Would you buy a new Toyota ??

Subject: Would you buy a new Toyota ??
From: MikeL2
Date: 12 Feb 10 - 09:51 AM

Hi

With the current situation regarding the recall of several models and millions of cars worldwide I would be interested to know how other people thik .

Why ?? Because I have two Toyotas - a RAV 4 and my wife has a Yaris.

From the details reased we knew that the Yaris was in the range of cars that could be affected.

Today we received a letter from Toyota confirming our suspicions and that we will be informed to take it to our dealer in the very near future.

I will say at this satge that we have been driving Toyotas for many years and we both have had several models with not the slightest bit of trouble. We have had no problems with the current Yaris either.

cheers

MikeL2

Subject: RE: Would you buy a new Toyota ??
From: Mr Happy
Date: 12 Feb 10 - 09:52 AM

...........um, where's the music connection?

Subject: RE: Would you buy a new Toyota ??
From: evansakes
Date: 12 Feb 10 - 09:58 AM

There's a movie connection....will that do?

"Toyotal Recall"

Subject: RE: Would you buy a new Toyota ??
From: Tally Ho Man
Date: 12 Feb 10 - 10:01 AM

Toyota Wilcox?

Subject: RE: Would you buy a new Toyota ??
From: RTim
Date: 12 Feb 10 - 10:06 AM

Always - My wife is on her third in a row, and I have just changed from my trusty Corolla wagon that I used for 13 years After buying it used. My sister in law is still using it.
All the bad publicity is because the media and government want you to but American Cars!!

Tim radford

Subject: RE: Would you buy a new Toyota ??
From: Mr Happy
Date: 12 Feb 10 - 10:10 AM

'..........want you to but American Cars!!'

Oh, I'm getting a headache just thinking about it!!

Subject: RE: Would you buy a new Toyota ??
From: MikeL2
Date: 12 Feb 10 - 10:17 AM

Hi

I had the yaris radio on....lol

Sorry for not knowing how to place the thread in the non-music section. This is the first thread that I have started and I just followed the signs.

Cheers

MikeL2

Subject: RE: Would you buy a new Toyota ??
From: frogprince
Date: 12 Feb 10 - 10:18 AM

In a word, yes; Toyota management may not be blameless in this, by any means. But this has been blown up to immensity in the media, and at the most it's comparable to numerous safety issues that have come up over the years with domestic cars. Our '04 Camry will be at 120,000 miles within a few days. My biggest complaint with it? When you pocket the key fob, it's almost certain to lock up the car doors, so they're locked even if you just step out to get something from the car in the garage. I filed down a protrusion on the lock button on the fob, but it still happens.

Subject: RE: Would you buy a new Toyota ??
From: Mr Happy
Date: 12 Feb 10 - 10:24 AM

I wouldn't buy a new car of any kind, they cost too much, 2nd hand far better

Subject: RE: Would you buy a new Toyota ??
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 12 Feb 10 - 10:33 AM

Volvo!

Subject: RE: Would you buy a new Toyota ??
From: gnu
Date: 12 Feb 10 - 11:02 AM

I buy American... sue me.

Subject: RE: Would you buy a new Toyota ??
From: MikeL2
Date: 12 Feb 10 - 11:12 AM

Hi frogprice

I agree with your comments.

As as said early we had had several Toyotas Previous to that we had Fords...British ones.

They cost us a bob in repairs and replacements.

Since we went Toyota we have spent absolutely nothing on them other than services and tyres etc.

In addition the after sales service in our local dealers is second to none.

Cheers

MikeL2

Subject: RE: Would you buy a new Toyota ??
From: Rapparee
Date: 12 Feb 10 - 11:22 AM

Toyotas are made in Kentucky
Hondas in O-hi-o
Isuzus are made in Ill-a-noise
With parts from Kalamazoo.

Yes, I'd buy one. Except we're pretty much Honda people. Of course, a Toyota Corolla wagon gave its all to protect my wife when she was hit in the side by a speeding Buick station wagon.

Subject: RE: Would you buy a new Toyota ??
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 12 Feb 10 - 11:28 AM

Great cars, just bad luck. They never tell you about all the other recalls for other makes, and there are quite a few when added up.
How would you feel if they didn't let us know there might be a problem?

Subject: RE: Would you buy a new Toyota ??
From: Bill D
Date: 12 Feb 10 - 11:38 AM

If I had money..... I'll bet there are some VERY good deals on Toyotas right now.

Subject: RE: Would you buy a new Toyota ??
From: frogprince
Date: 12 Feb 10 - 11:51 AM

Gnu, I wouldn't sue you, or disparage you, for buying American. Our Toyota wss at least assembled by American labor, while a number of the American-badged cars are actually imports for which American execs are getting their groteque share of the sticker price.

We chose the Camry under odd circumstances. Some relatives on the wife's side had a bit of a windfall, and sent us a check to buy "the safest possible car". I knew they were really thinking Volvo. But we have no Volvo service at all convenient here, I was wary of the potential maintenance costs for Volvos, and Volvos are so rare here that I couldn't locate anything affordable except a used wagon, which my wife didn't really want. The "donars" settled for our getting a Camry without complaint. After their own Volvo became a "money pit", they bought a Toyota.

Subject: RE: Would you buy a new Toyota ??
From: Amos
Date: 12 Feb 10 - 11:52 AM

In a minute. I am as happy with my handsome RAV4 Ltd as the day I bought it.

Subject: RE: Would you buy a new Toyota ??
From: gnu
Date: 12 Feb 10 - 12:55 PM

Well... I will admit that the American companies play on the fact that there are peeps like me.

Case in point... Toyota FJ Cruiser. AMAZING that it is SO much better than the American contenders for about the same price. Really - the Jeeps are like crappy tin cans in comparison and they cost the same price. And if you want one with auto tranny and AC, you pay more? Idiots. No wonder they are hurtin.

Oh... auto tranny and AC.... try to find one!

Hehehehe... I asked a salesman about the AC. He was proud to show me that the doors and roof come off. I asked, "Ever see rain?"

Subject: RE: Would you buy a new Toyota ??
From: Little Hawk
Date: 12 Feb 10 - 12:57 PM

You bet I'd buy a Toyota. Anytime. They're great cars. I think this media flap is mostly about scaring people away from Japanese cars in hopes that they will buy American cars instead.

Subject: RE: Would you buy a new Toyota ??
From: Greg F.
Date: 12 Feb 10 - 12:59 PM

Absolutely.

The Toyota recalls concern minor problems, nothing like the critical problems that caused the many recalls of US automakers' piece of crap cars over the years.

This is another non-issue blown way out of proportion by the news entertainment media in order to scare the shit out of people.

Part and parcel of the fear industry currently reaping pofits, both political and economic, in the "Land Of The Free" [sic]

Subject: RE: Would you buy a new Toyota ??
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 12 Feb 10 - 02:23 PM

If your brakes don't work properly, or your accelerator has a mind of its own, those are not trivial problems. They put your life, and other people's lives, at severe risk.

"The car in front is a Toyota.   Better be extra careful!"

However I personally would see a Toyota as likely to be a good buy right now - the price should be signifucamtly reduced by all this fuss, and they'll probably be extra careful about making sure they are safe, and about responding to any complaints.

Subject: RE: Would you buy a new Toyota ??
From: Beer
Date: 12 Feb 10 - 02:29 PM

Any type any time and now would be good, but can't aford them.
Beer (adrien)

Subject: RE: Would you buy a new Toyota ??
From: Don Firth
Date: 12 Feb 10 - 02:32 PM

I've had a couple Toyotas and a Honda Civic. All of these cars were exemplary and all of them gave me good, safe, economical service. Were I in the market for a new automobile, I would not hesitate to buy either brand. But I would quite probably go for a hybrid, unless there is something better out, when I decide to replace my 1999 Corolla.

Out of the millions of Toyotas sold, according to all reports I've heard, only 18 have had accelerator problems, and Toyota got on it right away.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: Would you buy a new Toyota ??
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 12 Feb 10 - 02:56 PM

"Brand loyalty" is a very good thing, since there is the presumption that the new thing you buy will be at least somewhat like the previous one you bought.

It is possible, however, that attention to what made the previous one you best choice may slip into the background in favor of attention to "other features" before you come due for the next purchase; so it is always a good idea to look at the model currently for sale with a reasonably critical eye.

The specific complaints about unintentional acceleration and erratic braking are "minor" if viewed only in the context of the number of reports from users, and the number of incidents recorded in official records; but if one of them happens to you it is a "critical event."

Toyota assembly quality has undeniably slipped since the few years ago when they were working very hard, and very specifically, at making sure all the seams were straight. Their record with respect to functional defects has approached a very big zero.

