BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??

Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: Royston
Date: 16 Feb 10 - 07:49 AM

MtheGM, there is only one place on earth where women are compelled to cover as you describe, and that is Sordid Arabia. Population affected: about 21m (men and women) So that's a fringe activity. They are not compelled by law to wear the Burkha, but I would accept that the cultural compulsion is difficult for most to resist.

Lizzie was actually damning all Muslims for their beliefs about modesty (beliefs that apply in large part to male dress and appearance), and here we find her arguing the opposing view.

It needs to be pointed out 'cos any minute now she will start saying that we are terribly unfair for not taking seriously anything she says. There are good reasons for our incredulity.

Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: Emma B
Date: 16 Feb 10 - 08:04 AM

Above I quoted from Perspectives on Acquaintance Rape

"Blaming the victim" seems to be an all too prevalent reaction to acquaintance rape. Prominent authors have espoused this idea in editorial pages, Sunday Magazine sections, and popular journal articles."


For an extreme example of how the 'popular press', informs the views of people who read no further than the headlines and then ram their ill informed opinions down others throats, consider the following from last July.

The headline in the Telegraph read

"Women who dress provocatively more likely to be raped, claim scientists."

What was the truth behind this claim…….?

For starters the actual title of the press release for the same research was -

"Promiscuous men more likely to rape."

Ben Goldacre the author of the Bad Science website rang Sophia Shaw at the University of Leicester.

She was surprised to have been presented as an 'expert scientist' on the pages of the Daily Telegraph, as she is an MSc student, and this was her dissertation project.
Also it was not finished. "My findings are very preliminary," she said.
She had been discussing her dissertation at an academic conference when the British Psychological Society's PR team picked it up, and put out the press release

During the interview Goldacre was told that, every single one of the first four statements made by the Telegraph was an unambiguous, incorrect, misrepresentation of her findings.

Women who drink alcohol, wear short skirts and are outgoing are more likely to be raped?
"This is completely inaccurate," Shaw said. "We found no difference whatsoever.

The alcohol thing is also completely wrong: if anything, we found that men reported they were willing to go further with women who are completely sober."

She also added that
"We have found that people will go slightly further with women who are provocatively dressed, but this result is not statistically significant.
Basically you can't say that's an effect, it could easily be the play of chance.
I told the journalist it isn't one of our main findings, you can't say that.
It's not significant, which is why we're not reporting it in our main analysis."

Goldacre concludes that

"In any situation this type of coverage would be ridiculous, but with a sensitive subject such as rape, it is blind, irresponsible foolishness."

Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: jeddy
Date: 16 Feb 10 - 08:13 AM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3i47NAtcxEc

have a listen, then tell me, you are talking bollocks lizzie.
by the way, i think this is also very funny.
jade x

Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: Bobert
Date: 16 Feb 10 - 08:18 AM

I'll confess to have not read this entire thread but...

..."rape", to me, is a violent act peretrated on someone against their will...

That may not define every sexual act known to mankind but if it is "against their will", it's rape and therefore...

...never justified...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: Revelations
Date: 16 Feb 10 - 08:24 AM

I have spoken about being raped on this forum before. It was forty years ago and with professional help I got past the worst of the PTS. Several women from this forum have shared their experiences with me - two of us were attacked by strangers. The rest by people they knew. None was parading around like a whore or dressed suggestively. Again -the statistics show that most rapes occur in the home with the perpetrator known to the victim.

I haven't a clue where LC gets her facts. I suspect she doesn't either.

SINS, a Guest, not sure why.

Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: Emma B
Date: 16 Feb 10 - 09:07 AM

Sinsull, Lizzie gets her 'facts' from misleading 'shock' headlines, misrepresentations and bad or pseudo 'pop science'

Far from thinking 'outside the box' she thinks no further than this.

To perpetuate such false claims in a forum is, like the journalist who exposed this abuse of research* said, with a sensitive subject such as rape, nothing less than ....

"blind, irresponsible foolishness."

* the one I quoted at 16 Feb 10 - 08:04 AM

Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 16 Feb 10 - 09:33 AM

Royston - I take much of your point: but the t-shirt I quoted is one I actually saw a girl wearing quite recently — as best I recall, the full details were: on front, "I've Been Such A Naughty Girl" ~ on back, "... So Please Spank My Bare Bottom", with downward arrow pointing to the visible top of bum-cleavage. Whatever anybody sez ~ I don't think it wise for a young woman to disport herself thus clad.

Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: jeddy
Date: 16 Feb 10 - 09:53 AM

while it might be aceptable for a friend to come up and smack her bum, it is not ok for a stranger to.

although it is clearly an invite, it is not literal, open to everyone.
it is meant to be cheeky.

the same with thong straps, i always get an urge to go and ping them, no matter who it is wearing them.
it is one thing to get an urge or an idea, the worrying point comes when someone acts on it.
i am with whoever said, i don't like lasses wearing skimpy clothes, not for their saftey, but for their health, they must be feezing!!!
it all comes to personal responsibility and self control. yes people need to be aware of any danger, but, as others have said, just because someone has made a mistake in judgment, does not give anyone the right to take advantage.
there is no blame to the victims or rape. we did not choose it, or invite it. men are just as the rest of us capable of self control.

i do agree with one point of lizzies'. there are decent men out there who are outraged at this crime.

my word that hurt to say :)
x x

Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 16 Feb 10 - 09:57 AM

I really do not need the kind of protection that Lizzie seems to offering us poor undertrod men but I think that our children need saving from the kind of nonsense that she seems to believe.

If you choose to dress like a whore, then you'll be viewed as one.

Does that mean that if you dress in the afore mentioned manner you will be paid for sex in a business like manner or does it mean that if you are a whore you deserve to be raped?

We seem to be educating them almost to tease, to dress like any rapists fantasy

Surely to dress like a rapists fantasy you would need to be meek and subdued, not bold and forward. Besides if every girl dresses in your prescribed manner what are us poor blokes who, by your own admission, are not all rapists, going to oggle at?

If you lead someone on to believe that you want something, are 'gagging' for it, then change your mind at the last moment, chances are, you're going to get a reaction you may not like.

So, if I was to come to your house, offer you thousands of pounds, wave a few crisp twenties under you nose, take you to the bank, draw out all the money, let you see it and then... Change my mind. You would be justified in robbing me with violence? I would like to see that stand up in court.

I coukd say that this is just plain nonsense but it is worse than that. It is downright dangerous. What if anyone reading this stuff had just undergone the trauma of a sexual assault and decided against reporting it because they felt they had dressed like a whore, indulged someone elses fantasies or led them on? What if because they decided to not involve the police someone else got attacked?

I do believe in freedom of speech but this really is shouting fire in a crowded theatre. I feel it should be stopped before any harm is done.


DeG

Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: SINSULL
Date: 16 Feb 10 - 10:00 AM

On a slightly different tack: a neighbor's sone at twenty met a girl in a bar, took her home and had sex with her. Though she looked at least twenty, it turned out she was fifteen. Her parents had him arrested for rape. The girl was a willing participant.
He pled guilty to avoid jail time and now has to register as a sexual predator where ever he goes. When I moved into this house the first piece of mail I received was from the police that I was living next door to a rapist.
He is a nice kid just very foolish. His parents bear the brand as well.
o me, this is wrong.

Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: SINSULL
Date: 16 Feb 10 - 10:01 AM

To me...

Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 16 Feb 10 - 10:08 AM

So, if I was to come to your house, offer you thousands of pounds, wave a few crisp twenties under you nose, take you to the bank, draw out all the money, let you see it and then... Change my mind. You would be justified in robbing me with violence? I would like to see that stand up in court ===

But the point surely, DeG, is that YOU WOULDN'T; or if you did you would be fucking silly becoz you would be behaving with unutterable rudeness & making yourself an enemy into the bargain; so why TF would you? Even if not robbed with violence, you would be asking for a spit in the eye & never to be spoken to again.

I'm sorry ~ but that was a fatuous comparison ~ just was not an intelligent man's "What if" or "Just supposing"!

Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 16 Feb 10 - 10:16 AM

okay, MtheGM: say you were quite poor, and someone came driving down your street in a big, flash SUV. Say they got out, dressed to the nines, and paraded themselves down your street. Say they were being really flash with their cash, knowing they were minted and flaunting it.

Would you be justified in mugging them? Twocking their car? Brutally assaulting them and taking all their cash? Have they "asked for it" through their behaviour? Would society say that this was acceptable behaviour in any circumstance? So why is it very obviously a crime if it comes to a woman's possessions, but not when it comes to her body?

Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 16 Feb 10 - 10:20 AM

Agreed MtheGM - I would indeed be asking for a spit in the eye. And if a spit in the eye was all we were talking about then fine - I would agree. But we are not talking spit in the eye. We are talking violent demeaning crime. The comaparison between waving money about and flashing your knickers well may be factious (Although I thought it was quite good on the spur of the moment - I'm hurt!) but the comparison of the end result is not. No matter what you have done to lead people on you do not deserve to blamed for the crime commited against you.

DeG

Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 16 Feb 10 - 10:25 AM

No, Ruth ~ & that, unlike DeG's, is a reasonable point. I didn't say his putative robbery with violence would be justified: just that his scenario was counter-productively unconvincing & ill-conceived.

