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Music: Back from Bromyard;Verdict?

the lemonade lady 13 Sep 09 - 05:52 PM
GUEST,Jenny Brampton (home again) 14 Sep 09 - 04:06 AM
GUEST,Jenny Brampton 14 Sep 09 - 04:07 AM
GUEST,allan 14 Sep 09 - 04:26 AM
GUEST,Black Belt Caterpillar Wrestler 14 Sep 09 - 07:25 AM
GUEST 14 Sep 09 - 03:34 PM
GUEST,wheatman 14 Sep 09 - 04:37 PM
GUEST,Hesk 14 Sep 09 - 05:31 PM
John J 14 Sep 09 - 06:25 PM
GUEST,Neovo 15 Sep 09 - 03:42 AM
the lemonade lady 15 Sep 09 - 04:56 AM
GUEST,MC Fat (at work) 15 Sep 09 - 06:10 AM
Mo the caller 15 Sep 09 - 07:10 AM
GUEST,Mr Red 15 Sep 09 - 07:25 AM
GUEST,Black Belt Caterpillar Wrestler 15 Sep 09 - 07:38 AM
GUEST,Mr Red 15 Sep 09 - 07:54 AM
GUEST,mostly happy 15 Sep 09 - 08:26 AM
muppitz 15 Sep 09 - 09:08 AM
G-Force 15 Sep 09 - 09:23 AM
G-Force 15 Sep 09 - 10:42 AM
mandotim 15 Sep 09 - 12:29 PM
GUEST 15 Sep 09 - 01:56 PM
Tim Leaning 15 Sep 09 - 02:40 PM
the lemonade lady 15 Sep 09 - 04:25 PM
GUEST,Jenny Brampton 15 Sep 09 - 04:58 PM
Mo the caller 15 Sep 09 - 05:27 PM
Paul Davenport 15 Sep 09 - 06:02 PM
SharonA 15 Sep 09 - 06:20 PM
mandotim 16 Sep 09 - 03:25 AM
treewind 16 Sep 09 - 04:16 AM
Folkiedave 16 Sep 09 - 04:55 AM
Moses 16 Sep 09 - 07:39 AM
GUEST,Mr Red 16 Sep 09 - 11:03 AM
GUEST 16 Sep 09 - 11:04 AM
the lemonade lady 16 Sep 09 - 03:04 PM
GUEST,Hesk 16 Sep 09 - 04:36 PM
GUEST,Dave Hunt 16 Sep 09 - 05:35 PM
the lemonade lady 16 Sep 09 - 07:23 PM
GUEST,folksession 18 Sep 09 - 12:48 PM
GUEST 20 Sep 09 - 05:29 AM
Paul Burke 20 Sep 09 - 06:04 AM
Mo the caller 20 Sep 09 - 09:00 AM
Paul Davenport 20 Sep 09 - 11:54 AM
GUEST,Will 20 Sep 09 - 12:13 PM
Mr Red 21 Sep 09 - 06:07 AM
GUEST,Graham Bradshaw 21 Sep 09 - 08:20 AM
Paul Davenport 21 Sep 09 - 02:20 PM
GUEST,Tony Five Bellies 22 Sep 09 - 04:19 AM
John J 22 Sep 09 - 05:15 AM
GUEST,Tony Five Bellies 22 Sep 09 - 09:49 AM
the lemonade lady 23 Sep 09 - 02:07 PM
Paul Davenport 23 Sep 09 - 02:29 PM
GUEST,Bob 23 Sep 09 - 02:33 PM
Paul Davenport 23 Sep 09 - 02:51 PM
Mo the caller 24 Sep 09 - 08:16 AM
GUEST,Neovo 24 Sep 09 - 10:03 AM
the lemonade lady 24 Sep 09 - 07:44 PM
JennyO 24 Sep 09 - 08:48 PM
GUEST,Neovo 25 Sep 09 - 04:57 AM
Mo the caller 25 Sep 09 - 05:29 AM
GUEST,Mr Red 25 Sep 09 - 08:49 AM
GUEST,JM 25 Sep 09 - 09:44 AM
GUEST,JM 25 Sep 09 - 09:49 AM
the lemonade lady 27 Sep 09 - 02:23 PM
GUEST,L 13 Oct 09 - 05:02 PM
the lemonade lady 14 Oct 09 - 12:03 PM
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Subject: Music: Back from Bromyard;Verdict?
From: the lemonade lady
Date: 13 Sep 09 - 05:52 PM

So now you are all back from the festival, let's hear your stories, and see your photos.

I sang at the concert in the Mews at the Falcon on Thursday night, and really enjoyed it. Everyone was so quiet for me, I'm really grateful. I was accompanied for my last song by Roger Butler (Chucklefoot) whom you may have seen as the weekend progressed helping out Jan the Van, and performing as a one man band. His rendition of a spoonerised version Goldilocks was brilliant!


It was a shame that as the evening went on, the people at the back of the room by the bar were very noisy, I don't know why they came into the concert.

We had a lovely music session outside as well.

Sal


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Subject: RE: Music: Back from Bromyard;Verdict?
From: GUEST,Jenny Brampton (home again)
Date: 14 Sep 09 - 04:06 AM

I had a wonderful time at Bromyard. Really enjoyed Seth Lakeman. The food was great and the lemonade wonderful as ever. Will post my photos as soon as I work out how to do it!

