movement if it had been allowed to continue would have brought about change with out the armalite or bomb.

Of course we know that idiots on both sides on Bloody Sunday put an end to that and who paid, the ordinary people. I think it is time the IRA told the truth about that day, we know how the Para's let us down and their commanders above that and then the original inquiry.

I think the inquiry costs should have been given to the Bloody Sunday victims families along with a heartfelt apology instead off solicitors and barristers.

Now we have the ridicules proposal from Eames and Bradley to pay £12000 to the family of every one who was killed.

Subject: RE: BS: The Irish Peace Process
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 08 Mar 09 - 06:09 PM

The whole point of the IRA at the start of the 20th century and of the civil rights movement of the sixties and the IRA of the seventies was to attempt (rightly or wrongly) to affect change that would improve the lives of ordinary people.

The peace process, culminating in the uneasy handshake between McGuinesss and Paisley, has done more to achieve those goals than any bomb or bullet ever could.

There are some who may argue that those tactics were necessary in their time, and some who may argue that they were criminal, but that is not a discussion which should concern us now.

The point is still the wellbeing of ordinary people and a return to violence in modern day northern Ireland will not bring this, but will instead bring misery and death and in the long run poverty too as the economy begins to slide even deeper than any credit crunch could be expected to drive it.

Northern Ireland has so much potential to be a great and happy home for catholics and protestants, unionists and republicans, gays and straights, marmite lovers and marmite haters.

But they need a stable peaceful society in which to achieve such a goal.

If Pearce, Collins or any of Irelands great campaigners were around today, I believe they would observe that the opportunities and lifestyle available to the average catholic in Ireland today, north or south of the border, are as good as they ever could have hoped for.

It is the ordinary working family who matters and it is they who will suffer if the violence returns.

Subject: RE: BS: The Irish Peace Process
From: Ireland
Date: 08 Mar 09 - 05:40 PM

Maybe VT you should not talk about things you know little about, the problems in Ireland simply do not come from films that do not put both sides across.

Wrt US military who fought in WW2 do you really think John Wayne won the war? Oh come on, it is real life your talking about and we in N.Ireland do not need a recurrence of the murdering.

"Intellegence gathering is likely to be veiwed by any one with an ounce of common sense as provocative and threatening."

Please explain this,to whom would it pose a threat,the normal law abiding person or the murderer who has something to hide and nothing to offer except death.

We have our deputy first minister Mc Guinness, an ex IRA leader in London Derry during the time off Bloody Sunday, not being able to condemn the murders without referring to the past.

Guess what, we are trying to move forward,we can't do it bringing up the past as both sides have their scars and our DFM should realise that.

The Bloody Sunday massacre was a disgrace any decent minded person should see that but my generation cannot pay for that nor should the next.

If you want to truly understand Ireland read books from both sides you will find the truth between the two.

The murdering affected both sides and the establishment on both side did their fair share off discrimination when partition happened.

That was when the State of Ulster was established, from a unionist point off view N.Ireland was for the protestants and the Republic was for the Catholics. That nonsense was backed up by an ethnic cleansing on both sides, I am sure you only allow yourself to look at one sides perspective.

The members off the IRA during the 1920's took their revenge on a family that opposed them in the republic. They shot two young men in the groin in front off their family and watched them bleed to death in agony. Look up Coolacrease. You will find two differing accounts.

Th Catholic Church had its fair share off discrimination against protestants in the republic, they insisted that in mixed marriages the children should be brought up catholic, an attempt to rid them off protestants.

Ireland is not all black and white,and it's history is not to be learned from Wind In the Barley nor films such as The Hunger.

Subject: RE: BS: The Irish Peace Process
From: VirginiaTam
Date: 08 Mar 09 - 05:30 PM

Hi David

I wish I knew how to fix it. I am certain the majority on both sides are eager to have done with it. The fact remains that there is a small contingent that will continue to play eye for eye. So if the provocation were removed then they have no eyes to gouge out but their own.

Any nose is too big and hasn't been bloodied enough if it continues in activities designed to threaten others. The more one watches the more the one being watched will resent and react against it. That's just human nature. I agree the CIA is a monstrous entity and what is the use of intelligence gathering. We see it was not used to prevent 911 disaster.   I used to edit Federal Code prior to and following 911. Some of the regulations and laws that passed my desk were eye opening to say the least. The stuff of nightmares to put it truthfully.

"What did the president know and when did he know it" is so mild in comparison to Dubya Jr. and his Wag the Dog first term.

I will shut up now except to offer my apologies to those I may have offended.