Incident reports on record with the US NHTSA include an unusual number of individual items, some several years old, for which comment from Toyota has been demanded by NHTSA, with reply - per the regs - required within specific times spelled out in the complaints. Toyota has failed to reply to many notices of suspected problems, and has given no indication that corrective actions have been taken or even are being considered.

A notice of this kind gives the manufacturer the option of explaining that no action is required, and Toyota has consistently failed even to produce an argument.

There is some feeling, within the industry, that the current "stop sales & production" action, is little more than a "grand gesture" by Toyota to reassure buyers that Toyota is willing to take drastic measures (on relatively unimportant items?) in order to divert attention from more common and more critical problems that are "harder to correct."

It might be ventured that the order from the NHTSA to stop sales (on some models currently included in the Toyota response) might have been more to impress Toyota with the requirement to respond promptly to notices, on a long-ignored randomly selected item, than based on how critical the included item(s) are for the buying/using public.

The (also current) recall by Honda, to correct air bag installations that kill and maim, has a somewhat similar record of "stonewalling" by Honda on the initial complaints, and probably is a more critical defect, so it's not just a "Toyota thing."

The recent "this is not a recall" by Ford "adjusts" a behavior that is suspiciously similar to the Toyota braking problem, so it's not just a "Japanese thing" - perhaps.

It's probably no longer safe to assume that "it's better 'cause its a Toyota," but the current recalls shouldn't bar one from buying a new Toyota if that's what they like; but a careful buyer will look critically at what's on the lot in addition to past reputation.

John

Subject: RE: Would you buy a new Toyota ??
From: RangerSteve
Date: 12 Feb 10 - 03:07 PM

My 2003 Toyota Echo has been pretty good to me, although I recently had to replace a clutch. The gas and break pedal are too close together, and I can't wear heavy shoes or I'll step on both of the pedals at once. Someone else, on another thread here, had the same problem. I may get another Toyota, but it'll have to be a bit bigger, and higher up, since I live in a yuppie-infested area and I can't see over all the oversized SUV's when I'm driving. And when they're tailgating me, I'd feel alot safer in a bigger car.

Subject: RE: Would you buy a new Toyota ??
From: gnu
Date: 12 Feb 10 - 03:59 PM

You have to bind yer feet when you are young, RSteve.

Subject: RE: Would you buy a new Toyota ??
From: Becca72
Date: 12 Feb 10 - 04:58 PM

I probably would, though I'm pretty darned fond of my VW

Subject: RE: Would you buy a new Toyota ??
From: GUEST,Wayne, near Baltimore
Date: 12 Feb 10 - 05:02 PM

I have an eleven year old Camry and I'd buy another. I won't buy a GM product.

Subject: RE: Would you buy a new Toyota ??
From: Tangledwood
Date: 12 Feb 10 - 05:25 PM

Certainly I'd buy another. I'm on my second diesel Prado (SUV), over 100,000km on this one and 130,000km on the previous one without a single mechanical problem.

Recalls are not uncommon in the automotive industry. They occur in the aviation industry too, inspite of the intensive design and testing work that goes into that.

Subject: RE: Would you buy a new Toyota ??
From: gnu
Date: 12 Feb 10 - 05:27 PM

How old was it?

Subject: RE: Would you buy a new Toyota ??
From: Bobert
Date: 12 Feb 10 - 05:35 PM

Yes!!!

I am a Toyota man... I have a '91 Camry station wagon and a '01 Tacoma 4WD...

Toyota rocks!!!

B~

Subject: RE: Would you buy a new Toyota ??
From: Ed T
Date: 12 Feb 10 - 05:41 PM

Buy the Yaris....no danger of the car surging ahead....even if the gas pedal sticks to the floor:)

Subject: RE: Would you buy a new Toyota ??
From: Tangledwood
Date: 12 Feb 10 - 06:05 PM

How old was it?

Both were new. So yes, you would expect trouble free operation but it confirms no design problems, as opposed to normal aging or poor maintenance.

Subject: RE: Would you buy a new Toyota ??
From: open mike
Date: 12 Feb 10 - 06:07 PM

well, since my current Toyota For-runner is approaching 300,000 miles, i may have to get another vehicle some day...it has served me well..
just back from a 1,000 mile trip...never had a new car, except as a child, when my uncle had a Dodge dealership, and gave my folks good deals.

Since i live in the mountains, and it can snow here, plus i am a fire fighter and sometimes need to get to rather inaccessible places, the four wheel drive is a feature i often need to use.

My previous vehicle, a Ford "Exploder"
http://www.1iverating.com/item/397/4/Ford-Explorer/
did a good job for me, and before that a Dodge Colt Vista,
http://www.allpar.com/images/chrysler/1984/colt-vista.jpg
back when they held 7 passengers and were four wheel drive.
This was a Mitsubishi Plymouth/Dodge product.

Since i am about an hour from the closest town, with no mass transit, i am very dependant upon my vehicle...i carry fire gear, music gear,
tools, equipment, camping equipment, water, laundry, video equipment,
and so much more. I always have jumper cables, tow strap, and other tools and stuff on board....

I looked at the new toyota highlander...a hybrid SUV..but it cost more than a house!

Subject: RE: Would you buy a new Toyota ??
From: Ebbie
Date: 12 Feb 10 - 08:43 PM

"If your brakes don't work properly, or your accelerator has a mind of its own, those are not trivial problems. They put your life, and other people's lives, at severe risk. McGrath

"The specific complaints about unintentional acceleration and erratic braking are "minor" if viewed only in the context of the number of reports from users, and the number of incidents recorded in official records; but if one of them happens to you it is a "critical event." JohninKansas

Gads. Sometimes I just don't understand people. Kevin and JohninKansas made sensible responses to others' nonsensical statements.

Subject: RE: Would you buy a new Toyota ??
From: Gurney
Date: 12 Feb 10 - 10:39 PM

My 10 year old Camry V6 is going very well. It doesn't feel as happy on corners as the Mitsi we had previously, but it doesn't balk at them. The Mitsi was always trying to get you to corner harder.

If anyone does suffer from a sticking throttle, switch off the ignition and STAND on the brake pedal. Engine-braking will stop the car, even if the brakes are non-existant, and it WILL feel a bit that way as the brake-boost disappears. Just don't pull the key out.
I used to work in car assembly, and not all newly-built cars are perfectly assembled. You CAN slowly drive a car that has neither brakes nor clutch working. But it needs thought.

Not a powerful car with the throttle jammed open, though.

Subject: RE: Would you buy a new Toyota ??
From: catspaw49
Date: 12 Feb 10 - 11:06 PM

Yeah.....But more because I like palindromes............

"What kind of car do you drive?"

a Toyota


Spaw

Subject: RE: Would you buy a new Toyota ??
From: Helen
Date: 13 Feb 10 - 03:01 AM

My Dad is a retired motor mechanic and he worked for an electricity supply company for about 30 years before his retirement in about 1990. The company changed over to Toyota cars and trucks at least 20 years before he retired.

He was so impressed with their reliability that he stuck with Toyotas until 2004 - that's 3 second hand cars over about 40 years. He bought a new Kia a couple of years ago. When I asked him why he wasn't buying Toyota, as I was very surprised, he said he is in his 80's and probably won't be driving for much longer so it doesn't matter if it doesn't last long.

I bought my first Toyota, a new Corolla station wagon, in 1979. I kept it for 17 years and only sold it because I had use of a company car for a year & a half. In 1997 I bought a 1989 model Camry wagon, then in 2004 I bought Dad's 1996 sedan. Dad had kept it in peak condition and a crazy driver wrote it off in a couple of seconds in 2007. I was so upset, and the insurance payout I got for it could never compensate me for the loss. It was worth at least twice as much because of its condition.

I bought a 2005 Corolla wagon in 2007. I doubt very much whether I would ever buy any other brand. (Probably only if they go out of business.) I have had minimum trouble and maximum value from my Toyotas for the past 31 years.

My hubby has fun winding me up about Toyotas, but I will stick to them because I trust the brand. (He calls them "Jap-crap" but he loves the Mazda he bought a year ago. He was a Ford man before that.)

Helen

Subject: RE: Would you buy a new Toyota ??
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 13 Feb 10 - 04:17 AM

An additional, if somewhat smaller recall just announced:

Toyota recalls 8,000 Tacoma trucks

Problem with drive shaft could cause vehicle to lose control.

A similar problem in earlier model Tacomas was reported some time back, but the article does not indicate whether this recall is related. Recollection is that the earlier reports produced "studies," and "dealer inspections" were offered, but those earlier defect problems did not result in a recall.

