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BS: Bush Dodges Shoe In Iraq....
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Subject: BS: Bush Dodges Shoe In Iraq.... From: Bobert Date: 15 Dec 08 - 07:28 AM Well, well, well... Who better to represent the US of A in a game of shoe dodging that the artfull dodger himself, George W... Yep, at the press conference in Baghdad a reporter fired both of his #10's a Bush... After the first one was launched Bush gave a little duck to his left and the shoe passed harmlessly over Bush's right shoulder... But then Bush got at all familiar "Missed me, msiised me" smirk on his face as if he was having fun when the second shoe was launched... It also missed the mark... Looked a little high and outside to be... Then Bush looked around the room to see if anyone else wanted to play but by then the security gurads were wrestling the pitcher to the mound and othjer than Bush's press secretary getting a small cut on he lip from the insuing wrestling match there were no other injuries... Fatc is starnger than fiction... B~ p.s. I think that reporter would be a nice addition to the Washington Nationals pitching rotation... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush Dodges Shoe In Iraq.... From: SINSULL Date: 15 Dec 08 - 08:55 AM Now crowds of Iraquis are demanding the release of the shoe thrower. Reports said he shouted in Arabic that this was for all the widows and children of Iraq. Has an American president ever been trweated with such contempt before? Does he finally realize what a failure he is? Does he care? And I find myself sympathizing with the shoe thrower. Wouldn't mind tossing a stiletto bush's way myself. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush Dodges Shoe In Iraq.... From: SINSULL Date: 15 Dec 08 - 08:55 AM or maybe some red white and blue Doc Martin's. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush Dodges Shoe In Iraq.... From: Riginslinger Date: 15 Dec 08 - 09:03 AM He looked like a knuckle-baller to me. Maybe the Red Sox ought to sign him up. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush Dodges Shoe In Iraq.... From: Rapparee Date: 15 Dec 08 - 09:05 AM Cubs. They need all the help they can get. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush Dodges Shoe In Iraq.... From: Wesley S Date: 15 Dec 08 - 09:16 AM The Texas Rangers could use a good picher too. Have i mentioned that our nephew is going to the U of texas on a baseball scholarship? He's a southpaw - and he's been clocked at 94 MPH. On a serious note - What I'd like to know is why it took the Secret Service so long to get to the president. I hope they're getting a good chewing out today. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush Dodges Shoe In Iraq.... From: goatfell Date: 15 Dec 08 - 09:17 AM maybe it is the shoebomber |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush Dodges Shoe In Iraq.... From: SINSULL Date: 15 Dec 08 - 09:31 AM Maybe they felt the same way I do, Wesley. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush Dodges Shoe In Iraq.... From: kendall Date: 15 Dec 08 - 09:35 AM What a pathetic excuse for a president. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush Dodges Shoe In Iraq.... From: M.Ted Date: 15 Dec 08 - 10:09 AM I never saw him move so fast before. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush Dodges Shoe In Iraq.... From: SINSULL Date: 15 Dec 08 - 10:17 AM I watched the video and it is very strange that his security men did not make it to his side until after the second shoe was thrown. It could have been acid or a grenade. Maybe they were on yellow alert instead of red. He later joked that he did see the soles of the guy's feet. Real class act. A fit ending to his pathetic attempt at being a president. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush Dodges Shoe In Iraq.... From: topical tom Date: 15 Dec 08 - 10:38 AM It seems to be a fitting demonstration for a heel without a sole. At least he still knows how to dodge the issues. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush Dodges Shoe In Iraq.... From: katlaughing Date: 15 Dec 08 - 10:56 AM JUst when ya thought he couldn't get any stupider. Smarmy, gd. mf. bastard! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush Dodges Shoe In Iraq.... From: CarolC Date: 15 Dec 08 - 10:58 AM Video... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KLA_SKo2sTM |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush Dodges Shoe In Iraq.... From: SINSULL Date: 15 Dec 08 - 10:59 AM Kind of gives us an idea of how well the US is thought of around the world. There seems to be an undercurrent of amuesment in the coverage even on the BBC. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush Dodges Shoe In Iraq.... From: SINSULL Date: 15 Dec 08 - 10:59 AM amusement |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush Dodges Shoe In Iraq.... From: Rapparee Date: 15 Dec 08 - 11:33 AM Demonstrates how many security people are in the audience. Throwing shoes is a very nasty Iraqi insult. The thrower also said, "This is your farewell kiss, you dog!" -- another Arabic insult. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush Dodges Shoe In Iraq.... From: kendall Date: 15 Dec 08 - 11:47 AM So is shaking hands with their left hand. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush Dodges Shoe In Iraq.... From: PoppaGator Date: 15 Dec 08 - 11:57 AM So help me God, I never before admired Georgie Boy as much as I did watching him duck those shoes. Admirably quick reflexes, and an uncharacteristically likeable grin on his face. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush Dodges Shoe In Iraq.... From: Alice Date: 15 Dec 08 - 12:03 PM A CNN reporter in Iraq said this morning that there were two opinions among the Iraqis - one that it was right to have thrown the shoes and one that it was impolite to have thrown them when the Iraqi prime minister was there. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush Dodges Shoe In Iraq.... From: Little Hawk Date: 15 Dec 08 - 12:12 PM Ol' George still has the moves. Quick reflexes. ;-) It was, however, a very appropriate gesture of disgust on behalf of the millions of Iraqis who have seen their country utterly wrecked by Bush's fraudulent war of aggression. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush Dodges Shoe In Iraq.... From: WFDU - Ron Olesko Date: 15 Dec 08 - 12:19 PM So now Bush knows what is like to be on the receiving end of a Nike missle strike. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush Dodges Shoe In Iraq.... From: M.Ted Date: 15 Dec 08 - 12:46 PM Exactly so, PG! One the best moments in term of office. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush Dodges Shoe In Iraq.... From: Ed T Date: 15 Dec 08 - 12:54 PM http://www.extremeskins.com/showthread.php?t=25454 |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush Dodges Shoe In Iraq.... From: goatfell Date: 15 Dec 08 - 01:00 PM maybe the reason is that they are fed up with him as well |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush Dodges Shoe In Iraq.... From: Ed T Date: 15 Dec 08 - 01:06 PM Quote from Tuimes online: I am unhappy with the man who had thrown the shoe. HE missed the target. He should have known that anybody who can dodge the US Draft during the Vietnam War , would have no problem dodging a shoe. Sid Jacques, Durham, |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush Dodges Shoe In Iraq.... From: GUEST,bankley Date: 15 Dec 08 - 01:08 PM there's a few thousand empty boots that he might have a hard time ducking..... but he'll try |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush Dodges Shoe In Iraq.... From: Big Al Whittle Date: 15 Dec 08 - 01:09 PM all very well for them to chuck shoes at george, but they didn't sort out Saddam Hussein - it was THEIR responsibility, it being their country and they didn't. George should have chucked the shoes back for every poor sod who's been killed trying to sort out their appalling shithole of a country. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush Dodges Shoe In Iraq.... From: WFDU - Ron Olesko Date: 15 Dec 08 - 01:29 PM "George should have chucked the shoes back for every poor sod who's been killed trying to sort out their appalling shithole of a country. " No, George needs to take responsibility for all the killing that we've committed or caused. If the shoe fits... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush Dodges Shoe In Iraq.... From: Rapparee Date: 15 Dec 08 - 01:32 PM Well, the shoe must go on! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush Dodges Shoe In Iraq.... From: katlaughing Date: 15 Dec 08 - 02:16 PM Everyone who has lost a loved one, Iraqi, American, and all others who are there fighting Bush's Folly, should send him a shoe of that loved one. Think of it...thousands of shoes stacking up on the White House lawn. What a visual! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush Dodges Shoe In Iraq.... From: Little Hawk Date: 15 Dec 08 - 02:20 PM Their country was recognized all over the Arab world as being the most modern, westernized, and progressive Arab society in the decades prior to the US-led invasion. Its people were, for the most part, immeasureably better off prior to the American invasion than they have been afterward, despite the fact that Saddam was a ruthless dictator....and THAT is why the guy who threw the shoes is angry at George Bush. George Bush has not rescued the nation of Iraq. He has virtually destroyed it. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush Dodges Shoe In Iraq.... From: Ed T Date: 15 Dec 08 - 02:51 PM Rembember these quotes from the Sadam regime, Iraqi Information Minister, Mohammed Saeed al-Sahhaf: "We will welcome them with bullets and shoes" "The midget, Bush, and that Rumsfeld deserve only to be beaten with shoes by freedom loving people everywhere" |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush Dodges Shoe In Iraq.... From: Big Al Whittle Date: 15 Dec 08 - 05:17 PM 'Their country was recognized all over the Arab world as being the most modern, westernized, and progressive Arab society in the decades prior to the US-led invasion. Its people were, for the most part, immeasureably better off prior to the American invasion than they have been afterward, despite the fact that Saddam was a ruthless dictator....and THAT is why the guy who threw the shoes is angry at George Bush.' yes but they invadaed Kuwait, fired Scud missiles, attempted to make a supergun, and the WMD story must have come from somewhere. On a yearly basis he killed about half as many of his own citizens as the Americans have done. And lets face it the only reason the infrastructure is not better than in pre-war days is the murderous extremists. It was a dumb move conquering the country - but conquering it and walking out again like Bush senior had done didn't really seem to work , did it? if you had left Saddam in power one day he would have got the supergun that he could hold the whole world to ransom with. Don't any of you remember when Saddam hanged that young journalist from the Observer? He had no compassion and decency, one day he would have made your eyes water if you had left him there. