Would you buy a new Toyota ??

Subject: RE: Would you buy a new Toyota ??
From: Greg F.
Date: 13 Apr 10 - 12:08 PM

April 13, 2010, 9:11 am

Consumer Reports Says Lexus GX 460 Is Unsafe

By CHRISTOPHER JENSEN


Consumers should not buy the 2010 Lexus GX 460 sport utility vehicle because of a handling problem that could lead to a rollover and possibly "serious injury or death," according to Consumer Reports magazine.

A "don't buy" warning is rare for the magazine, but there was no doubt it was necessary, said David Champion, the senior director of the Consumer Reports auto test division. The litmus test was whether the testers would want their families in the vehicle. The answer was no, he said, so "I wouldn't want anybody else in it."

Subject: RE: Would you buy a new Toyota ??
From: catspaw49
Date: 19 Mar 10 - 03:54 PM

But pretty much my feelings as well...........This Prius thing is like "Audi Revisited."

Spaw

Subject: RE: Would you buy a new Toyota ??
From: gnu
Date: 19 Mar 10 - 02:47 PM

EXTREMELY FOUL LANGUAGE on YT video

Subject: RE: Would you buy a new Toyota ??
From: Greg F.
Date: 16 Mar 10 - 04:03 PM

STUPIDITY KILLS

But not fast enough......

Subject: RE: Would you buy a new Toyota ??
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 16 Mar 10 - 03:58 PM

I saw ATOYOTA in my rear view mirror.
It looked exactly the same when I turned around!
Palindromic & mirror reversal, that's good.

Subject: RE: Would you buy a new Toyota ??
From: MikeL2
Date: 16 Mar 10 - 11:38 AM

hi folks

I took my wife's Yaris in for the recall yesterday.

The dealer took the car on time and when I called to pick it up they explained what they had done eg to the accelerator.

They had completely washed and valeted the car and given it an MOT type test of all the functions and presented them on a signed certificate.

They also thanked us for any inconvenience and said that there is a letter in the post containing £20 worth of vouchers for M&S.

I think that is a fair deal especially seeing as we have had no problems what-so-ever.

Cheers

MikeL2

Subject: RE: Would you buy a new Toyota ??
From: catspaw49
Date: 16 Mar 10 - 11:28 AM

Sikes is beginning to be "Balloon Boy 2".........Try this

This is becoming a bit of the Audi situation of a few years back and Sikes????   Hmmmmmmm..........

Spaw

Subject: RE: Would you buy a new Toyota ??
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 16 Mar 10 - 02:03 AM

The latest Toyota input is that the computer shows that the brakes on the infamous Prius were applied 250 times, "proving that the driver never applied the brakes firmly." (250 is the maximum number of "brake events" the computer could record.)

They also state that the accelerator was applied between each brake application.

The "brake override" is supposed to shut down the engine if accelerator and brakes are applied at the same time. If the accelerator is "failed on" the result Toyota reports could likely be taken as proof that the accelerator function (but not necessarily the pedal) was stuck, and if the command to accelerate was independant of the accelerator pedal (due to a failure) there's not much reason to expect the shutdown interlock to have been actuated.

The most common Anti-Lock Braking System mode of operation is to release the brake on any wheel that "slips," and since the computer overruns at a mere 250 "brake events" the most likely cause is that the brakes were not applied strongly enough to override the ABS system, If the brake/accelerator interlock is of normal kind the result reported by the computer would be an "expected result." The brakes were being "chattered" by the ABS system.

The only way to positively override cycling of most ABS systems is to release the brakes so that there is no slip, or to apply the brakes suddenly and forcefully enough to make all of the wheels lock up so that they're all "locked" at the same (zero) speed. ALL THE WHEELS must be put into "full lockup" within the "cycle time" for the ABS system - often about 100 Hz or so, so that the first couple of seconds would have "filled the computer memory." Locking all the wheels, even if it could be done, is a questionable action at 90 mph(?).

No argument, at this point, that the driver might have been able to hit the kill switch, or to shift into neutral. That failure just means that the controls were not obvious to him, and/or that he was just to scared to respond to suggestions from the 911 operator.

Looks (to me) like Toyota remains determined to evade, or just really don't have anyone very smart working the problem.

But I'll wait for their next "explanation."