John

Subject: RE: Would you buy a new Toyota ??
From: MikeL2
Date: 13 Feb 10 - 05:30 AM

Hi Guys

Many thanks for all your interesting comments.

It is mainly as I expected. Toyota quality has not collapsed overnight and the media hype is ( even for the media) completely over the top.

As I said in my opening comment we have had several Toyotas all of which have performed brilliantly and economically.

We have a Yaris that is due to be re-called any time for the inspection amd modification. But we have had absolutely no problems with it. Since the accelerator announcement I have been trying to make it happen without succeeding.

Having said this many years ago I was driving a Fiat 124S and had been on a long trip on the motorway driving at a constant 70 - 80 mph.
I had to take the Cheltenham exit and when I took my foot off the pedal it stayed down hard to the boards.

Luckily the motorway was quiet and the exit off was uphill. I stuck it into neutral and switched off and slowly braked and stopped.

I looked under the bonnet and saw that the throttle cable was frayed. I wrapped it as tight as I could and drove very slowly to the next garage where they replaced it for me.

I reported it to Fiat and was told that this was merely a problem of wear and tear and was to be expected.

Toyoto have acted rapidly and totally to a far more minor problem. This one was dangerous.

cheers

MikeL2

PS I quickly got shut of the Fiat.

Subject: RE: Would you buy a new Toyota ??
From: gnu
Date: 13 Feb 10 - 06:55 AM

Got this in an e this AM.

Subject: RE: Would you buy a new Toyota ??
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 13 Feb 10 - 12:08 PM

Just popped in to say I just bought a new Toyota.... can't stop!!!!!!!!!

Subject: RE: Would you buy a new Toyota ??
From: Donuel
Date: 13 Feb 10 - 12:36 PM

Just because a car won't stop properly or go properly does not mean you should not buy it. We buy a lot of dangerous crap.

My car was made by a company that is now banckrupt, but the brakes and throttle do work while the windows and cigarette lighters do not.

If its not one thing its another.

Subject: RE: Would you buy a new Toyota ??
From: Bobert
Date: 13 Feb 10 - 01:09 PM

I sniff a conspiracy here... I mean, over the years other car makers have put out some very unsafe cars and never got this much bad PR... How many people burned up in Pinholes??? How many burn up each year in Chevy trucks??? Remember the Audi that folks said accelerated by itself??? If you have ever worked in a new car service department you'd be amazed by the number of bulletins and recalls there are for messed up stuff...

Jus' MO, of course...

B~

Subject: RE: Would you buy a new Toyota ??
From: mousethief
Date: 13 Feb 10 - 02:22 PM

Also we must keep in mind that Toyota's mistakes are going to be multiplied because they sell so many cars. If you look at recallable errors per model per year, the difference might not be as great, but by looking at units recalled, Toyota is going to look far worse because they sell far more units per model per year.

O..O
=o=

(That said, I'm a Honda man myself, but I've never seen more rapturous car owners than for Toyota and Honda -- you just don't find Chevy owners rhapsodizing about multiple generations of Chevies without any problems or worries. At least I haven't. Nor has Consumer Reports.)

Subject: RE: Would you buy a new Toyota ??
From: Gurney
Date: 13 Feb 10 - 02:25 PM

The driveshaft problem that JohniK speaks of: My son points out that Ford and Mazda have it, too, but that they are NOT doing recall checks. They bought from the same source.

I'm unsure where he got this information. Probably from the WWW, knowing him. If it is true, it reflects well on Toyota.

Subject: RE: Would you buy a new Toyota ??
From: kendall
Date: 13 Feb 10 - 03:58 PM

These people who just let their car take off like that; doesn't it dawn on them to turn the switch off? Or step on the brake and put it in neutral?DUH!

Subject: RE: Would you buy a new Toyota ??
From: kendall
Date: 13 Feb 10 - 04:06 PM

The media reports such things because people are being killed!

I wouldn't buya new Toyota because the cost too much. The Hyundai is every bit as good.

We drive a 4 years old Chevy Impala and I will put it up against any rice burner.

Subject: RE: Would you buy a new Toyota ??
From: mousethief
Date: 13 Feb 10 - 04:47 PM

Kendall: report I heard (via my wife, not sure the source) was that they TRIED to put it in neutral but were unable. Things are seldom as simple as they seem. She didn't know if they tried turning the key off.

O..O
=o=

Subject: RE: Would you buy a new Toyota ??
From: gnu
Date: 13 Feb 10 - 04:54 PM

On most new cars, you have to depress the brake pedal to shift gears between forward, neutral and reverse. No?

Subject: RE: Would you buy a new Toyota ??
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 13 Feb 10 - 05:28 PM

Gurney -

Member, (emeritis now), SAE International, 50+ years.

I get monthly magazines and direct email news from about the most authoritative international industry "sources" around. I read what other "public" sources say, including WWW sources that I've found reasonably reliable; but check directly with NHTSA and CPSA reports when supporting information seems needed. I generally track insurance industry reports, but give them somewhat less credence than some others. I don't do blogs or "user postings" as a source of information.

I don't consider, and haven't said I consider, the recent Toyota, Honda, or Ford actions discussed in this thread to be particularly signficant, or that they are any reason not to consider Toyota a viable choice; but the NHTSA confirms that Toyota has, recently, been one of the "least responsive" to a range of significant complaints by NHTSA when they have been informed of reports of failures that should be investigated. They have simply "not answered" a rather long list of NHTSA inquiries, some of which likely do include defects that merit significant corrective action, possibly including recalls.

I have also dealt directly with several Japanese companies, including face-to-face meetings in Japan, and have my own impression of some difficulties in "communicating" through a maze of "cultural differences" that inhibit getting corrective action when defects are discovered. The same problems I found "at a personal level" are apparently the same ones that have produced the "unresponsive" Toyota attitude toward the NHTSA reports that need replies.

In other words, a Toyota today is not quite the same as the Toyota you've had for five or twenty years, and the "attention to detail" that was apparent while Toyota was trying to grow in foreign markets (and produced smaller numbers of vehicles in fewer factories) is no longer something that can be automatically - and blindly - assumed.

There is some indication that Toyota recognizes a deterioration in the efficiency of their production and quality control systems. Speaking with respect to the US market, one "senior executive," (speaking anonyously, of course, but identifiable if you know the context) recently stated "We did better when we were Number 2." A different(?) one (also speaking anonymously but probably identifiable) recently stated "We would rather be Number 2."

(Blunt statements like the above two are considered "impolite" within Japanese companies. Perhaps one should say "former senior executive" but I haven't seen a documented "reaction" - yet - by Toyota.)

As their market share has increased, especially in the US, Toyota has benefited from "economies of scale;" but has now reached the point of recognizing the "diseconomies of scale" that result from being "unmanageably too big." This has been a problem for (most) US makers for some time, and ineffective "reorganizations" have been a common - but questionably useful - remedy. One might expect something similar from Toyota, although they're unlikely to publicly explain what might be happening "inside" the company.

Giving someone within Toyota the permission and authority to answer the outstanding Notices of Concern from the NHTSA would be a good place to start, but seems unlikely within what I've seen (personally) of Japanese "business culture."

John

Subject: RE: Would you buy a new Toyota ??
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 13 Feb 10 - 05:56 PM

"The car behind is a Toyota"

Oh, F**********8*****************!"





Would you buy a new Toyota ??
From: TwickFolk - PM
Date: 12 Feb 10 - 09:58 AM

There's a movie connection....will that do?

"Toyotal Recall" <<<<

Gerry, you should win a prize for *that* one! I'm rolling down here in Devon...absolutely rolling around..so funny!

Subject: RE: Would you buy a new Toyota ??
From: Gurney
Date: 13 Feb 10 - 08:14 PM

JohniK, a very interesting post. At one time, I had some dealings with Honda, as they were expanding into foreign assembly, and found the same reluctance to acknowledge there was any fault whatsoever within the company or with the product. The exception was the most senior engineer, who had spent time in America.

Kendall, we looked at a Hyundai, but I decided I'd prefer to live without the interior decor.

Gnu. Yes. Found those sort of tricks in a car we were trying to jumpstart. Couldn't turn the ignition switch, couldn't disengage Park. Couldn't get it to where we could reach it. Had to remove and recharge the battery. And the alarm didn't like that!

I remember a story where a lady of small stature, who'd run out of fuel, coasted down a hill to the station. She'd never driven a car without power brakes and steering, and wasn't strong enough to do a job of it. Took out all the pumps.
Maybe an urban legend.

Subject: RE: Would you buy a new Toyota ??
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 13 Feb 10 - 09:51 PM

Perhaps of interest:

A New Toyota Promise

It may not be easy for everyone to read between the lines, but maybe they're promising to open the mail and start answering questions?