In yours, mind you, tho I wouldn't be justified in assaulting, twocking, &c ~ nevertheless I would be thoroughly justified in accusing them of filthy manners. The young woman in the t-shirt deserved a spanking [or at least a virtual one: to judge by the fact that she had chosen to wear the stupid thing, she would probably have welcomed a real one!] for that, it seems to me.

Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 16 Feb 10 - 10:27 AM

Sorry you were hurt Dave ~ but even on spur-of-moment I bet you could do better with a bit of thought.

Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 16 Feb 10 - 10:38 AM

" nevertheless I would be thoroughly justified in accusing them of filthy manners."

As Del G say: if all we're talking about is you expressing your disapproval of someone's clothes or manners, fine. Personally, I don't think I would ever find myself on a position where I thought that a stranger's clothes were so offensive that they would ever provoke me to confront them, but in itself that's not a crime. But saying that a girl wearing the t-shirt you describe "deserved" some sort of punishment, spanking or otherwise, makes me uncomfortable.

Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 16 Feb 10 - 10:40 AM

But why should I be blamed for my lack of thought when it is obviously you that is hurting me? Is it my fault that I am stupid? I think not...

(Sorry for the flippancy in such a serious subject but some things I just cannot resist:-) )

DeG

Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 16 Feb 10 - 10:44 AM

Tons on here I'm skippping past to answer Bill D from way up there:

Erica Jong wrote about the "zippless fuck" in her book Fear of Flying, that fantasy you described, of being "taken." But when the opportunity arose in a train car during European travels, she found it totally revolting and kicked the anonymous member of this fantasy out on his arse.

I like her well-articulated views on a lot of things sexual. She also remarked, in a radio interview I heard a few years ago, that if she looked at pornography for 10 minutes, she wanted to have sex, but if she looked at pornography for 20 minutes, she never wanted to have sex again.

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 16 Feb 10 - 10:48 AM

Well, that is a fair opinion and I am sorry to have made you feel even uncomfortable. But do you not agree that it was a peculiarly provocatively ill-mannered way to go on? I can see where it might be intended humorously; but do you think it was funny, and in no circumstances likely to be misunderstood and have unfortunate consequence (which is, after all, is it not?, the point of this thread)? I would not have thought of 'confronting' her; but when I spoke of a 'virtual spanking', I meant some sort of advice from someone whose good opinion she might have valued, accepted without too much resentment on her part. If only...

Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: jeddy
Date: 16 Feb 10 - 10:52 AM

DeG, yes it is a very serious subject, but humour is necessary.
it might just be me, but being flipant just shows it is humans we are talking about with emotions, not objects or possessions(?).

you are being flippant in a way that does not offend and makes me smile. lizzie is being flippant in a way that hurts others and makes them feel judged.

ake, i would really like to hear from you. has the analogy i used before, made any sense to you?

take care all
jade x x x x x

Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 16 Feb 10 - 10:57 AM

Thanks, Jade - That really does mean a lot to me and it is much appreciated.

Cheers

Dave

Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: mauvepink
Date: 16 Feb 10 - 11:04 AM

If someome looks like a slut or a hooker what is the problem? The inference on the way those terms are used perjoratively is palin to see. Moralising the way women dress says more about you than them.

Are so called sluts and hookers some kind of sub-species? They are still women and many do society a valuable service. Stop denigrating them with your own morals and using them as bad examples. So they sell sex or even give it away... they do not deserve rape as a punishment for other's moralising.

I also suspect that women - a great many - often wake up the next morning with regrets for how the night went before them. We were all young once. Some are still young now. The problem is not the dress. It's rapist.

Get the priorities right on the morals

mp

Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 16 Feb 10 - 11:09 AM

"But do you not agree that it was a peculiarly provocatively ill-mannered way to go on? I can see where it might be intended humorously; but do you think it was funny, and in no circumstances likely to be misunderstood and have unfortunate consequence"

I think I would see it as a very cheeky thing to wear, and no, it doesn't fill me with joy to see young women sexually objectifying themselves. There are lots of cans of worms here, and not all 21st century feminists agree whether pornography, soft-porn, lad's mags, burlesque, page 3, lap-dancing, pole-dancing etc are empowering or undermining to women. I am definitely of the latter opinion, and I think it's extremely sad that we live in a society which encourages young women to define themselves through their sexuality - and keep in mind that I am the mother of a 16 year old girl, and I also work regularly in secondary schools, so I see the impact at quite close quarter on a day to day basis.