John

Subject: RE: Would you buy a new Toyota ??
From: MikeL2
Date: 12 Mar 10 - 10:01 AM

hi

My wife takes her Yaris in for the accelerator change on Monday.

I have to say that this is the third Yaris she has had and she has had absolutely no problems with any. I don't know what the change is but for us it doesn't really seem to be necessary.

Cheers

MikeL2

Subject: RE: Would you buy a new Toyota ??
From: Stephen L. Rich
Date: 11 Mar 10 - 11:49 PM

I don't want a Toyota! I want a real one!

Subject: RE: Would you buy a new Toyota ??
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 11 Mar 10 - 06:26 PM

The problem of over-acceleration isn't really new.

I had a 1958 Renault Dauphine that had a "choke cable" connection from the accelerator pedal to the carburator, and on a scenic drive in the wilder parts of New Hampshire in the dead of winter "she" saw a sign pointing to a "ski lift" and insisted "she" must see it, since "she" had never seen one.

When we got there, it was -- as I'd tried to convince her on the way up about 15 miles of ice-covered road with the profile of a snake after someone had stabbed it with an ice pick -- just a long rope looped over a couple of old wagon wheels on a slope about 100 feet long.

There were no skiers.

When we turned around, I'll confess to "gunning it" a bit, and the iced-up throttle cable stuck at "wide open."

On that particular car, you could turn the ignition off, but if you released the key it was spring loaded to where it locked the steering column, and there was no "ACC" position.

Since the Dauphine had an engine horsepower of about 3 FFPH^** I could fairly easily have just braked until I killed the engine, but I rode it down about a mile, using the brake to keep from blowing the engine, to a spot where the road was straight enough to turn it off with minimal requirement for dramatic steering responses.

After stopping, a liberal shot of WD40 and a hard yank on the throttle end of the cable made everything ok again.



^** For those not familiar with technical terminology:

        FFPH = flea-farts per hour.

John

Subject: RE: Would you buy a new Toyota ??
From: gnu
Date: 11 Mar 10 - 05:49 PM

Hahahahahaaaa! I just remembered sommat when I read your post Spaw. Silly me... I meant, slow down... the rev's would stay up, of course. My DUH! Big time.

But, here is the HAHA. 35 years ago, my buddy had a Datsun 610. Standard. We would take The Old Fredericton Road to uni and back... at 80mph most of the time on the straight stretches. When a cop would stop him, he would wait until the cop was about to get out of the car and then rev the engine way up and the throttle would stick when the second barrel opened.... you know the rest of the story... worked at least a half dozen times. Except the night the cop spotted about 500 apples in the back on Sunday night... the same cop that stopped him on Friday night going home.

Stealing apples back then was bad news... the fine was $5 an apple! But, he let us go and we never had the shits again.

Subject: RE: Would you buy a new Toyota ??
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 11 Mar 10 - 05:43 PM

A recnt, not overly technical, comment on auto controls is still up now at:

Complex controls confusing drivers/

"New technology may mean dangerous fumbling for shifter, ignition
COMMENTARY
By Dan Carney
updated 6:20 a.m. CT, Tues., Feb. 16, 2010

...

Disorientation may have contributed to the crash of a Lexus ES350 sedan in August that killed an off-duty California Highway Patrolman and three of his family. Patrol Officer Mark Saylor was driving a loaner car that accelerated suddenly and roared through rush-hour traffic in suburban San Diego at 120 mph.

Toyota has blamed the accident on a problem with the accelerator pedal. The Saylor family deaths have become a prime example behind a series of recalls over quality and safety concerns affecting about 8.5 million Toyota vehicles.

But the problem may be deeper than just malfunctioning software or floor mat entrapment of accelerator pedals.

Saylor also was unable to shift the car into neutral or switch off the engine, some of the typical things a driver would do during unintended acceleration, perhaps because of unfamiliarity with their operation.

To switch off the ES350's engine while driving, Saylor would have had to press and hold the "Stop/Start" button for three seconds, an action that is not obvious and could be difficult to accomplish while swerving through traffic at high speeds. And the Lexus features a shifter that follows a slightly twisting path rather than sliding directly fore and aft.

The Lexus shifter is far from the most confusing on the market. That title is up for grabs among Toyota's hybrid models and the latest models from Mercedes-Benz and BMW. The Toyotas and BMWs use a console shifter that the driver slides sideways and forward for reverse or over and backward for drive. Mercedes has a device that looks like a turn signal stalk on the right side of the steering column that the driver lifts for reverse or presses downward for drive.