Jenny B


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Subject: RE: Music: Back from Bromyard;Verdict?
From: GUEST,Jenny Brampton
Date: 14 Sep 09 - 04:07 AM

Oh and thanks Mr. Red for the dance, my feet were sore as I staggered back to the tent to freeze all night!

JB


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Subject: RE: Music: Back from Bromyard;Verdict?
From: GUEST,allan
Date: 14 Sep 09 - 04:26 AM

Really enjoyed Bromyard as usual but I thought the sound quality for Seth Lakeman's performance was terrible. You couldn't make out the words - spoilt that session for me.


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Subject: RE: Music: Back from Bromyard;Verdict?
From: GUEST,Black Belt Caterpillar Wrestler
Date: 14 Sep 09 - 07:25 AM

I was looking out for Mr Red but didn't bump into him. I wondered if he had spoted the red recorder in one of the charity shops.

The problem with playing for a morris side is that it gets difficult to drop into music sessions (which were good)for 15 minutes before heading off to another dance spot. It's even more difficult to do so for song sessions.


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Subject: RE: Music: Back from Bromyard;Verdict?
From: GUEST
Date: 14 Sep 09 - 03:34 PM

I found the sound quality bad on all the concerts I went to. Too loud and too much bass. The sound was so bad for Skyhook on Sunday afternoon a lot of people just got up and left. Too painful on the ears. It's such a shame to have so many talented performers and have everything ruined by poor sound.

The final concert was spoilt for me by two people who insisted on talking loudly all through the whole concert, even when Heidi Talbot was singing a quiet song.


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Subject: RE: Music: Back from Bromyard;Verdict?
From: GUEST,wheatman
Date: 14 Sep 09 - 04:37 PM

Me and Mrs K had a great time at the festival this year, the best ever in some respects. The weather made it and the beer at £2-20/30 a pint helped. I thought the street / dance scene was just the ticket and the young'uns outstanding. Also loved the Flos Sunday session. It's been 2 years since we attended but it's on our yes list for next year. Congrats from us to the management, hope they recovered some of last years losses. As to the sound quality in concerts, it was on a par with other festivals, as I get older I am inclined to give the bigger concerts a miss but did think Breabach had the right balance and were extremely good. Don't shoot the sound man, quite often the sound one gets at an event is determined by the band presenting the sound they want to delivered i.e. too much bass in the road show. We came home relaxed and ready to face the winter. Brian and Christine


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Subject: RE: Music: Back from Bromyard;Verdict?
From: GUEST,Hesk
Date: 14 Sep 09 - 05:31 PM

Also impressed by the price of the beer. A good contrast to the pub at Towersey charging £3.50 a pint. Congratulations to the Football Club keeping the beer flowing no matter how great the demand.
The Young'uns were the highlight for me, helping to remember Johnny in a fitting way, as did all the shanty singers. It was great to see Joyce there, I hope she managed to feel at ease and enjoy the strong
love and respect that was present in the sessions.
Despite the cold, the weather was good, and for the first time my groundsheet required no cleaning on return! What a contrast.
Just one small gripe. I experienced great friendliness from total strangers, but I am still treated as a stranger by some regulars, who I have seen every year for the past 20 years, and have often sung with at late night sessions. If somebody says hello to you, it's because they recognise you, even if you can't remember them. Festivals can be daunting if you don't live in the area and are not there with a group. Be kind!


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Subject: RE: Music: Back from Bromyard;Verdict?
From: John J
Date: 14 Sep 09 - 06:25 PM

We had a marvellous time!

We didn't see everyone (you can't...unless you've perfected a way of being in 2-3 different places at the same time), but highlights for me were:

Flos's sessions
Wye Valley Bitter
Breabach
Butty Back
The Demon Barbers
The Young 'uns - in fact EVERYONE in the final sing
Jez Lowe & The Bad Pennies
Tipsy Jazz (I don't care for jazz, but they were brill)
Keith Donnelly
The lovely Herefordshire countryside

I could go on...I usually do.

JJ


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Subject: RE: Music: Back from Bromyard;Verdict?
From: GUEST,Neovo
Date: 15 Sep 09 - 03:42 AM

I saw Seth Lakeman at another festival earlier in the year and I couldn't make out a word he was singing then either. As an ageing folkie I did wonder if it was either my failing hearing or the tendency of some these days to sing in a mid-Atlantic accent with little attention to diction. I suspect Seth had his own soundman, as did the Demon Barbers (sound lady I think) so they would be getting the sound they want.


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Subject: RE: Music: Back from Bromyard;Verdict?
From: the lemonade lady
Date: 15 Sep 09 - 04:56 AM

Are we talking high volume and sound bouncing off the sides of plastic marquees, here?

sal


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Subject: RE: Music: Back from Bromyard;Verdict?
From: GUEST,MC Fat (at work)
Date: 15 Sep 09 - 06:10 AM

Had a great time. Concerts I did were good . You just had to be there for 'the Death by Bagpipe' finale with Battlefield and Breabach it was double fantastic. I didn't think the sound on Sunday for skyhook was bad and I am pleased they got a good crack (they suffered from poor planning on Saturday night and had their set cut by 30 minutes. All in all I really enjoyed Jez & the Pennies, Breabach, His Worship the Pig, Jackie Oates & Maz O'Connor. Thought Ashley Hutchings and the Rainbow Chasers were intensly average


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Subject: RE: Music: Back from Bromyard;Verdict?
From: Mo the caller
Date: 15 Sep 09 - 07:10 AM

We went into the Falcon Mews for the first time and were very impressed by the acoustics allowing unamplified singing and playing. That's my kind of folk. It helped that the players and singers were so good, too. The tone of Ceridwen Davies's fiddle....ahhh.

