BS: Question: Why Pack Heat?

Subject: RE: BS: Question: Why Pack Heat?
From: Peace
Date: 19 Aug 09 - 11:16 PM

I guess we'll see lots more of this, huh?

Subject: RE: BS: Question: Why Pack Heat?
From: olddude
Date: 19 Aug 09 - 11:19 PM

the guys carrying AK at political rallies should be allow anything more than a crayon ... they are unstable and shouldn't be allowed to own a dog never the less a firearm ... and why they are not immediate arrested puzzles me ... brandishing a firearm is a felony. and HG clearly you never been out of your house ... nor saw a bear outside of the local zoo ... nor confronted a felon with a hunting knife ... nor fly fished the high country alone or with a couple of friends ... if you do bring a baseball bat to pelt the bear before he eats you ok ... me I will have something that will stop him ...

Subject: RE: BS: Question: Why Pack Heat?
From: Beer
Date: 19 Aug 09 - 11:21 PM

Packing heat is not the same as when you had to do it to put food on the table. It made me feel good to carry but when it was not necessary any more I never carried again. But I'm sure this thread is not about what I just said.
Beer (adrien)

Subject: RE: BS: Question: Why Pack Heat?
From: olddude
Date: 19 Aug 09 - 11:24 PM

By the way, my doctor buddie said that where he fishes in Alaska, you are required to be armed due to the risk of brown bear attack ... I don't live in Alaska but maybe those who do can confirm

Subject: RE: BS: Question: Why Pack Heat?
From: olddude
Date: 19 Aug 09 - 11:28 PM

Beer
that is why mine sit locked up. I no longer hunt anymore ... just fish and like I said ... I carry a firearm in the high country or if I have to go to a city place like where that hospital is located ... so for the 1-2 time a year I do carry I am glad I have the permits. And mine are good in 26 out of 50 states do to the agreement between state carry laws

Subject: RE: BS: Question: Why Pack Heat?
From: Beer
Date: 19 Aug 09 - 11:35 PM

Interesting Dan.
I was up in Whitehorse(Yukon) on a vacation for 3 weeks and went salmon fishing. The fellow with us carried a 30/30 for protection(bears).
Ad.

Subject: RE: BS: Question: Why Pack Heat?
From: Peace
Date: 19 Aug 09 - 11:36 PM

When I need to carry I will. I had to twice in the past for reasons I will not get into here. Until those reasons happen again, what's the point lugging around a piece of iron?

Subject: RE: BS: Question: Why Pack Heat?
From: Art Thieme
Date: 19 Aug 09 - 11:50 PM

I used to drink vodka and jello all the time. I was arrested for carrying a congealed weapon.

Art

Subject: RE: BS: Question: Why Pack Heat?
From: olddude
Date: 19 Aug 09 - 11:50 PM

Peace
well said, I hate carrying the thing, who the hell wants to lug it around and always have to be aware of safety ... twice a year is plenty for me ... Bruce I figured out a new stop smoking method,   light one up at 11,000 + feet in the Rockies ... wow what a headache it gives ya
didn't smoke more than 4 cigs for 5 days

Subject: RE: BS: Question: Why Pack Heat?
From: Peace
Date: 19 Aug 09 - 11:51 PM

People go to jail for less than that, Art!

Subject: RE: BS: Question: Why Pack Heat?
From: olddude
Date: 20 Aug 09 - 12:00 AM

Jell-O ARt, and I thought we were friends ... OMG
LOL

Subject: RE: BS: Question: Why Pack Heat?
From: artbrooks
Date: 20 Aug 09 - 12:03 AM

My brother (who thought that John McCain was a liberal but that Sarah Palin was ok) packs all the time. He dreams of having the opportunity to defend the world from a convenience store bandit. He is now in Afghanistan (as a civilian employee of the US military) and is required to carry 24/7.   To each his own. Where I live (New Mexico), concealed carry requires a license and training, but just about anyone can carry a holstered hogleg on his hip.   Personally, and I have carried both short and long guns at one time or another in my life, I'd rather rely on my cell phone and "911" than take the chance of getting into the middle of a grocery store shootout.

Subject: RE: BS: Question: Why Pack Heat?
From: Peace
Date: 20 Aug 09 - 12:10 AM

I'm with you on that.

