BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??

Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: mauvepink
Date: 15 Feb 10 - 06:11 PM

LonesomeEJ... it was me who posted ""I stay away from the term provocative clothing as I cannot define what that is.""

By that I meant I do not seeing clothing in that way. I suspect what many would provocative would rely on a great many factors. Their moral stance, their judging, their holier than though position: all variables that shift the line of what some would call okay and others risque. Likewise. What is 'normal clothing'? Who sets the line?

Of course we know when we see it for ourselves but it is different for most. Even so, no matter what someone wears, should not render them open to rape. In short I do not have a persoanl definition for provocative clothing as I think all is fair if the person wearing it is happy.

If I were to invoke judgements on some clothes it would not start with skimpy tops and mainiskirts. There are soem fashion nightmares out there but.. who am I to judge? I am hardly Mona Lisa so it gives me no right to criticise

Hope this explains what I meant.

mp

Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 15 Feb 10 - 06:13 PM

"Rape is a violent crime. It just happens to have the sex act as the vehicle."

Spot on.

"Statistics say that most victims know the rapist. Which would suggest that dress has little to do with it."

Again - spot on.

Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: mauvepink
Date: 15 Feb 10 - 06:14 PM

"Also the statistics link up provocative dress with self-esteem? How exactly is self-esteem measured? Provocativeness of dress? Just curious."

Interesting question mousethief because I would suspect that by some women wearing some of the clothes they do it actually increases their own self-esteem. Some it's power dressing. Some it's fashion' Some is just who they are. Some have oodles of confidence, some it gives confidence. No-one has a right to decry them for it in my opinion (and I know you are not)

mp

Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: jeddy
Date: 15 Feb 10 - 06:20 PM

ok, i have been avoiding mudcat lately and even when i came back i stayed above the line, and some of the opinions on this thread has shown me i was wise to stay away.

however, this is a subject very close to my heart.

HOW DARE anyone say that rapists have an excuse!!!!!

what does it matter where you are, what you are wearing or not.
what should it matter if you are married?

if there was a woman in the street naked, saying come on then and decided to change her mind, she should be able to do so, without fear.

no one has the right to make you do something that you don't want to do. it should be safe to do, go and dress anyway you want to.

lizzie i am appalled at your reason and logic. how can you be all about freedoms and rights, when the most basic right to respect, you say is tosh?

ake, ok, to explain to am man, (sorry to be patronising). imagine you have left your curtains open and a bit of expansive jewelry on your bed. someone breaks in, not only stealing what is yours but trashes your house and pisses all over your bed as well. not only are you outraged and scared but feel violated as nothing else could make you feel.
you tell your friends whats happened and all you get is a smile and told well you shouldn't have left it out in view.
in priniple, you should be able to have anything in your house and it be safe and secure, no one should have the right to enter your house without you inviting them. if they behave inapropriatly, you have the right to change your mind and throw them out again.

rape is no different, apart from it is to do with a persons body.
it is the attitude of the purportrators that is different of course, from hearing stories, it is the control they desire. provoking fear is all part of the 'buzz'.

i will leave you all to think and give myself time to calm down.

take care all
jade x x

Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: Emma B
Date: 15 Feb 10 - 06:24 PM

From Utah State University Sexual Assault and Anti Violence Information

Myth: Rape victims provoke the attach by wearing provocative clothing -

"A Federal Commission on Crime of Violence Study found that only 4.4% of all reported rapes involved provocative behavior on the part of the victim. -
Most convicted rapists do not remember what their victims were wearing. -
Victims range in age from days old to those in their nineties, hardly provocative dressers."

From research in Arizona -

"Like domestic violence, rape is a crime of power and control. Myths that rape only happens to young, beautiful women wearing provocative clothing perpetuate the idea that rape is a crime of passion, when in fact all women are vulnerable to rape, regardless of age, race, class, education or physical appearance."

Following an Amnesty International national survey in the UK

Spokeswoman Kate Allen said: "The poll shows a shocking proportion of the public blame women for being raped. The Government must launch a new drive to counteract this sexist culture."
The poll highlights public ignorance of the problem as well as the dreadfully low conviction rates"

From Prevention Pathways

"Most sexual assault victims are wearing regular clothes like blue jeans or pajamas when they are assaulted, not provocative clothing"

There is much more of this ......

"Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but not their own facts." - Daniel Patrick Moynihan

Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: Royston
Date: 15 Feb 10 - 06:26 PM

SINSULL: "Royston,
The child appeared on a TV documentary (BBC?) about a school for Somali rape victims and girls rescued from the sex trade. Justice is handed out by Islamic militant tribunals. They are called courts.
SINS"

Thanks for clarifying, I just wanted to be sure that we were talking about the acts of small gangs of stateless murdering gangsters, rather than any recognised or accepted government institution or other social/religious structure.

Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: mauvepink
Date: 15 Feb 10 - 06:33 PM

Many women too, lest we forget, are raped by invading armies. I guess they are 'asking for it' because they happen to live in a warzone.

Forget the clothing issue... forget the alcohol...

There are many reasons rapists rape but most is to do with sheer power and control. Pointinga finger at the victim only gives credence to the rapist and almost makes sure women (or men) will not come forward only to get rapedagain by the legal system and society

mp

Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: mousethief
Date: 15 Feb 10 - 06:43 PM

Pointinga finger at the victim only gives credence to the rapist and almost makes sure women (or men) will not come forward only to get rapedagain by the legal system and society

Very true. If anything is ever going to be done about rape it will only be when its victims feel safe about how they will be treated by the police and courts and media. Bullsh** like the article referred to by the opening post of this thread, and some of the bullsh** that has been sprayed along the way, only makes it harder for rapists to be brought to justice. You might as well be paying bribes directly to the judges to look the other way; that's the effect you're having in the real world. Thanks a fucking heap. You know who you are.

O..O
=o=

Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: GUEST,Member being sensible
Date: 15 Feb 10 - 07:04 PM

LEJ made the comment 'No Women wants to be raped' - I would argue that point , having (some years ago) finally got a lass I really fancied ino bed ! My Ardour was Forcibly quenched when she said "Rape Me ! Rape Me!"
I kid you not , that is a SERIOUS put off !
And no , I didnt

---

This post had been deleted, but I re-instated it once he contacted me and I understood why he'd posted as a guest. -JC

Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: Bill D
Date: 15 Feb 10 - 07:05 PM

"No means No. Rape is rape"

Absolutely.... this needs to be said to both boys & girls at about age 13, and repeated every 6 months for the next 30-40 years. A woman...or girl... is entitled to change her mind..at any point!, but she ought to be aware that there will be men who simply will not respect that rule/law.
We, as a species, are only a few thousand years out of a situation where it was understood that men fought each other for mates, and women accepted the situation....(well, we don't 'know' how many resisted.)

It is illegal to run red lights too, but it is done every day, and it is foolish to head into an intersection without looking to see if any stupid, selfish lawbreakers are coming!

   There is a huge difference between suggesting that rapists have any 'excuse' and noting that women need to exercise judgment about where they go, how they dress and who they associate with. It is just sensible to be aware that some men will not be rational and will not respect the law, changes of mind or common sense. Those millions of years of hormones and urges are still operating, and many men WANT to believe that 'the law shouldn't apply in cases of temptation'. That is why that the law needs to be made crystal-clear to every boy at puberty, and repeated every....ummm... 30 minutes? for the next few decades.
Women are NOT responsible for rape, but they need to be aware that accusations of rape if they have been totally careless will not be viewed well by some judges or juries. That's the way it is!


I don't know if humans... male AND female.. will ever resolve this relic from our evolutionary heritage. All we can really do is make laws, and EDUCATE about those laws, and do what we can to resolve the built in contradictions between the urge to respond TO the opposite sex and the need to have rules about how those urges should be expressed.

Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: GUEST,lillyruben
Date: 15 Feb 10 - 07:11 PM

you know in this day and age do people not understand the word NO or are we still in the dark ages, we will be in the dark ages soon anyway as we have nearly paralyzed the earth never mind paralyzed certain peoples minute brains

Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: Bill D
Date: 15 Feb 10 - 07:17 PM

That comment from 'sensible member' reminded me of the time...maybe 35 years ago... when I was giving a female acquaintance a ride to a party. We had stopped at her place so she could change clothes, and although I cannot remember how the conversation got onto this subject, she told me (paraphrased) " you know, my fantasy is that some guy will just grab me and throw me down and 'take me'...."

then she stopped...looked at me...and added.. "but not anyone who knows about it ahead of time, of course.."

