BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 22 Feb 10 - 04:26 AM

I think what Lizzie is saying, is that by "getting where they are", women have perhaps lost more than they have gained?

If so, I tend to agree with her.

So do I, Ake, in some ways, but I don't see what bearing it has on the point in question. Are we to believe that emancipation has led to a higher incidence of rape or has contributed to it somehow? I can sort of accept that but not in the way previously discussed. I can see that some men, very few I hope, would be threatened by the 'new woman' and use rape to regain some of the lost power. If that is the case then, yes, liberation of woman has contributed. It is still not the victims fault though and if that is a possibility, no matter how vague, then these few men who feel that way should be educated before they do go too far. Better than blaming the victim surely?

Cheers

DeG

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 22 Feb 10 - 06:17 AM

Dave, it is really indefensible to say that women have lost more than they have gained through emancipation and feminism, in any measure or respect. Yes, our lives can be tough; but were they harder when we were considered property, couldn't vote, were denied education, had no choice but to work as unpaid servants in the home, were expected to obey our husbands at all times, rape within marriage was considered an impossibility, we were told what to wear and how to behave? Of course not. Yes, there are prices to be paid for our freedom; I have often said, as a working mother within marriage and, more recently, as a divorced single parent, that all we ever seem to do - as women, as families - is trade one set of compromises for another. You just have to hope you find the one that works best for you and your family. But one of the problems women face in trying to balance all the demands and priorities in their lives is that the men in their lives do not necessarily accept their fair share of the burden of housekeeping and child-rearing (present company excepted, I'm sure). Studies show, as a small example, that something like 75% of housework is still done by women, even in households where both partners work. In my marriage (to someone who would have considered himself quite enlightened politically and socially) I did 100% of the cooking and about 90% of the domestic work - whether I was a stay-at-home mum, working part time, studying for my degree, or trying to maintain a full-time career. It wasn't feminism that made life hard - it was being married to a man whose mother had basically raised him to believe that boys don't do housework, and if he ignored it long enough, someone else would come along and clean up after him. Of course, it was also my fault for letting him behave that way for 15 years.

Some men may feel "threatened by the 'new woman' and use rape to regain some of the lost power". But not only are the victims of rape not to blame for this - *neither is feminism*. If a man takes out his own feelings of inadequacy and resentment on a woman, the fault and blame lie squarely with him, not with her.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 22 Feb 10 - 06:37 AM

Aye - Sorry Ruth. I thought I was just agreeing that something may have been lost but the comment is unequivacaly 'lost more than gained' which, as you say, is blatantly untrue.

I did say I agree in some ways by which I meant that the loss of some romantacised idea of respect or chivalry could be seen as a loss by some people. In no way does that excel or even come close to the gains that have been made.

I am in full agreement with the last paragraph as well. That is what I was trying to get across but obviously less succinctly!

Cheers

DeG

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: Emma B
Date: 22 Feb 10 - 07:31 AM

Ah yes the 'loss of chivalry'

The concept of 'Romantic love' can be traced back to feudal chivalry where a fair maiden would be worshipped (from afar) as a 'symbol' of feminine beauty and virtue rather than a real person

Whatever turned into reality was really no longer this form of romanticized 'love'

Such courtly love remained an ideal and could actually never manifest itself sexually where there is no obstruction by distance etc often one has to be 'invented'

European and American culture constantly programs us to want 'romantic love'; our culture is preoccupied with it.
It's the most frequent theme in our music, literature, movies...even our fairy tales.

The classic model is Tristan (the quintessential white knight in shining armour) and Isolde

Continuing through Shakespeare's Romeo and Juliet and the more up to date Titanic 'romantic love' rarely is portrayed as long lasting or a psychologically balanced relationship

There's nothing surer than if a couple begin a film madly in love one or both of them will die :)

Romantic films subtly censor taking out the trash, washing dishes concentrating instead on overcoming the barriers and obstacles to being together

Robert Johnson even argues that, in our culture
'it has supplanted religion as the arena in which men and women seek meaning transcendence wholeness and ecstasy'

Well give me companionate love and affection please I feel it is more conducive to a long and happy partnership.
It's particulary scary that so so many marriages based on the myth of Romantic love end in divorce after just a few years

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: Bert
Date: 22 Feb 10 - 08:31 AM

It is not just a matter of consent.