Subject: RE: BS: Question: Why Pack Heat?
From: olddude
Date: 20 Aug 09 - 12:12 AM

Art
hear hear ... me I run ... no shame .... it is just the times that I couldn't it was nice to have it ... I like the whole avoidance concept much better hence I stay out of the city, poor fishin on concrete LOL

Subject: RE: BS: Question: Why Pack Heat?
From: Ron Davies
Date: 20 Aug 09 - 12:20 AM

As some have indicated, the real question is why anybody should feel the need to be armed while attending a town hall meeting or other occasion to hear your elected representative.   I wouldn't take any guns away ( except the assault weapons)--that's just what they want, so they can say "Obama's storm troopers are on the loose".   But I'd take down their ID, including address. And send them home. If they don't want to go home, I'd have somebody monitor them every minute they are close to the meeting.

And I sure as hell would not let them into the meeting.   Just by showing up armed, they have shown how stable they are.   Not likely to contribute constructively.

Subject: RE: BS: Question: Why Pack Heat?
From: Peace
Date: 20 Aug 09 - 12:22 AM

"You can't go around randoming shooting animals that you are afraid of up in the Rockies."

No one suggested that. Certainly neither of those guys.

Subject: RE: BS: Question: Why Pack Heat?
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 20 Aug 09 - 12:32 AM

66 posts! My, My.

To repeat, the guy was carrying an AR-15; the AK-47, an automatic weapon, cannot be sold to civilians.

I agree, anyone who goes to a political or other meeting with a lethal weapon should be arrested.
Leave your gun at the door, pardner, was the old injunction.

Subject: RE: BS: Question: Why Pack Heat?
From: Ebbie
Date: 20 Aug 09 - 01:12 AM

Old Dude, I don't know of any such rule in Alaska, although I know that many park rangers believe everyone should who has any experience with firearms. At least some rangers are of the opinion that bear spray simply angers a bear and that a gun is the only answer. I know of one case where some park rangers 'maced' a bear and then a few hundred yards down the "road" found that the bear was stalking them. So I dunno.

I know of another ranger (I used to work for Alaska State Parks) who believes that hardly ever should a person carry a rifle in the wild- "You walk different when you got a gun," he said.

In Alaska, even in urban areas, we have a lot of bears. In downtown Juneau we almost entirely have black bears but there are some big brownies in the valley less than 10 miles away.

In the for what it's worth department: The official advice to survive bear attack used to be to go into the fetal position and clasping your hands in the back of your neck.

They still advise that for the browns but they have changed their minds about the black bears, instead advising everybody to fight back, making yourself as big and threatening as possible and making as much noise as you can.

The reason, they say, is that the black bear may in the midst of its attack suddenly think of you as dinner.

Subject: RE: BS: Question: Why Pack Heat?
From: Peace
Date: 20 Aug 09 - 01:16 AM

The same advice is given by our park rangers, too, Eb.

Subject: RE: BS: Question: Why Pack Heat?
From: Peace
Date: 20 Aug 09 - 01:23 AM

Happiness is . . . .

Subject: RE: BS: Question: Why Pack Heat?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 20 Aug 09 - 01:43 AM

During the twenty-five years I worked as a Federal investigator, I was armed with a black ballpoint pen and a black leatherbound notebook. Kept me safe all those years. People got really nervous when I wrote their names down.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Question: Why Pack Heat?
From: eddie1
Date: 20 Aug 09 - 01:47 AM

You can always kill two birds with one stone (or something like that!)

http://cooldiscountinstruments.com/shop/product_info.php?products_id=784

Eddie

Subject: RE: BS: Question: Why Pack Heat?
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 20 Aug 09 - 02:07 AM

Public opinion was that Tony Martin was right to fire on the two men who were breaking into his home in the middle of the night - he was defending his property which he said had been burgled before.

Even when it was revealed that the house in question was rigged and booby trapped, that the gun used was unlicensed and the slain burglar some distance from the house and running away, many still protested against his conviction.