John

Subject: RE: Would you buy a new Toyota ??
From: Tangledwood
Date: 13 Feb 10 - 10:00 PM

Found those sort of tricks in a car we were trying to jumpstart. Couldn't turn the ignition switch, couldn't disengage Park.

The Prado has an over-ride switch near the gear shift that enables the shift to be moved if there is no electrical power. Don't know about the other Toyota models.

It is possible to shift from drive to neutral without touching the brakes.

In older cars it was very dangerous to turn the key off while moving as there was a likelihood of engaging the steering lock. That's not possible now unless park is selected.

Subject: RE: Would you buy a new Toyota ??
From: EBarnacle
Date: 13 Feb 10 - 11:02 PM

Of course I would. Almost every vehicle gets recalled at least once. My 10 year old Ford Windstar just had a recall relating to the cruise control. The more elctronic vehicles become, the less reliable they become and the more vulnerable they become. This Fall, I was driving a rented KIA Sedona and the electronic linkage between the fuel pedal and the fuel injection failed. I limped the vehicle back to the lot [15 miles] at idle and got it exchanged.

Lady Hillary and I have two Toyotas. One is an '81 Celica GT which is available to movies and similar uses. The other is a '91 MR2 which, after 160,000 miles just got a new engine and enough bodywork to make it look new. A couple of years ago, we replaced the struts and lowered the car by an inch. Between the new drive train and new suspension "MR 2" is a really hot machine. We may play with the gearing next.

The problem is not with Toyota or with Citroen/Peugot. It is with the Chinese. Getting anything manufactured in China is a crapshoot. The company I am with tried to get components made in China. They agree to your specifications, take your money and take any shortcuts they wish as soon as you are out of sight.

As long as lack the same business ethics the rest of the world has, they can manufacture anything cheaper than anyone else. They do, however, have problems with quality and will continue to do so. This may be the salvation of the rest of the world.

Subject: RE: Would you buy a new Toyota ??
From: MikeL2
Date: 14 Feb 10 - 05:44 AM

Hi tangle wood

< " In older cars it was very dangerous to turn the key off while moving as there was a likelihood of engaging the steering lock. That's not possible now unless park is selected.">

You are right of course. The Fiat 124S that I had an accelerator problem with.I did turn off the engine not knowing about the potential problem that I could have had.

I didn't have any problem then but I did have problems with it afterwards on a trip to London. I had stopped at a motorway service staion and when I tried to start my onward journey I couldn't release the steering lock. I had to have the AA come and disable the lock for me.

Best engine I ever had in a car but the worst bodywork. The mechanic where I used to get my cars serviced told me that Fiat engines are like Italian wives - they need flogging hard and often.    lol


cheers

MikeL2

Subject: RE: Would you buy a new Toyota ??
From: kendall
Date: 14 Feb 10 - 04:38 PM

Toyota is a victim of its own success. Too much demand, not enough supply. They are still great cars, but there are others just as good. You pay for the name.

Subject: RE: Would you buy a new Toyota ??
From: kendall
Date: 14 Feb 10 - 04:40 PM

There is no such thing as an America car anyway. My '06 Impala was made in Canada.

Subject: RE: Would you buy a new Toyota ??
From: Donuel
Date: 14 Feb 10 - 06:40 PM

I don't buy into a conspiracy designed to sell more American cars.
What I see is the fact that this is the largest recall ever undertaken by an international car manufacturer.

I also see foot dragging by Toyota going for the least possible fix by first blaming floor mats then blaming a flexible pedal now being "reinforced" with a postage stamp size metal shim and a reluctance to even address the various braking problems.
The real acceleration problem may involve electronic relays interfacing with cruise control and a host of totally seperate brake problems.

The accusation of today's Toyota of being 'complaint deaf' is well founded. The Toyota response from the top down is now promising but remains to be proven ewffective.

The 9-11 call recording of a driver with 3 passengers in an out of control accelerating Toyota, just prior to all 4 people being killed is one of the most haunting "black box" type recordings I have ever heard.

Subject: RE: Would you buy a new Toyota ??
From: Herga Kitty
Date: 14 Feb 10 - 07:05 PM

It was reported on the latest BBC Radio 4 news quiz that a driving test examiner refused to test a candidate who was driving a Toyota...!

Kitty

Subject: RE: Would you buy a new Toyota ??
From: Tangledwood
Date: 14 Feb 10 - 11:55 PM

Hi MikeL2, your experience with Fiat sounds similar to mine with an Alfa Sud many moons ago. That thing could really fly on a 1200cc engine, but rust!   I got some removed from around the windscreen area. A new windscreen rubber seal had to be flown out from Italy. Wouldn't you think that would be an item in frequent enough demand to keep a stock in the country?

Subject: RE: Would you buy a new Toyota ??
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 15 Feb 10 - 02:23 PM

Some other names now are offering an "upgrade bonus" in the vicinity of an extra $1,000 discount if you trade in a Toyota on their brand.

Toyota reportedly has met that with a "loyalty bonus" of $1,000 if you trade in an old Toyota for a new one.

Toyota is rumored to be considering an additional ~$1,000 "competitive bonus" in an attempt to stimulate sales. This bonus may not appear until the "patches" for current recalls are firm.

There is also talk of improvements in warranties (to as much as 5 years or 100,000 miles) and a "free maintenance" warranty (labor only?) for all services recommended during the warranty period.

A very few bullish investors are saying it's time to buy Toyota stock "while they're near the bottom." (???)

New advertising campaigns are obviously needed, and suggestions for new "tag lines" are all over the place:

"TOYOTA - JUST TRY AND STOP US"

"TOYOTA - THE LAST CAR YOU'LL EVER BUY"

(No confirmation from Toyota on most likely ad changes as yet, so stay tuned.)

John

Subject: RE: Would you buy a new Toyota ??
From: MikeL2
Date: 15 Feb 10 - 02:57 PM

hi tangle wood

Yes your description fits my experience with Fiat.

Except that I had no problem with Fiat spaeres. We are lucky enough to have a Fiat Main Dealer near us and they always had what I needed.

cheers

MikeL2

Subject: RE: Would you buy a new Toyota ??
From: gnu
Date: 17 Feb 10 - 12:22 PM

Power steering.

Subject: RE: Would you buy a new Toyota ??
From: frogprince
Date: 17 Feb 10 - 02:03 PM

Pardon the aside, but when did everyone start calling a carolla a sub compact? What are they calling a Yaris now?

Subject: RE: Would you buy a new Toyota ??
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 18 Feb 10 - 12:20 AM

What I see is the fact that this is the largest recall ever undertaken by an international car manufacturer.

MSNBC had a slide show of The 10 Biggest Auto Recalls in the US at 10 Biggest Auto Recalls. I opened the site and collected the URL to post here, but when I tested it in the preview, I got a "Page Not Found." Returning to the MSNBC main site (Business|Autos) the link posted also gives "Page Not Found." Apparently they didn't want me telling you about it.

But since I copied the page:

10: Honda
Number of vehicles recalled: 3.7 million
Year of recall: 1995

9: Volkswagen
Number of vehicles recalled: 3.7 million
Year of recall: 1972

8: General Motors
Number of vehicles recalled: 3.7 million
Year of recall: 1973

7: Ford
Number of vehicles recalled: 4 million
Year of recall: 1972

6: Ford
Number of vehicles recalled: 4.5 million
Year of recall: 2009

5: Ford
Number of vehicles recalled: 4.5 million
Year of recall: 2005

4: Toyota
Number of vehicles recalled: 5.4 million
Year of recall: 2009

3: General Motors
Number of vehicles recalled: 5.8 million
Year of recall: 1981

2: General Motors
Number of vehicles recalled: 6.7 million
Year of recall: 1971

1: Ford
Number of vehicles recalled: 7.9 million
Year of recall: 1996

Details are given for each of the above recalls, and I'll leave the link in case it's just down for an update. Some were comparable, and some much less serious than the recent Toyota recall, especially in terms of safety. Several of them were addressed promptly enough the get the fixes in place before there were significant numbers of "adverse experiences," but a couple - IIRC - did display signs of some delays that suggest a lack of enthusiasm by the makers.


Relative to the lack of response - and/or excessive delays in respoding - by Toyota:

I've dealt with quite a few individuals in US companies, and in a few other "western" companies, who "stonewalled," ignored, or just blathered uninelligibly when asked a direct question.

In many such cases, the unspoken answer was "my boss - or his boss - will have my ass if I tell you."

Uniformly, in my own direct experience, when individuals in Japanese companies were unresponsive or evasive, the unspoken answer was just "it's not my place to speak."