It is a matter of NO means NO and STOP means STOP. Whatever the situation, even the situation I mentioned above.

NO means NO and STOP means STOP even if consent has been given and you've already started. No exceptions and no excuses.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 22 Feb 10 - 10:38 AM

Hey Lox - I've ridden a tandem, both in front and behind... I'd rather have (consensual) sex any day!

And I'm pretty sure Tristan and Isolde wouldn't have stood a chance if she'd got a whiff of his armour after he'd farted in it.

My brain has turned to a bag of gravy soaked mashed potato after reading all this... I'm off for some chocolate and a snuggle with the cat - it's safer!

LTS

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: Emma B
Date: 22 Feb 10 - 12:35 PM

Having ascertained, I hope, that the majority of rapes are actually perpetrated by an acquaintance and not some deranged stalker and that legally/morally the area of 'implied consent' still remains for some people a grey area it was inevitable, I suppose, that the concept of consent was never more controversial than in the marital bed.

The idea of 'spousal rape' or non-consensual sex in which the perpetrator is the victim's spouse.is not new to anyone who has worked with victims of domestic violence.

Marital rape is likely to be part of an abusive relationship.
Trauma from the rape adds to the effect of other abusive acts or abusive and demeaning talk.
Furthermore, marital rape, unlike 'stranger' rape, is rarely a one-time event, but a repeated if not frequent occurrence


Keith Marsden in his song 'Willy 'Ole Lad' has a father warning his daughter about the possibility when 'romance' has worn thin with the responsibilities and difficulties of frequent child bearing etc


When it's always your fault with the nagging and the beer makes him nasty and bad,
When you lie there and dread that he'll want you in bed, will you still love your Willy-'Ole lad?

So if you want my consent to wed him, lass, I fear you'll be wanting a while.
If it's him that you meet at the altar, then it won't be my arm down the aisle.
Just cherish your grace for a while, lass, and dream silly dreams while you can.
When you've spent all your youth, you'll have long years for truth, with your lad still a Willy-'Ole man.


A web site giving information about domestic violence recognizes the conditioned feelings of blame / responsibility many women in these relationships have

"We prefer to see it possibly as a communication problem (did I make it clear enough that I did not want intercourse tonight),
we may see it as an act for which the man is not fully responsible due to his nature (men have a biological need to have sex and if there is a woman next to them in bed when they are in the mood they just cannot help it),
we may see it as a misunderstanding (although I told him I didn't want to, maybe I gave him the wrong signals somehow),
we may have religious issues which question our right to refuse intercourse (I have got to submit myself to him and accept his will above mine as my Lord and Master).


Although as the concept of human rights has developed, the belief of a marital right to sexual intercourse has become less widely held Marital Rape was only made a criminal act in the UK in 1991
Up until then it was considered impossible for a man to rape or sexually assault his wife.
To quote:
"A husband cannot rape his wife unless the parties are seperated or the court has by injunction forbidden him to interfere with his wife or he has given an undertaking in court no to interfere with her."

Countries that have not made spousal rape a criminal offence -
Afghanistan, Bahamas, Bangladesh, Ethiopia, Tanzania, Zambia

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: akenaton
Date: 22 Feb 10 - 04:48 PM

Ruth and David... my remarks about my view of what Lizzie was saying, were a bit off topic and I apologise for that.

However perhaps I could explain what I meant.

I feel women may be better off and better educated today....well those with the chance to take up higher education may be, but as far as a making a "career for themselves" is concerned women have simply swopped "slavery" to their children and home, for slavery to the economic system.

Many women are now the main breadwinners in a family and as such are manipulated into mortgages, insurances, credit and all the tricks used by capitalism to rob people of a life.

Many women have also lost their most precious purpose, the nurturing of their children.

Every where we see children, even young babies dumped in creches, left with father, or dumped on long suffering relatives.

All this, not to emancipate women, but to confinethem in the same shackles filled by their hasbands for so long.

If women really want to be free to fulfill themselves completely, then, as in every other facet of life, the system must be changed.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: Emma B
Date: 22 Feb 10 - 05:11 PM

Well ake - as you may conclude I would go along with the Marxist approach as I'm a feminist who believes the historical opression of women is not rooted in the 'nature' of men.