The 'Song for Johnny was just as it should have been.

And the day of dance that Sheila organises in the Falcon every year is always a must, with Flos downstairs as a rival attraction.


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Subject: RE: Music: Back from Bromyard;Verdict?
From: GUEST,Mr Red
Date: 15 Sep 09 - 07:25 AM

Thankyou for the dance Jenny. I had a good time but........
I found the sound levels too high generally, causing sound leakage into quiet concerts. Typsy Jazz in the final concert being the exception. Full marks to them for choosing an appropriate sound level. You loose aural acuity at higher volumes, and lets face it, they are all about skill you want to soak-up in full.   And clarity is their weapon (after their mountains of skill). After that I popped-in my special ear-plugs (flat frequency response) and found Damien Barber just about comfortable, but he is about visuals and they were good.

Tickled pink were too loud, and I don't mean for my tastes. I have the figures and legally it was too loud for staff (including volunteers). Maybe in future years the directorate will put the legally required volumes in the contracts. Ignorance of the law is no mitigation. The band's new line-up made a welcome change - more danceable (mostly) but a good mixture of speeds, you can't have everything at one cadence.

BTW the legal limit is 98 dBC. Punters are not covered by the law. But it is a moot point about stewards who are not doing designated duties because stewards, for the purposes of emergency, are theoretically on duty at all times.


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Subject: RE: Music: Back from Bromyard;Verdict?
From: GUEST,Black Belt Caterpillar Wrestler
Date: 15 Sep 09 - 07:38 AM

Perhaps I should point out that we (as Wrigley Head) did a dance spot in the dance marquee on the Sunday afternoon and we thought we were quite audible playing acoustically with a line up of 1 melodian, 1 anglo concertina, 1 English concertina, 1 bass trombone and 3 people on persussion instruments (no bass drum).

It did lead to the first instance of virtual clog dancing as it was decided the floor was too treacherous for the irons, so dancing was done as nature intended - bare feet.


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Subject: RE: Music: Back from Bromyard;Verdict?
From: GUEST,Mr Red
Date: 15 Sep 09 - 07:54 AM

I saw that and thought it was called Wrigley Feet

I'll get my coat..........


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Subject: RE: Music: Back from Bromyard;Verdict?
From: GUEST,mostly happy
Date: 15 Sep 09 - 08:26 AM

Had a great time in the whole. Friendly , good beer (lots in my case!)and lots of good music. Must take issue with Mr Red. I don't think the artists have much control over how loud they are or how good the sound quality is. I went to see Skyhook twice on Sunday.
The sound on the main stage was good, not too loud and well balanced. The band were very entertaining and played some truly beautiful music despite complaining about the early hour! I enjoyed it so much I went to see them again in the Arts Centre in the afternoon and the sound was awful. Lots of feedback and nasty buzzes and whines. Can't see how that's the band's fault. I'm afraid I was one of those who got up and left.
I also really enjoyed Tipsy Jazz, Breabach and Crucible (3 very different acts)


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Subject: RE: Music: Back from Bromyard;Verdict?
From: muppitz
Date: 15 Sep 09 - 09:08 AM

The placement of marquees at Bromyard has a little to do with sound overspill, I didn't make it to the arts centre at all so I couldn't comment but I did find that the dance tent was far too loud, it did at times spill over into the main marquee and yes, Seth Lakeman does come with his own soundman. You tend to find that the 'bigger' acts bring their own and the volume gets cranked up.

But, so as to balance it out, here are my highlights(!):
Faustus
the Young 'Uns
The good weather
Roy Bailey
Crucible

I didn't get to see much else though, but what I saw was great INCLUDING the sound!

And I must pay some homage to Darren on the site crew who rescued me with a brew on Friday morning after a few too many beverages the night before!

muppitz
x


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Subject: RE: Music: Back from Bromyard;Verdict?
From: G-Force
Date: 15 Sep 09 - 09:23 AM

I agree with Mr Red. Too loud and all clarity disappears. During Damien Barber I stuffed my fingers deep into my ears and suddenly I could actually hear what he was singing. Unfortunately it doesn't your body vibrating in sympathy with the bass.


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Subject: RE: Music: Back from Bromyard;Verdict?
From: G-Force
Date: 15 Sep 09 - 10:42 AM

Also, isn't it odd that different acts on the same bill can sound so different. In the Arts Centre, Daves Bordewey and Young sounded frightful, but the next act (4square) sounded pretty well perfect (and what a great band!). Maybe it's down to what equipment they're each using, or maybe the soundmen work shifts.