LTS

Subject: RE: BS: Question: Why Pack Heat?
From: 3refs
Date: 20 Aug 09 - 06:29 AM

Here are some stats from About.com:US Government Info, with regards to gun control in Canada vs U.S.A.
http://usgovinfo.about.com/library/weekly/aa030500c.htm

Just a couple of things from "one of those gun nuts"!
You can take an AR 15 semi-auto and put a drop in auto sear or a lightning link and make them fully auto. The same goes for AK's, FN's and many other semis's!
Another "new" weapon of choice seems to be "The Judge". The Taurus .45/410 that can fire either .45 calibre bullets or 410 shotgun shells.

Subject: RE: BS: Question: Why Pack Heat?
From: 3refs
Date: 20 Aug 09 - 06:51 AM

ps
For those of you who fish or camp in "bear country" there's a couple of precautions you can take if you choose not to arm yourself.
Wear a clip-on-bell. That way they'll hear you coming! Also carry "pepper spray for bears". Should you come across fresh bear stool, it's quite easy to tell the difference between Black Bear and Grizzly(or Brown)Bear dumpings. Black Bear stool is about the size of a large dogs, and will be full of berries, roots and smell like the fruit mash you make loonshine(moon)out of. Grizzly Bear(or Brown) stool will be about the size of a "road apple"(pony poo)and will be full of little bells and smell like pepper spray! They like spices too!

Subject: RE: BS: Question: Why Pack Heat?
From: 3refs
Date: 20 Aug 09 - 07:42 AM

"Peace is that brief, glorious moment in history when everybody stands around reloading".

Subject: RE: BS: Question: Why Pack Heat?
From: kendall
Date: 20 Aug 09 - 08:15 AM

We live in a violent society. That is a fact. The people who have permits to carry concealed do not make it so. I have such a permit, and even with my background of federal law enforcement I still had to pass an FBI check. When I renewed it I had to pass another FBI check.

The problem is, the drug addicts the dealers and the burglars do not have to pass any such check. If I'm armed all I'm doing is leveling the playing field.

Another fact: Florida had a crime wave that became world famous. Then they passed a "Right to carry law" and the crime rate plummeted. Feelings and knee jerk reactions are understandable but I prefer the facts.
Anyone who goes into the wilds of Alaska unarmed is an idiot.Grizzly bate.Anyone who goes into any bad neighborhood in any big American city unarmed is also an idiot.

Subject: RE: BS: Question: Why Pack Heat?
From: Dorothy Parshall
Date: 20 Aug 09 - 08:22 AM

There was a newspaper report some years ago of a woman who met a mountain lion on a mountain trail and sang her way around it.

I have hitched in many parts of Canada (never in that dangerous country to the south). I have never encountered a situation where I felt endangered, (scared a couple times but not endangered) -not in the wilds nor in "civilized" areas. Have used well-spoken words at times.

Respect the right to bear arms. Wrote editorials opposed to the current gun control in Canada - "only criminals will have guns". Respect those who need to hunt to eat. Father was a charter NRA member, also a Quaker and a pacifist. He taught me to use guns appropriately.

My strongest feeling against carrying a weapon of any sort stems from the speed with which one's own could be turned against one - if the other has more strength or speedy reflexes.

But then, I am still here, intact, and have never needed a weapon, beyond words. Lucky?

Subject: RE: BS: Question: Why Pack Heat?
From: Rapparee
Date: 20 Aug 09 - 08:59 AM

"If you need one bullet you probably shouldn't be there."
                                           --My brother

Because I can carry a weapon does not mean that I do carry a weapon. I can run down children with my car, too -- but I don't.

I used to work all night in a small city, upgrading the library's computer system, stuff like that. I carried, openly, a .357 (I had a permit to carry concealed, too). Yes, there were times...but I never needed to draw it from its holster.

Nor have I needed to shoot any critter in the woods or mountains -- yet. I would first shoot in front of them, and the second shot would be for real. I have no desire to kill something I have surprised.

As for big cities -- did you know that police in Chicago's Loop shot and killed a cougar last year? That black bears walk the streets of some towns in New Jersey? That the coyote is now found in every State except Hawaii -- and if you think that the coyote is cute and fuzzy you don't know coyotes.

There was a wolf in my back yard last winter -- verified by the Fish and Game people I met outside my front door. Fortunately it was gone by the time they got to the back yard (I thought it was a large dog and was going to let it out). I also saw a coyote trotting along the golf course that's my extended back yard. Two years ago there were three cougars prowling around the married students housing up at the University. And I live in a town of about 55,000 people.