These girls are not making decisions in isolation - there are all sorts of factors in our society which have led us to this point. The normalisation of pornography has saddened me greatly, and I do think it is directly linked to the way that young women now dress in town centres on a Saturday night. But the notion that this is something to do with "girl power" and that these young women are solely responsible for some of their less than responsible choices pretty much lets us, as a society, off the hook. They are being manipulated through the marketplace into defining themselves through their sexuality and their physical assets, and if their physical assets are less than "perfect", they are encouraged to go to a doctor and ask him to mutilate their bodies by hoovering out a bit here and sticking in another bit there. This is now normal. And we are the ones who have stood by while it happened.

The industries that have created this culture, from lad's mags and tabloid newspapers to the fashion industry, are not run by naive, 18- or 20-year-old women; they are run by utterly mercinary old men whose only concern is turning a profit, and who are simply applying the age-old adage that sex sells.

What these girls wear may sometimes be shocking to people of our respective generations, but it is completely normal to them. I think that, instead of damning them for their choices and saying that it's pretty much understandable if they get raped, we ought to be addressing some of the more distateful trends in our society which are completely market-driven, and about which the average trollied babe out on the razz on a Saturday night hasn't a fucking clue.

Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: SINSULL
Date: 16 Feb 10 - 11:17 AM

I believe some here have never seen the site with candid photos of shoppers at Walmart. That girl's attire is moderate by these standards.The expression "trailor park trash" comes to mind. Tacky but not an invitation to rape.
And before anyone is offended, I do not believe that living in a trailor means one is trash. I am referring to the stereotype depicted on My Name Is Earl. Earl is to trailor park dwellers as Donald Trump is to the average businessman.

Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: mauvepink
Date: 16 Feb 10 - 11:21 AM

DeG asks... "I am in wholehearted agreement with the no means no lobby and there is no excuse whatsoever for rape. I would like to hear views on the following scenario. Young couple meet in the disco. They are attracted. Both have too much to drink and end up having sexual intercourse. Neither can remember much about it and neither knows with any certaintly if either of them said yes. OK - I know it is a real corner case and may or may not ever happen. But in that case did a rape occur and if so, who raped who?"

I guess that would depend if either party felt something wrong had gone on without their full consent or against express wishes. I dare say it happens and both decide to be adult about it and let it go. Where no force can be proven I suspect too that no case can be made. This is one that the CPS may not go for if it came up as a complaint.

mp

Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: GUEST,Lizzie Cornish
Date: 16 Feb 10 - 11:26 AM

"Well, many people might wonder why you wear face glitter and all that eyeliner and twirl around suggestively in front of bands when everyone else is sitting down and watching a concert, but is it their place to judge you?"

Blimey, I had no idea I twirled around,let alone suggestively! LOL

And you have this evidence from where, exactly? I'm only askin' 'cos apart from being dragged to the mosh pit in an Oysterband gig, by their lovely fans, I've never stood in front of any band and twirled, much less 'suggestively'. I mean, corks, have you SEEN my figure?! Since when was Pooh Bear 'suggestive' ? ;0)   Get a life, Joan and stop spouting outright lies, there's a good girl. Thanks.

Oh heck, so much hurt and hatred in this thread...and apparently I'm responsible for it all. Sorry, I don't accept that responsibility because over and again I've stated that rape is wrong, inexcusable.

However...and the women won't like this one, but I'm sorry, someone has to say it...However, if you are, as jade suggested, naked on the street, almost calling out for sex, and then you change your mind when some man steps forward to oblige, well, you don't have my sympathy I'm afraid, because you're a fool to put yourself into the position in the first place, let alone a selfish prat to put a man into that position.

But before I go, just tell me this. Do men have *any* rights? I hear, all the time, how women MUST be allowed to do whatever they want, dress however they want, behave however they want...but what I don't hear is how that behaviour affects men.

Has the world become ONLY about Women's Rights?

I am NOT talking about women, who, through absolutely no fault of their own, were raped. Nor am I talking about children, for heaven's sake...and for anyone to think that I would condone either of those situations being correct from the rapist's point of view fills me with revulsion and disbelief.

But in talking about the female population, in particular the younger generations (from 40 downwards) I feel they've become incredibly selfish and filled with their own self importance.

It is WRONG to lead men on. It always has been. And if, because you have chosen to do that, you get something happening to you that you never wanted, then you should be grown up enough to recognise that if you blatantly give out the message that you want sex (what happened to Love?) then change your mind at the last moment, you are putting yourself in a very stupid, and sometimes dangerous situation.

Yes, the man makes the final decision as to what happens there, if he dares to cross that line, but the fact is, that line should not have been laid down in the first place if you did not want it to go further.

Maybe some women need to stop and think far more deeply and remember that this world is filled with men too, who also have rights and one of those rights is that they too should be treated with respect and honesty.