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Subject: RE: Music: Back from Bromyard;Verdict?
From: mandotim
Date: 15 Sep 09 - 12:29 PM

I wasn't at Bromyard, but I've been at a few festivals this year. I do sound work as well as performing, and one thing that strikes me is the problem of poor microphone technique from many performers. This means the sound person is struggling to make the vocals audible, having to use too much gain on the mikes and running on the ragged edge of feedback from the stage monitors. Another problem is performers who insist on using powerful backline amplifiers, which causes further imbalances. Please don't assume that poor sound is always the responsibility of the sound desk people. They can only work with what the performer gives them, and this too often includes dodgy mike technique and poor quality pickups in string instruments. Good sound usually comes from a working partnership between performer and technician.
Tim


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Subject: RE: Music: Back from Bromyard;Verdict?
From: GUEST
Date: 15 Sep 09 - 01:56 PM

Tim writes; 'Good sound usually comes from a working partnership between performer and technician.'
Too right! Trouble is, as a performer you spend loads of anguished hours perfecting your material only to have a soundman stuff it up. The question is, do you actually need a microphone at all? Folk music is a music of domestic context and the microphone is a modern addition.


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Subject: RE: Music: Back from Bromyard;Verdict?
From: Tim Leaning
Date: 15 Sep 09 - 02:40 PM

Nothing to do with folk at all but in my rock concert going days
It was always noticeable how the the sound improved in both volume and clarity as the evening worked through all the lesser band son the bill to the main act.


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Subject: RE: Music: Back from Bromyard;Verdict?
From: the lemonade lady
Date: 15 Sep 09 - 04:25 PM

It's this volume thing again. Shrewsbury and now Bromyard.

When I was singing in the Mews at the Falcon on Thursday night it was amplified. Mr Red, you were there when I started off my set from my seat. Could I be heard unamplified? What difference did it make when I got to the stage? Just wondered.   I felt that when the sound check was being done, it was too loud at that point, but was advised that it would be ok when the room was full of bodies. I don't know how I sounded at all, there was a bit of fold back but not much.

I agree with Mo the Caller about not needing amps in the Mews, actually.

Sal


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Subject: RE: Music: Back from Bromyard;Verdict?
From: GUEST,Jenny Brampton
Date: 15 Sep 09 - 04:58 PM

Ah ha, the lemonade lady! At last I've found you. I missed you singing on Thursday, in fact I didn't know you did that as well.

When I came to your stall on Saturday morning I couldn't find you anywhere. I don't know who it was on your stall, but when I asked if you were around, he wasn't very friendly towards me, quite rude actually! I hope he's not one of your employees because I don't think I'd like to have any more lemonade from him. I have to say though, the lemonade I did have was very nice.

Please can you let me have a contact number for you or let me know where I might meet up with you sometime.

Jenny Brampton.

(we met at Shrewsbury festival last year.)


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Subject: RE: Music: Back from Bromyard;Verdict?
From: Mo the caller
Date: 15 Sep 09 - 05:27 PM

In the past the Art's Centre has been lightly amplified. This year all the people in our B&B were saying it was too much.
We were in there Friday when the Song for Johnny was moved from the football club.
Unamplified and perfect.
Then again for the Final Sing. The same powerful voices with mikes that I thought did them no favours.


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Subject: RE: Music: Back from Bromyard;Verdict?
From: Paul Davenport
Date: 15 Sep 09 - 06:02 PM

PA is always a problem for us because we need to see each other. Having sat outside the Arts Centre and listened to Crucible earlier, we felt that the sound didn't represent accurately that which we know well. When we went on stage Liz and I made the conscious decision not to use the PA. I guess it must have looked (sounded) strange for one act to be unplugged but at least we could guarantee that the audience hear us and not an interpretation of us. (For better or for worse). The Falcon Mews on the other hand, was a dream of a venue and needed nothing in the way of PA.


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Subject: RE: Music: Back from Bromyard;Verdict?
From: SharonA
Date: 15 Sep 09 - 06:20 PM

What? Bach from the Barnyard? ...I need new glasses.


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Subject: RE: Music: Back from Bromyard;Verdict?
From: mandotim
Date: 16 Sep 09 - 03:25 AM

There are lots of temptations for sound technicians. If you use a small PA in a biggish venue, you have to drive it quite hard to make it heard at the back. A hard driven small PA tends to distort the 'natural' sound of the performer. As a result, the trend seems to be for more and more powerful PA systems. (Our band used to use a 250 watt Peavey rig; we now use 1500 watts of Bose L1 rigs) The problem here is that power tends to corrupt, as it were; there is a huge temptation to 'crank this baby up and see what it can REALLY do'. Big PAs are also able to accentuate the bass registers better than small ones, and this can muffle the sound or lead to that 'thumping bass' heard in Vauxhall Corsas everywhere.
Another temptation is to 'make the performer sound better'. This is really the performer's job, and practice is the only way, but sound techs often add lots of processing to the basic sound. Compressors, reverb units, vocal enhancers and the like have their place, but they don't reproduce the sound of a performer singing or playing to you unamplified from a few feet away in a quiet room. The result is often an artificial sounding performance, with a lot of the natural dynamics 'tuned out' of the mix.
In answer to Guest above, no, you don't need a microphone if you are playing to a quiet, attentive audience in a smallish room, and I would always prefer not to use PA unless it is necessary. Trouble is, as soon as a large number of people want to hear you, or you play in raucous venues, PA becomes a necessary evil if you want your music to be heard at all. Interestingly, the quieter you play, the more people listen as a rule. (This wasn't so last Friday; we played bluegrass to a corporate shindig in a huge marquee, and it wouldn't have mattered how big the PA was; the audience were only interested in getting legless and shrieking corporate in-jokes at each other. Paid well though). Also; it's not just performers who spend long hours preparing. Performers tend to do their set and go. The sound techs are usually there for long hours doing setup, sound checks and teardowns, they have to test and maintain the gear and carry heavy equipment to and from the venue.
The final temptation for both sound techs and performers is for each to blame the other for poor sound, when usually the cock-up has been a collaborative effort.
As I said, I'm on both sides of this argument as both a performer and sound tech. If you want to hear what my sound is like, come and see us at the Northwich Beer Festival in Cheshire this Friday!
Tim


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Subject: RE: Music: Back from Bromyard;Verdict?
From: treewind
Date: 16 Sep 09 - 04:16 AM

On festival sound reinforcement:
I had an interesting conversation recently with Doug Bailey, who now does the sound at Sidmouth in the Bedford, and this year also at the Manor Pavilion.