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush Dodges Shoe In Iraq.... From: GUEST,Comrac Date: 15 Dec 08 - 05:44 PM He was a great shot, the second almost clocked him. Known over there as putting the boot in. He only missed him by a foot. He really laced into him. I felt he was instep in what he done. It was a shining example of footwork. He brought him to Heel. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush Dodges Shoe In Iraq.... From: Ebbie Date: 15 Dec 08 - 07:40 PM weelittledrummer, you say "It was a dumb move conquering the country - but conquering it and walking out again like Bush senior had done didn't really seem to work , did it? if you had left Saddam in power one day he would have got the supergun that he could hold the whole world to ransom with." but there are no indicators that Saddam was a Hitler in the sense that he aspired to rule the world. Plus, Bush senior did not, to my mind, "conquer" Iraq- from all reports he did what he set out to do which was to send Saddam back inside his borders. As far as it not working is concerned, it DID work. Saddam could hardly move around inside his own country without being monitored. Nope. It was NOT smart to attempt to conquer Iraq- as Bush senior himself said at the time. I didn't like Bush senior but he had a whole lot more diplomatic sense than does his son. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush Dodges Shoe In Iraq.... From: catspaw49 Date: 15 Dec 08 - 08:04 PM Every death in this latest Iraq debacle......EVERY DEATH......is a result of the fuckin' Shrub. We had NO REASON to invade Iraq this time except to give that miserable pissant a hard-on. It had nothing to do with terrorism or 9-11 or WMD's........It was an invasion and a war to satisfy the resident of the office of President of the United States. To believe otherwise shows complete ignorance. That we are hated now more than ever before around the world is the work of the same piece of shit and if you can support that smirking pile of ratshit, you are broke-dick motherfucker of no redeeming social value yourself. Is that clear? Just my opinion and if you disagree, go fuck yourself.......you're a jackass. Spaw |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush Dodges Shoe In Iraq.... From: Bobert Date: 15 Dec 08 - 08:09 PM Yeah, Eb... But ya' gotta admire Junior's moves... I was impressed... He had some serious reflexes goin' on there and I loved the smirk after he dodged the first shoe... I mean, it was a "Bring it on" kinda smirk... I think Junior woulda been content to stay in Iraq all afternoon dodgin' shoes... He really did seem to enjoy it... Maybe, seein' as he's gonna get at least 10 years of Secret Service protection after he's gone that he can talk one of the Secret Service agnets into a regular shoe tossing contesat a couple times a week just to keep Junior's relexes up... No, no... I have a better idea... Why not put Junior in a Carnival Circuit??? Three shoes fir a buck... I like that... Maybe Junior would let half the money go to a favorite charaity... Heck, I'd take 10 bucks worth of shoes to thow at him... There ya go... 5 bucks for the carnaval and 5 for the Red Cross or Dick Chney Defense Fund 'er.... Hey, I think that this is about all we can reasonably get outta the boy... He ain't like the other former presidents so put him on the carnival cicuit as "President Shoe Dodger"... He'll be a hit... B~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush Dodges Shoe In Iraq.... From: Charley Noble Date: 15 Dec 08 - 08:11 PM I'm still waiting for the other shoe to drop (whatever that means!). Charley Noble |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush Dodges Shoe In Iraq.... From: Lonesome EJ Date: 15 Dec 08 - 11:08 PM This definitely has its humorous side, but really, is this the best we can expect from the Secret Service? The President Elect must have felt a chill at this entire event. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush Dodges Shoe In Iraq.... From: Ebbie Date: 16 Dec 08 - 01:09 AM Bush's demeanor at the second shoe's approach was impressive. Out of reflex he dodged the first one but he chose to hold his ground for the second one. Of course, the second one almost got him. If it had, I wonder what the next event would have been? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush Dodges Shoe In Iraq.... From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity Date: 16 Dec 08 - 01:49 AM I was offended when it hit our flag |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush Dodges Shoe In Iraq.... From: Amos Date: 16 Dec 08 - 02:49 AM Spaw, Spaw--you gotta let your feelings out, not keep them all bottled up inside you. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush Dodges Shoe In Iraq.... From: akenaton Date: 16 Dec 08 - 02:50 AM The War was not the "brain child" of GW Bush, despite what many here say, it was America's response to an attack on US power and perceptions of invulnarability, allied to more mercenary issues like the safeguarding of energy supplies. The endeavour was doomed from the start, but remember how the politicians rushed to support an "easy war"...Republicans, Democrats, Conservatives, Labour, they all wanted a share of the glory when Saddam was sacrificed. Most of the general public went along for the ride, look back on these pages and see how few spoke against the war.....to begin with! It seems our alliegence to political Parties outweighs our humanitarianism. It was really was "OUR" war no matter how much we may be in denial, but at least it has brought about an awakening as to how we are perceived by other cultures. To put it bluntly we allow ourselves to be conned again and again, this time its a "black" president, next a woman, then a transvestite....any other minority? I suppose we could have the whole circus before we realise that only Little Hawk's chimp can save us! What idiots we are, if the state of our financial institutions and the behaviour of those who run them can't convince us that the whole system is rotten to the core, then I'm afraid there is really no hope for us Its very convenient to blame Bush and people like Mrs Palin for our predicament, but perhaps we should start looking at our own thought processes before calling Sarah stupid! Now I'll take the advice of the wisest amonst us....and go fuck myself!!......Ake |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush Dodges Shoe In Iraq.... From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity Date: 16 Dec 08 - 03:40 AM Well said, Ake!!......as to your closing.....do you get by with a little help from your friends?? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush Dodges Shoe In Iraq.... From: Teribus Date: 16 Dec 08 - 08:26 AM I've been reading the coverage of this incident in The Times today. Intrestingly enough, quite a few people there (Times site) comment on one facet of this "shoe protest" that has not been raised here. If any doubted that democracy and freedom of speech had been brought to Iraq courtesy of US actions, watch those shoes being thrown and consider what would have been the mans fate had he even tried to throw them at Saddam - His throat would have been slit on camera for all the world to see and his entire family wiped out before the end of the day. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush Dodges Shoe In Iraq.... From: Riginslinger Date: 16 Dec 08 - 09:17 AM That's a good point, Teribus. And you're right, I hadn't thought of that. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush Dodges Shoe In Iraq.... From: Amos Date: 16 Dec 08 - 09:25 AM Paying down the deficit with whizzing shoes By Nicholas Kristof "A Saudi reportedly has offered $10 million for just one of the shoes thrown at President Bush in Iraq. That got me thinking. The journalist who threw the shoes no longer possesses them, of course, but hopefully some member of the White House staff picked them up and will do a deal with the Saudi buyer. The second one could be put on Ebay to defray the White House travel costs. But that got me thinking. The Times article about the Saudi offer says that the shoe-thrower is a hero around Iraq, and indeed in much of the Arab world. That suggests that the resale market for shoes thrown at Mr. Bush is fairly deep. And in this difficult economic environment, can we as a nation overlook any way of raising money? Couldn't we trot out Mr. Bush before a series of, er, unfriendly audiences, with a White house aide then designated to collect the shoes and auction them off? (To protect Mr. Bush, we could insist that attendees wear only slippers, but in any case he seems to have excellent reflexes and is a pretty good sport.) My own research suggests that a three-week presidential tour of the Islamic world, Latin America and Western Europe would generate a considerable number of flying shoes. Even if there are diminishing returns and we can sell them for an average of only $3 million each, that could bring hundreds of millions of dollars into the Treasury. If a Saudi will pay $10 million for a single shoe that missed the president, consider the income-earning potential of a pair of slippers that actually grazed a presidential ear, perhaps autographed by him as well? Given that a lame-duck president doesn't have much else to do, Mr. Bush might as well spend his final weeks raising money to pay for a fiscal stimulus, and the United States might capitalize on his global unpopularity. Any thoughts for how we could refine the business model?" See, Bobert? Great minds like a think, or whatever... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush Dodges Shoe In Iraq.... From: Teribus Date: 16 Dec 08 - 09:31 AM "It had nothing to do with terrorism or 9-11 or WMD's........It was an invasion and a war to satisfy the resident of the office of President of the United States. To believe otherwise shows complete ignorance." - Catspaw49 Well I've read some complete and utter crap on this forum at times but nothing matches this. For anybody to have written that and actually believed what they were writing, then they are in total denial of world events over the past seven years, and in total denial, or ignorance, of activities of the US Government in foreign affairs with respect to the middle-east region for the last 11 years, all of which is simple matter of record. Taking it bit by bit: Catspaw identifies three elements - - Terrorism - The terrorist attacks of 11th September, 2001 - Weapons of Mass Destruction Catspaw only omitted to mention the "rogue state" element and he would have perfectly matched the description of what the collective Intelligence Agencies and Security Agencies of the United States of America concluded was the greatest potential threat to the USA. The Joint House Security Committee also independently reached the same conclusion, and both advised the President, that Catspaw49 so willingly denegrates and dismisses, of their evaluations. For the Intelligence Agencies this was their second time round, they'd told Clinton exactly the same thing four years before in 1998. OK then Spaw, here's the scenario that they laid out before him: - This is where the attacks of 11th September, 2001 come into the picture. Those attacks showed precisely how vulnerable the United States of America was to foreign attack, 19 men armed with box-cutters and backed by with financial support amounting to less than $500,000 inflicted more casualties on the United States of America than the entire Empire of Japan achieved at Pearl Harbour on 7th December 1941. - Right, we now know how vulnerable we are, that has been clearly demonstrated, both to ourselves (the USA) and to every single potential enemy we have on this planet. OK first order of business is draw up a list of contenders. That is what was done and the list was quite long. - OK, what could be viewed as a worst case scenario considering the 9/11 attacks as a base case. Answer came back - The same sort of thing except that it involves use of weapons of mass destruction either nuclear, chemical or biological on multiple mass-centres of population in the USA. - Yup, that's a decent enough desription as a "worst" case, now cross-reference that list of countries who have agendas that are anti-US and who could be considered potential enemies and list up those who possess WMD, have WMD capability or technology. We will now tern those countries and regimes listed as being "Rogue States". - Acknowledging the fact that the USA is a super-power it is highly unlikely that any "Rogue State" would be stupid enough to launch such an attack on the USA openly, to do so would be to sign the warrant guaranteeing their own immediate destruction. So now toddle off and come up with ways that such a "Rogue State" could attack the USA without that attack being capable of being traced back to said "Rogue State". This was duly done and the means identified was via an international terrorist group hostile to the USA, this evaluation was credible as just such a group had just successfully caried out the greatest and deadliest single strike that the US had ever suffered at foreign hands, right Spaw?? - Righty-o then fellas, go through the list of those we've identified as potential "Rogue States" and highlight those with established links to terrorist groups. So was born what came to be known as "The Axis Of Evil", dreamt up, not by George W. Bush, but by all 19 of the United States of America's Intelligence and Security Agencies. The "Axis of Evil" posing the greatest potential threat to the country, her allies and her interests was: A "Rogue State" + WMD, or WMD technology + an International Terrorist Group hostile to the USA. All working together in secret to attack the US mainland. OK Spaw you tell all us ignorant beggars just why that scenario is improbable, impossible, and/or inconceivable. I'd be interested in hearing that. Oh, and by the bye Spaw, while you're formulating that answer, here's a list of nuclear weapons programmes that were in progress throughout the world in the year 2001 - That you f**kers weren't even remotely aware of: - Libya (Identifed as potential "Rogue State" Candidate) - Iran (Identifed as potential "Rogue State" Candidate) - North Korea (Identifed as potential "Rogue State" Candidate) - All the above aided and abetted by the illegal nuclear proliferation network of Pakistan's esteemed Dr.A.Q.Khan Iraq, was identified as the "Rogue State" that posed the greatest threat Spaw. Identified by the Intelligence and security Agencies and by the Joint House Security Committee, and the President was advised accordingly - Matter of record. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush Dodges Shoe In Iraq.... From: Greg F. Date: 16 Dec 08 - 09:53 AM Whoo, boy- talk about the quintessential BuShite apologist spinmeister/mythmaker. Ol' Teezer's outdone himself this time. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush Dodges Shoe In Iraq.... From: Amos Date: 16 Dec 08 - 10:11 AM Hey, T--was there some reason. seeing as hopw Iraq ain't on yore list, that we didn't invade Libya, or Iran, instead of Iraq? Man, you sure do like to cherrypick your data, I must say. Any intel at all as long as its black, as Henry Ford used to say. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush Dodges Shoe In Iraq.... From: Teribus Date: 16 Dec 08 - 10:29 AM Hey Bobert read actually read through the following and then come back and tell me why Iraq is not on the list: "Oh, and by the bye Spaw, while you're formulating that answer, here's a list of nuclear weapons programmes that were in progress throughout the world in the year 2001 - That you f**kers weren't even remotely aware of: - Libya (Identifed as potential "Rogue State" Candidate) - Iran (Identifed as potential "Rogue State" Candidate) - North Korea (Identifed as potential "Rogue State" Candidate) - All the above aided and abetted by the illegal nuclear proliferation network of Pakistan's esteemed Dr.A.Q.Khan" Bobert, I'll give you a clue: It's got something to do with the bit that says - "...here's a list of nuclear weapons programmes that were in progress throughout the world in the year 2001." I acknowledge and note Greg F that you can offer no explanation or reasoning as to why the scenario offered up to the President of the United States of America as that posing the greatest threat to the country, in the immediate aftermath of the attacks of 9/11, could in any way, shape, or form be considered improbable, impossible, and/or inconceivable. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush Dodges Shoe In Iraq.... From: Big Al Whittle Date: 16 Dec 08 - 10:52 AM The reason Libya wasn't invaded was that they saw which way the wind was blowing and beacme suddenly more concilatory in tone than they ever had been before. I'm not an apologist for Bush. Though I do see that he was under pressure to DO SOMETHING after 9/11. the way I see it, you should only go to war if you're determined to win it. Spend every fucking penny you've got and every penny you can borrow, a lot that you haven't got any way of paying back - until the bastards are dead, the enemy defeated. if its less important than that. its not important enough to waste one soldiers life on. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush Dodges Shoe In Iraq.... From: Amos Date: 16 Dec 08 - 11:17 AM Well here's the core bug in your effing so-called rationale, Turhey: a lot of people with access to only a partial amopunt of the intel Bush had saw plainly there were no WMDs and understood Hussein to be what he was, a bloviating maniac who was, at bottom, a frightened blusterer. Some of us remembered his proposition about the "Mother of All Battles" and understood that his talk of missiles and weapons was comparable bullshit. These people called BS on the proposition of the Iraq war while Bush was busy implementing his Downing Street secret meetings, and massing troops on the Kuwaiti border. He chose to "Respectfully disagree" with those who saw plainly the horror he was dragging his nation into. I think SPaw's take on it, while impassioned, is a lot closer to the truth of the matter, for all your realpolitik bluster, than yours. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush Dodges Shoe In Iraq.... From: Big Al Whittle Date: 16 Dec 08 - 11:49 AM I admit some people I talked to were incredulous of the WMD threat. some people oppose every military action that the USA embarks upon - on principle. So it makes it difficult to assess what they based their opinions on. i suppose its the monkeys on typewriters producing Hamlet - if you keep playing the one note long enough - it will eventually be right. I couldn't see at the time why they were so positive. I couldn't and still can't see why if he was a 'frightened blusterer' Saddam kept on pissing off the UN people who were charged with searching for the WMD's. The only thing that made me think, was that I had read before Dubya was elected that he was deeply in hock to the arms manufacturers for has election campaign chest - and that there would probably be a war of some kind - his thankyou note to his friends for services rendered - when he was elected. If you didn't like the guy - ask yourself 'what did I do, to oppose his election?' |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush Dodges Shoe In Iraq.... From: Teribus Date: 16 Dec 08 - 11:50 AM Ah Amos, so glad to see you got my message to Bobert, indicating why Iraq did not appear on that list, nice to see that your keeping up. Must be a bit of a change for you actually putting down stuff in your own words as opposed to reams and reams of "cut-n-pastes" of other peoples opinions. Now go back and read my post again: "Well here's the core bug in your effing so-called rationale, Turhey" I take it that that last word should have been Turkey?? As for a bug in "your (my) effing so-called rationale,". I thought that I had detailed it sufficiently so that any reader could deduce that I was not the one tasked with briefing the President. That job fell to all 19 of the Intelligence and Security Agencies of the United States of America and by the Joint House Security Committee of the US Congress, they Amos, identified Iraq as posing the greatest threat and they backed that up with all the information they had at their disposal complete with analyses and evaluations. Now then Amos, you tell me, faced with the aftermath of the attacks of 9/11, as President of the United States of America, exactly why you would have ignored that advice. Who would you, as the person responsible for the security of the USA, would have listened to instead and why - Please don't say Bobert, or you'll end up being certified. This one I really loved: "Some of us remembered his proposition about the "Mother of All Battles" and understood that his talk of missiles and weapons was comparable bullshit." Oh, if memory serves me correctly Amos, it was going to be a disaster of "Stalingrad" proportions for the US Forces. They were going to have fight "house-to-house" and "street-to-street". The predictions were that instead of being welcomed as liberators the entire country would rise up against the imperialistic US invader. Well neither happened as clear cut as all that did it Amos? Oh by the way I think the "Mother of all Battles" was a Saddam quip from the first bash, in 1991, you know the one, "Desert Storm". The Mother of all Battles was supposed to be the one that would occur should the UN try to take back Kuwait and expell Iraqi forces from the territory they had invaded. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush Dodges Shoe In Iraq.... From: pdq Date: 16 Dec 08 - 12:13 PM |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush Dodges Shoe In Iraq.... From: pdq Date: 16 Dec 08 - 12:22 PM "Saddam kept on pissing off the UN people who were charged with searching for the WMD's." It may seem like a minor1 |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush Dodges Shoe In Iraq.... From: pdq Date: 16 Dec 08 - 12:23 PM "Saddam kept on pissing off the UN people who were charged with searching for the WMD's." It may seem like a minor point, but the weapons inspectors were not supposed to be searching for the chemcal, biological or nuclear weapons. The were there the receive them and help arrange their proper disposal. Saddam was bound, by his signature at the Safwan surrender, to obey all UN resolutions. Those resolutions demanded that he turn all long range SCUDS, all chemical agents, all biological agents, all projectiles designed to deliver such agents, all nuclear material of any kind, all equipment (such as his German-made centifuges) than were desiged to enrich uranium, etc. etc. etc... Making the UN inspectors run arround and like a bunch of fools at an Easter egg hunt made Saddam laugh, I suppose, but it had to end. Too dangerous a monster. We had to put him down and we did. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush Dodges Shoe In Iraq.... From: SINSULL Date: 16 Dec 08 - 12:43 PM Still trying to figure out why it took the SS so long to get to bush. It could have been a glass vial filled with acid or anthrax or... My favorite bush moments - the shoe attack and sr. puking on the Japanese official. says it all. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush Dodges Shoe In Iraq.... From: Wesley S Date: 16 Dec 08 - 01:20 PM Agreed Sinsull - I'm glad this reporter wasn't thowing a knife. The Secret Service was asleep at the wheel. He never should have been able to throw that second shoe at the President. The SS should have had the President on the ground. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush Dodges Shoe In Iraq.... From: Teribus Date: 16 Dec 08 - 03:24 PM Oh Amos, how remiss of me, I forgot to comment on the latter part of your post: "These people called BS on the proposition of the Iraq war while Bush was busy implementing his Downing Street secret meetings, and massing troops on the Kuwaiti border. He chose to "Respectfully disagree" with those who saw plainly the horror he was dragging his nation into." - Amos Ah yes Amos all those people objecting to America's actions with GWB at the tiller eh?? Shall we look at a few of the other things that Bush managed to busily implement Amos?? - GWB, unlike Clinton before him, took the matter to the UN didn't he Amos? - What did Saddam do, as advised by Russia, France, China and Germany, Amos?? He delayed and blustered didn't he Amos, Saddam was told that America was bluffing and he believed his "friends" until GWB did what Amos?? You know the answer to this because you've already stated it - The US started assembling forces in the Arabian Gulf. - GWB, did all the right things and made all the right noises to accomplish something that neither Clinton, nor the UN had been able to do for 5 years - What was that Amos?? You obviously forgot to mention it, or was it that all wrapped up in your prejudice and bias you just could not bring yourself to give the man credit for this accomplishment - He forced Saddam, in desperation, to invite the weapons inspectors back into Iraq. As for the very last bit - that really is so laughable it is almost pathetic: "I think SPaw's take on it, while impassioned, is a lot closer to the truth of the matter, for all your realpolitik bluster, than yours." Of course you think Spaw's "take on it" is correct, no bloody wonder, guess what?? His "take on it" accords with your own. But if either of you can point out in any detail where I am wrong then I would be most surprised. Spaw's arguement and your own is based upon the misconception that it was the Bush administration who identified Iraq as the enemy and forced everything else through, but it wasn't, and unfortunately for your arguement what I am stating is a matter of public record - so much for "realpolitik bluster". Hells teeth!! Clinton advised by damn near it exactly the same Intelligence and Security Agencies of the US gave a speech on 17th February, 1998 that could have been written for GWB in March 2003 - Again a simple matter of public record, recorded fact. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush Dodges Shoe In Iraq.... From: Amos Date: 16 Dec 08 - 04:32 PM Really, T; it is not a question of who agreed with whom, but who had the correct sensibility about the difference between bullshit and ground truth. You completely ignore the difference between 1998 and 2003 with regards to both Iraq's actual state of armament AND the UN's position regarding same. You leave out acres of misinformation, altered sequence, false assertions, and other manuvers and rationalization that plainly place the burden of the Iraq war entirely in ther laps of Bush, Wolfowitz, Rove, Rumsfield and Cheney. The fact that you do this repeatedly does not make the logic any stronger. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush Dodges Shoe In Iraq.... From: Bobert Date: 16 Dec 08 - 05:19 PM First of all, T... Your usual assessment and proclainmations are as wrong now as they have always been... Like who comes up with these lists of rougue states??? Bush and his buddies, tha's who... There are a lot of countries who have a much different persoective and if they were asked the same question the US and the UK would top the list... So how about just stop with the western generated propaganda.. That's all it is... "Rouge Nations List" is pure, 100%, unaltered PR bullsh*t... So are your lame excuses for killing upwards of a million Iraqis... (But, Bobert, if we hadn't killed a muillion Iraqis then this guy wouldn't have been able to throw his shoes at Bush...) Oh, so this is what... T's 35th, 45th, 3,045th new n' improved reason to invade a country that was of no dnager to the US ot UK??? If anyone is out there heeping track of T's justification for invading Iraq please add to that ever growing list, "So that one day a man would be able to throw his shoes at Bush"... Yes, please add that one immediately... What else??? Well, nothin' right now seeing as all we've heard new from T is his very latest reason for the war... B~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush Dodges Shoe In Iraq.... From: Teribus Date: 16 Dec 08 - 06:17 PM Every question evaded or ignored Amos, well done, true to form, you didn't let me down. If they were "Rouge" Nations Bobert, Rouge China would have been on the list. As for the rest of your post it's just the same f**k-wit babble, in which you point-blank deny documented fact available on public record. Not one of you, Catspaw49; Bobert; Amos; Greg F has come out with anything to refute one point that I have made - Gentlemen, your silence is deafening. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush Dodges Shoe In Iraq.... From: Bobert Date: 16 Dec 08 - 06:33 PM You haven't made any points, T... You have made proclamations... Hells Bells, my man... I could proclain that Donald Duck made Bush invade Iraq... But that isn't based on any facts... Just as your list of proclaimations... They aren't based on facts... I'm not saying that everything you write is fiction but you analysis of these facts takes them and turns them into your opinions and proclaimations... As for "public Record"... Everything is public record wheteher is is right on not... This is the information age, mah man, so if I say that Alabama is a rogue state and it get's picked up somewhere and some Googles "Alabama" then there it is that Alabama is a rogue state... You really don't get this stuff, do you, T??? I mean, you still think that UN Resoultuions are the Holy Grail... You probably believe in the Tooth Fairy, too... B~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush Dodges Shoe In Iraq.... From: akenaton Date: 16 Dec 08 - 07:20 PM Vulnerability and how to avoid it.......Stop fucking other nations and cultures! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush Dodges ShoeS In Iraq.... From: Donuel Date: 16 Dec 08 - 07:37 PM On FOX 'Morning with Friends', they were talking about the now Historic Icon of the "flying shoes" when the blonde woman on the panel took off her 8 inch steel stilletto heeled shoe held it up to the camera and said "Shoes can kill, why isn't anyone talking about the threat to the President's life?" The other two guys at the desk went slack jawed but didn't pursue her plea to discuss herfatal shoe theory. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush Dodges Shoe In Iraq.... From: M.Ted Date: 16 Dec 08 - 09:56 PM I've been surprised that, with the level of feeling that he has on the issue, Terribus has not enlisted for some sort of service in Iraq. Military service is not the only option--there are many civilian jobs, including those in private security forces--and financial hardship is no excuse, the work is highly remunerative-- Don't waste your passion in empty chatter, T--there are ample opportunities to back up your words with deeds! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush Dodges Shoe In Iraq.... From: Teribus Date: 17 Dec 08 - 02:52 AM Well done M.Ted, by all means don't address any of the points made, just attack the person making them. What's that called again?? But one point you have inadvertantly made M.Ted is this, while I am capable of arguing my corner and fully prepared to do so, those holding other views are not, and cannot. Hey Bobert - Is this documented fact or not: "This is a time of tremendous promise for America. The superpower confrontation has ended; on every continent democracy is securing for more and more people the basic freedoms we Americans have come to take for granted. Bit by bit the information age is chipping away at the barriers economic, political and social that once kept people locked in and freedom and prosperity locked out. But for all our promise, all our opportunity, people in this room know very well that this is not a time free from peril, especially as a result of reckless acts of outlaw nations and an unholy axis of terrorists, drug traffickers and organized international criminals. We have to defend our future from these predators of the 21st century. They feed on the free flow of information and technology. They actually take advantage of the freer movement of people, information and ideas. And they will be all the more lethal if we allow them to build arsenals of nuclear, chemical and biological weapons and the missiles to deliver them. We simply cannot allow that to happen. There is no more clear example of this threat than Saddam Hussein's Iraq. His regime threatens the safety of his people, the stability of his region and the security of all the rest of us." The speech is Clinton's, the date of that speech was 17th February, 1998. Here's some other bits of it you might like, describing the loops the UN had been run round before, it goes part way to explain why the US was not going to buy it second time around: "Remember, as a condition of the cease-fire after the Gulf War, the United Nations demanded not the United States the United Nations demanded, and Saddam Hussein agreed to declare within 15 days this is way back in 1991 within 15 days his nuclear, chemical and biological weapons and the missiles to deliver them, to make a total declaration. That's what he promised to do." "Now, instead of playing by the very rules he agreed to at the end of the Gulf War, Saddam has spent the better part of the past decade trying to cheat on this solemn commitment." "The UNSCOM inspectors believe that Iraq still has stockpiles of chemical and biological munitions, a small force of Scud-type missiles, and the capacity to restart quickly its production program and build many, many more weapons." "Iraq must agree and soon, to free, full, unfettered access to these sites anywhere in the country. There can be no dilution or diminishment of the integrity of the inspection system that UNSCOM has put in place. Now those terms are nothing more or less than the essence of what he agreed to at the end of the Gulf War. The Security Council, many times since, has reiterated this standard. If he accepts them, force will not be necessary. If he refuses or continues to evade his obligations through more tactics of delay and deception, he and he alone will be to blame for the consequences." "Saddam Hussein's Iraq reminds us of what we learned in the 20th century and warns us of what we must know about the 21st. In this century, we learned through harsh experience that the only answer to aggression and illegal behavior is firmness, determination, and when necessary action. "In the next century, the community of nations may see more and more the very kind of threat Iraq poses now a rogue state with weapons of mass destruction ready to use them or provide them to terrorists, drug traffickers or organized criminals who travel the world among us unnoticed." Hey Bobert, want to look carefully at that last little snippet?? Remember the date 17th February 1998: "...the very kind of threat Iraq poses now a rogue state with weapons of mass destruction ready to use them or provide them to terrorists" I suppose now that you're going to tell us it was GWB who wrote the speech for his pal Bill Clinton. A couple of things you cannot tell me Bobert is that: 1. He never said it 2. That it is not a matter of record that he said it. It also backs up what I have said all along. Iraq was identified as posing a threat to the USA, her allies and her interests almost three years before the inauguration of George W. Bush as President of the United States of America. That threat was identified after extensive analyses and evaluation by the Intelligence and Security Agencies of the United States of America, not plucked out of thin air the moment George W. Bush came to office, and, considering the evidence, anyone holding to that latter rather idiotic point of view is frankly talkin' Sh*te. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush Dodges Shoe In Iraq.... From: Big Al Whittle Date: 17 Dec 08 - 03:56 AM This weird thing with Americans. They identify an enemy, they start a war, they commit the lives of their young people to fighting it - and then somehow they think, fuck it! our motives are not pure enough. The time to decide that, was before the war started. Harold Wilson was so wise in keeping us out of Vietnam, when Australia was joining in the fray and when Ted Heath (the head of the oppostion ) was saying, we shouldn't just be cheering from the sidelines - we should have some regiments in there. Personally I was against that war - when I saw the gang of assholes they were trying to keep in power. Still even then I couldn't see what Jane Fonda was going on about when she didn't want them to bomb the dams - and eventually they didn't. If you're at war, and the war is worth winning - you do anything. And anything else is a betrayal of the lads who put their lives on the line for you. You can't keep going on like this. War is war. If you're not doing it as a last dreadful resort (something that you MUST win) - don't do it. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush Dodges Shoe In Iraq.... From: Teribus Date: 17 Dec 08 - 05:44 AM I agree with that 100% Al, thanks for posting it. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush Dodges Shoe In Iraq.... From: Bobert Date: 17 Dec 08 - 07:16 AM Well, T, I guess if yer quoting Slick Willie then you certainly have damaged your case beyond repair... He'll say anything that pops into his head... That's exactly what I've been observing in your posts going back to the mad-dash-to-Iraq... Now it all makes sense... Not exactly truthful... But it does make sense... As for the shoe thrower, if I had thrown a shoe at my little brother, my mama would have sent me to my room... I think that's an appropriate punishment for the guy... Maybe an hour's quiet time... B;~) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush Dodges Shoe In Iraq.... From: catspaw49 Date: 17 Dec 08 - 08:09 AM Yes, war IS hell......Couldn't agree more. I'm glad to see that Teribus and wld have decided to agree with me about that. The only minor difference is that I don't believe we had any reason other than a Dubya erection to go to war with Iraq in the first place. Perhaps with some additional consideration you two will also agree with me on that point. Spaw |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush Dodges Shoe In Iraq.... From: Big Al Whittle Date: 17 Dec 08 - 08:45 AM There are always reasons for going to war. Whether they are the declared reasons is a subject debated in the first scene of Shakespeare's Henry V. basically Henry wants France, so he gets a load of religious and political gobbledegook together and fabricates a reason for going to war, and he is very quick to take offence. Whether Bush went to war for undeclared motives, we will have to let history judge. I don't think anybody would be surprised if that were the case. But there would have been a motive (it wasn't just a flash of inspiration) - and none of us really KNOW the truth of the matter. It comes down to if you trust him. I don't - not after the WMD thing. Still once you're at war, the important thing is to win the bloody thing. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush Dodges Shoe In Iraq.... From: Greg F. Date: 17 Dec 08 - 09:03 AM I acknowledge and note Greg F that you can offer no explanation or reasoning ... It's not a matter of "can't" Teezer me lad, it that there aren't enough hours in the day to deal with the sum total of your preposterous assertions- plus, I'm limited to a "one screen" response. Tell ya what: read the book by Vincent Bugliosi ( hardly one of your wishy-washy, Liberal, Left-Wing, Taliban-Loving Traitor to America types ) on Bush & the BuShites - - read for comprehension & retention, now -- and then get back to me. Save everyone here a lot of time. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush Dodges Shoe In Iraq.... From: GUEST,Bob Ryszkiewicz Date: 17 Dec 08 - 09:12 AM Hi Kids: And so, during this time of Peace, reindeer, mangers, Santa & shopping, what have we learned from this incident? 1/ALWAYS practice BEFORE you throw your shoes at Bush. 2/NEVER use NEW shoes! 3/And did anybody besides me think that George was a bit TOO good at ducking? BR |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush Dodges Shoe In Iraq.... From: Teribus Date: 17 Dec 08 - 10:00 AM "Well, T, I guess if yer quoting Slick Willie then you certainly have damaged your case beyond repair" - Bobert How's that then Bobert?? Now what was it that you and Spaw reckoned - It was Bush's idea, just off the top of his head to invade Iraq, because he wanted a war. And Bobert's own: " who comes up with these lists of rougue states??? Bush and his buddies, tha's who." "Rogue States" Bobert?? Now you tell me who coined the term, wasn't George W. Bush was it now Bobert? The term had been used to identify Iraq three years before GWB came to power. As for the lists of "rogue states" Bobert, note "lists" plural Bobert because there were two independently created lists, generated by the Intelligence and Security Agencies of the United States of America and by the Congressional Joint House Committee on Security. I think the running order for candidates to fulfill the role of "rogue state" went something like: 1. Iraq 2. Iran 3. North Korea 4. Libya 5. Syria Who was it assembled the equation of "rogue state" + WMD + terrorist group = Greatest potential threat Bobert?? That wasn't GWB either was it?? Again all laid out three years before George W. Bush became President of the United States of America. Who was it way back in February 1998, described the components of that threat equation as representing "an evil axis" Bobert?? It wasn't George W. Bush now was it Bobert. "The only minor difference is that I don't believe we had any reason other than a Dubya erection to go to war with Iraq in the first place. Perhaps with some additional consideration you two will also agree with me on that point." - Catspaw49 Dealing with the first sentence there Spaw, considering the circumstances the US found itself in the wake of the attacks of 9/11 and the evidence available at the time, there was no way that it would have gone down differently irrespective of who had been President of the USA. As for your second sentence, very little chance because your contention is based on the falsehood that GWB came into office intent on starting a war with Iraq - He didn't. Greg F your eminent lawyer's book is so convincing that not one of the 50 State Attorney Generals he appeals to has brought any action against GWB for murder and if they ain't buying into it then neither am I. And quite frankly looking at what Vincent Bugliosi puts forward as examples of "evidence" I am not at all surprised. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush Dodges Shoe In Iraq.... From: M.Ted Date: 17 Dec 08 - 10:22 AM Though you seem to have missed it, Terribus, we all know what you think, and have for a remarkably long time. We all know what Bobert, Catspaw, WLD, and the rest think, too. My point that it doesn't really make much difference how good you think your arguments are, they don't do much good. Not that they aren't appreciated--God knows, without you, Bobert would have nothing to do-- |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush Dodges Shoe In Iraq.... From: Ebbie Date: 17 Dec 08 - 10:44 AM I just recognized Teribus's rhetorical style- it is from the House of Commons (is it?) where the Prime Minister pops up and fires back at other figures that have popped up. I can even see T leaning on his arm on the table. Doesn't actually mean a thing; it is just habit and tradition and everyone goes home feeling good about themselves. If you're from the UK, anyway. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush Dodges Shoe In Iraq.... From: Teribus Date: 17 Dec 08 - 10:52 AM How awfully nice of you M.Tted. But as long as the likes of Bobert; Amos; yourself; Catspaw49; Greg F; et al, wish to trot out the seemingly never ending list of lies, myths, half-truths and misrepresentations espoused by the "socialist/liberal" left in support of debate, then I will exercise my right to contradict them whenever I can by confronting their assertions with substantive fact. On this particular topic that has arisen on this thread, if Bobert; Catspaw49 and all the others want to believe that the war in Iraq came about solely because GWB wished it and instigated it and toiled ceaselessly to bring it about from the minute he gained the White House in 2001, more fool them. Now if they want to bring such beliefs out in informed discussion on the subject, good luck to them, they will only suceed in making themselves look downright stupid. Oh, by the bye, another little teaser for Bobert. Who was it that first inadvertantly described the "battle" between the "West" and "Islam" as a "crusade"?? I'll give you a little hint - It wasn't George W. Bush. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush Dodges Shoe In Iraq.... From: Amos Date: 17 Dec 08 - 11:06 AM HEy, T!! You once again completely ignore what changed in Iraq between 1998 and 2002. Are you leaving that whole piece of history out because it irretrievably undermines your war-mongering obsession? Or was it just a repeated oversight despite reminders? It would be pure-dee awful to discover that Saddam's Iraq had actually disassembled their WMD programs, even while he was boasting and posturing about his military power, wouldn't it, now? It would be interesting to find out why he never unleashed his WMD on the invaders of Gulf 1 or the Bush Brigades and never defended his regime with anything more powerful than a conventional artillery shell, n'est-ce pas? What was he thinking??? Sheeshe. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush Dodges Shoe In Iraq.... From: Big Al Whittle Date: 17 Dec 08 - 11:55 AM yes but it wouldn't be as pure dee awful as Chicago or new york going missing. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush Dodges Shoe In Iraq.... From: GUEST,Bob Ryszkiewicz Date: 17 Dec 08 - 12:10 PM Sometimes this place makes me feel like I'm in a bar. Only no booze...BR |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush Dodges Shoe In Iraq.... From: Amos Date: 17 Dec 08 - 12:15 PM Going to war on a hypothetical rationale is the epitome of stupid, incompetent leadership. Intelligent people know the difference between probabilities and wild speculations. Usually. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush Dodges Shoe In Iraq.... From: Donuel Date: 17 Dec 08 - 12:52 PM There are some parents who virtually send their children to foreign wars out of tradition or strident ideology but most parents simply watch their kids march off to war. About a fifth of those parents can never own any personal respondsibilty for the effect of the war on their children because the grief or eternal regret would destroy their lives. I understand the strident unswerving support of a criminal war by such parents. In such cases, certain facts are the enemy that could slay their psyche. To live with a delusion is perhaps preferable to a lifetime of debilitating grief or suicide. It is compassionate to not challenge such parents about war. If you ever could succeed in enlightening them, at worst it could be fatal. There is a season for such people to come to grips with denial. I may be best to be gentle than challenging with people in this dilemma. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush Dodges Shoe In Iraq.... From: Teribus Date: 17 Dec 08 - 01:46 PM Very good point Big Al, well put, pity Amos couldn't respond to it. Well then Amos, let's take a look: "You once again completely ignore what changed in Iraq between 1998 and 2002." OK Amos what did happen in Iraq between 1998 and 2002. Of course it depends exactly when the period starts and when it finishes. Let's take it from the time in February 1998 when Iraq was identified as posing a threat and Bill Clinton revealed this to the assembled Congress on the 17th of that month until the good Dr. Hans Blix arrived with UNMOVIC in December 2002. So throughout the perod defined by Amos these are the changes: - Saddam continued to run the "Oil for Food" Scam with bought off UN officials and smuggled out oil to the tune of some $2 billion a year - Correct so far Amos?? - As the oil was smuggled out, Saddam smuggled in 384 rocket motors that were part of a proscribed missile development programme. This programme was detected by British Intelligence and uncovered by UNMOVIC - Correct again Amos?? - Made every attempt to convince his neighbours in the region that Iraq did indeed still posses both WMD weapons, delivery systems and manufacturing facilities - Built Presidential Palaces (17 off) one the size of Washington DC and refused access to UNSCOM Inspection teams. At the same time throughout 1998 he ran rings round UNSCOM's efforts and baulked them at every turn. This was in direct contravention of the Safwan cease-fire Accord as detailed in UN Security Council Resolution 687 - Murdered some 602 Kuwaiti nationals that he had had abducted from Kuwait in 1991 and who for very good reasons he could not release and repatriate as he was required to do. - Made purchases, or attempted to make purchases that indicated that he had not only chemical and biological WMD programmes running but that he had also revived his nuclear weapons programme. Nothing to do with "yellow cake" from Niger Amos, more to do with medical scanners from Germany and those aluminium tubes which fed the lie. All part of Saddam's deception - Still correct Amos?? - Entered into oil deals with Russia targeted at arms and command and communications systems that would make it harder for the US to detect. Also involved getting his old trading partners Russia, China and France to see what they could do about getting sanctions lifted. - Ordered increased "painting" of US and UK aircraft patrolling the Northern and Southern "No-Fly" Zones by Iraqi Integrated Air Defence Radars. - Celebrated and publically applauded the attacks on the US mainland on 11th September, 2001. - Allowed Zarqawi to be treated for his war wounds obtained in Afghanistan in an Iraqi medical facility run by one of Saddam's sons also allowed to remain in Iraq to recuperate. - At the same time fleeing from Afghanistan we had an associate of Osama bin Laden, one Mullah Krekar of Answr Al-Islam, who Saddam allowed to set up shop in a valley with seven villages up in Kurdistan located just south of the boundary of the Northern "No-Fly" Zone. What Saddam wanted Krekar to do was cause trouble between the Shiia and Sunni Kurds so that Saddam would have a legitimate reason to send his army in to pacify the area - didn't work, the Kurds saw it coming and basically ignored Krekar, who knew he was being used and didn't really trust Saddam. - Sponsored suicide bomb attacks in Israel by Palestinians. I believe the going rate was $25,000 to the bombers family as a lump sum payment and a pension for life. Have I missed anything out there Amos?? One thing we do know is that out of that period UNSCOM's Inspectors were withdrawn and from that point forward, until after the invasion of March 2003, the only concrete information relating to WMD in Iraq was the UNSCOM and IAEA Reports to the UN Security Council delivered in January 1999 - That report stating what UNSCOM and the IAEA believed Iraq may have still possessed in terms of WMD weapons, delivery systems and precursor chemicals forms the basis for all intelligence assessments up until the Iraqi declaration made in response to UN security Council Resolution 1441 on the 15th December 2002, two of the Inspectors who signed off on the UNSCOM report of January 1999 were Scott Ritter and Hans Blix. "It would be pure-dee awful to discover that Saddam's Iraq had actually disassembled their WMD programs, even while he was boasting and posturing about his military power, wouldn't it, now?" Unless that destruction of WMD and WMD programmes could be documented and verified by UNSCOM it would be immaterial. The doubt would still remain, after all Amos, nobody with a whit of common-sense would take Saddam Hussein's word for it would they?? "It would be interesting to find out why he never unleashed his WMD on the invaders of Gulf 1 or the Bush Brigades and never defended his regime with anything more powerful than a conventional artillery shell, n'est-ce pas? What was he thinking???" Well Amos, he did use WMD during the Iran/Iraq War, of that there is no doubt. Now why did he not use Chemical and Biological weapons against UN Forces during "Desert Storm"?? I can immediately think of two very good reasons related to his prospective opponents and a third relating to Saddam's relationship with his own Army: 1. Unlike Iran, his opponents in "Desert Storm", were primarily military formations equipped and trained to fight against a far deadlier foe in Europe who also had Chemical and Biological weapons. The US and UK Forces arraigned against him could survive and fight in a chemical and biological environment Iraq's Army could not. 2. His former Soviet buddies had probably advised Saddam against using Chemical or Biological weapons against US Forces as long, long ago Amos, in the 1950's during the "Cold War", the Soviets and their Warsaw Pact Allies were told in such a manner as to leave absolutely no doubt in anyone's mind that the immediate response to any attack involving Chemical or Biological weapons would be immediate retaliation with tactical nuclear weapons. If that were to happen as far as Saddam and Iraq goes that would have been it - Game, Set and Match - Goodnight Vienna. 