Some of my best friends are men :)

It is a social not a biological phenomenon.

The family unit as we know it today has not always existed and I also believe social systems must be radically changed for the establishment of real human relations between men and women.

Meanwhile, I do have friends who, for purely economic reasons,(yeah I know - the reality of mortgages, insurances etc) have reversed the main parental role in the care of their children very sucessfully; and, far from a situation of being 'left with father', these men have also found a 'purpose' although maybe outside the normal gender assigned roles.

So until the revolution .........

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: akenaton
Date: 22 Feb 10 - 05:27 PM

Gaun yersell wee yin!

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 22 Feb 10 - 05:42 PM

"I feel women may be better off and better educated today....well those with the chance to take up higher education may be,"

Even if I hadn't gone to university I still would have been better off and better educated than my grandmother and her sisters, who left school at 12.

"but as far as a making a "career for themselves" is concerned women have simply swopped "slavery" to their children and home, for slavery to the economic system."

Well, I trained to work in a sector that I absolutely love. But even for my mum, having a career (even one she didn't like that much) meant having her own money, and the freedom to spend it on the things she enjoyed doing - not having to rely on my father to decide what he thought was best for her. When I compare that to my ex-mother-in-law, who got a housekeeping allowance from her husband every week when her children were growing up...earning your own money is, by comparison, incredibly liberating.

"Many women are now the main breadwinners in a family and as such are manipulated into mortgages, insurances, credit and all the tricks used by capitalism to rob people of a life."

In those times before women had careers, these things still hung over us. The husband took on the mortgages, credit, insurance etc, and the wife had to support him in every way possible to ensure he could go out and earn his wage. If the husband didn't meet the family's financial commitments, a wife might take in washing or do a whole host of hard, inflexible and poorly-paid jobs to make ends meet, in addition to looking after the home and the children.

"Many women have also lost their most precious purpose, the nurturing of their children."

This idea of the stay-at home mother who had nothing better to do than look after her home and raise her children is a relatively recent construct - especially where the working classes are concerned. Go to the National Trust's Back-to-Back museum in Birmingham, and you can see how working-class women took on all sorts of work, much of it light industry or piece-work which could be done at home. In the countryside round where I live, they would have sewed stockings or done frame-knitting in their cottages. The work was demanding because the levels of production required were high. So, far from sitting beatifically around the fire and teaching and nurturing their children, women in the past were working hard to maintain their homes and often taking on extra work to supplement their husband's wages. Meanwhile, their kids were running wild in the towns and the countryside, pretty much dragging themselves up.

"Every where we see children, even young babies dumped in creches, left with father, or dumped on long suffering relatives."

As I have pointed out previously, plus ca change. Of course, in the past many generations lived in one house and the older generation often helped in a more hands-on way to raise the younger ones - there was no real concept of the "long-suffering" relatives. It was just part of life. Moreover, nowadays flexible working is becoming far more common, so there is a lot more home-working and flexi-time than there would have been even a decade ago.


"All this, not to emancipate women, but to confinethem in the same shackles filled by their hasbands for so long."

Well, I would argue that instead of having to do poorly-paid, unskilled work, women can now choose degrees that interest them and well-paid careers which, quite often, they love. For example, both I and my ex-husband have eventually chosen to work freelance, meaning that our time is very flexible, we are around quite a lot, and our daughter gets fantastic benefits from both of our careers (she goes to festivals because of my job, and travels the world because of her dad's). Importantly, my financial independence and ability to maintain my own household meant that, when my marriage finally failed, neither my husband nor I was trapped, geographically or financially, in a situation neither of us wanted. We could separate reasonably amicably, and were able to move on with our lives. In the past, one of the reasons for the lower divorce rates is that many women couldn't afford to leave, nor would many men have been able to financially sustain two households. And a household where two parents are miserable, even at each other's throats, and are only still together because they can't afford to separate, is no place to raise children.

"If women really want to be free to fulfill themselves completely, then, as in every other facet of life, the system must be changed."

Well, that's the case for men too, surely. But until we overthrow capitalism, we'll all just have to soldier on, making those compromises I mentioned earlier and doing our best.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: akenaton
Date: 22 Feb 10 - 06:17 PM

Well as you personally are doing so well.....I dont expect to see you on the barricades!

