BS: Question: Why Pack Heat?

Subject: BS: Question: Why Pack Heat?
From: Ebbie
Date: 19 Aug 09 - 06:35 PM

For the last few weeks I've been rolling this subject over and over in my mind. Haven't come up with any answers so I turn to the 'Cat.

Now that it is legal to carry guns openly wherever you go, (And that is the elephant in the room), why would you?

I definitely understand carrying when you are out camping in the wilderness (I am American, after all), even in the parks; I've never seen them there but there are wild animals out there (even some two-legged ones) which may attack a human being some day and I can visualize a circumstance where a gun could make the difference between life and injury or even death.

But to political rallies? Town halls? Schools? Churches? Urban areas, where there are already security forces?

Why?

Subject: RE: BS: Question: Why Pack Heat?
From: gnu
Date: 19 Aug 09 - 06:55 PM

That is a loaded question. >;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Question: Why Pack Heat?
From: pdq
Date: 19 Aug 09 - 07:02 PM

You can expect a loaded question from Ebbie. That gal is a real pistol.

Subject: RE: BS: Question: Why Pack Heat?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 19 Aug 09 - 07:04 PM

gnu, meet pdq.
pdq, meet gnu.

[grin]

Subject: RE: BS: Question: Why Pack Heat?
From: Emma B
Date: 19 Aug 09 - 07:12 PM

and watch out there's a smoking gnu about :)

Subject: RE: BS: Question: Why Pack Heat?
From: gnu
Date: 19 Aug 09 - 07:16 PM

Only reason I can think of is rust. If you carry concealed and you sweat and you don't have the time to clean yer pistol everyday?

Subject: RE: BS: Question: Why Pack Heat?
From: gnu
Date: 19 Aug 09 - 07:17 PM

Good one, EB.

Subject: RE: BS: Question: Why Pack Heat?
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 19 Aug 09 - 07:20 PM

Lay that pistol down, babe,
Lay that pistol down,
Pistol packin' Mama,
Lay that pistol down.


(Haven't thought of the Al Dexter song in years. A sure money maker on the juke box).

Subject: RE: BS: Question: Why Pack Heat?
From: gnu
Date: 19 Aug 09 - 07:34 PM

Mister, Saturday Night's are special,
Put a man six feet in a hole.

So, why don't we dump them people,
To the bottom of the sea?

Before some old fool come around here,
Gonna shoot either you or me.

Subject: RE: BS: Question: Why Pack Heat?
From: Leadfingers
Date: 19 Aug 09 - 07:45 PM

A picture in todays Torygraph of Protesters outside a Convention centre in Pheonix Arizona where President Obama was speaking carrying Assault Rifles !
Pray tell me why ANYONE in a So-Called Civiized country needs a Bloody Assault Rifle other than The Military ?

Subject: RE: BS: Question: Why Pack Heat?
From: Peace
Date: 19 Aug 09 - 07:51 PM

"Roses 're red and violets 're purple
Sugar's sweet and so is maple syrple
Well I'm the seventh out of seven sons
My pappy was a pistol I'm a son of a gun" (Roger Miller)

Geeze, ya need the assault rifle in case your pistol runs outta rounds. (Stay with the program good buddy.):-)

Subject: RE: BS: Question: Why Pack Heat?
From: Peace
Date: 19 Aug 09 - 07:55 PM

To be serious a second, Pat Paulsen posed a similar scenario in one of his speeches when he was campaigning for the presidency back in '68. He suggested the best way to stop skyjackings was to give everyone a gun as they boarded the plane. And he said it with a straight face.

Anyone who has never heard/seen this man would be doing her/himself a favour by looking him up on Youtube.

Subject: RE: BS: Question: Why Pack Heat?
From: olddude
Date: 19 Aug 09 - 07:58 PM

Leadfingers, both the military and street gangs find them very useful.

Subject: RE: BS: Question: Why Pack Heat?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 19 Aug 09 - 07:59 PM

Terrorists like to have them handy. Carrying an assault rifle to threaten the life of a President should definielybn be recognised as an act of terrorism, and be treated as such.