But nobody packs a gun in town because of the four-legged wildlife. In fact, danged few pack a gun -- a cell phone can summon more firepower than The Old West every dreamed of...including tear gas, concussion grenades, and snipers.

The last rattlesnake I saw crawled onto the path between my wife and me -- I stopped, it looked at me, tasted the air, decided I wasn't a threat, and crawled off to the creek. It was about four feet long; I was about ten feet away. I wouldn't have bothered it even if I could have done so as it was no threat to me.

By the way -- shooting someone who is running away, even if they have broken into your home -- IS illegal. There is no longer an immediate threat.

Subject: RE: BS: Question: Why Pack Heat?
From: Will Fly
Date: 20 Aug 09 - 09:01 AM

I think we should all respect the right to arm bears. Consider. The bear weighs several hundred pounds and has to hunt his food down every day, or stand in freezing cold waters trying to catch leaping salmon. It's just not right. It's a bear garden out there. Now, if the bears were armed, they could loll under trees in the shade, pick out a suitable food source as it came past, ease off the safety catch and - lunch!

They could also get rid of a few damnfool tourists as well.

So - respect the right to arm bears - a slogan for tomorrow.

Subject: RE: BS: Question: Why Pack Heat?
From: Rapparee
Date: 20 Aug 09 - 09:04 AM

Bicyclists in Alaska: meals on wheels.

Subject: RE: BS: Question: Why Pack Heat?
From: olddude
Date: 20 Aug 09 - 09:12 AM

Ebbie
where I lived as a kid, it was normal to encounter a black bear. Mostly you yell at them or throw a stick they run away. When I was 12 I was walking down a path in the woods and in front of me was a black bear cub. We have a technical term for it, it is called "pants poopage" I heard the growl and knew the mom was going to kill me ... she came like a bolt of lighting ... I jumped up a small tree (aspen) and climbed. She was shaking the tree, twice she tried to come up to get me but I broke off a small branch and would wack her on the face. I figured I was dead. After a very long time she left with her cub. I stayed up there until it was near dark then came down and ran home ... needed a good change of unders for sure ... the black bear around my area are normally very timid but cross a cub ... big time hurt on ya for sure.

Subject: RE: BS: Question: Why Pack Heat?
From: Azizi
Date: 20 Aug 09 - 09:16 AM

Returning this discussion to the last sentence in Ebbie's first post to this thread, the question Ebbie asked was [Why carry a gun] "to political rallies? Town halls? Schools? Churches? Urban areas, where there are already security forces?"


See two readers' comments from http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/08/17/man-carrying-semi-automat_n_261279.html

Man Carrying Semi-Automatic Assault Rifle And Pistol Outside Obama Event

Huffington Post   | Lila Shapiro
First Posted: 08-17-09 01:58 PM


"Bringing guns to these rallies is inappropriate and an impied threat. Especially given the political climate in the US at the moment. Not just with regard to the health care debate, but with so much hate-filled rhetoric hitting the airwaves - much of which is personally directed at Obama.

There are very real concerns for the saftey of not just Obama but other polticians who have to contend with crowds shreiking "I want my country back!" and reciting the pledge of alleigance.

The thing is, as inappropriate as bringing these guns is, if you even tried to disarm these crazies - purely for safety reasons - it would only confirm their view that "Obama is trying to take our guns away from us". Paranoia becomes self-fulling prophesy."

**

..."There's a time and a place. Some of those armed at the Town Hall Meetings were there to to protect our duly elected POTUS. What's the rest of them's excuse? Were they hoping a few doves would fly by? Were they afraid of being assaulted?

Is that the best way to improve America's health care system?

They may have been within their legal rights, but that hardly makes their armed presence appropriate for the occasion and one false move would have left them draining their life's blood onto the pavement or grass.

Nobody's body is tougher than bullets, no matter what you're carrying - which doesn't make you tough anyway. Carrying a gun to a policy discussion event was civic irresponsibility."