In other words, the culture withholds authority and suppresses free communication. Within limits, this may be a good thing for the worker, since it also diverts responsibility to others; but for an outsider it can be nearly impossible to find who's "place" it is to give an answer. Often, it seems, by the time one gets far enough up the chain, no one who's place it might be has an answer since the problem exists at a level unseen by those at higher (cultural or administrative) echelons.

I can't be sure to what extent this is part of Toyota's current difficulties; but of course I have my own suspicions.

John

Subject: RE: Would you buy a new Toyota ??
From: GUEST,999
Date: 18 Feb 10 - 02:00 AM

I will never buy any new car again.

1) You lost a fortune the minute you drive it off the lot.

2) You don't know what the car is really like.

Subject: RE: Would you buy a new Toyota ??
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 18 Feb 10 - 04:31 AM

After posting (2d up from here) a brief visit to the MSNBC "news" page got 18 out of 20 links to articles returned as "Page not found," and deleting any one of the tabs wiped out the links that showed good on the tabs. Apparently they got hacked, or lost a major server.

The site is back to it's normal mediocre, and the link (10 Biggest Auto Recalls) is working now, if anyone's interested in those "details."

John

Subject: RE: Would you buy a new Toyota ??
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 21 Feb 10 - 09:49 PM

As some have suggested?

Toyota saved $100 million by limiting recall

Internal documents show results of negotiations with regulators in 2007

The Associated Press
updated 6:23 p.m. CT, Sun., Feb. 21, 2010

WASHINGTON - Toyota officials claimed they saved the company $100 million by successfully negotiating with the government on a limited recall of floor mats in some Toyota and Lexus vehicles, according to new documents shared with congressional investigators.

Toyota, in an internal presentation in July 2009 at its Washington office, said it saved $100 million or more by negotiating an "equipment recall" of floor mats involving 55,000 Toyota Camry and Lexus ES350 vehicles in September 2007.

The savings are listed under the title, "Wins for Toyota — Safety Group." The document cites millions of dollars in other savings by delaying safety regulations, avoiding defect investigations and slowing down other industry requirements.

[and more at the link]

Nothing conclusive here, but it's been the subject of "suspicions" among quite a few industry gossips.

John

Subject: RE: Would you buy a new Toyota ??
From: kendall
Date: 22 Feb 10 - 04:31 AM

Some American cars have a hole and a hook to keep the mat from sliding up under the gas pedal.

Subject: RE: Would you buy a new Toyota ??
From: MikeL2
Date: 22 Feb 10 - 05:30 AM

Hi Kendall

Over here in UK the Yaris certainly has an hook up system to keep the floor mats neat.

Incidently today I have just received the letter from Toyota to book the Yaris in for the recall.

Hope you are keeping well.

Regards

MikeL2

Subject: RE: Would you buy a new Toyota ??
From: Folkiedave
Date: 22 Feb 10 - 06:14 AM

Just changed the battery for the first time at 125,000 miles. New brake pipes recently and a suspension arm.

Not bad - Toyota Corolla Estate. Buy a new Toyota?

I wouldn't dream of buying anything else.

Subject: RE: Would you buy a new Toyota ??
From: kendall
Date: 22 Feb 10 - 09:01 PM

Drive a high end Hyundai, then add up the difference you saved.

Subject: RE: Would you buy a new Toyota ??
From: Charley Noble
Date: 23 Feb 10 - 08:53 AM

So what really should concern new Toyota owners is the question of whether the electronics are malfunctioning, resulting in uncontrolled engine acceleration. According to an ABC News follow-up story on television last evening, an engineering firm has been able to replicate such a problem under certain weather conditions (and demonstrated what happened to a reporter who was driving one of their vehicles) and the incident did not leave any "malfunction" note in the vehicle's computer database.

The engineering firm plans to present its testing results at the current Congressional hearings.

I'd find this report unsettling if I were driving a new Toyota. And my wife does!

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: Would you buy a new Toyota ??
From: Donuel
Date: 23 Feb 10 - 08:58 AM

Date: 14 Feb 10 - 06:40 PM

I don't buy into a conspiracy designed to sell more American cars.
What I see is the fact that this is the largest recall ever undertaken by an international car manufacturer.

I also see foot dragging by Toyota going for the least possible fix by first blaming floor mats then blaming a flexible pedal now being "reinforced" with a postage stamp size metal shim and a reluctance to even address the various braking problems.
The real acceleration problem may involve electronic relays interfacing with cruise control and a host of totally seperate brake problems.

The accusation of today's Toyota of being 'complaint deaf' is well founded. The Toyota response from the top down is now promising but remains to be proven effective. A memo at Toyota has surfaced praising the avoidance of recalling problem vehicles (including models not on the current problem list) and the benefit of saving hundreds of millions of dollars. Yay good job Toyota! You saved a buck.

The 9-11 call recording of a driver with 3 passengers in an out of control accelerating Toyota, just prior to all 4 people being killed is one of the most haunting "black box" type recordings I have ever heard.

Subject: RE: Would you buy a new Toyota ??
From: PoppaGator
Date: 23 Feb 10 - 11:13 AM

Kendall's right; buy a Hyundai. Toyota has been an excellent prouct for a long time, but perhaps they've begun to rest on their laurels. And, whether their quality has begun to slack off or not, Toyota (and all the Japanese carmakers) have been able to capitalize on their name-recognition and reputation by charging premium prices

The Koreans are now in a similar situation to that of the Japanese a generation ago; they are establishing a reputation by selling quality vehicles at significantly lower prices than their competition. The current pricing is especially low for value received because the first Hyundais exported to the West were pretty lousy, and the company is still working to overcome some deservedly bad PR.

Where I don't necessarily agree with Kendall is that I don't think you need to go with a "higher-end" Hyundai. I'm pretty sure that the "low-end" Elantra (lowest price, highest gas mileage) compares just as favorably to a Corolla as the mid-size Sonata does to a Camry or a Honda Accord. Which is to say, very similar in all specifications and in quality, but at a much lower price.

I understand that Kia is essentially the same company as Hyundai ~ both are more-or-less state-owned by the South Korean government ~ so the same arguments can probably made on behalf of the Kia. My first-hand experience is with Hyundai, however; I have a 2006 Sonata with about 58K miles on it so far, and couldn't be happier with it. I wouldn't argue that it's significantly better than an '06 Toyota Camry, but it's every bit as good if not more so, with a list price about $6000 lower. The price difference is now down to around $4800; it may not be long before the price gap closes completely.

Subject: RE: Would you buy a new Toyota ??
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 23 Feb 10 - 11:26 AM

If I were in the market for a car--which I hope never to be again--I would seriously consider buying a Toyota. The car you purchase today will surely have the fixes in place before you drive it off the lot. There will probably be lots of good deals on the cars, too.

I bought a new (8 miles on the odo) Altima which had had an engine recall for that model year, that already had been taken care of; plus, the warranty period had been extended, and it was priced very well below sticker. I've had problem-free driving for nearly four years with this car.

Subject: RE: Would you buy a new Toyota ??
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 23 Feb 10 - 02:21 PM

Anyone with doubts about Toyota's ability to make great vehicles should bear in mind that three UK hooligans, on the "Top Gear" program, tried very hard to kill a Toyota Pickup.

After crashing it, burning it, and dropping it nose first from a crane, they finished off by putting it on the roof of a ten storey building, which was then demolished with explosives.

Ten storeys down, after the dust settled, their mechanic put a new battery in it, then started it up, and drove it away.

I've had Fords that stopped if a passerby spat on the pavement.

I think I might well buy a Toyota, if I had the Moola.

Recalls are part and parcel of buying the latest model. I'm lucky. I can't afford anything younger than ten years.

All the teething troubles have gone when I get 'em.

Don T.

Subject: RE: Would you buy a new Toyota ??
From: kendall
Date: 23 Feb 10 - 08:42 PM

I see they have sent the Fox to guard the hen house again. That congressional committee is made up of politicians who took tens of thousands of dollars from Toyota, now they can pretend to do something about their debt to Toyota. God, no wonder 75% of Americans think congress is dishonest.

Subject: RE: Would you buy a new Toyota ??
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 23 Feb 10 - 08:53 PM

ONLY 75% Captain?

You should try living in the UK.

Don T.

Subject: RE: Would you buy a new Toyota ??
From: Bobert
Date: 23 Feb 10 - 09:03 PM

Anyone who owns a Toyota that they are afraid of please PM me and I'll come take it off yer hands... Won't even charge you!!!

B~

Subject: RE: Would you buy a new Toyota ??
From: Genie
Date: 23 Feb 10 - 11:29 PM

Just throwing my two-cents' worth in here.