Subject: RE: BS: The Irish Peace Process
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 08 Mar 09 - 04:46 PM

and just what is it you propose VT? That everyone just leaves the thugs of both sides to do their worse? There is no doubt that British imperialism and monumental mis-management did more to cause the trouble than anything else, but to keep out of it now would just be abdicating responsibility. There is a mess in the north of Ireland that no-one wants to take responsibility for. Westminster would be glad to see the back of it. Dublin doesn't want it.

All I can suggest is take heed of Irelands excelent line - "it is the idiot that criticises anyone who takes any legal action to preserve that peace and prevents the murder off innocents." and when you say "Intellegence gathering is likely to be veiwed by any one with an ounce of common sense as provocative and threatening." remeber that the CIA world fact book is just the tip of the biggest intellegence gathering excercise ever undertaken

Cheers

DeG

Subject: RE: BS: The Irish Peace Process
From: Ireland
Date: 08 Mar 09 - 04:44 PM

Apparently South Antrim Real Ira admits the attack, they must be a proud bunch to bring murder and maiming back to N.Ireland.

Do these scum not realise we have been through enough and we could do without the unaware giving succor to them through condemning Hugh Orde's decision of using special forces.

Now is the time we should unite and rid ourselves off such murderers on both sides. It is just a pity SF and SDLP did not think off what they were saying and the message it sent to the murderers when they condemned Ordes decision, without giving an alternative plan to deal with this scum.

Subject: RE: BS: The Irish Peace Process
From: VirginiaTam
Date: 08 Mar 09 - 04:25 PM

Don't get me wrong. I don't approve of what the terrorists did in this or any event. I just can see how they may feel provoked and how Great Britain might alleviate the provocation.

Intellegence gathering is likely to be veiwed by any one with an ounce of common sense as provocative and threatening.

It does stink and I am ashamed that the US government did nothing to criminalise terrorist fundraising for the IRA on American soil. I had no hand in it and would not support such activity ever. Hell, I did not even know about it until following threads on mudcat and wanting to learn more.

And ok so maybe I shouldn't use the term English when it is Great Britain on the whole and not just the English individually making things all edgy. I am still a learner on the English/British distinction game. And I know I am not alone on that score. I have English, Scottish and Irish friends/colleagues who still get in a flap about it on simple demographics surveys.

Maybe I have been influenced incorrectly by excellent films like The Wind That Shakes the Barley and In the Name of the Father and Bloody Sunday. They put me in a high dudgeon about how brutally the catholic Irish have been treated.
So with my tiny knowledge and big heart, I feel if Great Britain would just back out then maybe the terrorists wouldn't have anything to get whipped up about.

Subject: RE: BS: The Irish Peace Process
From: Leadfingers
Date: 08 Mar 09 - 02:47 PM

V T - I suggest that if that is the way you think about the Northern Ireland situation , you get the Hell back to America and stay there with the rest of the bloody fools who financed something like three thousand people killed in the thirty years of "The Troubles"

Subject: RE: BS: The Irish Peace Process
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 08 Mar 09 - 01:58 PM

One of the best posts I have ever seen on the situation, Ireland. I started the original wanting the views of people who know what is going on and have first hand experience of it. I do not know if you are there, I certainly hope so becauase if there were more with as much common sense I am sure the peace will be long lasting.

Thanks.

Dave

Subject: RE: BS: The Irish Peace Process
From: Ireland
Date: 08 Mar 09 - 01:00 PM

Any one got a solution to the problem of the dissidents.

Here is the lay of the land, at present N.Ireland is accepted to be part off the UK by all political parties until there is a consenting majority to change that politically.

Thankfully those who used the ballot box and Armalite to gain a united Ireland has realised that was not the right way to got about it.

Given that we are part off the UK it is not unusual for the British Army to be stationed here, especially in garrison towns.

At the beginning of this peace process Pattens recommendations wrt RUC was put in place, quite simply we do not now have the counter terrorism experts to neutralise the so called IRA dissidents.

Do the people who use words such as the English poking their nose in understand what they are on about,these so called English have a Scottish priminister, and orther MP from all over the UK, so in real terms it is United Kingdom/British people poking their nose in a British part off the world, for the time being.

We have loyalist terrorist groups still in possession of their weapons. Do people not stop to think? These cowardly murderers has justified the loyalist crowd holding on to their weapons.

What happens if the dissidents get a few strikes like the bomb that was diffused a few week ago,btw this was not the result of the English sticking their nose in, it would have killed and maimed more than the Omagh Bomb.

What happens is this,remember the loyalist groups, idiots among them will take it upon themselves to protect their community and strike back at the dissidents and off it goes again.