The Saylor accident prompted Consumer Reports to suggest five fixes carmakers could make to improve safety in the event of unintended acceleration. Included among them was the need to simplify turning the car's engine off and shifting it into neutral in an emergency.

"You shouldn't have to read the owner's manual to figure out how to use the shifter," Consumer Reports said.

[end quote]

The picture with the article shows what probably is a a shift lever, with positions marked D, N, R, and B. One might assume that means "Drive" "Neutral" "Reverse" and "Blow Up" (?) or maybe it's "Blast Off."

John

Subject: RE: Would you buy a new Toyota ??
From: Royston
Date: 11 Mar 10 - 05:40 PM

I have just ordered a 2010 Prius T-Spirit.

Having studied a lot of the material out there, it seems there were two issues.

1. A throttle pedal on old models that after years of service could stick - mechanically stick in the down position.

2. A software problem on the latest model that produced an ABS feedback in the brake pedal that freaked out some drivers and caused them to jump off the brake pedal.

So they replaced the throttle pedal going forward and recalled old motors for a retro-fit.

For the brake problem they applied a software patch for the ABS feedback that made people feel happy and comfortable again.

The braking system on the prius is a standard hydraulic system with direct mechanical connections on the master and slave servos. The only electronic component was the ABS which, as in all cars, gives a force-feedback to the pedal to alert the driver.

There is no reason why an intelligent and competent driver could have failed to stop a Prius even if it experienced both conditions at the same time.

IMHO.

Could it be that - recently - some folks are on a bandwagon??

I watched the three youtube videos back down the thread - can't remember who posted them. It all seems quite simple and quite as I expected. And that was on an old model.

Subject: RE: Would you buy a new Toyota ??
From: CarolC
Date: 11 Mar 10 - 05:33 PM

I just read a comment below this video saying that people are reporting that it's not possible to shift into neutral while this problem is happening...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dg8QCHIavfY

Does anyone know what the oldest Toyotas are that are having this problem?

Subject: RE: Would you buy a new Toyota ??
From: mousethief
Date: 11 Mar 10 - 05:22 PM

gnu, I'd guess because of the possibility the knuckle-headed driver would overshoot and go into reverse.

Subject: RE: Would you buy a new Toyota ??
From: catspaw49
Date: 11 Mar 10 - 05:22 PM

No, at least on a standard IC engine........If the throttle is stuck it stays at the high revs. Electric parts would probably be less affected as most motor speeds are far higher potentially than any IC.

Spaw

Subject: RE: Would you buy a new Toyota ??
From: gnu
Date: 11 Mar 10 - 03:49 PM

Fair enough, Spaw. We are still waiting for the details. But... if they did that, they should pay through the nose for such a decision... a human life (LIVES) is more important than a tranny or a crank, no?

And, BTW, being not terribly well versed in this... why would chuckin it in n at high speed damage anything? Wouldn't it just rev down?

Subject: RE: Would you buy a new Toyota ??
From: catspaw49
Date: 11 Mar 10 - 03:42 PM

Or as an old friend of mine always answered any question.......Too early to tell.

'Course if he was already bored by the subject he'd tail that with......Too late to care.

Spaw

Subject: RE: Would you buy a new Toyota ??
From: catspaw49
Date: 11 Mar 10 - 03:37 PM

My dear Gnu.....I don't have an answer for you but here's an idea..........

Back when.........Engineers used to spend a lot of time trying to figure out ways they could keep idiots from damaging the wonderful crap they had designed. And it was a problem! Seriously. The fact that most people couldn't tell an alternator from a carburetor on the best day they ever had precluded anything like reading a gauge so along came "Idiot Lights." Even they didn't do the job as it was not uncommon for someone to come in and tell me their "HOT" light had come on so they drove on until they came to someplace who could help. By this point I realize the car on the hook parked in front of the shop probably would require MAJOR repairs at the very least.

So computers and electronics came along and they solved many problems and created others. One thing they could do was maintain adjustments to various devices or the engine, steering, suspension, braking, and transmission, as unit wholes......and moreover all those ECM's could be linked. What has this do to do with it? Maybe nothing in this case as I haven't talked to a Toyota wrench or found an authoratative source, but my suspicion is that what we have here is either "failure to communicate" or too much communication.