You are obviously representative of the working women in my strata of society.....call centres, cleaning and home care assistants are the norm on my side of the tracks!

Basically, they are doing the job they always did, only exchanging the pleasurable bits(like enjoying seeing their children grow) for money on loan!

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: akenaton
Date: 22 Feb 10 - 06:26 PM

That should be NOT representative.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: Folkiedave
Date: 22 Feb 10 - 07:44 PM

Well as you personally are doing so well.....I dont expect to see you on the barricades!

Basically, they are doing the job they always did, only exchanging the pleasurable bits(like enjoying seeing their children grow) for money on loan!

What an incredibly patronising piece of garbage to write.

Reading what she has written, I would expect to see both her and her daughter on the barricades.

Or you could put it another way. You could say "I haven't read or understood a word she has written".

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 22 Feb 10 - 08:19 PM

It is really incredibly simple, for any man with an ounce of concern for the opposite sex.

1. She says NO! (at any point in the proceedings).....STOP!
2. She says yes, but you know it's the liquor talking....STOP!
3. She is unconscious, and incapable of saying NO!....STOP!

4. She says YES, and enthusiastically joins in the preliminaries (however short), and does not object to consumation of the act....PROCEED!

In the case of 1, 2, and 3, to proceed is RAPE!
In the case of 4, if she later complains, she is the criminal!

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 22 Feb 10 - 10:16 PM

Thank you. Don, for bringing the thread back to its actual topic when it had drifted into "feminism/employment·for·women &c".

It seems to me that there are two issues which have not been sufficiently discriminated thruout the thread. Look at the thread title again, & distinguish, please, between "blame", the word the OP used; and "guilt", the word with which it has been persistently confused to muddy the issue.

No-one has disagreed that Rape is a 'Crime', an enormity committed agaist the victim, and that no man committing it by insisting on subjecting an unwilling woman to intercourse can be other than absolutely and indisputably guilty of it. So much for "GUILT".

But it has surely been repeatedly demonstrated also that however GUILTY the perpetrator may be, the extent to which the victim might be regarded as BLAMEWORTHY for the outcome can vary enormously according to the circumstances.

That is the distinction some of us have been trying to draw; ~~~ and I repeat that I do not think enough attention has been paid to these two distinctions: i.e. that between 'Guilt & 'Blame'; and that between the degree of either to be attributed in each and every specific case.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: Janie
Date: 23 Feb 10 - 12:30 AM

Sounds like this thread has shifted to another topic, probably should be a separate thread.

Good post, Ruth.

Ake, I don't think you are a "bad guy", but your posts often suggest you operate from a paradigm that includes many unexamined and/or over-generalized assumptions. Or perhaps it is that you are prone to dichotomous thinking. Go back and re-read Ruth's post objectively.   She provided a well-informed opinion, backed up by well-documented information.

Most women have always labored, and hard. Rarely have those labors been confined to "the task of nurturing our children."

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 23 Feb 10 - 03:06 AM

"Many women have also lost their most precious purpose, the nurturing of their children."

Lol!

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 23 Feb 10 - 04:00 AM

I do not think enough attention has been paid to these two distinctions: i.e. that between 'Guilt & 'Blame'

Pure semantics, MtheGM. OK - We can agree that linguisticaly, maybe even legaly, there is a difference but as long as the blame argument is used in defense of the perpetrator, which it is, the victim will feel guilt. This should not be the case but unfortunately, in the current system, it is. Reports like the one from which the thread title stemmed do nothing to help resolve the issues that have been discussed throughout. Why should the victim be made to feel responsible because the perpetrator could not control his (or her!) libido?

DeG

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 23 Feb 10 - 05:04 AM

I don't think it is a purely semantic argument, David. If all rape victims are to be equally pitied, does it not detract from the proper sympathy for, & rage that should be felt on behalf of, the victim of a real brutal stranger-rape ~ the very worst sort ~ to equate it with absolutely no emotional distinction to what we feel for a last-minute-mind-change prick-tease? I think you are showing less of the feelings called for to the victims of the former by over-sympathising with those of the latter. The man is at fault in both cases also, sure ~ but not, surely to the very same degree of culpability?