Subject: RE: BS: Question: Why Pack Heat?
From: curmudgeon
Date: 19 Aug 09 - 08:04 PM

"...why would you?" Substitution.

If they had to expose that with which they were born, no matter how small, they could be arrested for indecent exposure.

BTW I am a gun owner - Tom

Subject: RE: BS: Question: Why Pack Heat?
From: heric
Date: 19 Aug 09 - 08:11 PM

This may not be helpful, but I think it must be a statement saying: "'This' is the way it's gonna be."

I just can't get my head around what "This" means, though.

Maybe it means "I'm as free as a bird so I ain't listening to your crap." (And see me here not listening - ~I~m~not~listening!~)

Subject: RE: BS: Question: Why Pack Heat?
From: Rapparee
Date: 19 Aug 09 - 08:18 PM

I have a concealed carry license. I have weapons I could carry concealed.

I don't.

I think that those who feel the need to demonstrate that they have the right to "keep and bear arms" should also demonstrate that they understand the responsibilities that go with that, for there is no right without a concomitant responsibility.

Subject: RE: BS: Question: Why Pack Heat?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 19 Aug 09 - 08:18 PM

Chongo's been bitching about this for years. He must be very happy with the present town hall situation...or at least he would be if they would ease it up a bit so everyone can carry automatic weapons too.

After all, as Chongo often says, "A gun ain't a problem until the wrong person uses it. To prevent that you gotta ensure that the right people all have guns. The right people outnumber the wrong people by a wide margin. If all the right people are packin' heat, the wrong people ain't got a snowball's chance in hell."

If elected, he will do everything in his power to ensure that every man, woman, and ape in the USA can carry a loaded gun to work, while shopping, riding a ferris wheel, chilling at the local watering hole or attending the church of their choice. ;-) Ammunition stations will be placed in convenient public locations such as malls and parking lots so people don't run out.

"There's nothin' worse than realizin' you ain't got a full clip in yer gat just when you most need it."

Subject: RE: BS: Question: Why Pack Heat?
From: Ebbie
Date: 19 Aug 09 - 08:33 PM

""There's nothin' worse than realizin' you ain't got a full clip in yer gat just when you most need it." Ah, hah! I gather that women don't have that problem.

Little Hawk, I now know where Chongo's political sympathies lie.

Subject: RE: BS: Question: Why Pack Heat?
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 19 Aug 09 - 08:39 PM

Just for the girls- Glambo Signature Series "Hello Kitty" HK-AK-47.
Only $1072.95!
Glamguns

Just for you, Gnu and pdq.

The man at the Obama speech was carrying the AR-15 semiautomatic rifle- not an automatic assault rifle like the AK-47 type; a legal gun.
In form, the AR-15 looks very like the AK-47.
A high-volume seller since 9-11; Cost $800-$1500.
These rifles are not available online, but can be had at your neighborhood gun store.

Subject: RE: BS: Question: Why Pack Heat?
From: GUEST,Chongo Chimp
Date: 19 Aug 09 - 08:44 PM

Huh? Whaddya mean, Ebbie? I don't follow you. I am in favor of women packin' just as much heat as men. I'm in the forefront of women's rights in that respect, matter of fact. I believe every woman should be armed at all times. Sarah Palin is a real good role model in that way, and we see eye to eye on that one. Yessiree. Purses are real good for carryin' a sidearm, and you can put extra ammo in there too, but always be sure you can get the purse open quick! And carry an extra piece on yer body too, just in case, cos someone could snatch yer purse.

I just don't get what you are on about.

Is it the word "gat" that has you confused or what?

Are we communicatin' here? Capiche???

- Chongo

Subject: RE: BS: Question: Why Pack Heat?
From: Bobert
Date: 19 Aug 09 - 08:52 PM

Well, living in the in capital of the country (Virginia) I have given it much thought and think it has to do with SPS (Small Penis Syndrome)...