I just grinned at her.. (I was married at the time, and had no designs on her anyway.... and was sort of complimented that she'd trust me with the information.)

Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: jeddy
Date: 15 Feb 10 - 07:22 PM

this seems to be a common fantasy bill.
it is one thing to want to be wanted, to be controlled and dominated BUT this is why couples have codewords! the choice to keep going is always there. i think they might find the reality shockingly different!

jade x x x x x x x

Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 15 Feb 10 - 07:24 PM

"Wasn't it Lizzie who said in a post a long time ago "It costs me a lot of money to look this cheap"?"

Come on, Richard...that was in response to the Facebook BNP person who went on about my hair, make-up etc..and it was a humourous response to a pretty nasty tirade, as WELL you know, you rascal! :0)


"lizzie i am appalled at your reason and logic. how can you be all about freedoms and rights, when the most basic right to respect, you say is tosh?"

Respect yourself first. I am fair fed up with women going around half naked, crude behaviour abounding, drinking themselves under the table and who feel it is there RIGHT to behave however they want. It is not.

If you READ my posts, jade, you'll see that I said there is no excuse for rape, but for any woman to actively put herself into that position is madness.

If you choose to dress like a whore, then you'll be viewed as one. You may not like to hear that, but I'm afraid it's true.

This whole change in women's attitudes and 'rights' came about with the dreaded Girl Power, from which women drew the attitude that they have any right in the world and men have none. It's shit, basically.

My generation was never brought up with that viewpoint..and we knew to look after ourselves, not behave in a sluttish way, not jump into bed with any Tom, Dick or Harry on a first or second date...not to dress like hookers..and not to land up on the pavement unable to get up because of being totally pissed out of our brains.

No, it is no excuse for women to be raped, there is no excuse, but for Gawd's sake girls, get a grip on reality! Stop behaving like spoilt, out of control brats, stick your boobs back inside your tops, wear jeans that actually cover your bums, throw the thongs out the window and start behaving in a far more responsible way.

Yes, you can still get raped by men, but your chances of it are reduced hugely if you ain't out there in 'Hookers R Us' clothes.

Women have rights, but they also have responsibilites, as do men...and it's way past time to put away the Girl Power and start using the Grown Up, Responsible Woman Power instead, that sends the right message out to the right men, instead of the wrong message to the wrong men.

Rapists are in the minority within the male population, and as I stated above, most men would make sure that any man they caught raping a woman would never be able to do that again, because they're decent human beings.

Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: akenaton
Date: 15 Feb 10 - 07:26 PM

Janie... I don't think you understand my meaning.

I wasn't talking about someone stumbling out on to the motorway. I was referring to someone, who knowing the risks, walks out either drunk or with their eyes shut. That person is responsible for their own safety.

Any person who gets drunk and into the house/bed of a stranger is likewise responsible for their own safety.

Saying that does not excuse the crime of rape, but does illustrate the need for a degree of personal responsibility.

Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 15 Feb 10 - 07:27 PM

The understanding of the word 'No' is JUST as important as the understanding of the words 'Personal Responsibility'.

Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: Amergin
Date: 15 Feb 10 - 07:29 PM

The US military is big on blaming the victim. they still consider it as a boys club. I know some one who was in, and was raped by this guy. She was then told that if she pursued it, they will charge her with adultery as he happened to be married.

Sound vaguely familiar?

Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: Amergin
Date: 15 Feb 10 - 07:32 PM

Oh, and Lizzie, your self righteous pap is sickening.

Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: jeddy
Date: 15 Feb 10 - 07:33 PM

ok lizzie you want FACTS?
FACT 1 i am gay!
FACT 2 he KNEW that!
FACT 3 i was wearing normal jeans and a t shirt.
FACT 4 i had known him for a while and had mutual friends.
FACT 5 when i got into bed with him, to sleep might i add, i was wearing knickers and bra and t shirt.

in what way was i dressing like a slut?
in what way, apart from trusting the wrong person, was i asking for it?
before you say anything else, i have slept with men before and since that happened and they have been decent men.

i am not ashamed of anything i post here, it is not my crime to be ashamed of!

Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Feb 10 - 07:36 PM

"I find it astounding to attack the victim by saying it is her fault "
A number of priests who persistently and systematically raped children in their care in Ireland have blamed their victims for putting temptation in their way.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: mousethief
Date: 15 Feb 10 - 07:43 PM

Yes, you can still get raped by men, but your chances of it are reduced hugely if you ain't out there in 'Hookers R Us' clothes.

That's already been disproven. What a woman wears has all but nothing to do with her chances of being raped because it's NOT ABOUT BEING SEXY. It's about POWER.

O..O
=o=

Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: Bill D
Date: 15 Feb 10 - 07:43 PM

**Humans are the only animals who know how to rationalize**

Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: Bill D
Date: 15 Feb 10 - 07:51 PM

Mousethief... I rather think that's way too broad a generalization. It's a serious comment, and way too applicable, but many things enter into all human actions.
The temptation to over-simplify should be watched.

Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: Amergin
Date: 15 Feb 10 - 07:57 PM

Jeddy, nevermind Lizzie...she's just bitter because she has been stranded here for ages....she hopes that someday soon, they will hear her distress beacon, and rescue her...and take her to her home planet.

Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: jeddy
Date: 15 Feb 10 - 08:00 PM

thanks amergin..PMSL!!!

take care x x x x x x x x

Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: SINSULL
Date: 15 Feb 10 - 09:29 PM

Jeddy makes an excellent point.
There are a number of women here on Mudcat who have been raped, some quite violently. None that I know of were dressed provocatively; none were impaired by alcohol or in a place where they should not have been.
True to statistics, most were attacked by someone they knew but at least two by total strangers.
The statistics and research show that rape is a crime of power not lust. The rapist is not "attracted" to his victim. He wants to exert power over her.
Read a paper once in a while - middle-aged and elderly women are targeted. Young mothers in the sight of their children are targeted. Most women are raped by aomeone they know - more often than not a spouse or significant other.
Nuns have been raped in their convent.
Most rapes go unreported - as much as 59% in the US although I don't know how they figure that.
As a rape victim, I am appalled at some of the comments made here. I pray that you never have to endure the pain and humiliation as well as the years of nightmares and fear that a violent rape produces. The man who raped me also molested several little boys before he started stalking women. I was not his first. I was the only one who fought to have the case heard. He was found guilty of robbery and imprisoned for three months because he had stolen my purse at gunpoint. Without a third party to confirm the rape, it could not be presented in court - NYC law at the time.
By the way, I was two houses from my home. I was wearing a pea coat and slacks - loose fitting. It was snowing heavily so I was wrapped in a wool scarf, gloves, boots - very suggestive costume - and carrying an assortment of shopping bags. I guess I deserve what I got.

Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: jeddy
Date: 15 Feb 10 - 09:39 PM

well said sinsull!! you have nothing to be ashamed of hunny. be brave, and try to thnk if anything posotive has come out of it.
take care.
hugs
jade x x x x x

Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: jeddy
Date: 15 Feb 10 - 09:44 PM

i should point out that aterwards, i was terrified. it was ages until i saw him again. i called his name, he looked round and we locked eyes and i wasn't afraid.
still messed up though, so i went to another city and there met my true love. it hasn't always been plain sailing, but worth every heartache to get here.

some people aren't as lucky as i have been and my heart goes out to them.
take care all
love
jade x x x x x x x

Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: Janie
Date: 15 Feb 10 - 10:52 PM

Ake, I did not mistake your meaning at all.   Your analogy still does not hold. I do not consider that men are like drivers in a vehicle unable to stop fast enough to avoid hitting the person who steps blindfolded into traffic.    Thing is, the driver in that instance, is very likely to have to deal with irrational self-blame. The driver is responsible for driving responsibly, but it is never possible, no matter how responsible one is, to eliminate all risk.   No one drives completely responsibly. We are not robots. We can not do perfect risk assessments of every situation. To get into a vehicle, whether as driver or as passenger, is to take risks.



There is a world of difference between blame and responsibility, but it is a difference that many, if not most, people do not get. I spend a lot of time in therapy sessions on working with people to get them to the place they can make the distinction. I mostly work with people who have experienced significant trauma, mostly with men and women who were physically and/or sexually abused as children, but also with people who have experienced adult trauma, mostly domestic violence, assault, rape, or bad vehicle accidents. Some of these people are also abusive in their adult relationships or with their own children.