The Manor Pavilion is a theatre and in previous years had been used unamplified, but it's really hard work to be heard at the back. Two years ago a sound crew came in for some concerts but they were clueless. This year Doug set up invisible sound reinforcement for the afternoon concerts: four very high quality condenser mics hanging down behind the curtains at the top of the proscenium arch, pointing at the stage, and using the theatre's built in speakers high up on either side of the proscenium arch (very good speakers, it turned out). A slight lift of the sound made it perfectly clear at the back without sounding amplified. In the interval of one of those concerts Doug knew he'd cracked it when he was out in the foyer and overheard someone say words to the effect of "it's the first time I've been able to hear the music properly from the back of the hall, but I can't see any microphones!"

The evening concerts featuring bigger bands were more conventionally miked up but more for balance (because of the range of instruments) than power.

It's transformed the theatre into a very useful festival venue - the place was packed and its the largest space Sidmouth has after the Ham marquee.

Anahata


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Subject: RE: Music: Back from Bromyard;Verdict?
From: Folkiedave
Date: 16 Sep 09 - 04:55 AM

I think the problem is often that bands sound check in an empty tent/buidling and then it fills with people, so the sound then has to be altered.

At festivals where the band has ten minutes to S/check in front of the audience it has never in my limited experience, come out too loud.


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Subject: RE: Music: Back from Bromyard;Verdict?
From: Moses
Date: 16 Sep 09 - 07:39 AM

I do hope this is not going to be the future trend, to have the music so loud in one venue that it impacts on another. It has happened at Shrewsbury (didn't go this year so it may have improved) and now at Bromyard.

The dance tent sound was too loud for the proximity of the Arts Centre marquee. I thought the purpose of amplification was so that the music could be heard in that venue. It really doesn't have to be so loud that it interferes with what I want to hear somewhere else.

I like Bromyard festival and hope to continue to enjoy the music I want (and have paid) to hear without too much interference from the 'big boys'.

Christine


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Subject: RE: Music: Back from Bromyard;Verdict?
From: GUEST,Mr Red
Date: 16 Sep 09 - 11:03 AM

I don't think the artists have much control over how loud they are or how good the sound quality is.

Some named artists bring their own soundmen in. Seth Lakeman is a prime example. He had his own man and the sound level went up, badly so according to my informants, who walked out. I am told you can't understand Seth Lakeman at sensible volumes, but may never find out myself.

Tickled Pink are always loud. Loud is their brand. Simon Care once said to me "We are a loud band, thats what we are, if you don't like loud, don't book us". I don't book bands so how does that work?

I rest my case.


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Subject: RE: Music: Back from Bromyard;Verdict?
From: GUEST
Date: 16 Sep 09 - 11:04 AM

http://www.gcaudio.com/resources/howtos/loudness.html

Sound Levels of Music

Normal piano practice 60 -70dB
Fortissimo Singer, 3' 70dB
Chamber music, small auditorium 75 - 85dB
Piano Fortissimo 84 - 103dB
Violin 82 - 92dB
Cello 85 -111dB
Oboe 95-112dB
Flute 92 -103dB
Piccolo 90 -106dB
Clarinet 85 - 114dB
French horn 90 - 106dB
Trombone 85 - 114dB
Tympani & bass drum 106dB
Walkman on 5/10 94dB
Symphonic music peak 120 - 137dB
Amplifier rock, 4-6' 120dB
Rock music peak 150dB



Environmental Noise

Weakest sound heard 0dB
Whisper Quiet Library 30dB
Normal conversation (3-5') 60-70dB
Telephone dial tone 80dB
City Traffic (inside car) 85dB
Train whistle at 500', Truck Traffic 90dB
Subway train at 200' 95dB
Level at which sustained exposure may result in hearing loss 90 - 95dB
Power mower at 3' 107dB
Snowmobile, Motorcycle 100dB
Power saw at 3' 110dB
Sandblasting, Loud Rock Concert 115dB
Pain begins 125dB
Pneumatic riveter at 4' 125dB
Even short term exposure can cause permanent damage - Loudest recommended exposure WITH hearing protection 140dB
Jet engine at 100', Gun Blast 140dB
Death of hearing tissue 180dB
Loudest sound possible 194dB


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Subject: RE: Music: Back from Bromyard;Verdict?
From: the lemonade lady
Date: 16 Sep 09 - 03:04 PM

Hello Jenny, my email address is thelemonadelady@hotmail.com

Regarding the lemonade stall at the festival; he's my ex husband and I know he can be a bit abrupt at times regarding references to my whereabouts. I'm sorry if he appeared to be rude to you, you're not the first person to have told me that.