But maybe not... I really don't have a clue why a half a dozen guy would need to strap on guns and walk into a Chuckie Cheeze...

I do know that if I show up at a town hall meeting in my district where Eric Canter is our representative with a sign that depicting Canter as Hitler and with a gun starpped on my leg that I'll either be arrested or shot by the local authorities...

It's beyond me why these folks showing up where the president is going to be with weapons strapped on their legs aren't arrested???

What, are we gonna have to wait for one of these loonies to shoot someone before we get it???

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Question: Why Pack Heat?
From: gnu
Date: 19 Aug 09 - 08:59 PM

Q.... for me? Why?

Subject: RE: BS: Question: Why Pack Heat?
From: Emma B
Date: 19 Aug 09 - 09:04 PM

Bobert, here in the UK where we have gun laws just look out for the bloke with the biggest camera and lens combo in a small singaround ¬

:)

Subject: RE: BS: Question: Why Pack Heat?
From: Janie
Date: 19 Aug 09 - 09:05 PM

Ebbie, I really appreciate that you gave context in your post. Camping in wild areas, it makes sense to you to carry a firearm, or have one readily assessible.

I have a not-at-all tested theory that when or whether a person carries a gun, or feels a need to insist on his/her right to carry a gun depends on a number of variables.

Culture and socialization is certainly one variable. Another deals with how well the Eriksonian developmental crisis of trust vs. mistrust get resolved in early childhood. Yet another is how life circumstances and experiences at ages well beyond early childhood has shaped one's perceptions of danger and safety, and lastly, how inclined toward risk-taking is an individual. The last includes those who get a thrill out of being in potentially dangerous situations, and those who are determined to pursue their interests and like adventures, access the dangers, more or less realistically, and decide the pursuit of the interest or adventure is worth the danger, but they want to be prepared as much as possible.

Testoterone levels probably also figure in to the equation some way or another, but not hugely.

Janie

Subject: RE: BS: Question: Why Pack Heat?
From: Janie
Date: 19 Aug 09 - 09:07 PM

Should have written "Culture and/or socialization...." Alternatively, should have used "are", instead of "is."

(Sez she who is feeling paranoid about pendants.)

Subject: RE: BS: Question: Why Pack Heat?
From: Janie
Date: 19 Aug 09 - 09:08 PM

And "have", instead of "has."

Oh hell. I didn't proofread. I think you can get my drift anyway:>)

Subject: RE: BS: Question: Why Pack Heat?
From: gnu
Date: 19 Aug 09 - 09:18 PM

Hmmmm..... I have never felt the need to say this before, but, as I grow older, perhaps I should "trust" more.

Peeps that are "NRA" are scared of the antiguns. Why wouldn't they be? As I said many times, YOUR freedom was won through the barrel of a gun. That is a fact. Plain and simple. Read some history.

Now... carry guns in every day human life and interaction? Inane!

And, here's what I mean, illogical.

If someone is gonna rob you at gunpoint and they see you are armed, they are either gonna leave you alone or shoot you before they take your money. Do the "ins and outs" of that... illogical to say it makes you safer. Far more safe to allow concealed carry.

Here, we allow no carry. Best system, I think.

Subject: RE: BS: Question: Why Pack Heat?
From: Rapparee
Date: 19 Aug 09 - 09:20 PM

Those who pack heat forget several things:

1. They can't shoot first without being the assailant. You have to be in imminent danger. That means that you can only shoot me if I draw on you first (yes, this is quite simplified).

2. It doesn't matter if you're packing an atomic cannon -- you're dead meat if the other guy shoots you first.

3. Why advertise it? It doesn't intimidate me and it just makes you look that much more like a eunuch. Were I to carry concealed (and I have on certain occasions) I carry concealed -- not to play Rambo with real guns.

4. It calls the attention of the cops to you. This is usually not desirable.

Subject: RE: BS: Question: Why Pack Heat?
From: gnu
Date: 19 Aug 09 - 09:29 PM

rap... snap!