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 23 Feb 10 - 05:21 AM

The man is at fault in both cases also, sure ~ but not, surely to the very same degree of culpability?

I think we will just have to disagree on that one, M. I have said before that I DO believe there can be mitigation and therefrore less culpability in cases of murder and theft. Someone may feel threatened enough to kill another person or may steal to ensure that he or his family can live. That is mitigation because the perpetrators life or close ones were at risk. I do NOT however believe that there can be any sensible mitigation in a rape case. Frustrated libido is no excuse as far as I am concerned but I am willing to concede that other people may disagree. In fact, as I have also pointed out before, you do have the law behind you because the judiciary agree!

DeG

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 23 Feb 10 - 05:33 AM

We don't disagree all that much, I don't think, David. But do you not agree that some victims deserve more sympathy than others? I don't think it fair to the victims of the worst sorts (you will surely agree that some are worse than others) should not receive more pity/sympathy/empathy/whichever·such·term·one·may·choose than... Well, you take my point about this at least, surely?

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 23 Feb 10 - 05:45 AM

I do indeed take the point, M. I do not agree but I can indeed see what you are saying.

If we were to 'spend' a limited amount of sympathy then we should indeed spare it for those who have been brutalised through no fault of their own. If however we withhold some sympathy from those we feel may have been culpable are we not in danger of compounding the crime? Imagine how the victim must feel. She has been physicaly and mentaly violated. She has been hauled over the coals in the courts and had her private details discussed by complete strangers. She knows she has been stupid and feels pretty bad about that as well. Then we tell her we cannot spare more sympathy? I don't think I could. Sympathy is free after all.

DeG

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: Emma B
Date: 23 Feb 10 - 05:47 AM

I will try be objective here but I cannot express how angry I feel by the post of 5.04 today

There ARE different kinds of rape - we have discussed stranger rape, acquaintance rape and spousal rape in this thread

While stranger rape can be understood by the victim as a random, one-off event, the betrayal of trust in date rape can have a much more devastating effect on a person in the long term.

In addition, the issue of consent in stranger rape is a lot less muddy than in date rape and it is much more likely that the victim will receive sympathy and justice than some of the attitudes we have seen reflected in the initial OP article, and even some views expressed here and will not find herself* (see below) also carrying the burden some of the guilt or self blame in addition to the rape itself

To suggest one form of rape is worse than another is to undermine the battle to combat the scepticism that still surrounds a great many rape cases

I find this view very disturbing and dangerous in its complacency.

Opening up the 'grey areas' of the rape debate does not lead to clarification or better understanding of the offence.

Victims of rape are often humiliated and afraid they won't be believed.
If they have ingested drink or drugs, they may think what happens to them doesn't count.
This shifts the blame from the attack slowly but surely from the perpetrator to the victim.

From there it's not such a leap to accusing someone of "asking for it."

For the abused wife -

Rape is not usually about wanting or love or passion, it is about domination and control.
Rapists dehumanize their victims, and spouses can be as savage or even more so than the classical, bur rare, deranged 'stranger'
They can use tactics such as debasing her self-esteem, telling her she is little more than an appliance to him, or worse.
These men are not only extremely dysfunctional and selfish, they can be dangerous. When angered beyond reason, they may in fact, rape their wives as brutally as any 'stranger' sitting in prison for the same crime and on a regular basis.

From one victim

"When it is the person you have entrusted your life to who rapes you, it isn't just physical or sexual assault, it is a betrayal of the very core of your marriage, of your person, of your trust."


* This is not to ignore research statistics that tell us that almost 3% of men reported a non-consensual sexual experience as adults

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 23 Feb 10 - 11:48 AM

""to equate it with absolutely no emotional distinction to what we feel for a last-minute-mind-change prick-tease?""

WRONG!!

She too is entitled to change her mind.

More years ago than I care to remember, I was placed in exactly that position. I am not the world's best when it comes to resisting temptation, but I advised her to go screw herself, and slung her out.

I further informed every male acquaintance what to expect, which seriously curtailed her activities in the close confines of the college we both attended.