Sal


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Subject: RE: Music: Back from Bromyard;Verdict?
From: GUEST,Hesk
Date: 16 Sep 09 - 04:36 PM

To The Lemonade Lady,

In his defence, he explained the situation to me and was perfectly pleasant about it. I suppose it's all a matter of timing and the mood of the moment.


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Subject: RE: Music: Back from Bromyard;Verdict?
From: GUEST,Dave Hunt
Date: 16 Sep 09 - 05:35 PM

I was calling with Woodpeckers on the Friday and I also found the sound FAR too loud. All that's needed is sufficient sound re-inforcement to enaable the band and caller to be heard distinctly throughout the venue.


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Subject: RE: Music: Back from Bromyard;Verdict?
From: the lemonade lady
Date: 16 Sep 09 - 07:23 PM

To Hesk: I understand. He's an ok guy most of the time, so maybe it was a bit early on in the day for him. I don't know. Never mind.

sal


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Subject: RE: Music: Back from Bromyard;Verdict?
From: GUEST,folksession
Date: 18 Sep 09 - 12:48 PM

Great weekend - thanks to all.
The Young'uns were my highlight of the weekend. They were amazing and they were very friendly and approachable off stage as well. Superb. Will definitely try and catchup with them again in the summer!


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Subject: RE: Music: Back from Bromyard;Verdict?
From: GUEST
Date: 20 Sep 09 - 05:29 AM

I really enjoyed bromyard this year and felt that the sound spill between the venues was the best it has been, I cant comment on shrewsbury as I wasnt there.
I found that some of the acts in the arts centre were less accoustic folk than they have been in the past so they would have been louder.
Favorite acts were the younguns and Crucible,although i did enjoy dancing to the celidih bands as well.
I do find that volume is directly related to if you are enjoying the act though. if i dont like what is being played it always seems louder.
Mr Red you comment on the soundlevel limits and are partially correct but it is about the length of exposure as well so the louder the noise the shorter the time you can be exposed. and as an off duty steward it is your responsibility if you dont want to exceed these levels.


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Subject: RE: Music: Back from Bromyard;Verdict?
From: Paul Burke
Date: 20 Sep 09 - 06:04 AM

Tech note: the dB levels referred to above are referenced to the auditory limit at 1kHz, which obviously varies between individuals, but has been standardised as 20 microPascals RMS. Perception is highly non- linear and frequency dependent, but is nearer to logarithmic than anything else, such that a 1000W amplifier doesn't sound 100 times as loud as a 10W amplifier, but more like four times as loud. And it's all complicated by absorption of sound- people are quite good absorbers, while solid walls reflect it, and so you need a lot more power for a big tent full of bodies than you do for a pub room with hard furnishings and 5 skinny folkies listening.

Which is tough for those on the front row of the big crowded tent.


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Subject: RE: Music: Back from Bromyard;Verdict?
From: Mo the caller
Date: 20 Sep 09 - 09:00 AM

Well done Paul and Liz. I could hear you perfectly, if fact didn't realise you weren't amplified, just noticed that you weren't 'ringing' as some of the others in that last concert were.
Is filling the tent unamplified more of a strain on the voice?


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Subject: RE: Music: Back from Bromyard;Verdict?
From: Paul Davenport
Date: 20 Sep 09 - 11:54 AM

Thanks for that vote of confidence Mo.
You asked, 'Is filling the tent unamplified more of a strain on the voice?' The answer is no. You need to project the voice rather than try to be loud. (Many singers don't understand the difference) This is done by breathing very deeply from the diaphragm. We had run the late night session in the football club the night before where the small room was packed and the problem was exactly the same as a big empty tent. However, there's another little trick involved and that's what you choose to sing. I can think of scores of songs both trad and not that I would struggle to project because of the way the melody moves.
We are what I describe as 'domestic' performers and for years the only singing we did was in the home and similar informal situations. Although we love doing concerts they're not our natural habitat and we have to work very hard in preparing for singing in a big space. Exceptions to this are 'The Cause' at Chippenham and 'Falcon Mews' at Bromyard. Both of these spaces do half of the work for the singer and you always hope for an audience that will contribute to the other half. The audience at the Final Sing at Bromyard were excellent and they did their part magnificently, allowing the singers to gain valuable respite during the choruses.


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Subject: RE: Music: Back from Bromyard;Verdict?
From: GUEST,Will
Date: 20 Sep 09 - 12:13 PM

Highlight of this year were The Young'Uns....they really stood out as star performers at this years festival. Folk music is in safe hands if they continue to perform. Their version of "Hard Times" reminded me of Coope Boyes and Simpson in their prime! A real pleasure to behold :-)

Will


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Subject: RE: Music: Back from Bromyard;Verdict?
From: Mr Red
Date: 21 Sep 09 - 06:07 AM

permanent hearing damage 120 dB

and it is cumulative. Ask a boilermaker (if they can hear you). If you can find one today. Rivetters ditto.

Now shall we talk about the average hearing loss figures as published by the UK gov? They are seriously worried (as in Healthcare costs) about the average age that the hearing loss is occuring and needing hearing aids. That age is lower than it used to be by maybe 20 years. Discos, Night Clubs and the modern walkman (and the amount of time it is used) are all cited as causes. The UK gov find it easier politically to tackle the workplace and reckon that 94 dB is a level that will be difficult to support litigation over hearing loss.