Subject: RE: BS: Question: Why Pack Heat?
From: olddude
Date: 20 Aug 09 - 09:29 AM

I don't think anyone disagrees with you Azizi. Right now no one can carry a firearm on any school property nor should they. There is a federal law ... that should also apply to every other public meeting as such. They normally do not give carry permits to stupid. The process is way too complex. However in this country stupid can get an AK-47 does that make sense? nothing ever does. now if the discussion is why pack heat period. There are good reasons to at times. Why pack heat to a town meeting.... the reason is ... an unstable nut head who should be in jail is the answer

Subject: RE: BS: Question: Why Pack Heat?
From: Midchuck
Date: 20 Aug 09 - 10:42 AM

What Kendall said (in this thread, I mean, not in his normal mode where he drinks a lot of Jameson's and runs around waving his arms and yelling things like "Keelhaul the mizzenmast! Bugger the scuppers!").

My state, Vermont, is the only one in the Union, I believe, where you can carry concealed with no permit. Which is odd, with the overload of violently liberal politicians we have now. I'm sure no other state has the combination of legal gay marriage (as of 9/1) and total lack of restrictions on handgun toting. I guess the liberals are aware of what will REALLY set the woodchucks off, and avoid the issue.

I have never carried in Vermont except on the way to shoot tin cans in the woods. No need. Vermont has the lowest violent crime rate of any state except the two Dakotas - and they don't count because they're so big and so underpopulated that no one lives within pistol range of anyone else.

I definitely feel the need to carry if I go to Boston or any other big city. But there, I can't.

Makes no sense.

Peter.

Subject: RE: BS: Question: Why Pack Heat?
From: Stu
Date: 20 Aug 09 - 11:04 AM

Of course, if some bloke is trapsing around the mountains of Afghanistan carrying an AK47 he'll get a Hellfire missile in the swede that was shot from a drone controlled 10,000 miles away by some pale, spotty, game-playing military vid jockey hidden in a bunker under a hill in Nevada no questions asked . . . but if he turns up at a town hall waving one he's exercising his rights under the constitution.

Who says the Americans have no sense of irony?

Subject: RE: BS: Question: Why Pack Heat?
From: olddude
Date: 20 Aug 09 - 11:24 AM

The right to bear arms is in the constitution, I support it ... there is no right to brandish a weapon for intimation purposes. That has been illegal since the 1800's.

Subject: RE: BS: Question: Why Pack Heat?
From: Stu
Date: 20 Aug 09 - 11:27 AM

A written constitution is an albatross around the neck of a nation. It was written in for a different age and for a unique set of circumstances and has no place in a modern, supposedly progressive society.

Subject: RE: BS: Question: Why Pack Heat?
From: olddude
Date: 20 Aug 09 - 11:30 AM

It would be wonderful to live in a world where not one of the damn things were ever needed again ... I would also like to live in a world where there was clean water, and air and peace between nations ... If anyone knows of such a place please tell me I will move there

Subject: RE: BS: Question: Why Pack Heat?
From: Ebbie
Date: 20 Aug 09 - 11:42 AM

A constitution is an albatross around a nation's neck, Sugarfoot? I don't agree at all. If we didn't also have a Bill of Rights, I would agree, however.

A written constitution is a baseline, if you will.

Subject: RE: BS: Question: Why Pack Heat?
From: Rapparee
Date: 20 Aug 09 - 11:44 AM

NO town of any size in "The Old West" permitted carrying firearms, openly or concealed, within the city limits. Such was done, of course, but it wasn't legal to do so.

Also, Hollywood and the movies have done a great disservice. Check out the actual death rates from shooting in towns such as Virginia City, MT; Abilene; Wichita; Ellison; El Paso; Tombstone and others.

Subject: RE: BS: Question: Why Pack Heat?
From: Midchuck
Date: 20 Aug 09 - 11:47 AM

Also, Hollywood and the movies have done a great disservice. Check out the actual death rates from shooting in towns such as Virginia City, MT; Abilene; Wichita; Ellison; El Paso; Tombstone and others.

That's a little unfair to Hollywood. The disservice was already done, by the dime novels that were sold right at the same time, long before movies existed. I will agree that the movies made it worse.

Peter

Subject: RE: BS: Question: Why Pack Heat?
From: Midchuck
Date: 20 Aug 09 - 11:51 AM

A written constitution is an albatross around the neck of a nation. It was written in for a different age and for a unique set of circumstances and has no place in a modern, supposedly progressive society.

Wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong!

Guns in the hands of the militia (which means "all the able-bodied citizens") protect against tyranny by one, or a few.

A written constitution protects against tyranny by the majority, a/k/a "too much democracy."