I drive - and love - an old Corolla, which still gets 35 mpg highway on its original engine and tranny after almost 290 miles. It doesn't have those fancy computers and stuff, and I'm not a fan of most of that stuff (except for the airbags and GPS).   I like manual mirrors, door locks, windows, etc., and mechanical brakes, etc.

Should something foul happen to my old Toyota, I'd want to buy another from that company because my mechanic, who works only on Toyotas and Lexuses, is that rare find of a mechanic who is both very competent and very ethical and customer-oriented. (If you're in Portland, OR, here's a plug: Integrity Auto, in PDX. And, no, I'm not on commission. LOL).

Thing is, though, I don't know that today's Toyotas are as high quality as the older ones were -- any more than today's Macs are of the quality of the older ones. (Last summer, for the first time in over a decade and after using several new models, I had a Mac hard drive go belly up. I think lots of manufacturers are now farming out their production and quality control to Pacific-rim sweatshops and the quality of their products is suffering.)

For now, I put at least $1,000 a year into preventive maintenance on my old Toyota, partly because I trust the older Toyotas and partly because I don't consider some of the high-tech modifications on newer cars a real improvement.

Subject: RE: Would you buy a new Toyota ??
From: mousethief
Date: 24 Feb 10 - 12:42 AM

I drive - and love - an old Corolla, which still gets 35 mpg highway on its original engine and tranny after almost 290 miles.

Either you meant 290,000 miles, or you have really low standards.

O..O
=o=

Subject: RE: Would you buy a new Toyota ??
From: EBarnacle
Date: 24 Feb 10 - 12:45 PM

My earlier rant about Chinese companies is wrong in one respect. The Chinese company is an "outsource" for an "American" supplier.

Even so, if you make the product half a world away, it's hard to have a useful conversation with the manufacturer. Besides, you give up local jobs to save a couple of dollars. Economically, it's a short sighted policy to outsource manufacturing.

Subject: RE: Would you buy a new Toyota ??
From: kendall
Date: 24 Feb 10 - 07:59 PM

Success has ruined many good products.

Subject: RE: Would you buy a new Toyota ??
From: Genie
Date: 24 Feb 10 - 08:12 PM

LOL, Alex.
Yes, of course I meant 290k miles.

I may be easy but my standards aren't THAT low! *g*

Subject: RE: Would you buy a new Toyota ??
From: Genie
Date: 24 Feb 10 - 08:14 PM

You are so right, Kendall - and it's SO good to see you posting again!

I hope your voice is still getting stronger (and the rest of you too) - but that's another thread!

Genie

Subject: RE: Would you buy a new Toyota ??
From: frogprince
Date: 10 Mar 10 - 02:59 PM

Well. I have to, to some extent anyhow, take back my words from early on this thread. My wife got in a crunch 10 days ago. Nobody hurt, but just enough to total our Camry. I started shopping, including the possibility of a newer Camry. But then the reports stated showing up of people who got the supposed fix, and still had the problem. If we had just been thinking about an update, I would have held on a little to wait for a clear resolution of the problem. But we couldn't sit here waiting. We now have a Ford Fusion, '07 with only 23k miles and a clean carfax report, at a very decent price.

Subject: RE: Would you buy a new Toyota ??
From: CarolC
Date: 10 Mar 10 - 03:32 PM

I retained an open mind about it until I saw the news last night. That story about the man in the prius that was going 90 mph against his wishes was the straw that broke the camel's back for me. If I was in the market for a new vehicle, it would definitely not be a Toyota. Not under any circumstances.

Subject: RE: Would you buy a new Toyota ??
From: gnu
Date: 10 Mar 10 - 04:58 PM

I have a question... can't you shift to neutral AT ALL?

Subject: RE: Would you buy a new Toyota ??
From: Ebbie
Date: 10 Mar 10 - 05:37 PM

If I understood it correctly, the man was so busy trying to control the Prius that he either didn't have a hand available to let go or he didn't think of it in time. Later, he said that he was afraid that if he put it into neutral the car would flip.

I also don't understand why he didn't turn off the ignition - which he did do when his speed was brought down to 55 mph- unless, again, he was so busy just hanging on that he had literally no time to think anything else.

In any event it was a horrendous scenario- amazing that he hit nobody.

Subject: RE: Would you buy a new Toyota ??
From: mousethief
Date: 10 Mar 10 - 08:19 PM

Is Toyota Inc. going to make it through this? It's one thing to buy a Toyota when the problem is that the brakes squeak or the rear axle wobbles. But when it locks you in at 90 mph and you have to fight to stay alive -- that's a different kettle of fish! Will Toyota survive?

Subject: RE: Would you buy a new Toyota ??
From: catspaw49
Date: 10 Mar 10 - 09:43 PM

Scuse me, but I'm with gnu here. Can someone link me to some kind of in-depth story where I can understand what happened with the guy in the "Wild Prius?"

Prius goes wild...........right..............

Perhaps he could have shifted to neutral as gnu suggested? Would the Raging Prius not shut off with the ignition switch?

Runaway Kenworth down Monteagle? ......okay..........

Peterbilt loses brakes on Jellico? ...........yeah.....happens......

Raging Prius? Okay....I know they have no key and it could be that both the ignition and trans are computer driven and will only operate under certain conditions.....But I haven't found a valid source anywhere to confirm that.    I find it hard to believe there is absolutely no way to shut this thing down or put it into a lower gear if not neutral.....something.........The brake ECM override on the Prius is designed to shutdown the car after a certain pressure is applied to the brake pedal. I dunno'........there might be some mechanical possibilities but there might be a few human ones as well. I fiound this over on an owner's club chat forum about this Sikes character with the Kung-Fu Prius:

1. He sounded extremely distraught and incoherent for 23 minutes on the 911 tape. Yet, he regained his composure remarkably quickly. Reported by 10 News, he appeared at a news conference quickly after the freeway incident Monday and also spoke to reporters Tuesday at his Toyota dealership, where his car was towed. He appeared to be very comfortable during these TV interviews. I don't know any normal person who could appear that comfortable on TV after a 23-minute long harrowing, death-defying experience.

2. He won the $55,000 in the lottery and was selected to participate in a California lottery TV game show.

3. He owns a "pornographic" web site venture called "Adult Swing Club" (Google it if you aren't easily offended. I did, and it raised my eyebrows). He filed for bankruptcy in 2008.

4. He reported two burglaries totaling $59,000 that turned out to be unlikely (no evidence was generated that he actually owned the lost possessions).

5. He was wearing a jacket with a Corvette Owners Club of San Diego emblem on it. A very fast GM car. Other than Hummer, a Corvette is about as anti-Prius as you can get.

6. Most people that are 61 years old learned to drive a manual transmission. Most people of that age instinctively know what Neutral is and how it truly affects the automobile.

7. He had a possible motive of retaliation for being turned away by his Toyota dealer when he received a recall notice and took the Prius to Toyota of El Cajon about two weeks ago, but the dealership refused to examine the car, saying it was not on the recall list.

Hard to tell what really happened but..........


Spaw

Subject: RE: Would you buy a new Toyota ??
From: Amos
Date: 10 Mar 10 - 10:05 PM

Three remedies to a runaway Prius demonstrated.

A

Subject: RE: Would you buy a new Toyota ??
From: CarolC
Date: 10 Mar 10 - 10:52 PM

I saw the guy being interviewed, and he sure as hell didn't look comfortable to me. He looked and sounded like he'd just been through a pretty harrowing experience.

Subject: RE: Would you buy a new Toyota ??
From: mousethief
Date: 11 Mar 10 - 12:03 AM

Yeah you'd regain your composure right quick if it was that or death. I don't think that proves what you think it proves.

Subject: RE: Would you buy a new Toyota ??
From: CarolC
Date: 11 Mar 10 - 12:17 AM

About those videos, how do we know that the methods used would work in the case of one of the cars in which the computer system was acting up? The people who made the videos were in cars in which this problem was not occurring.

The guy I saw on the news had to push hard on the brakes with both feet to bring the car to a stop. The people in the video are saying that braking normally would do the trick.

Subject: RE: Would you buy a new Toyota ??
From: CarolC
Date: 11 Mar 10 - 12:25 AM

I just watched another video of that guy. Even pushing with both feet and applying the emergency brake didn't work. A cop had to put his vehicle in front of the Prius and force it to stop.

I notice there's a few people on this thread who seem to be accusing the government of conspiracy on this issue. LOLOL!

Crazy conspiracy theorists...

Subject: RE: Would you buy a new Toyota ??
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 11 Mar 10 - 02:18 AM

Recent comments elsewhere have surprised me with a number of descriptions of strange and unusual vehicle controls of which I was not aware.