I well remember the MotorCross fraternity virtually atrophying because exessive noise caused residents' complaints and loss of venues. They have genre-wide organisations that can administer regulations so they got their act together and set levels for each motorbike and rigidly enforced them.

Folk Festivals similarly have occ events in fields but the difference is that there are more bass notes to carry further and late late into the night. If we don't get our act together and learn from history, we will loose events. Simples.


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Subject: RE: Music: Back from Bromyard;Verdict?
From: GUEST,Graham Bradshaw
Date: 21 Sep 09 - 08:20 AM

There have been a lot of opinions expressed here recently about noise levels, and a lot of decibel figures bandied about.

I am not going to express any opinions myself, but think it would be useful to bring some FACTS to the table. I'll leave the opinions to the rest of you.

1. Most festivals have to adhere to Environtmental Health imposed limits. These are usually relative to the noise levels at the perimeters of the site,ie nuisance to neighbours. Most (but not all) use the generally accepted level of 65 dBA (15 min average). All the festivals I have any involvement with adhere to those limits - if we didn't, we would get closed down.

2. Most festivals take very seriously their obligations to their employees, under the Health and Safety at Work regulations. These cover all employees which probably includes stewards, security, etc.
(This is why most nightclubs, discos and the like now provide ear plugs for their bar staff and security, and it is a condition of employment that they wear them).

The permitted levels are on a sliding scale - as a combination of decibel level and time of exposure. An average of 85dB can be for 8 hours, 105dB is only 5 minutes. However, this includes peaks which can go up to 135dB or sometimes more.

If you want to see the actual figures, look here http://www.soundadvice.info/thewholestory/san1.htm#noiseexposure.

Again, all the festivals at which I work are monitored and we are careful not to exceed these doses.

3. There is currently NO legislation regarding sound level exposure to the audience, although I suspect there may well be in the future.

Those are the facts.

G


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Subject: RE: Music: Back from Bromyard;Verdict?
From: Paul Davenport
Date: 21 Sep 09 - 02:20 PM

Will writes, Highlight of this year were The Young'Uns...
I was well impressed and thought they were excellent. NIce stage presence and good strong singing. I do think that they should try to be less 'Wilsonesque' though, they're a fine set of lads in their own right.

P


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Subject: RE: Music: Back from Bromyard;Verdict?
From: GUEST,Tony Five Bellies
Date: 22 Sep 09 - 04:19 AM

SOUND

the answer is simple, Mr Red should start his own live sound company. I would think every festival would use him. The trading name is obvious: The Perfect Sound Company

I rest my case

T


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Subject: RE: Music: Back from Bromyard;Verdict?
From: John J
Date: 22 Sep 09 - 05:15 AM

A sound level at which is loud enough so I don't have to struggle to hear the artist nor suffer with uncomfortably loud sound levels would suit me - and I suspect it may suit others.

JJ


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Subject: RE: Music: Back from Bromyard;Verdict?
From: GUEST,Tony Five Bellies
Date: 22 Sep 09 - 09:49 AM

It is obvious from the remarks made throughout the Mudcat discussion groups that SOUND (and it being far too LOUD at folk festivals)is a major issue. It would seem that the existing operators and sound engineers are not getting it right. From the highly informed and authoritive comments made by many contributors on Mudcat there must be someone(or a group)with enough determination, knowledge and money to do a better job.

Why continue accepting rubbish when you know you can do better.


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Subject: RE: Music: Back from Bromyard;Verdict?
From: the lemonade lady
Date: 23 Sep 09 - 02:07 PM

Was it the same when the marquees were made out of canvas?

Does anyone have any photos in an online album for us to view?

Sal


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Subject: RE: Music: Back from Bromyard;Verdict?
From: Paul Davenport
Date: 23 Sep 09 - 02:29 PM

'Was it the same when the marquees were made out of canvas?'
Actually the plasticised canvas used in a modern marquee resonates better than plain canvas. I still think it's a question of fashion rather than necessity. There are a lot of excellent younger performers but they're coming from a different place to the older performer. I think, talking to our kid (Crucible, Hekety and Gloristrokes) that younger performers feel that the sound system is a necessary part of the trappings of a music concert. As stated above, some of us older folks don't agree. I spent this afternoon recording young singers. The microphone makes it possible to hear them. Without it they're almost silent. (This may be why there are few young shanty singers?)
I think this might be another thread entirely?


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Subject: RE: Music: Back from Bromyard;Verdict?
From: GUEST,Bob
Date: 23 Sep 09 - 02:33 PM

Do you have the answer to everything Paul? your so clever!


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Subject: RE: Music: Back from Bromyard;Verdict?
From: Paul Davenport
Date: 23 Sep 09 - 02:51 PM

I don't have answers to anything Bob but there's not a lot of point in a discussion list if people don't discuss. Nobody has to agree.


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Subject: RE: Music: Back from Bromyard;Verdict?
From: Mo the caller
Date: 24 Sep 09 - 08:16 AM

John J asked for
"A sound level at which is loud enough so I don't have to struggle to hear the artist nor suffer with uncomfortably loud sound levels"

The question arises , where are you sitting in the marquee?
Too far back and you get no atmosphere and a lot of audience noise. Too far forward and it can be painful.

We queued for the final concert and enjoyed a seat in the third row. Until the last act when we beat retreat to the 3rd row from the back. Not such a good view, but less thumping in the chest.