3. Ever wonder why there was such a thing as a Republican Guard, a Special Republican Guard and the Fedayheen Saddam in Iraq Amos?? They all existed Amos, because Saddam Hussein did not trust his Army, which is why all their main barracks were out of Baghdad, why their transport was kept with insufficient fuel to reach Baghdad, why the Army units were only supplied with ammunition sufficient for 24 hours. If he distrusts his Army to that extent do you honestly, seriously think that he is going to supply them with Chemical or Biological weapons?? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush Dodges Shoe In Iraq.... From: GUEST,Comrac Date: 17 Dec 08 - 01:56 PM On news tonight, some man has offered the guy who threw the shoes his 20 year old daughter as a bride ! Maybe heel walk her up the isle and both will be instep. He may even commit his sole to her. He better not come home laced or tight ! Well at least this girl comes from a wealthy background, I doubt he will be on his uppers. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush Dodges Shoe In Iraq.... From: Greg F. Date: 17 Dec 08 - 02:27 PM Greg F your eminent lawyer's book is so convincing that not one of the 50 State Attorney Generals he appeals to has brought any action against GWB ... Yet. ...if they ain't buying into it then neither am I. But Teezer: have you read the book??? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush Dodges Shoe In Iraq.... From: Greg F. Date: 17 Dec 08 - 02:29 PM P.S.: That's "attorneys general". |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush Dodges Shoe In Iraq.... From: akenaton Date: 17 Dec 08 - 02:41 PM Well I think I agree with Ted.....The arguments have been advanced umpteen times by left, right and by folks who just hate war. The end product is that the overwhelming majority everywhere believe the war to have been cooked up to suit the agenda of the American administration and supported by a glory hunting Labour UK prime minister. The standing of the USA and the UK as been damaged forever by this stupid and cruel war The incident of the shoes and the subsequent celebrity of the thrower bears this out. The irony is, that if the Tories had been in power in the UK we would never have gone into Iraq, Labour would have voted against it almost to a man and there would have been more than enough decent Conservative rebels to ensure no war. America should take heed of the damage that can be wrought by a "Liberal" when intoxicated by ego and power....Ake |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush Dodges Shoe In Iraq.... From: Amos Date: 17 Dec 08 - 03:53 PM Especially a dumb one. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush Dodges Shoe In Iraq.... From: akenaton Date: 18 Dec 08 - 03:04 AM Don't know about that Amos, I suppose Mr Bush was a little dumb, but hardly a liberal. Whereas, Mr Blair promoted himself as a "liberal" but in reality was a charissmatic, psuedo religious madman. My warning of course referred to Mr Obama, who looks like turning into America's first "grey" president, a shadowy figure who will fulfill his purpose by consigning himself to the margins, leaving the field clear for the real "fixers" Business as usual for the politicians...... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush Dodges Shoe In Iraq.... From: Teribus Date: 18 Dec 08 - 05:39 AM Though some of you might like this: http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/cartoon/ Open and scroll down to the third cartoon. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush Dodges Shoe In Iraq.... From: Greg F. Date: 18 Dec 08 - 07:33 AM But Teezer: have you read the book??? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush Dodges Shoe In Iraq.... From: Teribus Date: 18 Dec 08 - 08:03 AM Give's a chance Greg F - or is it a very, very slim book. I say again the book has been out long enough, the Attorneys General in 50 states haven't taken Vinnie up on the strength of his arguements to prosecute GWB, serves as a good indication that those arguements are weak, certainly sounded that way in the precis I've read in various reviews and ads trying to sell the damn thing. I mean Greg F it's the same old catalogue isn't it: - He lied (Yet no-one can actually give such an example - I mean you can't and I take it that you have read the book?) - Illegal wire-taps (Yet nobody has proved that to be the case) - Etc, etc. But on the subject I'd rather read the actual intelligence briefs, evaluations, analyses and source material used, than some lawyer with an agenda. As for this from Akenaton: "The end product is that the overwhelming majority everywhere believe the war to have been cooked up to suit the agenda of the American administration and supported by a glory hunting Labour UK prime minister. The standing of the USA and the UK as been damaged forever by this stupid and cruel war" If that is true (definitely is on this forum) I'd make the point that what people believe to be true, irrespective of how many, does not necessarily mean that it is true. I particularly liked the last sentence: "The standing of the USA and the UK as been damaged forever by this stupid and cruel war" Let's face it Akenaton as far as your perception of the US goes, for as long as you've been toddling round this planet it's standing has been such that it could have passed underneath an earthworm wearin' a lum hat. "damaged forever" don't you bloody kid yourself, just wait for the next time there's a natural disaster, or if people are threatened and in fear for their lives - Then see who people look to, to pull the coals out of the fire. Give you a hint Akenaton it will not be to France, Germany, Russia or China that people will look, it will be to the anglo-sphere and the good ol' US of A, as always. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush Dodges Shoe In Iraq.... From: Greg F. Date: 18 Dec 08 - 08:27 AM So, Teezer - - you trash the book & the author's thesis & conclusions without having read it. Figures. See, that's been your problem all along: you shouldn't let other people do your thinking for you. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush Dodges Shoe In Iraq.... From: Teribus Date: 18 Dec 08 - 09:09 AM Something that you must do all the bloody time Greg F because you sure as hell can't read for yourself. Now let's see I was advised to read Vinnies book by you when? Answer - 17 Dec 08 - 09:03 AM It is now 18th December 14:55 CET Figures - shows what a grip you have on reality If you think for one second that just at your bidding I have to dash out buy a book just because you advise me to, read it all in less than 24 hours - You mate are f**kin' dreaming, I've much better things to do with my time, whereas you should probably get on out there and get yourself a life. I haven't read it YET, still doesn't alter my opinion of what the indications are; - Written by an attention seeking, "headline-junkie" of a lawyer; - No impending prosecutions; - Same old "phoney" charges that couldn't even get Congress interested in "Impeachment; - The fact that you recommend it, seeing some of the BAA-Lamb "socialist" left-wing tripe that you come out with. Have any of the 50 Attorneys General brought charges against George W. Bush yet Greg F?????? No!! Wonder why? Has anybody actually brought an Impeachment Motion against George W. Bush yet Greg F????? No!! Wonder why? "that's been your problem all along: you shouldn't let other people do your thinking for you." - HA, bloody well wish most of you would apply a bit of original thought and logic to your arguements instead of personal attacks. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush Dodges Shoe In Iraq.... From: akenaton Date: 18 Dec 08 - 03:42 PM Come on Teribus, you've been around just as long as me I bet; and you surely understand that it is perception which is important. The "facts" are open to interpretation.....but once folks make up their minds, as in the reasons for the Iraq war, they are seldom shifted. Just look at how we now view Mr Blair, as opposed to the euphoria and hope which accompanied his election |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush Dodges Shoe In Iraq.... From: Bobert Date: 18 Dec 08 - 05:21 PM Yo, Ake... T-Bird is F. Lee Bailey... Don't matter how guilty the client is F. Lee is going to twist everything to make the guilty folks look like alter boys... What I find humorous is ever now, T would have us believe that the reason that Bush ordered up this war is becasue of Bill Clinton... What a hoot!!! Oh, and 100... B~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush Dodges Shoe In Iraq.... From: Bobert Date: 18 Dec 08 - 05:31 PM Ahhhhh, not to mention that, as per what Amos was saying' things changed on the ground in Iraq between 1998 and order to invade... One of the most important fact that T conviently loves to ignore is the fact that in January of 2003, there was a full contingency of weapons ispectors in Iraq and that in his speech before the UN, Hnas Bliz said that the Iraqis were cooperating fully in letting the inspect wherever they wanted... There is not other fact that is as damning to the the pro-war folks and they have no real anwser other that the usual blah-blah-blah UN resoultion bullsh*t... They must think that noone remembers the sequence of events or the facts... Here the US and UK are responsible for the destabilization of an entire region, the killings of upwards of one million Iraqis and according to the US intellgent community an increase of terrorists acts as a result of the war and we're supposed to believe that George Bush had no other choice??? This is a rediculous argument on their part... Og course George Bush had other choices... Problem is that he is a stubborn man who does not listen to any other view points other than his own... B~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush Dodges Shoe In Iraq.... From: Teribus Date: 18 Dec 08 - 06:55 PM A couple of things: First we have: "Come on Teribus, you've been around just as long as me I bet; and you surely understand that it is perception which is important." Em, No Akenaton, perception is not in the least important, perception as we have seen can be engineered to produce whatever result a person desires. Perception Akenaton, is not truth, you may bow to the god of perception as and when it suits you. I will always