Who care's if Orde brings in the Gurkhas or whoever as long as the threat of dissidents is neutralised before other decide it is time they take action.

We have a peace in N.Ireland hard won from the hands off terrorists it is the idiot that criticises anyone who takes any legal action to preserve that peace and prevents the murder off innocents.

I wish the families of the murdered all the best and they have my heart felt sympathies I hope for a speedy recovery off the innocent civilians and soldiers a swift recovery.

Subject: RE: BS: The Irish Peace Process
From: Teribus
Date: 08 Mar 09 - 12:46 PM

"Army units are being deployed again in NI Clear provocation on part of English, AGAIN!" - Virginnia Tam

Provocation on the part of the English eh?? Bit difficult that VT especially seeing as there has been no such political entity as the English since 1707.

As far as I am aware those soldiers killed had nothing whatsoever to do with the SRR units that are being deployed to Northern Ireland in response to a worsening security situation that has been telegraphed over the past eighteen months. The SRR is not a combat force and are tasked with intelligence gathering, so thay are not there to "fight" anybody.

This attack would have to have been reconnoitred and planned which would mean that this attack was in preparation long before the announcement of any SRR deployment was made.

As yet no-one has claimed responsibility for it, and as both Martin McGuinness and Gerry Adams have both said this act of murder will not further the Republican cause one jot.

Subject: RE: BS: The Irish Peace Process
From: VirginiaTam
Date: 08 Mar 09 - 10:32 AM

Keith you are right on the mis-hearing policeman. Oddly enough when I looked it up on I made mental note of the fact that is was military personnel not policemen and promptly forgot to adjust my post.

Still putting in forces especially intelligence gathering as the BBC Radio report intimated, could only create the conditions that would start this mess up again.

Also, I don't understand why or how this event was planned "before" the deployment? Doesn't make sense to me.

Subject: RE: BS: The Irish Peace Process
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 08 Mar 09 - 09:46 AM

VT, you must have misheard.
The two killed and others badly wounded were military engineers not police.
The attack was well planned and must have been planned before the new deployment.
The deployment was explained as being required because of imminent threat of attack. That explanation now seems justified.
Also, there have been a number of unsuccessful bomb attacks on police PRIOR to the new deployment.
Whatever the causes of this set back to peace, it is hard to see that the recent deployment played any part.

Subject: RE: BS: The Irish Peace Process
From: VirginiaTam
Date: 08 Mar 09 - 09:30 AM

Army units are being deployed again in NI Clear provocation on part of English, AGAIN!

Just heard ( 1:00pm news today) on BEEB Radio 4 - that 2 policemen shot execution style in NI. 2 pizza delivery people also injured.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2009/mar/08/northern-ireland-soldiers-killed-antrim

Can't tell me that this event is not a direct result of the English poking big nose in where it is not wanted. So fekking messed up.

Subject: RE: BS: The Irish Peace Process
From: Leadfingers
Date: 08 Mar 09 - 06:55 AM

Sadly there seem to be a very few 'Hard Line' republicans who do NOT want any kind of peace - Probably because it would put an end to a lot of their crimianl activity which they can currently cloak with some kind of Repuclcanism !

Subject: RE: BS: The Irish Peace Process
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 08 Mar 09 - 04:58 AM

referring to yesterday's exection of off duty army engineers,the leader of the nationalist SDLP, Mark Durkan, condemned the "murderous" attacks.

"Those who committed it are steeped in the mindset and means of past violence," he added.

"They need to understand this is not an attack on British army but the Irish people who have voted for and value above all else peaceful politics and democratic accommodation."
The other parties have also condemned it.
Sinn Fein has ,so far, been silent.

Subject: RE: BS: The Irish Peace Process
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 06 Mar 09 - 05:00 PM

McGuinness criticises Ulster police chief for recalling covert army units:

Martin McGuinness said today (May 6th) his confidence in Sir Hugh Orde had been shaken by the Northern Ireland chief constable's decision to call in a military special forces unit.

The deputy first minister and key Sinn Féin negotiator said the presence of the undercover army regiment in Northern Ireland posed a "major threat".

Subject: RE: BS: The Irish Peace Process
From: Stringsinger
Date: 06 Mar 09 - 03:48 PM

Hi Mick. Wish I could buy that. Economic differences could be settled a lot easier than
tribal lines based on "faith".

It would be in the best economic interests of Ireland to solve this dispute but that doesn't seem to be governing the decision making processes of either side.