The onus should be as much on the woman and *her* behaviour as it is on the man and his.

Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 16 Feb 10 - 11:40 AM

But men DO have the same rights as women, Lizzie. In just the same way that white people have the same rights as black people, christains have the same rights as Moslems and hetrosexuals have the same rights as homosexuals. It is EQUAL opportunities.

I can walk down the street in a skimpy T-shirt and showing my underwear if I wish. Although in my case it would be more a case of people wanting to through up than rape me... More seriously, I can go to a police station and accuse another person of assault or even, heaven forbid, rape, and I will be taken as seriously as anyone else.

The onus is not as much on the woman as the man. She is committing NO crime at all. She is doing no harm to anyone by dressing or behaving provocatively. Plase stop suggesting that any rape is in any way shape or form the victims fault.

DeG

Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: GUEST,Lizzie Cornish
Date: 16 Feb 10 - 11:45 AM

And what of the cases where men have been wrongfully accused of rape and had their whole lives implode because of it? Is that not as devastating as what happens to a rape victim, but in a very different way....

BBC News - Men Wrongfully Accused of Rape

One of my friends had a husband who was wrongfully accused of having a relationship with one of his young pupils, at school. The accuser was the young girl herself. Her allegations were later proved false.

Paul was a history teacher, one of the nicest men you could ever wish to meet.

He hanged himself months later, from a tree, in Horrabridge, in a small clearing, just where the woods met the moorland. He'd left notes for the police, his family..he just couldn't cope with what had been thrown at him, the terrible lies.


So, you see, men DO have rights too. They have a right to never be accused wrongly. They have many other rights too, just as women do, but somewhere, those rights have become lost amongst the occasionally putrid lake of feminism which teaches women that they, and ONLY they are what is important in this world.

Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: GUEST,Llizzie Cornish
Date: 16 Feb 10 - 11:48 AM

They also have a right to have their names withheld from the media, until the allegations against them are found to be true or not. I don't think, at the present time, that happens. I'm sure Richard will tell us where the law stands.

A woman who says she has been raped has automatic anonymity granted, but this is not so for those who have been accused...

Is that correct, Richard? Or has the law now been changed?

Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: mauvepink
Date: 16 Feb 10 - 11:53 AM

"Maybe some women need to stop and think far more deeply and remember that this world is filled with men too, who also have rights and one of those rights is that they too should be treated with respect and honesty.

The onus should be as much on the woman and *her* behaviour as it is on the man and his. "

Men have always had rights. No-one here is saying women should have more rights than men or that they should expect them. What is being asked for here is that *some* take charge of their willies and keep them under control. A man who predates on a woman who is drunk, who he knows he would have no chance with if she were sober, is not showing respect and he certainly has none for himself.

I quite agree with a lot you say Lizzie about women making a show of themselves by being drunk and lewd. But I maintain women can wear what they want and should be able to do so. It is their expression and if certain types of men see that as a contract to sex then they are being fools.

Most men are noit like that in any way, and many find drunken, loud mouthed, women unattractive. Rigghtly so. But no matter what signals the women make it still gives no implied right to sex. The men also have choices there. Walk away or risk a rape charge. To some their dumbsticks run their lives but most men are not in any way so low as to predate a woman who is obviously not in control.

So, if a woman is behaving badly, there is still no reason why a man cannot be chivalrous. Most I know are and would be. I am not a great lover of ladette behaviour myself but I will still not apportion blame to anyone who gets raped.

Rape is rape... the fault is the rapists NOT the victim

mp

Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 16 Feb 10 - 11:53 AM

I am sorry Dave ~ but I think that is a gross over-simplification. She IS doing harm by dressing or behaving 'provocatively' if she doesn't intend to put out: she is committing a gross breach of manners ~ or to put it more simply, being fucking rude ~ in appearing to offer more than she is prepared to grant. YOU use the word 'provocatively' ~ you must know {I am sure Richard will back me up on this} that there are some breaches of the law where 'provocation' can be admitted as a mitigating factor even to an admitted offence. If the young woman whose Please·Spank·My·Bare·Bum t-shirt I described above had got a good ringing smack across her behind from a passing stranger, I can't see she would have had all that much to complain of: &, if charged, surely he could have claimed a degree of 'provocation' as part of his defence — she would have ~ LITERALLY ~ asked for it. Where is the 'provocation' {I reiterate, a word you yourself are happy to be employing here} line to be drawn?

Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: mauvepink
Date: 16 Feb 10 - 11:57 AM

"So, you see, men DO have rights too. They have a right to never be accused wrongly"

What a sad tale...