Why is everything amplified from one big stack at the front? This is also a problem at ceilidhs, where you can't chose your spot on the floor as you move up and down the set.


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Subject: RE: Music: Back from Bromyard;Verdict?
From: GUEST,Neovo
Date: 24 Sep 09 - 10:03 AM

At least none of the marquees started spotaneously to fall down as at Shrewsbury and Towersey!


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Subject: RE: Music: Back from Bromyard;Verdict?
From: the lemonade lady
Date: 24 Sep 09 - 07:44 PM

Really? Did marquees start to fall down? Tell us more. I would PM you but you're a guest.

Sal


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Subject: RE: Music: Back from Bromyard;Verdict?
From: JennyO
Date: 24 Sep 09 - 08:48 PM

For the last year, I've been working towards getting back to Bromyard. Rob and I had a wonderful time there last year and actually booked the B&B for this year. Couldn't get it to happen fast enough. I'm still in Australia. But not for much longer. Flying out on the 10th October. The B&B is already booked for 2010!


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Subject: RE: Music: Back from Bromyard;Verdict?
From: GUEST,Neovo
Date: 25 Sep 09 - 04:57 AM

At Shrewsbury a part of the roof fell down in the ceilidh tent narrowly missing people and at Towersey a more substantial part of the roof either fell or became unsafe. Nothing like that at Bromyard where all marquees and temporary structures were safe as houses!


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Subject: RE: Music: Back from Bromyard;Verdict?
From: Mo the caller
Date: 25 Sep 09 - 05:29 AM

JennyO, we missed you in the B&B, but the people who had booked at the Bay Horse, which went bust just before the festival, were glad to use your room. (The Bay Horse was open again, but they didn't want to risk it, and found it quieter at the farm.)


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Subject: RE: Music: Back from Bromyard;Verdict?
From: GUEST,Mr Red
Date: 25 Sep 09 - 08:49 AM

The people to get the sound right are the Health and Safety dept of the licensing authority - the local council.

There is a legal limit and it can be tested in a court. The current sound level is a fashion and has been measured at Bromyard to be above the legal limit. There are worse offenders. I think my time would be better spent quizzing the appropriate local gov officer as to why (s)he wasn't there with a sound meter. Should I?

The excess is fueled by organisers who want to compete with "music" festivals and the disposable income those typical of punters will spend.
The simple test for sound level is the fact that they get feedback during performances, turn it down and the feedback vanishes. Simples.

Didmarton Bluegrass festival had earplugs on sale in the box office and their levels were perfect without them. The organisers run Hipposound, and they are musicians. Simples.


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Subject: RE: Music: Back from Bromyard;Verdict?
From: GUEST,JM
Date: 25 Sep 09 - 09:44 AM

There is a legal limit and it can be tested in a court. The current sound level is a fashion and has been measured at Bromyard to be above the legal limit.

Are you accusing Graham Bradshaw (posted above) of breaking the law? If you say things like that you really ought to a) understand what you're talking about and b) have some evidence to back it up.

As Graham stated above, the sound level limits are to do with the levels at the edges of the site to stop it reaching residential areas.

The simple test for sound level is the fact that they get feedback during performances, turn it down and the feedback vanishes. Simples.

Complete rubbish - feedback is rarely caused by the front of house speakers being too loud, but the monitors not being EQed or rung out properly or things simply shifting out of the alignment from which they were rung out in the soundcheck.

You can state your opinion on what you consider to be too loud (and accept that some people will disagree), but don't try to dress it up with what is legal or not unless you understand what you're talking about.


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Subject: RE: Music: Back from Bromyard;Verdict?
From: GUEST,JM
Date: 25 Sep 09 - 09:49 AM

As a post-script to the above, as it happens I was sitting at the back of the tent for the Tickled Pink ceilidh with a sound meter (I was showing the iPhone SPL meter app to a friend).

It measured 90-91dBa - that's about the same volume as a domestic hairdryer.

This is legally allowed in the workplace for up to 8hrs a day. Even then, this legislation doesn't cover the audience at a music event.

Those are the facts.


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Subject: RE: Music: Back from Bromyard;Verdict?
From: the lemonade lady
Date: 27 Sep 09 - 02:23 PM

I've never danced to a hairdrier, but it's worth a go!

Sal


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Subject: RE: Music: Back from Bromyard;Verdict?
From: GUEST,L
Date: 13 Oct 09 - 05:02 PM

Mo the caller asked.
Why is everything amplified from one big stack at the front? This is also a problem at ceilidhs, where you can't chose your spot on the floor as you move up and down the set.
the simplest answer is cost. to set up speakers all over the venue and get the sound to appear to come from the right place the artist/band and not behind or to the side of you the audiance requires a lot of processing in delay control, time to set up, and somewhere safe to put the speakers, poles in the audiance will block the view and hanging them requires a safe structure to attach to (see comments about tents failing down) the extra time alone to set up the dance tent properly like this at bromyard would probably amount to a full day on site after doing all the math before hand.
For bromyard and the current small team doing the set up I guess we would have to start on the saturday before, oh sorry we cant the tents are not up yet. ;-)
then it would need H&S to sign off before the audiance is allowed in.


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Subject: RE: Music: Back from Bromyard;Verdict?
From: the lemonade lady
Date: 14 Oct 09 - 12:03 PM

So the general consensus is?

Sal


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