Subject: RE: BS: Question: Why Pack Heat?
From: gnu
Date: 19 Aug 09 - 09:31 PM

oops.... "snap" is a Brit term for when two peeps think and say the nearly same thing.... nearly the same thing... you know.

Subject: RE: BS: Question: Why Pack Heat?
From: Peace
Date: 19 Aug 09 - 09:34 PM

Hey, gnu, snap is a British term used when two peeps think and say almost the same thing, well nearly the same thing at the same time, ya know?

Subject: RE: BS: Question: Why Pack Heat?
From: gnu
Date: 19 Aug 09 - 09:36 PM

Snap.

Subject: RE: BS: Question: Why Pack Heat?
From: Janie
Date: 19 Aug 09 - 09:41 PM

crackle, pop....












Rice Crispies!

Subject: RE: BS: Question: Why Pack Heat?
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 19 Aug 09 - 09:45 PM

Sorry, Gnu. It's just that I thought your handle was an anagram of gun.

Rapaire, the assailant first rule doesn't always apply. Depends upon the state and the decision of the inquiry, and the decision made regarding the validity of the threat.

I remember some years ago, a highschool girl in New Mexico (Santa Fe), saw someone at her bedroom window (second floor). She took her pistol from her bedside table and drilled him in the head. The decision was that she had just cause, since the man was known to police.

Subject: RE: BS: Question: Why Pack Heat?
From: olddude
Date: 19 Aug 09 - 09:58 PM

an absolutely true story. It is extremely rare for me to carry a firearm normally only camping in the woods. Once I was working at a hospital in a city. It was in a bad area and had a drug rehab clinic. I was working on their computer network and when I finished two of the nurses asked if I would walk them to their car so they didn't have to wait for security.   I was packing concealed (I am licensed) .. when I got to the car they were a bit ahead of me. Suddenly out of some bushes (stupid have bushes in a bad area by the way) a very large hooded man came out at one of the young nurses, he had a hunting knife. I yelled and in a blink of an eye I had drawn my colt .45 and had him right in my site. He heard me yell saw the hand cannon and took off running. No one hurt.   The police came took the report checked my carry license and then told us this is a bad area and we should not be out late at night. how stupid when a person has to work huh ... anyway, I was very thankful I was carrying at that time. Now I ask myself would I have used it ... Thankfully I did not have to ... but yes I would have had he been two steps closer to her.

Subject: RE: BS: Question: Why Pack Heat?
From: Deckman
Date: 19 Aug 09 - 10:10 PM

Once you make the educated decision to pack, the only other question is WHAT to pack. If life around you is that threatining, then pack a weapon that meets that threat. Pretty simple.

Meet the rules ... training, license, sensible cautions. Practice shooting ... it keeps you responsible. Bob(deckman)Nelson

Subject: RE: BS: Question: Why Pack Heat?
From: GUEST,hg
Date: 19 Aug 09 - 10:11 PM

Well Janie, that's a pretty spot on analysis I think. This entire thing has really gotten out of hand and I hope the gun nuts are happy with ordinary citizens carrying AK47s at a public political rally "because they can"...and who in the hell needs to carry a firearm while they are out camping in the woods? Have you ever used it? Come on....Repeal the second amendment. I would like to only be afraid of the police and not just every dam wacko that walks down the street packing a concealed weapon.

Subject: RE: BS: Question: Why Pack Heat?
From: Ebbie
Date: 19 Aug 09 - 10:16 PM

If I recall correctly, this recent ruling that carrying is legal is true only in cases of open carry; concealed weaponry is illegal.

Is that so? Should look it up.

Incidentally, what about the ubiquitous gun rack in a pick up truck that we used to have? I don't remember that anyone ever looked at one of those askance- although it was the butt of frequent redneck jokes.