I have always been glad that I reacted in that way, and I repeat, she was entitled to change her mind, even though she was a dangerous and unprincipled harpy.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 23 Feb 10 - 12:01 PM

""The man is at fault in both cases also, sure ~ but not, surely to the very same degree of culpability?""

Yes, to the very same degree! Rape is rape, pure and simple. There are no degrees of guilt.


""But do you not agree that some victims deserve more sympathy than others?""

Of course they do, but that is a complete non sequitur. You don't express sympathy for one by mitigating the guilt of the rapist for the other.

The judicial system deals with law. Sympathy is the province of family, friends, and social workers.

All a court should be deciding is "Did she say NO? Did he continue, in spite of that NO?

If the answer is Yes to both, he is GUILTY!

Not a little bit guilty.
Not very guilty.

Just GUILTY!

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 23 Feb 10 - 12:02 PM

I will try be objective here but I cannot express how angry I feel by the post of 5.04 today
                        
Well, sorry about that, EmmaB; I wasn't trying to anger anyone ~~ but fail to see why I shouldn't enter such a perfectly bland and reasoned post for fear of angering someone who, if you will forgive my saying so [or even if you won't], seems to me to "feel angry" just a little bit easy.
                         =========
DonT: FFS nobody's said she isn't entitled to change her mind! You yourself admit that, when someone tried on such a caper with you, you were so incensed that you 'slung her out'. So, go on, now tell me you would feel as sorry for her if she came up against another guy without your admirable selfcontrol as you would with someone who had been violently & traumatically raped by a complete stranger while going about her normal lawful occasions. Go on ~ let's hear it for your bitch on the same level as my unfortunate.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: jeddy
Date: 23 Feb 10 - 12:07 PM

thanks don T, it is so nice to get a mans experiances too. you had every right to be angry and frustrated. i think it was a good idea to warn your friends of what she did.

some on here would say you had reason enough to push it and ignore her wishes, to me you are a gentleman.

no always means no and stop always means stop, whatever is happening.
although it is possible to carry on while asking if thats what someone wants, once they have confirmed what you are asking them, there is no excuse not to do as asked!

i cannot get my head around the difference between blame and guilt.
if a man/woman will not stop, i don't see how it can be anyone elses responablity if one of them doesn't. it is the attackers fault, no matter what. SIMPLE.

whoever said about the comparison between murder, stealing, for a greater reason, is talking sense.
no one NEEDS sex to survive.

take care all
jade x x x x x

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 23 Feb 10 - 12:11 PM

DonT - your last cross-posted with mine. WTF you mean, 'there are no degrees of guilt'? If that is the case, why are different sentences ever passed for what appear on the charge sheet as the same offence?

Is not that the attitude that led to death sentences in 18C & early-19C for stealing anything over the value of 5/- as well as for murder?

Of course there are 'degrees of guilt'.

I am sorry, but I am afraid yours strikes me as the assertion of somebody who is determined to come over as not right bright.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 23 Feb 10 - 12:12 PM

""So, go on, now tell me you would feel as sorry for her""

I've just said I wouldn't, or don't you actually read what others say?

That is immaterial. It just cannot be allowed to carry weight in a court of law.

Find some way to express greater sympathy that won't result in a rapist getting away with it.

I repeat THERE ARE NO DEGREES OF GUILT IN CASES OF RAPE!

And the victim of a crime IS NEVER TO BLAME for the actions of the criminal.

Black and White.   NO grey ares! No matter how undeserving of sympathy the victim may be, the damage suffered is the same.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 23 Feb 10 - 12:15 PM

... not, Don, that I disagree with Jeddi that you did just the right thing on that occasion: but even if you hadn't, you still wouldn't be as 'guilty', in any possible meaningful sense, as a real violent serial rapist. If you can't see that, I just give up; & hope it keeps fine for you.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: frogprince
Date: 23 Feb 10 - 12:28 PM