See, the engineers have finally got what they wanted! They have the means in place to keep some asshole driver from fucking up their car! No.....We won't let you throw it into neutral at high speed/high RPM or whatever. Every system has a built in fail safe factor and then all the ECM's get togehter and talk it over.   They then decide what's best to do for whatever, whenever, however.

What the engineers may have failed to figure in was the possiblility of the car destroying itself by running into a brick wall because the various fail safe sytems locked out the driver who was a helpless passenger.

I think there are a lot of possibilities here as well as the human factor/group think sort of thing. We'll see how it goes down the road, so to speak................

Spaw

Subject: RE: Would you buy a new Toyota ??
From: Greg F.
Date: 11 Mar 10 - 03:12 PM

Yes, it is possible to shift to neutral in a Prius when you are travelling down the highway. Guaranteed.

The driver is an idiot- he called emergency services for help and then refused to do what they told him to do.

Thank god they got him off the road before he killed someone else.

Now, they should revoke his drivers license.

Subject: RE: Would you buy a new Toyota ??
From: gnu
Date: 11 Mar 10 - 01:32 PM

All I did was ask a question... "I have a question... can't you shift to neutral AT ALL?"

Now... IF, IF, IF ANY, ANY, vehicle is made so that you can't do that, it's a piece of shit. Neutral is between that way and the other way. For two reasons. One is mechanical. The other is, "Why the fuck would you wanna do anything else? It's not safe."

So, my question still stands.

Subject: RE: Would you buy a new Toyota ??
From: GUEST,Mike Rogers
Date: 11 Mar 10 - 11:22 AM

I have an Avensis I bought from new - not affected by the recall.
best car I've ever owned and one of the best I've ever driven - and I've driven many types over 40 something years.

Subject: RE: Would you buy a new Toyota ??
From: EBarnacle
Date: 11 Mar 10 - 09:06 AM

Motivation, anyone?

Subject: RE: Would you buy a new Toyota ??
From: Greg F.
Date: 11 Mar 10 - 08:15 AM

"Runaway" Prius my left.............

This is a problem of human stupidity, not vehicle malfunction.

1. He has a problem operating his vehicle so he PHONES 911??? Gimmie shelter. What does he expect them to do? have Scotty beam a mechanic into the passenger seat?

2. Dispatcher told this idiot repeatedly to shift into neutral- WHICH HE REPEATEDLY REFUSED TO DO.

3. It took this idiot 20 some-odd minutes to TURN OFF THE EFFING IGNITION SWITCH? (which, when he finally did it, stopped the car immediately)

There's plenty to blame for, but this one won't fly.

Whem morons are allowed to operate potentially dangerous machinery, this is what happens.

Subject: RE: Would you buy a new Toyota ??
From: CarolC
Date: 11 Mar 10 - 04:49 AM

Think we need more investigation, John? Personally, I think we do, but the conspiracy theorists might not agree.

Subject: RE: Would you buy a new Toyota ??
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 11 Mar 10 - 02:18 AM

Recent comments elsewhere have surprised me with a number of descriptions of strange and unusual vehicle controls of which I was not aware.

It appears that several manufacturers have introduced new "shift patterns" that differ radically from the familiar. Some have gone to complete electrical accelerator, shifting, and braking systems. Some have interlocks that prevent shifting into neutral above certain speeds or that require "unusual" and non-obvious methods to override the interlocks.

It appears that the controls in affected Toyotas are not what most of us are familiar with. The car demonstrated in one of the videos appears to have an electric shifter, as it's difficult to imagine a mechanical linkage with a 1 or 2 inch "throw" giving good control of the transmission. In the video in which the engine was shut down, the driver appears to comment that the brakes disappeared initially, although they later seemed to work. It might be expected that the throttle is entirely electric and controlled by a computer.

If there is one failure in the computer, other systems controlled by it - or by interconnected computer(s) - might be expected to also behave abnormally. Demonstrating that "emergency responses" work in a vehicle that performs normally is not much proof that the same methods would work in the event of a failure that is not well understood.

Opinions are fine; but without knowing the particular vehicle (which may differ a lot from prior year models of the same name) it appears unsafe to criticize either car or driver too severely.

There does appear to be substantial evidence that Toyota has "concealed" reports of malfunctions, and has failed to make required reports to NTHSA.