Neither of them work perfectly, but they're what we got.

Peter.

Subject: RE: BS: Question: Why Pack Heat?
From: Rapparee
Date: 20 Aug 09 - 11:52 AM

Sorry -- I forgot about them. You're quite right; TV and Hollywood frosted the cake.

Subject: RE: BS: Question: Why Pack Heat?
From: Stu
Date: 20 Aug 09 - 01:00 PM

"Guns in the hands of the militia (which means "all the able-bodied citizens") protect against tyranny by one, or a few."

Except that it doesn't in reality. It means ordinary people have deadly weapons and if they snap, or are mistaken then innocent people die. The rights of citizens to bear arms should be an anachronism in this day and age, if things are so bad and people's insecurities are so great then no amount of constitution is going help allay that fear. You live in the best protected country in the world, with no chance of invasion and a military with enough firepower it can throw it's weight about where it wants to. You are scared of each other, and that isn't healthy. You've no-one else to fight.

Fear is what I see here, as Midchuck himself says: "I definitely feel the need to carry if I go to Boston or any other big city." You want to take a gun because you're scared, plain and simple. When I was in New York I felt zero need for a gun, and apart from the police I didn't see one.

"A written constitution protects against tyranny by the majority, a/k/a "too much democracy."

No it doesn't. People do. An educated and informed citizenry is the best protection against tyranny by anyone, but a people cowed with fear are easily convinced by the powers that be that they know best - you only have to look at US and UK foreign policy to see that.

The constitution is a noble and massively important document, but it should be open to question and if a consensus is reached, changed. In the case of guns, the time has come.

Subject: RE: BS: Question: Why Pack Heat?
From: Bill D
Date: 20 Aug 09 - 01:24 PM

Well, now that we have joked, offered guesses, commented on personal habits, related stories and generally done everything but answered Ebbie's question, here is the basic answer:
   The guy with the AR-15 and several of the others seen with guns were organized by Ernest Hancock, associated with the Viper Militia (Google either his name or the Militia name "Viper Reserves" to get an idea of their history. (I think Hancock was also 'doing interviews' of the gun carriers for his website)

   Basically, they were there to make a statement ...something to the effect that 'this is what it is coming to, and we are ready'.

The Viper group has been in trouble with the law in the past, and has had not only firearms confiscated, but also Ammonium Nitrate, like was used by Tim McVeigh in Oklahoma City.

Normal, average gun owners do NOT usually show up at political rallies displaying weapons...and THESE guys probably do not go to the grocery store and laundromat with AK-15...or even pistols strapped on.
   They WANTED to be seen and to energize anti-Obama force to think about "protecting themselves" from these Commie, liberal, socialist 'threats' to their 'freedoms'.

Ok?

Subject: RE: BS: Question: Why Pack Heat?
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 20 Aug 09 - 01:28 PM

Because of a right to self and community defense. Heard of Virginia Tech? To take out shooters before they take out more people. Oh goodness..it might be someone who stopped the shooting could be a veteran with PTSD. Should have kept her from her gun and let more people be shot. mg

Subject: RE: BS: Question: Why Pack Heat?
From: olddude
Date: 20 Aug 09 - 01:40 PM

Well to each their own, all I can say is 18 years ago, If I wasn't armed I wouldn't be typing this. I figured the guy would have robbed us, Killed me, took the young girls and after he had his fun, diced them up ... as it was, instead he saw that a gun in the hands of a trained license citizen who said no way am I going to allow it and decided it was a bad idea. No OJ scene for this guy so say what you will ... I stand by experience

Subject: RE: BS: Question: Why Pack Heat?
From: olddude
Date: 20 Aug 09 - 01:43 PM

and Sam Colt was the ultimate peacemaker ... me thinks in this one

Subject: RE: BS: Question: Why Pack Heat?
From: Bill D
Date: 20 Aug 09 - 01:53 PM

oldude...I assume YOU were trained, licenced and vetted by proper authorities to carry, and had good reason. Big Mick and several others are also in the category. I have little problem with this (although there are as many sad stories as there are good ones about the attempted use of guns by duly licenced folks.)

I DO take issue with the idea that anyone who hasn't been convicted of a felony...yet being able to carry firearms. OPEN carry is provocation, as these folks demonstrated.