"last-minute-mind-change prick-tease?""
I'm uncomfortable, to say the least, with that line. I'm sure that, with all the myrisd of possible experience out there, there are instances that fit that description precisely. But if there were any real way to get reliable data on such a thing, I would wager that there are far more instances in which a woman has an honest, completely unanticipated change of mind, for any of many reasons. I suspect that that typically involves a good deal of embarassment and discomfort for her.
I've only had one significant experience, years ago, with a bona fide "CT"or"PT". She was what has been called a "candy rapper"; she melted in you ear, not in your hand. On a date, she would keep dropping lines only a thin line short of "I can't wait to f**k your brains out." Fortunately there was no real danger of a "last minute" incident; any male who actually tried so much as a caress was lucky not to pull back a bloody stump.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: jeddy
Date: 23 Feb 10 - 12:29 PM

there has just been on the news about a bloke who was falsely accused. he had to give up his whole life because of threats to his safety. she meanwhile got off with a suspended sentance.
i think she should have got the same sentance he would have got if he had been found guilty.

don, slinging the woman out might sound abit harsh, if that was me and i had genuinely liked you i would have been devastated.
however, it is your house and you have the right to throw anyone out.

as for feeling sorry for her, yes i would have done. teasing someone is no excuse. sometimes there are deeper reasons for peoples behaviour. a driving need, i am sure we have seen some of that here.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 23 Feb 10 - 12:44 PM

frogprince, I am sorry to have used a phrase that made you 'uncomfortable'; but I did stress, as do you yourself in accepting that the phrase might just very occasionally be applicable, that it would only apply in a minute number of occasions. In other words, you say I made you feel uncomfortable, but then go on to say I was not entirely mistaken. So why the "discomfort", I wonder?

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Feb 10 - 01:00 PM

It seems that there are people hear who are prepared to let rapists and potential rapists decide how we behave and dress - funny old world!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: Bill D
Date: 23 Feb 10 - 01:08 PM

MtheGM is trying, as did I and several others, to clarify some issues and point out that not all incidents are equal, and thus need different responses to cope with them and different language to describe them.

To those who demand only ONE category of blame & guilt, I can only hope you never have to sort it out personally, or with a family member.

I think we all agree that the goal is to have NO be always expressed clearly and that it always be respected, no matter what one's opinion is of the woman's reasons, etc....

Knowing what I do of humans, I doubt that goal is close.....

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 23 Feb 10 - 01:08 PM

I think the discomfort comes from somewhat dubious language like "prick tease" and "your bitch and my unfortunate".

The basic problem is that there is this polarised characterisation of either the sexless innocent or the nasty, calculating, man-eating jezebel. It is as much a caricature as the notion of the slavering, voracious male who, once he's got a stiffy, MUST have his lust satisfied. Neither, I think, bears much relation to real life in 99% of cases. And both undermine the cause of ANY rape victim. Why? Because the "she led me on" excuse is used so frequently. When it is given this kind of credence - labelling "certain" women as bitches and cock-teases whose behaviour, somehow, mitigates the culpability of a rapist, it becomes one of the reasons many women will never report what has happened to them.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: mauvepink
Date: 23 Feb 10 - 01:23 PM

"But do you not agree that some victims deserve more sympathy than others? I don't think it fair to the victims of the worst sorts (you will surely agree that some are worse than others) should not receive more pity/sympathy/empathy/whichever·such·term·one·may·choose than..."

If someone is raped they have my fullest sympathy. How it happened them and to what extent it traumatised them does not put a percentage on that sympathy.

Some may require more help and support to overcome what has happened them but I believe they should ALL receive the exact same amount of understanding and sympathy for what has happened to them. Being raped is being raped. There may be degrees of injury and trauma that go with that but it is all rape.

Would we expect the courst to deal with them differently in sentencing? It seems they do for sure but, judging by the majority feeling on this thread, ALL rape deseves the same sentance, If you add other crimes up committed with the rape then they should have sentence added. Rape itself should not be seen as being suffered in various degrees.

mp

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 23 Feb 10 - 01:27 PM

""... not, Don, that I disagree with Jeddi that you did just the right thing on that occasion: but even if you hadn't, you still wouldn't be as 'guilty', in any possible meaningful sense, as a real violent serial rapist.""

YES I WOULD!

I'm not an animal, governed by uncontrollable instinct. I'm a rational being, and if I transgress it means that the following are true.

1) I choose to take an action I know to be wrong.
2) I am capable of rape
3) I place my desires above the rights of others.

GUILTY AS HELL!

Jade, you had to be there. This one was the genuine 24 carat prick teaser, who lay stark naked on a bed, laughing her head off, and told me what a damn fool I was to think I was getting anything out of her.