The "computer systems" in question are reported to be non-maintainable by anyone outside Toyota (as evidenced by there being only ONE laptop in the US capable of even displaying the status of the central computer, and no readout accessible by "authorized service agents."). The computer uses a sytem claimed to be "proprietary" and Toyota refuses to divulge even what programming language(s) are used in it.

Toyota has REFUSED to provide information requested in several prior legal cases where defects were suspected, even to the extent of "credible opinions" as to whether defects may have occured.

Thus far their word can be trusted about as completely as that of recent US DOJ people talking about torture.

(Just an opinion, of course.)

John

Subject: RE: Would you buy a new Toyota ??
From: CarolC
Date: 11 Mar 10 - 12:25 AM

I just watched another video of that guy. Even pushing with both feet and applying the emergency brake didn't work. A cop had to put his vehicle in front of the Prius and force it to stop.

I notice there's a few people on this thread who seem to be accusing the government of conspiracy on this issue. LOLOL!

Crazy conspiracy theorists...

Subject: RE: Would you buy a new Toyota ??
From: CarolC
Date: 11 Mar 10 - 12:17 AM

About those videos, how do we know that the methods used would work in the case of one of the cars in which the computer system was acting up? The people who made the videos were in cars in which this problem was not occurring.

The guy I saw on the news had to push hard on the brakes with both feet to bring the car to a stop. The people in the video are saying that braking normally would do the trick.

Subject: RE: Would you buy a new Toyota ??
From: mousethief
Date: 11 Mar 10 - 12:03 AM

Yeah you'd regain your composure right quick if it was that or death. I don't think that proves what you think it proves.

Subject: RE: Would you buy a new Toyota ??
From: CarolC
Date: 10 Mar 10 - 10:52 PM

I saw the guy being interviewed, and he sure as hell didn't look comfortable to me. He looked and sounded like he'd just been through a pretty harrowing experience.

Subject: RE: Would you buy a new Toyota ??
From: Amos
Date: 10 Mar 10 - 10:05 PM

Three remedies to a runaway Prius demonstrated.

A

Subject: RE: Would you buy a new Toyota ??
From: catspaw49
Date: 10 Mar 10 - 09:43 PM

Scuse me, but I'm with gnu here. Can someone link me to some kind of in-depth story where I can understand what happened with the guy in the "Wild Prius?"

Prius goes wild...........right..............

Perhaps he could have shifted to neutral as gnu suggested? Would the Raging Prius not shut off with the ignition switch?

Runaway Kenworth down Monteagle? ......okay..........

Peterbilt loses brakes on Jellico? ...........yeah.....happens......

Raging Prius? Okay....I know they have no key and it could be that both the ignition and trans are computer driven and will only operate under certain conditions.....But I haven't found a valid source anywhere to confirm that.    I find it hard to believe there is absolutely no way to shut this thing down or put it into a lower gear if not neutral.....something.........The brake ECM override on the Prius is designed to shutdown the car after a certain pressure is applied to the brake pedal. I dunno'........there might be some mechanical possibilities but there might be a few human ones as well. I fiound this over on an owner's club chat forum about this Sikes character with the Kung-Fu Prius:

1. He sounded extremely distraught and incoherent for 23 minutes on the 911 tape. Yet, he regained his composure remarkably quickly. Reported by 10 News, he appeared at a news conference quickly after the freeway incident Monday and also spoke to reporters Tuesday at his Toyota dealership, where his car was towed. He appeared to be very comfortable during these TV interviews. I don't know any normal person who could appear that comfortable on TV after a 23-minute long harrowing, death-defying experience.

2. He won the $55,000 in the lottery and was selected to participate in a California lottery TV game show.

3. He owns a "pornographic" web site venture called "Adult Swing Club" (Google it if you aren't easily offended. I did, and it raised my eyebrows). He filed for bankruptcy in 2008.

4. He reported two burglaries totaling $59,000 that turned out to be unlikely (no evidence was generated that he actually owned the lost possessions).

5. He was wearing a jacket with a Corvette Owners Club of San Diego emblem on it. A very fast GM car. Other than Hummer, a Corvette is about as anti-Prius as you can get.

6. Most people that are 61 years old learned to drive a manual transmission. Most people of that age instinctively know what Neutral is and how it truly affects the automobile.