It appears that several manufacturers have introduced new "shift patterns" that differ radically from the familiar. Some have gone to complete electrical accelerator, shifting, and braking systems. Some have interlocks that prevent shifting into neutral above certain speeds or that require "unusual" and non-obvious methods to override the interlocks.

It appears that the controls in affected Toyotas are not what most of us are familiar with. The car demonstrated in one of the videos appears to have an electric shifter, as it's difficult to imagine a mechanical linkage with a 1 or 2 inch "throw" giving good control of the transmission. In the video in which the engine was shut down, the driver appears to comment that the brakes disappeared initially, although they later seemed to work. It might be expected that the throttle is entirely electric and controlled by a computer.

If there is one failure in the computer, other systems controlled by it - or by interconnected computer(s) - might be expected to also behave abnormally. Demonstrating that "emergency responses" work in a vehicle that performs normally is not much proof that the same methods would work in the event of a failure that is not well understood.

Opinions are fine; but without knowing the particular vehicle (which may differ a lot from prior year models of the same name) it appears unsafe to criticize either car or driver too severely.

There does appear to be substantial evidence that Toyota has "concealed" reports of malfunctions, and has failed to make required reports to NTHSA.

The "computer systems" in question are reported to be non-maintainable by anyone outside Toyota (as evidenced by there being only ONE laptop in the US capable of even displaying the status of the central computer, and no readout accessible by "authorized service agents."). The computer uses a sytem claimed to be "proprietary" and Toyota refuses to divulge even what programming language(s) are used in it.

Toyota has REFUSED to provide information requested in several prior legal cases where defects were suspected, even to the extent of "credible opinions" as to whether defects may have occured.

Thus far their word can be trusted about as completely as that of recent US DOJ people talking about torture.

(Just an opinion, of course.)

John

Subject: RE: Would you buy a new Toyota ??
From: CarolC
Date: 11 Mar 10 - 04:49 AM

Think we need more investigation, John? Personally, I think we do, but the conspiracy theorists might not agree.

Subject: RE: Would you buy a new Toyota ??
From: Greg F.
Date: 11 Mar 10 - 08:15 AM

"Runaway" Prius my left.............

This is a problem of human stupidity, not vehicle malfunction.

1. He has a problem operating his vehicle so he PHONES 911??? Gimmie shelter. What does he expect them to do? have Scotty beam a mechanic into the passenger seat?

2. Dispatcher told this idiot repeatedly to shift into neutral- WHICH HE REPEATEDLY REFUSED TO DO.

3. It took this idiot 20 some-odd minutes to TURN OFF THE EFFING IGNITION SWITCH? (which, when he finally did it, stopped the car immediately)

There's plenty to blame for, but this one won't fly.

Whem morons are allowed to operate potentially dangerous machinery, this is what happens.

Subject: RE: Would you buy a new Toyota ??
From: EBarnacle
Date: 11 Mar 10 - 09:06 AM

Motivation, anyone?

Subject: RE: Would you buy a new Toyota ??
From: GUEST,Mike Rogers
Date: 11 Mar 10 - 11:22 AM

I have an Avensis I bought from new - not affected by the recall.
best car I've ever owned and one of the best I've ever driven - and I've driven many types over 40 something years.

Subject: RE: Would you buy a new Toyota ??
From: gnu
Date: 11 Mar 10 - 01:32 PM

All I did was ask a question... "I have a question... can't you shift to neutral AT ALL?"

Now... IF, IF, IF ANY, ANY, vehicle is made so that you can't do that, it's a piece of shit. Neutral is between that way and the other way. For two reasons. One is mechanical. The other is, "Why the fuck would you wanna do anything else? It's not safe."

So, my question still stands.

Subject: RE: Would you buy a new Toyota ??
From: Greg F.
Date: 11 Mar 10 - 03:12 PM

Yes, it is possible to shift to neutral in a Prius when you are travelling down the highway. Guaranteed.

The driver is an idiot- he called emergency services for help and then refused to do what they told him to do.

Thank god they got him off the road before he killed someone else.

Now, they should revoke his drivers license.

Subject: RE: Would you buy a new Toyota ??
From: catspaw49
Date: 11 Mar 10 - 03:37 PM

My dear Gnu.....I don't have an answer for you but here's an idea..........

Back when.........Engineers used to spend a lot of time trying to figure out ways they could keep idiots from damaging the wonderful crap they had designed. And it was a problem! Seriously. The fact that most people couldn't tell an alternator from a carburetor on the best day they ever had precluded anything like reading a gauge so along came "Idiot Lights." Even they didn't do the job as it was not uncommon for someone to come in and tell me their "HOT" light had come on so they drove on until they came to someplace who could help. By this point I realize the car on the hook parked in front of the shop probably would require MAJOR repairs at the very least.

So computers and electronics came along and they solved many problems and created others. One thing they could do was maintain adjustments to various devices or the engine, steering, suspension, braking, and transmission, as unit wholes......and moreover all those ECM's could be linked. What has this do to do with it? Maybe nothing in this case as I haven't talked to a Toyota wrench or found an authoratative source, but my suspicion is that what we have here is either "failure to communicate" or too much communication.

See, the engineers have finally got what they wanted! They have the means in place to keep some asshole driver from fucking up their car! No.....We won't let you throw it into neutral at high speed/high RPM or whatever. Every system has a built in fail safe factor and then all the ECM's get togehter and talk it over.   They then decide what's best to do for whatever, whenever, however.

What the engineers may have failed to figure in was the possiblility of the car destroying itself by running into a brick wall because the various fail safe sytems locked out the driver who was a helpless passenger.

I think there are a lot of possibilities here as well as the human factor/group think sort of thing. We'll see how it goes down the road, so to speak................

Spaw

Subject: RE: Would you buy a new Toyota ??
From: catspaw49
Date: 11 Mar 10 - 03:42 PM

Or as an old friend of mine always answered any question.......Too early to tell.

'Course if he was already bored by the subject he'd tail that with......Too late to care.

Spaw

Subject: RE: Would you buy a new Toyota ??
From: gnu
Date: 11 Mar 10 - 03:49 PM

Fair enough, Spaw. We are still waiting for the details. But... if they did that, they should pay through the nose for such a decision... a human life (LIVES) is more important than a tranny or a crank, no?

And, BTW, being not terribly well versed in this... why would chuckin it in n at high speed damage anything? Wouldn't it just rev down?

Subject: RE: Would you buy a new Toyota ??
From: catspaw49
Date: 11 Mar 10 - 05:22 PM

No, at least on a standard IC engine........If the throttle is stuck it stays at the high revs. Electric parts would probably be less affected as most motor speeds are far higher potentially than any IC.

Spaw

Subject: RE: Would you buy a new Toyota ??
From: mousethief
Date: 11 Mar 10 - 05:22 PM

gnu, I'd guess because of the possibility the knuckle-headed driver would overshoot and go into reverse.

Subject: RE: Would you buy a new Toyota ??
From: CarolC
Date: 11 Mar 10 - 05:33 PM

I just read a comment below this video saying that people are reporting that it's not possible to shift into neutral while this problem is happening...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dg8QCHIavfY

Does anyone know what the oldest Toyotas are that are having this problem?

Subject: RE: Would you buy a new Toyota ??
From: Royston
Date: 11 Mar 10 - 05:40 PM

I have just ordered a 2010 Prius T-Spirit.

Having studied a lot of the material out there, it seems there were two issues.

1. A throttle pedal on old models that after years of service could stick - mechanically stick in the down position.

2. A software problem on the latest model that produced an ABS feedback in the brake pedal that freaked out some drivers and caused them to jump off the brake pedal.

So they replaced the throttle pedal going forward and recalled old motors for a retro-fit.

For the brake problem they applied a software patch for the ABS feedback that made people feel happy and comfortable again.

The braking system on the prius is a standard hydraulic system with direct mechanical connections on the master and slave servos. The only electronic component was the ABS which, as in all cars, gives a force-feedback to the pedal to alert the driver.

There is no reason why an intelligent and competent driver could have failed to stop a Prius even if it experienced both conditions at the same time.

IMHO.

Could it be that - recently - some folks are on a bandwagon??

I watched the three youtube videos back down the thread - can't remember who posted them. It all seems quite simple and quite as I expected. And that was on an old model.

Subject: RE: Would you buy a new Toyota ??
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 11 Mar 10 - 05:43 PM

A recnt, not overly technical, comment on auto controls is still up now at:

Complex controls confusing drivers/

"New technology may mean dangerous fumbling for shifter, ignition
COMMENTARY
By Dan Carney
updated 6:20 a.m. CT, Tues., Feb. 16, 2010

...