And Lizzie, far earlier in the thread I made mention of false accusers, that they should do the time that would have been given to the rapists had it happened. It is inexcusable and unforgiveable.

Sadly it happens a lot :-(

mp

Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 16 Feb 10 - 12:03 PM

"But no matter what signals the women make it still gives no implied right to sex. The men also have choices there. Walk away or risk a rape charge."


Geez, thank god I'm a woman, because to be a man these days must be absolute hell!

So let me get this right...a woman can do, say, dress, behave, be sexually explicit and implicit in WHATEVER way she so chooses, but if a man reads the signs wrong and thinks she's 'up for it' to coin a romantic term, or 'gagging for a shagging' to coin an even more romantic term, then he's totally in the wrong, whilst SHE is totally in the RIGHT????

That's crap, imo.

If, as a woman, you're 'asking for it' by your volition, actually there, stark naked, having led a man on in the most explicit way, then I'm sorry, but you DO share some of the responsibility for what happens, because without your leading him on, without you explicit behaviour the man wouldn't be caught up in all of that in the first place....

I am NOT talking of men who deliberately set out to rape, but of men who become totally confused because a woman feels she has the right to string him along, like a toy, then throw him away when she's bored, or when she realises that he actually thought she meant what she said.

The solution is simple. Do NOT lead men on. Do NOT get blindarsed drunk. Do NOT think that the world revolves only around you and no-one else..and BE BLOODY RESPONSIBLE!




And yet again, before I'm accused of it, I am NOT condoning men who deliberately rape totally innocent women.

Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: Royston
Date: 16 Feb 10 - 12:04 PM

Lizzie C, you ought to start a new thread.

We're talking about whether or not women who have been raped, should carry some blame for what happened to them.

A discussion about women who make false accusations of rape, would be an entirely different topic.

As for your last question, about rights, I would echo everything that DeG said. I would add that I am astonished to read these things coming from a woman, however mad and silly you might be. You should be thorougly ashamed of yourself. Again.

Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: jeddy
Date: 16 Feb 10 - 12:05 PM

ok lizzie, you are never going to see sense, but here goes anyway.

one the one hand you say rape is never acceptable, but then go on to say it is invited and not the mans fault.

remember when you were young and experimenting? you cannot not have a line. that line says what you are comfortable with. when messing around when you are younger, is natural, but what you are saying is by starting any sexual behaviour is an open ivitation for sex.
no matter what.

ok, a silly comparison. at a festie a few years ago. we give people hugs and kisses on the cheek to people we know, when we haven't seen them for a while. one bloke, gave me a kiss, then licked the side of my face.

are you saying i should not have been upset because i had no right to draw 'the line' at a peck and a hug?

as for men having rights, of course they do! how stupid are you to think that i am not as disgusted as you when women make false accusations? it hurts everyone, the accuser, in case anything does happen in the future, the accused, his reputation, his self worth and his trust.
personally i think you are part of the reason society thinks the way it does about rape, you say one one hand it is outragous and barbaric, then justify it by saying that men are 'lead on'.

which is it lizzie?

i know that i shouldn't let you get to me, as you have no basis for thinking the way you do. you have no empathy for how we feel when you say such stupid, contradictory things. however on this subject as anyone might imagine i get rather passionate and will NOT let you make anyone feel bad or guilty for having had such a horrific experiance.

Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 16 Feb 10 - 12:08 PM

Why would you be astonished?

I am the daughter of a man, the sister of a man, the mother of a man.

I have nothing to be ashamed of whatsoever, other than daring to stand up and say that some women are terribly wrong in how they behave.

Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: mauvepink
Date: 16 Feb 10 - 12:10 PM

"So let me get this right...a woman can do, say, dress, behave, be sexually explicit and implicit in WHATEVER way she so chooses, but if a man reads the signs wrong and thinks she's 'up for it' to coin a romantic term, or 'gagging for a shagging' to coin an even more romantic term, then he's totally in the wrong, whilst SHE is totally in the RIGHT????"

If he can see she is drunk and not aware of her faculties then he should not act on the signals in any way. He really should show sense himself and walk. But some mem's dumbsticks do the walking into trouble all too easily.

I am not saying she is in the right to tease and entice with no will to follow through. I am saying she can change her mind and a drunken mind is very unreliable. Men know that too.