Tribalism is an age-old problem. It goes deeper than economic principles. It is usually buried in traditions. In the Mid-east, Semitic peoples are similar and yet choose to fight.
It's the same thing in North and South Ireland. The people look alike, have a similar gene pool (like those in the Mid-east) and yet they have to find something to disagree about to maintain their tribal identity. Religion is a good excuse. "Papists" "Proddies"....you know the drill.

Stringsinger

Subject: RE: BS: The Irish Peace Process
From: ard mhacha
Date: 06 Mar 09 - 06:03 AM

Bubblyrat, Ireland suffered at the hands of the Romans?, are you sure you are not confusing the many Italian soccer teams that hammered our local `stiffs`in various European encounters, my God now the poor oul Romans have been thrown into the fray.

Subject: RE: BS: The Irish Peace Process
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 06 Mar 09 - 03:09 AM

Army units are being deployed again in NI.
The reason (excuse?) given is to combat rising levels of activity from dissident Republican groups.
Concern has been expressed by SDLP that the deployment has not been done through democratic process.
Sinn Fein has been silent so far.

Subject: RE: BS: The Irish Peace Process
From: Nickhere
Date: 29 Jan 09 - 11:45 AM

Big Mick's correct on that score, bubblyrat. I think it was around 1930 (or perhaps that very year) when both Catholic and Protestant workers went on strike together over the conditions they were expected to work for under the fat cat bosses (mainly protestant). It was a short-lived strike, as the capitalists, alarmed at the unusual show of solidarity, were quick to forment sectarian division. The usual way to do this was to slightly favour one side (prod) with slightly better conditions and then tell them to 'watch their backs' of those scummy Papists (Catholic) will have the shirt off yer"

In that way they drove the communities apart by giving one lot reason to be fearful over their privilege' (scraps from the master's table) while giving the other lot reason to be envious and resentful. Not much has changed these days, I think, in or out of the North. It takes an alert mind to spot it and resist it.

There were historic divisions of course, the ancestors of today's unionists arrived as protestant and presbyterian colonists from Scotland and England to supplant the native catholic who were regarded as 'disloyal'. That happened from the time of Henry VIII onwards. This was an injustice of course, but it must be borne in mind that some of the Catholic native chieftans were not very just either and occasionally acted as little tin-pot autocrats. A major difference was that under the Gaelic legal system the chieftan was leader for life but, while he and his family had use of the lands while he was alive, his family could not inherit it. This did not suit the Anglo-Norman system of primogeniture where the first son inherited all, 'making legal bastards of the rest of the family' as Thomas Paine put it. This way suited the Normans as it ensured the feudal system of loyalty survived through the generations. On the other hand the Irish chieftans had no legal right under Gaelic law to surrender their lands to the English Crown as they were not theirs to dispose of in that manner. In any case, in the late 19th century the Irish were able to buy back most of the land they had been dispossessed of, under a series of land reform acts. In some cases, the payments were still being made to the English Crown in the 1960s.

For what it's worth, Ireland has the 'distinction' of being the first country to be colonised by another European power in the so-called Age of Discovery, that time in the 1500s when European countries began to send ships across the Atlantic and around the world etc., We went through the whole cycle of conquest, dispossession, genocide (yes, genocide) etc., to finally wind up in the 1990s and 21st century talking round the table. So, McGrath of Harlow has a good point, Israel and Palestine can learn from our example, they'll probably end up at the same point eventually anyway.

Subject: RE: BS: The Irish Peace Process
From: Big Mick
Date: 29 Jan 09 - 08:43 AM

bubblyrat, to my knowledge, the Irish never suffered at the hands of the Romans. More like the English and the Norsemen. In both of these cases they ultimately became absorbed into the Irish population.

Frank, the simple facts of the "troubles" is that at their root, they are economic. The "orange card" has been played in Ireland in a very similar way to how the "race card" is played here in the States. In the late 19th and early 20th century it had to do with the shipyards and railroads in the North. There was a time where the workers, Protestant and Catholic, found they had more in common as workers than differences. The industrialists couldn't have that. Out comes King Billy, parades, discrimination and patronage, ..... boom ..... profits preserved for the wealthy. A bit of an oversimplification, but makes the point. As in most great conflicts of the spirit, usually blamed on one thing or the other, this one is rooted in capitalism, greed, and money.

All the best,

Mick

Subject: RE: BS: The Irish Peace Process
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 29 Jan 09 - 05:31 AM

caballeros y senoritas!

Subject: RE: BS: The Irish Peace Process
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 29 Jan 09 - 03:25 AM

The two communities are always labelled Nationalist and Unionist now.
That also has its limitations, but they do need a one word descriptor. What would you call them?