Disorientation may have contributed to the crash of a Lexus ES350 sedan in August that killed an off-duty California Highway Patrolman and three of his family. Patrol Officer Mark Saylor was driving a loaner car that accelerated suddenly and roared through rush-hour traffic in suburban San Diego at 120 mph.

Toyota has blamed the accident on a problem with the accelerator pedal. The Saylor family deaths have become a prime example behind a series of recalls over quality and safety concerns affecting about 8.5 million Toyota vehicles.

But the problem may be deeper than just malfunctioning software or floor mat entrapment of accelerator pedals.

Saylor also was unable to shift the car into neutral or switch off the engine, some of the typical things a driver would do during unintended acceleration, perhaps because of unfamiliarity with their operation.

To switch off the ES350's engine while driving, Saylor would have had to press and hold the "Stop/Start" button for three seconds, an action that is not obvious and could be difficult to accomplish while swerving through traffic at high speeds. And the Lexus features a shifter that follows a slightly twisting path rather than sliding directly fore and aft.

The Lexus shifter is far from the most confusing on the market. That title is up for grabs among Toyota's hybrid models and the latest models from Mercedes-Benz and BMW. The Toyotas and BMWs use a console shifter that the driver slides sideways and forward for reverse or over and backward for drive. Mercedes has a device that looks like a turn signal stalk on the right side of the steering column that the driver lifts for reverse or presses downward for drive.

The Saylor accident prompted Consumer Reports to suggest five fixes carmakers could make to improve safety in the event of unintended acceleration. Included among them was the need to simplify turning the car's engine off and shifting it into neutral in an emergency.

"You shouldn't have to read the owner's manual to figure out how to use the shifter," Consumer Reports said.

[end quote]

The picture with the article shows what probably is a a shift lever, with positions marked D, N, R, and B. One might assume that means "Drive" "Neutral" "Reverse" and "Blow Up" (?) or maybe it's "Blast Off."

John

Subject: RE: Would you buy a new Toyota ??
From: gnu
Date: 11 Mar 10 - 05:49 PM

Hahahahahaaaa! I just remembered sommat when I read your post Spaw. Silly me... I meant, slow down... the rev's would stay up, of course. My DUH! Big time.

But, here is the HAHA. 35 years ago, my buddy had a Datsun 610. Standard. We would take The Old Fredericton Road to uni and back... at 80mph most of the time on the straight stretches. When a cop would stop him, he would wait until the cop was about to get out of the car and then rev the engine way up and the throttle would stick when the second barrel opened.... you know the rest of the story... worked at least a half dozen times. Except the night the cop spotted about 500 apples in the back on Sunday night... the same cop that stopped him on Friday night going home.

Stealing apples back then was bad news... the fine was $5 an apple! But, he let us go and we never had the shits again.

Subject: RE: Would you buy a new Toyota ??
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 11 Mar 10 - 06:26 PM

The problem of over-acceleration isn't really new.

I had a 1958 Renault Dauphine that had a "choke cable" connection from the accelerator pedal to the carburator, and on a scenic drive in the wilder parts of New Hampshire in the dead of winter "she" saw a sign pointing to a "ski lift" and insisted "she" must see it, since "she" had never seen one.

When we got there, it was -- as I'd tried to convince her on the way up about 15 miles of ice-covered road with the profile of a snake after someone had stabbed it with an ice pick -- just a long rope looped over a couple of old wagon wheels on a slope about 100 feet long.

There were no skiers.

When we turned around, I'll confess to "gunning it" a bit, and the iced-up throttle cable stuck at "wide open."

On that particular car, you could turn the ignition off, but if you released the key it was spring loaded to where it locked the steering column, and there was no "ACC" position.

Since the Dauphine had an engine horsepower of about 3 FFPH^** I could fairly easily have just braked until I killed the engine, but I rode it down about a mile, using the brake to keep from blowing the engine, to a spot where the road was straight enough to turn it off with minimal requirement for dramatic steering responses.

After stopping, a liberal shot of WD40 and a hard yank on the throttle end of the cable made everything ok again.



^** For those not familiar with technical terminology:

        FFPH = flea-farts per hour.

John

Subject: RE: Would you buy a new Toyota ??
From: Stephen L. Rich
Date: 11 Mar 10 - 11:49 PM

I don't want a Toyota! I want a real one!

Subject: RE: Would you buy a new Toyota ??
From: MikeL2
Date: 12 Mar 10 - 10:01 AM

hi

My wife takes her Yaris in for the accelerator change on Monday.

I have to say that this is the third Yaris she has had and she has had absolutely no problems with any. I don't know what the change is but for us it doesn't really seem to be necessary.

Cheers

MikeL2

Subject: RE: Would you buy a new Toyota ??
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 16 Mar 10 - 02:03 AM

The latest Toyota input is that the computer shows that the brakes on the infamous Prius were applied 250 times, "proving that the driver never applied the brakes firmly." (250 is the maximum number of "brake events" the computer could record.)

They also state that the accelerator was applied between each brake application.

The "brake override" is supposed to shut down the engine if accelerator and brakes are applied at the same time. If the accelerator is "failed on" the result Toyota reports could likely be taken as proof that the accelerator function (but not necessarily the pedal) was stuck, and if the command to accelerate was independant of the accelerator pedal (due to a failure) there's not much reason to expect the shutdown interlock to have been actuated.

The most common Anti-Lock Braking System mode of operation is to release the brake on any wheel that "slips," and since the computer overruns at a mere 250 "brake events" the most likely cause is that the brakes were not applied strongly enough to override the ABS system, If the brake/accelerator interlock is of normal kind the result reported by the computer would be an "expected result." The brakes were being "chattered" by the ABS system.

The only way to positively override cycling of most ABS systems is to release the brakes so that there is no slip, or to apply the brakes suddenly and forcefully enough to make all of the wheels lock up so that they're all "locked" at the same (zero) speed. ALL THE WHEELS must be put into "full lockup" within the "cycle time" for the ABS system - often about 100 Hz or so, so that the first couple of seconds would have "filled the computer memory." Locking all the wheels, even if it could be done, is a questionable action at 90 mph(?).

No argument, at this point, that the driver might have been able to hit the kill switch, or to shift into neutral. That failure just means that the controls were not obvious to him, and/or that he was just to scared to respond to suggestions from the 911 operator.

Looks (to me) like Toyota remains determined to evade, or just really don't have anyone very smart working the problem.

But I'll wait for their next "explanation."

John

Subject: RE: Would you buy a new Toyota ??
From: catspaw49
Date: 16 Mar 10 - 11:28 AM

Sikes is beginning to be "Balloon Boy 2".........Try this

This is becoming a bit of the Audi situation of a few years back and Sikes????   Hmmmmmmm..........

Spaw

Subject: RE: Would you buy a new Toyota ??
From: MikeL2
Date: 16 Mar 10 - 11:38 AM

hi folks

I took my wife's Yaris in for the recall yesterday.

The dealer took the car on time and when I called to pick it up they explained what they had done eg to the accelerator.

They had completely washed and valeted the car and given it an MOT type test of all the functions and presented them on a signed certificate.

They also thanked us for any inconvenience and said that there is a letter in the post containing £20 worth of vouchers for M&S.

I think that is a fair deal especially seeing as we have had no problems what-so-ever.

Cheers

MikeL2

Subject: RE: Would you buy a new Toyota ??
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 16 Mar 10 - 03:58 PM

I saw ATOYOTA in my rear view mirror.
It looked exactly the same when I turned around!
Palindromic & mirror reversal, that's good.

Subject: RE: Would you buy a new Toyota ??
From: Greg F.
Date: 16 Mar 10 - 04:03 PM

STUPIDITY KILLS

But not fast enough......

Subject: RE: Would you buy a new Toyota ??
From: gnu
Date: 19 Mar 10 - 02:47 PM

EXTREMELY FOUL LANGUAGE on YT video

Subject: RE: Would you buy a new Toyota ??
From: catspaw49
Date: 19 Mar 10 - 03:54 PM

But pretty much my feelings as well...........This Prius thing is like "Audi Revisited."

Spaw

Subject: RE: Would you buy a new Toyota ??
From: Greg F.
Date: 13 Apr 10 - 12:08 PM

April 13, 2010, 9:11 am

Consumer Reports Says Lexus GX 460 Is Unsafe

By CHRISTOPHER JENSEN


Consumers should not buy the 2010 Lexus GX 460 sport utility vehicle because of a handling problem that could lead to a rollover and possibly "serious injury or death," according to Consumer Reports magazine.

A "don't buy" warning is rare for the magazine, but there was no doubt it was necessary, said David Champion, the senior director of the Consumer Reports auto test division. The litmus test was whether the testers would want their families in the vehicle. The answer was no, he said, so "I wouldn't want anybody else in it."