What is not right is that she should get raped for doing as she has. The man knows the difference in this case and maybe what he is risking too. They have a shared responsibility to each other over respect and dinity but beyond that she has a right not to be raped at all (and him for that matters)

mp

Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 16 Feb 10 - 12:11 PM

Well, Royston, I would NOT echo what DeG said — see my last post, please. And Lizzie is not only talking about false accusations, but is fully engaging with what you state above to be the topic of this thread, & I can't help wondering as to your motives in attacking her for things she is not saying. I know many people find a lot of what she sez irritating; but this bland assumption you appear to be making that anything she sez can therefore be discounted and/or misinterpreted redounds v badly on you IMO. Before going for her again, or coming back at me about this, I would urge you to reread her last post WITH OPEN-MINDED ATTENTION,

Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: SINSULL
Date: 16 Feb 10 - 12:15 PM

And that translate into if they are raped it is their fault?
You should be ashamed of yourself, Lizzie. And once again, I will repeat, that statistics do NOT show a correlation between dress and rape.

You said:"Blimey, I had no idea I twirled around,let alone suggestively! LOL "
But by your own admission, if a man was driven to rape by your innocent provocative display you would be partially to blame. No?

Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: vectis
Date: 16 Feb 10 - 12:19 PM

To use an analogy here.

Is it OK, when a woman leads a man on and then changes her mind, for him to beat the crap out of her?

Just asking...

Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 16 Feb 10 - 12:20 PM

WHY am I making you feel bad, jade? READ what I've said, read how many times I've said that innocent women who have been raped through no fault of their own are not who I am talking about here...READ how many times I've said there is no excuse for rape. But sometimes I can understand how it happens, why it happens...and it is never a good reason...

It should never happen, but it does. It always will do, I'm afraid. It has been happening since time began. Yes, we should be doing all we can to turn it around, but women behaving like the worst kind of lager lout is truly NOT helping the situation at all.

If someone licked my face, I'd clobber him.

We are living in scary times...Yesterday I heard three kids talking, two were girls, the other a young lad.."Clare tried to shag me yesterday" he said to the girls, who grinned at each other. They were about 13 years old I'd say. Today I was told that cases of Chlamydia are higher in Torquay than anywhere else in Devon..(nope, haven't checked it out yet, Emma) Kids are having sex younger and younger and younger..

Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: Bill D
Date: 16 Feb 10 - 12:26 PM

SRS... I am absolutely sure that the young woman who told me of her 'being taken' fantasy did NOT mean just 'any guy who hadn't been told in advance'. I'd bet that all she meant was that IF she was already attracted to him, that would be an exciting format. Knowing her, she would NOT have appreciated an attempt by some stranger in a dark alley. VERY few women would think such a thing was 'exciting'....

What I find bothers me in the thinking and exhortations in the thread are some of the single-minded "this is the way it IS, and there is only one sane attitude to have about ANY situation or individual".
   As I noted above, humans share certain traits with our remote mammalian ancestors. Males of many species DID originally fight each other for mates, and then expect their new mates.... or even 'harems' ...to cooperate. This still happens! Of course, in many species, especially NON-mammalian ones, there is a huge element of he females being choosy and wanting bright feathers first...etc. But in mammalian species, there remains the testosterone-fueled aggressive sexual/power/dominance behavior.
   Now, here we are...the only species which can really reflect on our own behavior, and who have constructed a society where aggressive sex...no matter for what reason.... is counter-productive and a serious problem!
We still HAVE men who can't cope with the frustrations of courtship and rejection, but think they can get what they want (whether for power/dominance OR just plain sex) and defy society to get it!
We KNOW this exists...and we KNOW it needs to be controlled... but 'some' of the ones entrusted with controlling it have a deep embedded sympathy for those who commit the offense! There are posts above recounting instances of rape where 'there just wasn't enough evidence', or 'the woman was judged to have been provocative'.
We KNOW we must get past those attitudes and 1)make it clear to boys, no matter what the situation that this will not be tolerated!, and 2)DEFINE clearly what 'this' is, so that judges & juries can't easily avoid convicting men who go too far.

...and yes, women need to be educated to be realistic about what to expect and how to avoid problems...and how best to respond if a problem develops. Note: I do NOT mean that "women must bear some of the responsibility" if some man refuses to hear "NO!"...I just mean that women need to be aware that some men WILL refuse to hear "NO!" This does not excuse the man! 'Strong urges' are NOT a defense.

Do I think all this finger pointing, name calling and line-in-the-sand drawing will do much good? Ha! I can imagine similar discussions & debates like this still happening hundreds of years from now.... I hope not, but I don't see the basic problem being solved. Maybe there will be 'some' better education and laws and developed, but this 'being human' thing has as many problems as virtues.

Folks...try to see the gray areas in the situation. It is not all clearly defined black & white.

Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 16 Feb 10 - 12:26 PM

Vectis ~ what a silly post! Of course he would not be justified in physical violence. Now here is a question back to you ~ would he be justified in telling her politely but firmly that she had behaved unacceptably? Or in calling her a mildish pejorative zoological name, like 'cow', say, or 'bitch'? Or what. I mean, in the 'just suppose' scenario you have postulated & then gone on fatuously to hyperbolise the possible response, what would YOU consider justified?