7. He had a possible motive of retaliation for being turned away by his Toyota dealer when he received a recall notice and took the Prius to Toyota of El Cajon about two weeks ago, but the dealership refused to examine the car, saying it was not on the recall list.

Hard to tell what really happened but..........


Spaw

Subject: RE: Would you buy a new Toyota ??
From: mousethief
Date: 10 Mar 10 - 08:19 PM

Is Toyota Inc. going to make it through this? It's one thing to buy a Toyota when the problem is that the brakes squeak or the rear axle wobbles. But when it locks you in at 90 mph and you have to fight to stay alive -- that's a different kettle of fish! Will Toyota survive?

Subject: RE: Would you buy a new Toyota ??
From: Ebbie
Date: 10 Mar 10 - 05:37 PM

If I understood it correctly, the man was so busy trying to control the Prius that he either didn't have a hand available to let go or he didn't think of it in time. Later, he said that he was afraid that if he put it into neutral the car would flip.

I also don't understand why he didn't turn off the ignition - which he did do when his speed was brought down to 55 mph- unless, again, he was so busy just hanging on that he had literally no time to think anything else.

In any event it was a horrendous scenario- amazing that he hit nobody.

Subject: RE: Would you buy a new Toyota ??
From: gnu
Date: 10 Mar 10 - 04:58 PM

I have a question... can't you shift to neutral AT ALL?

Subject: RE: Would you buy a new Toyota ??
From: CarolC
Date: 10 Mar 10 - 03:32 PM

I retained an open mind about it until I saw the news last night. That story about the man in the prius that was going 90 mph against his wishes was the straw that broke the camel's back for me. If I was in the market for a new vehicle, it would definitely not be a Toyota. Not under any circumstances.

Subject: RE: Would you buy a new Toyota ??
From: frogprince
Date: 10 Mar 10 - 02:59 PM

Well. I have to, to some extent anyhow, take back my words from early on this thread. My wife got in a crunch 10 days ago. Nobody hurt, but just enough to total our Camry. I started shopping, including the possibility of a newer Camry. But then the reports stated showing up of people who got the supposed fix, and still had the problem. If we had just been thinking about an update, I would have held on a little to wait for a clear resolution of the problem. But we couldn't sit here waiting. We now have a Ford Fusion, '07 with only 23k miles and a clean carfax report, at a very decent price.

Subject: RE: Would you buy a new Toyota ??
From: Genie
Date: 24 Feb 10 - 08:14 PM

You are so right, Kendall - and it's SO good to see you posting again!

I hope your voice is still getting stronger (and the rest of you too) - but that's another thread!

Genie

Subject: RE: Would you buy a new Toyota ??
From: Genie
Date: 24 Feb 10 - 08:12 PM

LOL, Alex.
Yes, of course I meant 290k miles.

I may be easy but my standards aren't THAT low! *g*

Subject: RE: Would you buy a new Toyota ??
From: kendall
Date: 24 Feb 10 - 07:59 PM

Success has ruined many good products.

Subject: RE: Would you buy a new Toyota ??
From: EBarnacle
Date: 24 Feb 10 - 12:45 PM

My earlier rant about Chinese companies is wrong in one respect. The Chinese company is an "outsource" for an "American" supplier.

Even so, if you make the product half a world away, it's hard to have a useful conversation with the manufacturer. Besides, you give up local jobs to save a couple of dollars. Economically, it's a short sighted policy to outsource manufacturing.

Subject: RE: Would you buy a new Toyota ??
From: mousethief
Date: 24 Feb 10 - 12:42 AM

I drive - and love - an old Corolla, which still gets 35 mpg highway on its original engine and tranny after almost 290 miles.

Either you meant 290,000 miles, or you have really low standards.

O..O
=o=

Subject: RE: Would you buy a new Toyota ??
From: Genie
Date: 23 Feb 10 - 11:29 PM

Just throwing my two-cents' worth in here.

I drive - and love - an old Corolla, which still gets 35 mpg highway on its original engine and tranny after almost 290 miles. It doesn't have those fancy computers and stuff, and I'm not a fan of most of that stuff (except for the airbags and GPS).   I like manual mirrors, door locks, windows, etc., and mechanical brakes, etc.