prefer truth that stands up to critical analysis. Next we have: "as per what Amos was saying' things changed on the ground in Iraq between 1998 and order to invade..." I've listed them Bobert and none of you have contradicted that list of changes that I posted, or added to them. Now none of those changes embarass my case, they sure as hell embarass yours. And finally we have: "One of the most important fact that T conviently loves to ignore is the fact that in January of 2003, there was a full contingency of weapons ispectors in Iraq and that in his speech before the UN, Hnas Bliz said that the Iraqis were cooperating fully in letting the inspect wherever they wanted..." Part one of this is the denial by Bobert, Amos, et al, that the ONLY reason that UNMOVIC Inspectors were invited back into Iraq was because of the pressure applied by George W. Bush. Now come on guys just for once in your lives be honest and give credit where credit is due. The UN and Bill Clinton had been trying for years to get the UNSCOM Inspectors back into Iraq and both had failed, GWB suceeded by parking the best part of 220,000 troops on Saddam's borders. The second part of Bobert's statement is a blatant, down right lie, and Bobert, assuming that he can read, is fully aware of that. Anybody doubting that only has to read the Reports made to the United Nations Security Council by Dr. Hans Blix to determine that the Iraqis were not providing full, pro-active co-operation to the UNMOVIC Inspection teams as was required by UN Security Council Resolution 1441 from DAY ONE - That is a simple matter of record if anybody can be bothered to read it - Bobert isn't bothered to read it, basically because Bobert prefers lies to truth. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush Dodges Shoe In Iraq.... From: Bobert Date: 18 Dec 08 - 07:31 PM Who cares why the inspectors were back in Iraq, T... The fact that they were there is the entire story line... Now last time you said that it was a lie about Blix statements I provided the source, which was not refuted by you or anyone else... Seems that you are the one who can't read, T... Do you want me to produce the quote (for about the umpteenth time) where Blix said the Iraqis were cooperating??? If so, I gladly will... The only blatent lies flying around this joint are coming from you, T... Not me... Not Amos... Not Ake... You have the market captured... But, now don't go gettin' yer nickers in a wad... I still like you... B~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush Dodges Shoe In Iraq.... From: Ron Davies Date: 18 Dec 08 - 11:35 PM There is now an online game where you, yes YOU, can chuck a shoe at GWB. If he ducks, you're considered to have hit him. Link is through Netscape. I hit him 4 times in a minute. It might be worth even more than a minute of your time. Or maybe not. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush Dodges Shoe In Iraq.... From: Teribus Date: 19 Dec 08 - 12:44 AM By all means produce the quotation from Dr. Blix's report, but this time Bobert please quote the entire text relating to Iraqi co-operation you the bit where Blix stated that co-operation required is a two part thing and about how the Iraqi's were co-operating on one part but not the other. I believe that you, me and BB have been through this all before - You were cherry-picking then and you are cherry-picking now. Doesn't alter the fact the to state that the Iraqi's were co-operating fully with the UNMOVIC Inspection Teams is a blatant lie, which you no doubt will continue to repeat, much in the same way that you keep banging on about a million dead Iraqi's, when even the source you think you are quoting states MAY HAVE died instead of Simply died which you come out with. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush Dodges Shoe In Iraq.... From: akenaton Date: 19 Dec 08 - 04:13 AM "Em, No Akenaton, perception is not in the least important, perception as we have seen can be engineered to produce whatever result a person desires. Perception Akenaton, is not truth, you may bow to the god of perception as and when it suits you. I will always prefer truth that stands up to critical analysis." Hah! Teribus....So you think the "truth" cannot be engineered to pruduce whatever result a person desires?.....Isn't that what you do on a daily basis here? Isn't that what all governments and politicians do as a matter of course? "Critical analysis" by whom? Just today I was listening to a programme on radio 4 about journalism,in which Hunter S Thomson commented that succeeding American administrations had never even considered "telling the truth" in relation to war! I too admire your "indefatiquability" (sp?) but the weight of public opinion has become too much of a burden methinks.....Ake |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush Dodges Shoe In Iraq.... From: Bobert Date: 19 Dec 08 - 07:57 AM The entire quote, T, is the report that Blix made to the UN.... It is pages and pages and would fill several computer screens which I'm sure you don't remember is a Mudville "no-no" but after work tonight I'll drag out my copy of the report and give you the meat-n-taters which is the "cooperation" statement which any sane president would have used as an excuse to step back and let things unfold... BTW, Ake... You might want to check out my postina on the Katrina thread... I think you might find it somewhat enlightening... B~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush Dodges Shoe In Iraq.... From: Art Thieme Date: 19 Dec 08 - 01:15 PM THE SHOE is being spinned/spun by some as an example of how freedoms (free speach actually) has taken root in Iraq since our fortunate arrival there. To me, all that had to with free speach is that both of the guy's shoes had tongues. (So maybe they were speaking in tongues!) Art |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush Dodges Shoe In Iraq.... From: maple_leaf_boy Date: 19 Dec 08 - 03:51 PM "Speaking in tongues". That's "pun"ny. Another reason why actions speak louder than words. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush Dodges Shoe In Iraq.... From: frogprince Date: 19 Dec 08 - 04:30 PM Seems it was a lot more effective than just laceing into Bush verbally... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush Dodges Shoe In Iraq.... From: Amos Date: 19 Dec 08 - 04:32 PM I was fit to be tied when I read Art's pun. THe man is the sole of wit. Me, I'll stick to system: lath in, firtht out. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush Dodges Shoe In Iraq.... From: Charley Noble Date: 19 Dec 08 - 07:39 PM Anyone want to bet how long it will be before the "Throw the Shoe at GWB" video game is available for sale? I would have thought that Art was too strait-laced to make such attrocious puns. Charley Noble Cheerily, Charley Noble |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush Dodges Shoe In Iraq.... From: Charley Noble Date: 19 Dec 08 - 09:47 PM Damn! The game is already available! Charley Noble |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush Dodges Shoe In Iraq.... From: alanabit Date: 20 Dec 08 - 03:35 AM How to get in some training. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush Dodges Shoe In Iraq.... From: Don Firth Date: 20 Dec 08 - 04:43 PM America has a new respect for George W. Bush! He has shown the world that he actually is adept as duckiing things besides responsibility! If he wants a follow-up career, he's a natural for the duck-tank at carnivals and fairs. Don Firth |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush Dodges Shoe In Iraq.... From: Charley Noble Date: 20 Dec 08 - 08:10 PM Pathetic! I only scored one hit, and the screen kept freezing. Charley Noble |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush Dodges Shoe In Iraq.... From: Big Al Whittle Date: 20 Dec 08 - 08:27 PM I didn't score a single one. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush Dodges Shoe In Iraq.... From: Amos Date: 21 Dec 08 - 01:50 AM I got three in the first rpund. Very satisfying. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush Dodges Shoe In Iraq.... From: Amos Date: 21 Dec 08 - 01:53 AM Second time out I made ten. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush Dodges Shoe In Iraq.... From: Charley Noble Date: 21 Dec 08 - 02:30 PM Well, I'm up to 4 and that's good enough for today. Charley Noble |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush Dodges Shoe In Iraq.... From: bobad Date: 21 Dec 08 - 09:50 PM Stampede for 'Bush shoe' creates 100 new jobs * Robert Tait in Istanbul * The Guardian, Monday 22 December 2008 Their deployment as a makeshift missile robbed President George Bush of his dignity and landed their owner in jail. But the world's most notorious pair of shoes have yielded an unexpected bonanza for a Turkish shoemaker. Ramazan Baydan, owner of the Istanbul-based Baydan Shoe Company, has been swamped with orders from across the world, after insisting that his company produced the black leather shoes which the Iraqi journalist Muntazar al-Zaidi threw at Bush during a press conference in Baghdad last Sunday. Baydan has recruited an extra 100 staff to meet orders for 300,000 pairs of Model 271 - more than four times the shoe's normal annual sale - following an outpouring of support for Zaidi's act, which was intended as a protest, but led to his arrest by Iraqi security forces. Orders have come mainly from the US and Britain, and from neighbouring Muslim countries, he said. Around 120,000 pairs have been ordered from Iraq, while a US company has placed a request for 18,000. A British firm is understood to have offered to serve as European distributor for the shoes, which have been on the market since 1999 and sell at around £28 in Turkey. A sharp rise in orders has been recorded in Syria, Egypt and Iran, where the main shoemaker's federation has offered to provide Zaidi and his family with a lifetime's supply of shoes. To meet the mood of the marketplace, Baydan is planning to rename the model "the Bush Shoe" or "Bye-Bye Bush". "We've been selling these shoes for years but, thanks to Bush, orders are flying in like crazy. We've even hired an agency to look at television advertising," he said. Zaidi has been in custody since the shoe-throwing incident, amid claims that he has been badly beaten. He faces a possible jail sentence for insulting a foreign leader, but has reportedly apologised and requested a pardon from Iraq's prime minister, Nouri al-Maliki. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush Dodges Shoe In Iraq.... From: Charley Noble Date: 22 Dec 08 - 09:10 PM I finally made 5 today! I'm getting better and feeling better. What therapy! Now I suppose I should order a pair of shoes. Charley Noble |