I think the results reported in the survey mp posted about and linked to reflect 1. the difficulty people have sorting out the difference between blame and responsibility, 2. complex psychological defenses, and psychosocial defenses deployed by victims and those vulnerable to victimization, and by aggressors and those with enough power to be the aggressor (physical, psychological or social) which result in a collusion (spelling?) to maintain a power structure.

Anybody ever read "The Color Purple"?

Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: Janie
Date: 15 Feb 10 - 11:39 PM

Not several, Sins - many. If one were to do a survey on just this small forum of women who have been raped, assaulted, and/or who were sexually abused as children, I think all of us would be astonished, myself included, and I would probably predict a higher percentage than most. ( I also think if one were to do a survey of men on this forum who experienced sexual abuse as children, we would all be astonished at the numbers.)

Not saying only incest, saying sexual abuse, which includes inappropriate touching or invitations to touch, or watching an adult or older child (teen) masturbate, etc. Some here are incest survivors. Many more encountered a neighbor, uncle, aunt, trusted family friend, older brother on drugs, or a friend of an older brother or sister - maybe just once-maybe a "near miss" physically but a bulls-eye psychologically, or maybe on-going over years-made possible because of the real vulnerabilities, physically, culturally, and psychologically, due to differences in power and/or authority.

That it why it is so important to reinforce that No means No where authority over the body is concerned.   

Rape is a crime of power and control, whether it is about physical power and control or psychological power and control. Childhood abuse, be it sexual, physical or psychological, is about the same thing.

Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: Bert
Date: 16 Feb 10 - 12:01 AM

...That person is responsible for their own safety...

What you are really saying is that it is OK to assault that person because they are being stupid. Just remember that the next time you do something stupid.

Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: Janie
Date: 16 Feb 10 - 12:14 AM

Thank you, Bert, for cutting right to the chase, and being spot on when you do so.

Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: Janie
Date: 16 Feb 10 - 12:22 AM

Although I don't know that Ake and the village idiot realize that is what they are saying.

Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: Ebbie
Date: 16 Feb 10 - 12:29 AM

Juneau's Buddy Tabor wrote a line in his song 'Meadowlark' that wrenches my heart:

'Innocence taken at the point of a knife
Child alone in a tearful night'

Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 16 Feb 10 - 02:26 AM

Lizzie - " but chances are it'll happen to you less if you have self respect, don't put yourself into crazy situations, and are very much 'street aware'"   

Complete, total and utter bollocks.

You ever been raped?

Don't pontificate unless you have the experience to back it up.

LTS

Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 16 Feb 10 - 02:48 AM

And before you ask, yes... someone I knew, someone I trusted, I was fully and conservatively clothed, stone cold sober, it was broad daylight and an open, residential area in a pleasant English village.

LTS

Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 16 Feb 10 - 02:48 AM

I think you are overstating that, LTS. Sorry about your experiences: but one doesn't need to experience every misfortune going to have empathy with those who have suffered them; neither does such a lack disqualify one from expressing a rational opinion as to how they might best be avoided, even tho one might know that such evasive action is never going to be completely foolproof.   

To declare an interest ~ my wife was once screwed against her will while staying overnight without me with some old and, we thought, dear friends in London once. I didn't find out about it till after that friend was dead, so never had the chance to confront him about it. I still feel badly about the whole thing, and so did my wife until the end of her life. But I don't feel that this experience at, as it were, second hand, gives me any more right to express an opinion on this thread than another guy whose wife was never thus taken unwilling advantage of. And so on, right up to those who have had the genuine, full-on misfortune we are discussing.

Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: Folkiedave
Date: 16 Feb 10 - 03:41 AM

Jeddy, nevermind Lizzie...she's just bitter because she has been stranded here for ages....she hopes that someday soon, they will hear her distress beacon, and rescue her...and take her to her home planet.

She is part of Mudcat's "Care in the Community Programme". And I have to tell you there are chunks of her own planet that don't want her back.

Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: mauvepink
Date: 16 Feb 10 - 03:42 AM

Whilst I posted the topic to create discussion on a very important subject, I can only apologise if anything that has come from it has opened old wounds or caused upset for some. That was NOT my intention in any way and my jeart goes out to those who have been involved in such horrible crimes against them.