Should something foul happen to my old Toyota, I'd want to buy another from that company because my mechanic, who works only on Toyotas and Lexuses, is that rare find of a mechanic who is both very competent and very ethical and customer-oriented. (If you're in Portland, OR, here's a plug: Integrity Auto, in PDX. And, no, I'm not on commission. LOL).

Thing is, though, I don't know that today's Toyotas are as high quality as the older ones were -- any more than today's Macs are of the quality of the older ones. (Last summer, for the first time in over a decade and after using several new models, I had a Mac hard drive go belly up. I think lots of manufacturers are now farming out their production and quality control to Pacific-rim sweatshops and the quality of their products is suffering.)

For now, I put at least $1,000 a year into preventive maintenance on my old Toyota, partly because I trust the older Toyotas and partly because I don't consider some of the high-tech modifications on newer cars a real improvement.

Subject: RE: Would you buy a new Toyota ??
From: Bobert
Date: 23 Feb 10 - 09:03 PM

Anyone who owns a Toyota that they are afraid of please PM me and I'll come take it off yer hands... Won't even charge you!!!

B~

Subject: RE: Would you buy a new Toyota ??
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 23 Feb 10 - 08:53 PM

ONLY 75% Captain?

You should try living in the UK.

Don T.

Subject: RE: Would you buy a new Toyota ??
From: kendall
Date: 23 Feb 10 - 08:42 PM

I see they have sent the Fox to guard the hen house again. That congressional committee is made up of politicians who took tens of thousands of dollars from Toyota, now they can pretend to do something about their debt to Toyota. God, no wonder 75% of Americans think congress is dishonest.

Subject: RE: Would you buy a new Toyota ??
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 23 Feb 10 - 02:21 PM

Anyone with doubts about Toyota's ability to make great vehicles should bear in mind that three UK hooligans, on the "Top Gear" program, tried very hard to kill a Toyota Pickup.

After crashing it, burning it, and dropping it nose first from a crane, they finished off by putting it on the roof of a ten storey building, which was then demolished with explosives.

Ten storeys down, after the dust settled, their mechanic put a new battery in it, then started it up, and drove it away.

I've had Fords that stopped if a passerby spat on the pavement.

I think I might well buy a Toyota, if I had the Moola.

Recalls are part and parcel of buying the latest model. I'm lucky. I can't afford anything younger than ten years.

All the teething troubles have gone when I get 'em.

Don T.

Subject: RE: Would you buy a new Toyota ??
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 23 Feb 10 - 11:26 AM

If I were in the market for a car--which I hope never to be again--I would seriously consider buying a Toyota. The car you purchase today will surely have the fixes in place before you drive it off the lot. There will probably be lots of good deals on the cars, too.

I bought a new (8 miles on the odo) Altima which had had an engine recall for that model year, that already had been taken care of; plus, the warranty period had been extended, and it was priced very well below sticker. I've had problem-free driving for nearly four years with this car.

Subject: RE: Would you buy a new Toyota ??
From: PoppaGator
Date: 23 Feb 10 - 11:13 AM

Kendall's right; buy a Hyundai. Toyota has been an excellent prouct for a long time, but perhaps they've begun to rest on their laurels. And, whether their quality has begun to slack off or not, Toyota (and all the Japanese carmakers) have been able to capitalize on their name-recognition and reputation by charging premium prices

The Koreans are now in a similar situation to that of the Japanese a generation ago; they are establishing a reputation by selling quality vehicles at significantly lower prices than their competition. The current pricing is especially low for value received because the first Hyundais exported to the West were pretty lousy, and the company is still working to overcome some deservedly bad PR.

Where I don't necessarily agree with Kendall is that I don't think you need to go with a "higher-end" Hyundai. I'm pretty sure that the "low-end" Elantra (lowest price, highest gas mileage) compares just as favorably to a Corolla as the mid-size Sonata does to a Camry or a Honda Accord. Which is to say, very similar in all specifications and in quality, but at a much lower price.

I understand that Kia is essentially the same company as Hyundai ~ both are more-or-less state-owned by the South Korean government ~ so the same arguments can probably made on behalf of the Kia. My first-hand experience is with Hyundai, however; I have a 2006 Sonata with about 58K miles on it so far, and couldn't be happier with it. I wouldn't argue that it's significantly better than an '06 Toyota Camry, but it's every bit as good if not more so, with a list price about $6000 lower. The price difference is now down to around $4800; it may not be long before the price gap closes completely.