Subject: RE: BS: Question: Why Pack Heat?
From: olddude
Date: 19 Aug 09 - 10:16 PM

wish it were that simple HG ... and I don't know what kind of camping you do but I bet sure as hell it has never been in the high Rockies .so I suspect you would not make such a statement if you knew what you were talking about.

and as far as an AK ... they can outlaw every one of them as far as I care. And if you can get a carry permit in the state of NY ... you are checked out from everyone including the FBI for approval. ... so you better not have a ticket for spitting on the sidewalk ... other state not quite so hard

Subject: RE: BS: Question: Why Pack Heat?
From: Rapparee
Date: 19 Aug 09 - 10:19 PM

Now, what I find interesting is the picture of the guy with the AR-15: here's one. This dude is African-American. Wasn't all that long ago black folks with guns scared the living crap out of white people.

Subject: RE: BS: Question: Why Pack Heat?
From: Rapparee
Date: 19 Aug 09 - 10:32 PM

To get my carry concealed permit I had to present proof that I had had classes in firearms use (I had, hours of it, to get a permit in Kentucky). I had a background check done against the National Crime Computer (FBI) and against the FBI and State Police fingerprint files. I had to present evidence that I lived where I said I did and was a legal resident of Idaho. This was not and should not be a "walk in" affair.

Q: I said that the scenario was simplified. I didn't even touch on discrepancy of force, for instance, or protecting the life of another.

HG: You've never lived in the Rockies, have you? There are some mighty critters out there, and I wouldn't want to face them with anything less than a .357 magnum or, better, a 12 gauge slug. Better still, I'll make enough noise that I don't surprise them. Sorry, but I don't like to stick to sidewalks and Interstates. I'd druther not shoot anything except a paper target, but if I absolutely have to and it was me or "him" -- I'd rather it was "him."

(Alaskan fishing guide: So, why do you have a .38 with you?
Touroid: In case I run into bears, of course.
AFG: Could I suggest something? File off the sights and the hammer spur.
T: Why?
AFG: It'll hurt less when the bear sticks the gun up your ass.)

Subject: RE: BS: Question: Why Pack Heat?
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 19 Aug 09 - 10:33 PM

"What, are we gonna have to wait for one of these loonies to shoot someone before we get it???"

Seems someone does just that every day... you still haven't got it.

I am not a fan of the gun, but I have handled and fired several varieties. I respect the rights of others to legally carry and use if they wish. Being a Brit, we're not yet used to seeing our law enforcers carrying weapons, although in certain situations and locations, it's becoming more common.

A gun is a tool, it should be carried when required - as the OP stated, when out in the woods for protection against animal attack - but only when the danger is likely. A chain saw is also a tool, but you wouldn't take one of those on the school run just in case you came across a good looking tree. If you are so afraid of your neighbourhood that you cannot step outside your door without carrying a weapon of any sort, then maybe it's time to consider moving to the boondocks.

There will always be a type of person who needs to have the biggest, loudest, bangiest weapon on the block, it's an inbred human trait to try to protect our own lives and the lives of those we love... regretably, it appears that that type of person is usually the least mentally qualified to cope with the responsibilities that packing big heat entails.

As for the 'assailant first rule' - I point you to the case of farmer Tony Martin, who, ten years ago, used an unlicensed shotgun to shoot at two men who were breaking into his house. One was killed, the other wounded and Tony Martin was jailed for manslaughter. The 'rule' is not hard and fast.

LTS

Subject: RE: BS: Question: Why Pack Heat?
From: olddude
Date: 19 Aug 09 - 10:47 PM

Your point LTS is well taken the bad guys will use anything no matter what it is ... and yes growing up a hunter and a fisherman in the woods we learned respect for the tool before we learned to ride a bike for sure.   