We are only a small group and see how many have actually been attacked. This would suggest it is a far greater crime in numbers than any statistics would show and vastly under-reported.

Cyber hugs to the brave one's who have spoken out. Am sorry if this has hit you. Good luck for the future too :-)

mp

Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: Royston
Date: 16 Feb 10 - 03:51 AM

Sorry Lizzie Cornish. Well, I'm not sorry really. I have to pick you up on a point referenced by someone else.

A few weeks ago you accused 2bn Muslims of being vile, backward, degenerate woman-hating heathens (or words to that effect) because you said that they forced women to cover themselves against their will and to behave in certain ways in order to be controlled or so as not to be raped by the evil Muslim men.

Now, here, we find you arguing that, errm, women should cover themselves up so that they don't get raped, and that they bring it on themselves if they fail to do so and/or act in certain ways you regard as problematic.

Hmm, interesting. It would be funny if you weren't so harmful and offensive with your accusations.

Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: Genie
Date: 16 Feb 10 - 04:14 AM

I think people in general, from childhood, need to have it explained very clearly that a crime against another person is still a crime, even if that other person was being careless or acting in such a way as to tempt that action. This means if you invite someone into your home and show them your jewelry -- maybe even promise to give them some of it -- if they then take that jewelry without your express permission, that's theft. A crime. If someone staggers drunk out into the street and you hit them with your car when you clearly could have avoided that if you chose to, you could still be charged with either negligent homicide, manslaughter or even first-degree murder, if you either deliberately ran them down or made absolutely no effort to stop or swerve.   If someone taunts you, calls you names, insults your mother, and even yells "Hey! You want a piece of me!?" you are still guilty of battery if you throw the first punch, when you could have simply walked away.   And if I leave my brand new Mercedez (Yeah, like I really have one! lol) parked in a "bad neighborhood" with the keys in the ignition, my insurance company may refuse to pay in full when (not "if") it gets stolen, and they may even drop my coverage, but the law still says that's felony theft.

Rape is the only crime I can think of where many people seem to think the victim's carelessness, provocation, stupidity, etc. somehow totally negates the crime.   And I think that stems partly from the mistaken belief that being raped "isn't all that bad;" from the attitude that women are inherently evil temptresses who make men want to sin; from the belief that "a stiff prick has no conscience or self-control" (Try setting of the fire alarm and see how quickly a guy's physiological urges can shift gears.); or from the idea that, in a dating relationship or marriage, a woman couldn't have any good reason for changing her mind once foreplay began.   

Again, we generally don't apply 'logic' like that to other crimes against people.


Of course we need to teach women how to avoid and/or protect themselves from attacks, sexual and otherwise, and do what they can not to be victims.   Women also need to understand how difficult it is -- and should be -- to prove rape when (as is usually the case) there are no witnesses nor evidence of "consent" and "coercion" after the fact. And both girls and boys need to understand that falsely crying "rape" is itself a serious assault on another person.   But that should never, ever mean that a crime is "OK" just because it was committed against someone who was acting irresponsibly.

Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 16 Feb 10 - 04:15 AM

Come on, Royston. Parameters may be argued ad inf ~ but surely you can see the diffce between wearing a 'Spank my bare bottom please, I am such a naughty girl!' T-shirt & being forced to cover up every inch except the eyes in hot thick black blankets. Give poor old Lizzie a bit of a fair deal, now.

Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: GUEST,Lizzie Cornish
Date: 16 Feb 10 - 04:18 AM

Yup, lots of pain in this thread...but your cases are not the ones I'm talking about.


What is so worrying to me is that we are not educating our young female population to be aware. We seem to be educating them almost to tease, to dress like any rapists fantasy, to entice, to behave highly inappropriately and then...to scream their heads off when things go horribly wrong.   

"if there was a woman in the street naked, saying come on then and decided to change her mind, she should be able to do so, without fear."

Well, yes and no. She should also realise how bloody stupid she's being, and how naive too. In an ideal world, that would work, but in the real world, it doesn't. If you lead someone on to believe that you want something, are 'gagging' for it, then change your mind at the last moment, chances are, you're going to get a reaction you may not like.

Is it not best to be aware FIRST that you don't lead anyone to that point in the first place if you are not totally serious?



"no one has the right to make you do something that you don't want to do. it should be safe to do, go and dress anyway you want to."