Just asking.

Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: Royston
Date: 16 Feb 10 - 12:32 PM

I read everything with an open mind MtheGM.

Lizzie is arguing that there are some circumstances in which a woman deserves to get raped.

She is stupid, you are stupid if you agree to that proposition.

There are some issues that do not have to be seen in shades of grey or seen as being nuanced. This is one such issue. It is utterly black and white. No, means No. Even if yes has been said and the act of sexual congress is under way, No means No and Stop means Stop. Simple as that. no equivocation.

Now if you say that that a woman who dresses in that "slap my bum" (with an arrow to her bum) T shirt is probably asking for a male (or female) contemporary to slap her bum, smile and make a flattering (or lewd, but playful) comment. Then, yes, I would agree with you.

But that is not what is being said. You, certainly Lizzie, are saying that a woman in that situation deserves a full-on sexual assualt / rape. That is outrageous, deeply stupid.

Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 16 Feb 10 - 12:37 PM

"Lizzie is arguing that there are some circumstances in which a woman deserves to get raped."

You said that, not me...actually. Do NOT put words like that in my mouth. Thank you.

"You, certainly Lizzie, are saying that a woman in that situation deserves a full-on sexual assualt / rape. That is outrageous, deeply stupid."

No, I said that a woman should take some of the responsibility for what can happen if she leads a man on and on and on, only to say she's changed her mind, like some kind of joke...

You obviously think it's just fine for her to behave however she wants, and to hell with everyone else. I'm saying it's not.

THAT is what I am saying.

Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: mauvepink
Date: 16 Feb 10 - 12:37 PM

I think Vectis may have been proving a point by irony...

Of course it would not be right to hit her. And if it's not right to hit her then why is it right to rape her? Or, if not right, somehow more acceptable and less reprehensible?

That is how I read his post... by making a stupid suggestion he illustrates the main point quite well

mp

Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: jeddy
Date: 16 Feb 10 - 12:37 PM

lizzie said "If someone licked my face, I'd clobber him."

you see lizzie, there are always certain lines that should not be crossed.
had i have been comfortable with it, it wouldn't have been a problem. all you need to do now, is put in sex instead of licking your face and you are there, it is happening. telling him no, you don't want it. you try and stop it, but he is too strong and heavy.

i am sorry for the description. if it brings back memories or upsets anyone. but these are the basics of rape. lizzie needs to hear this to try and understand how horrendous it actually is. this is not just words on a screen for alot of us, it is real.


i have been thinking about why alot of younger girls and women dress the way they do. it is all for self esteem. it is the only way they know to make themselves feel validated and worthwhile.
the difference is the intention. most go out and love it when they get eyed up or whistled at, it makes them feel good. however that does not translate into they are gagging for it.

it is one thing for a lad to yell (vulgur, yes, but not hurting anyone)
'get ya tits out'
it is a different thing for them to walk over and lift your top up to have a look for himself.

the difference is choice! whatever the intention, everyone has the right to only go as far as they feel comfortable. if that means stoppping short of full sex then that is what should be respected.

Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: SINSULL
Date: 16 Feb 10 - 12:44 PM

"You obviously think it's just fine for her to behave however she wants, and to hell with everyone else. I'm saying it's not."

That is exactly what I am saying. The minute a woman says "No" it is "No".


I am still awaiting a response:

You said:"Blimey, I had no idea I twirled around,let alone suggestively! LOL "
But by your own admission, if a man was driven to rape by your innocent provocative display you would be partially to blame. No?

Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: frogprince
Date: 16 Feb 10 - 12:45 PM

I saw this yesterday, when I had not time to post, so some of this goes back aways:

Mauvepink said, "I stay away from the term provocative clothing as I cannot define what that is". Lonesome E.J. replied, "Oh come on", and described a rather extreme example. Neither of them is talking nonsense. No one would say there is no such thing as provocative clothing. But no one, apart from the mentality of the Taliban, would attempt to define a usable exact borderline between stylish attractive dress and the inappropriate.

Don't take me as in any way excusing assault on a woman because of her clothing or lack of clothing. Even complete nudity, in an inappropriate context, is absolutely no justification for rape.

I will say one thing that may bring some wrath on my head. Regarding a woman going to bed with a man, in a manner that would by all reasonable interpretation imply consent: she retains the right to change her mind, and say no; a man who doesn't respect that should not be held blameless. But if she has led him up to the point of intense arousal, and he doesn't stop, I can't see that he should be judged and penalized to the same degree as a man who has set out with the intention of rape.