My gripe is we have somewhere around 10000 firearm laws, and they are only respected by the law abiding.   Go to any city block and you can see the bulges out of the pants of the gun carrying gangs and that is a felony but yet I don't see police squads coming in to clean out the law breakers ... sad actually why anyone feels the need to have to carry a weapon ... and even sader for those who don't when they are faced with what I had ... so I don't carry unless I am going someplace where the tool maybe needed and pray that is never is. I only go into the city when I have to ... country life is for this country olddude

knocking holes in targets is the only wish I could have if life were simple and people respected the lives of others.

by the way, I caught a ton of fish ... way high in the rockies this past weekend ... outstanding ... and Mike is correct grizzly bears still roam ...

Subject: RE: BS: Question: Why Pack Heat?
From: Peace
Date: 19 Aug 09 - 10:52 PM

Imagine if you will: when the fad becomes more common, and the boys have had one too many, will it seem like a good time to see who can draw the fastest? Stay tuned. More soon.

Subject: RE: BS: Question: Why Pack Heat?
From: Ebbie
Date: 19 Aug 09 - 10:53 PM

"They can't shoot first without being the assailant. You have to be in imminent danger. That means that you can only shoot me if I draw on you first (yes, this is quite simplified)." Rapaire

Liz, I don't understand your :"I point you to the case of farmer Tony Martin, who, ten years ago, used an unlicensed shotgun to shoot at two men who were breaking into his house. One was killed, the other wounded and Tony Martin was jailed for manslaughter. The 'rule' is not hard and fast."

To my mind, your example is a classic case of the 'shoot first, get arrested' scenario that Rap propounded.

In this country, by the way, it is not considered self-defense when you are defending only personal property. Only if you or another person are in fear of your life are you allowed to shoot or to kill. So, in this country also, Tony Martin would have served time.

Subject: RE: BS: Question: Why Pack Heat?
From: olddude
Date: 19 Aug 09 - 10:54 PM

Ebbie
depends on the state for handguns and the type of carry permit that is issued. In most states you can get a handgun permit for target or hunting (still checked out very closely) but the concealed carry is far harder like I have and many others here.   All state that I know of require a certified safety course, FBI screening etc ... it is not easy for the law abiding for sure ...nor should it be ...

Subject: RE: BS: Question: Why Pack Heat?
From: olddude
Date: 19 Aug 09 - 11:01 PM

you cannot point a firearm at someone it is a crime without just cause. You have to have just cause that is your life is in immediate danger. If you shoot someone it has to be in clear life or death situation. Could I have fire when the guy had a knife ... well yes but it would depend on how close ... if he was within striking range of her he could have killed her with it ... but where he was he posed an immediate threat that I stopped by drawing my weapon .. I didn't need to fire nor should I have. Had he been closer I would not have had a choice none. But I am very well trained and a former officer so I knew what I was doing ... I thank God everyone walked away including the bad guy

Subject: RE: BS: Question: Why Pack Heat?
From: GUEST,hg
Date: 19 Aug 09 - 11:05 PM

Oh pleaase that macho caveman stuff is just so over! You can't go around randoming shooting animals that you are afraid of up in the Rockies. Hunting laws and species preservation laws prevent that! You can't just shoot any human being you feel threatened by either so what is that about old dude and rapaire? Repeal the second amendment, arm yourself illegally against the armageddon if you're that paranoid but in the meantime if you are on disability or you take medications or you have ptsd from the military, you shouldn't be allowed to handle guns!

Subject: RE: BS: Question: Why Pack Heat?
From: Donuel
Date: 19 Aug 09 - 11:06 PM

"If you know someone is going to kill you, wake up earlier and kill them first"
The Talmud.


"An eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth...
The Bible


Gun sales and ammunition sales are up by 500%.
It is fueled by the rumore that Obama will ban all guns in his final year.


Among rednecks/racists/ignorant bastards, there is a saying that there is only one thing (N word)s understand, then they pat their gun.


Mostly I believe that people who feel empowered by guns feel liberated by this call to terrorize Democratic Congressmaen and their constituents as called for by Dick Morris and others on FOX.

These people who would love to carry their guns all the time but know people look down on it are feeling very good about themselves now that it seems they are getting respect and attention by carrying guns to meetings and Presidential speeches.

They feel like hot shit carrying heat.