But it isn't, jade. It simply isn't. And as you know, it can happen to people who aren't dressed suggestively. The chances of it happening if you ARE dressed that way therefore increase greatly.

WHY would any woman want to walk around dressed in such a suggestive manner in the first place? It's always puzzled me. Is it purely because they're so brainwashed that they'll follow any fashion going? Or do they really want to be so arrogant that they think they should be able to dress and behave however they want and remain completely untouchable?

IF you lead someone on, then cry wolf and it goes wrong, horribly so, then you have to take some responsibility for putting yourself into a highly dangerous situation in the first place. No, it is not your fault that someone may rape you, that is their decision and the line they choose to cross, but by behaving crudely, dressing provocatively and drinking to excess you ARE putting yourself in the frontline of danger.

Tell me, would you put your hand on a handle that said "Danger of Death, 350,000 vaults!" then say, but I *wanted* to put my hand there, it was my *right*!"   No, you knew the risks and wouldn't dream of putting your hand on there...


But we should be teaching our young women to stay as safe as they can, to behave in a responsible fashion.

Alternatively, we can carry on as we are, encourage our young women to drink themselves senseless, be crude, dress like hookers, lead men on, then turn around and slap in the face when things get out of hand....but is that any way for women to get men to have respect for them?

Don't get me wrong, rape is inexcusable, I absolutely agree with that...and my punishment for rapists who deliberately set out to prowl the streets searching for their victims cannot even be put down on this page.

But this modern day attitude of 'it's my right to behave however I want and men can't touch me for it!' needs to be looked at in far more depth.

No, I don't hate women...but I hate what has happened to them. I hate how they've allowed it to happen because this is not what equality is about.

Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: GUEST,Lizzie Cornish
Date: 16 Feb 10 - 04:28 AM

The majority of Muslim women have respect for their bodies, for themselves. This is however changing as more and more young British Muslim women want to dress as their friends do, and I'd imagine it's a constant source of anxiety to their parents.


Whatever made you think that I'd imagine they'd go from Burkhas to Bras?

Whatever made you think that I'd imagine that Muslim women would start walking the streets with thongs hanging out above their jeans, or boobs pushed up to their eyebrows, using suggestive language and eyeing every man up and down in the most appalling 'ladette' fashion, whilst swigging from a wine bottle, or two?

You can dress beautifully as a woman you know, without showing your cleavage and bum.

Afghan women should have the choice of being free to do exactly that....and if they want to dress in a slightly more modern fashion then yes, they should be free to do that too, but if they suddenly start dressing like sluts, then they have to take on the same responsibility as western women should be doing.

Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: goatfell
Date: 16 Feb 10 - 04:45 AM

it takes two

Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 16 Feb 10 - 04:56 AM

I am in wholehearted agreement with the no means no lobby and there is no excuse whatsoever for rape. I would like to hear views on the following scenario. Young couple meet in the disco. They are attracted. Both have too much to drink and end up having sexual intercourse. Neither can remember much about it and neither knows with any certaintly if either of them said yes. OK - I know it is a real corner case and may or may not ever happen. But in that case did a rape occur and if so, who raped who?

DeG

Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 16 Feb 10 - 05:02 AM

"The chances of it happening if you ARE dressed that way therefore increase greatly."

Where is your evidence of this? Emma B presented research earlier in the thread which demonstrates that dressing "provocatively" is not linked to the majority of rape cases.

"WHY would any woman want to walk around dressed in such a suggestive manner in the first place? It's always puzzled me."

Well, many people might wonder why you wear face glitter and all that eyeliner and twirl around suggestively in front of bands when everyone else is sitting down and watching a concert, but is it their place to judge you? Some people would consider that behaviour to be sexually provocative, attention-seeking and inappropriate. Does that mean any man has the right to decide that your behaviour implies that you are cheap and sexually available, and that you deserve to be raped? Of course not. But for someone who always screeches about their personal freedoms, you are terrible for wanting to curtail the freedoms of others.

This idea that your generation never dressed in a provocative way is ridiculous as well. Everything is relative. I'm sure your mother (or her friends) probably thought girls walking around in miniskirts in the 60s looked like prostitutes. Standards and fashions change through the generations, and what is acceptable in one generation is beyond the pale for another (usually older) one. Twas always thus. I don't particularly like seeing half-naked girls in town centres, but I worry more about them catching their death than provoking a man to rape them - and if they were attacked, I certainly wouldn't think they had brought it upon themselves simply for dressing the way they do.

And if we're collecting statistics re abuse, you can add me. I don't really want to go into the details of what happened to me here, but I can assure you that, as a 12 year old, I was neither dressed provocatively nor inviting assault. nevertheless, it took me more than 20 years to finally accept that what had happened to me WAS NOT MY FAULT, IN ANY WAY. Women who are attacked or abused often spend many years trying to figure out what they could have done to prevent what happened to them, and trying not to feel somehow guilty or complicit. The last thing we need is some bitter, gum-sucking old bat telling us how men get such a bad deal these days, and women bring everything upon themselves. Screw you, Lizzie.

Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: Emma B
Date: 16 Feb 10 - 05:55 AM

"rapists who deliberately set out to prowl the streets searching for their victims"

Lizzie I too am coming to the belief that you don't live in just some alternative world but are actually from another planet entirely

While 'stranger rape' does occur the majority of women are likely to be raped by someone they are acquainted with

For someone who invents their own mythical past maybe you are unaware of the attention that has been focused on the issue of 'acquaintance rape' which has emerged as part of the growing willingness to acknowledge and address issues associated with domestic violence and the rights of women in general in the past 30 years and are ignorant of the scholarly research done by psychologist Mary Koss and her colleagues which is widely recognized as the primary impetus for raising awareness.

The results of Koss' research were the basis of the book by Robin Warshaw, first published in 1988, entitled 'I Never Called it Rape'.


An attempt to address David's question of 04:56 AM also demands examining important legal decisions and changes in legal definitions of rape.

For example -
'Until recently, clear physical resistance was a requirement for a rape conviction in California.
A 1990 amendment now defines rape as sexual intercourse "where it is accomplished against a person's will by means of force, violence, duress, menace, or fear of immediate and unlawful bodily injury."
The important additions are "menace" and "duress," as they include consideration of verbal threats and implied threat of force

In addition, a prior or current relationship between the victim and the accused is not sufficient to imply consent. Most states also have provisions which prohibit the use of drugs and/or alcohol to incapacitate a victim, rendering the victim unable to deny consent.'

So, 'acquaintance rape' remains a controversial topic because of lack of agreement upon the definition of 'consent.'


David G. Curtis, Ph.D., B.C.E.T.S. writing on 'Social Perspectives on Acquaintance Rape' for the American Academy of Experts in Traumatic Stress states

"Views on acquaintance rape also appear quite capable of creating opposing camps. Despite the violent nature of acquaintance rape, the belief that many victims are actually willing, consenting participants is held by both men and women alike.
"Blaming the victim" seems to be an all too prevalent reaction to acquaintance rape. Prominent authors have espoused this idea in editorial pages, Sunday Magazine sections, and popular journal articles.
It has also been implied that a natural state of aggression between men and women is normal, and that any woman who would go back to a man's apartment after a date is "an idiot."
While there may be a certain degree of cautionary wisdom in the latter part of this statement, such views have been criticized for being overly simplistic and for simply submitting to the problem."

The whole article
is well worth reading but to pick out just a couple more conclusions

"Being in familiar surroundings does not provide security. Most acquaintance rapes take place in either the victim's or the assailant's home, apartment, or dormitory."

"It is often expressed that direct and indirect messages given to boys and young men by our culture about what it means to male (dominant, aggressive, uncompromising) contribute to creating a mindset which is accepting of sexually aggressive behavior……
Buying into stereotypical attitudes regarding sex roles tends to be associated with justification of intercourse under any circumstances"

Koss's study of acquaintance rape on campus found taking drugs or alcohol is commonly associated with sexual aggression and, of the men who were identified as having committed acquaintance rape, 75 percent had taken drugs or alcohol just prior to the rape

Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 16 Feb 10 - 07:25 AM

Fortunately the English law is somewhat more forward looking.

And although I am surprised to see that Lizzie has forgotten her hormones (no pun intended) it is surely obvious that most people want to be attractive to their preferred gender, and frequently dress and behave to maximise the choice of offers that they may choose to accept.

Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 16 Feb 10 - 07:38 AM

Any answer to the question I posed, Richard?

DeG