If I can sit here and state categorically that she had the right to change her mind, that should take care of the responsibility issue once and for all.

Some men are rapists, and they commit rape. The circumstances are irrelevant, as far as the harm done is concerned.

I will forever take issue with anyone who says that the victim of that crime is responsible for the capacity to harm of such a man.

I am not overly proud of throwing her out, but it was preferrable to hitting her, something I was brought up never to do.

As for blowing the whistle, I make no apology, given that I probably saved one or more men from the same, and also probably saved her, for a time, from picking a wrong'un and being raped.

Now I've said all I intend to say on the subject.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: mg
Date: 23 Feb 10 - 01:38 PM

It seems that there are people hear who are prepared to let rapists and potential rapists decide how we behave and dress - funny old world!


Well, I am one who does. I lock my car against potential car thieves. I work at modest jobs so I can get insurance against potential surgeries.

I think that we have to all participate in some limitations of our legal freedoms voluntarily in order to make the world safer for ourselves and others, realizing that there are people who are not quite all there in various capacities, that there are all sorts of people on drugs, there are people who have not been properly socialized and have no moral teachings whatsoever..that even if I as an overweight 60 year old female start dressing provocatively (and would not have much of an audience for it), it still makes the world less safe for a 15 year-old. I have an obligation to tell the 15 year olds what can happen if they dress like many do, or if if they are alone with young men (heaven forbid older ones)...that they are dealing with millions of years of evolution, that not all men will stop and not all can stop..those with brain damage etc. That they have the same duties that we had when we were teenagers and that is to tone it down, not flaunt it etc.

It doesn't mean for a minute that anyone deserves anything bad to happen to them but still we have to let go of the comfort of being either naive or thinking that because things should be a certain way that that is the way they are. It is a dangerous world out there and we have to make allowances for it and voluntarily limit our behaviors..just my opinion but pretty much standard thought for many cultures for many thousands of years. mg

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 23 Feb 10 - 01:40 PM

I think the discomfort comes from somewhat dubious language like "prick tease" and "your bitch and my unfortunate". The basic problem is that there is this polarised characterisation of either the sexless innocent or the nasty, calculating, man-eating jezebel. It is as much a caricature as the notion of the slavering, voracious male who, once he's got a stiffy, MUST have his lust satisfied. Neither, I think, bears much relation to real life in 99% of cases.

Ruth, sorry you find the language dubious — but I tried to be careful NOT to 'polarise', and was at pains to point out that these designations apply only, as you yourself confirm, to 1% of cases (& I think your 99% probably an underestimate ~ probably nearer 99·9%). But there still does remain that ·01% of 'hard cases' ~ &, as they say, it is the hard cases that make the bad law. & if DonT persists in thinking they should all be treated and regarded exactly the same, then I say again, I hope it keeps fine for him.

Grateful to Bill D above for his support.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: Emma B
Date: 23 Feb 10 - 02:00 PM

what you posted MtheGm was -

"If all rape victims are to be equally pitied, does it not detract from the proper sympathy for, & rage that should be felt on behalf of, the victim of a real brutal stranger-rape ~ the very worst sort"~

" I don't think it fair to the victims of the worst sorts (you will surely agree that some are worse than others) should not receive more pity/sympathy/empathy/whichever·such·term·one·may·choose than"


If you are the victim of rape there is NO 'very worst sort'

If you are a nonconsensual partner to the act of intercourse it is likely to be a frightening, humilating and painful experience whatever the circumstances - whether that is by a stranger, an acquaintance, friend, work colleague, relative or even an abusing spouse!

To suggest that somehow only the victim of the former is worthy of 'proper sympathy' is grossly insulting to other victims

The victims of non consensual, forcible intercourse, whether male or female, are deserving of respect and sympathy and whatever emotional or medical help they may require as a direct result of a criminal assault.

For those who know their abusers they are much less likely to find understanding from people if the kind of attitudes you promote continue and, in addition, also suffer the feelings of lack of self trust and trust in male friends or family.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: frogprince
Date: 23 Feb 10 - 02:22 PM

"why the "discomfort", I wonder?"
I'm not really upset with you, or feeling that you need to apologize, MtheGM. I think it may just be that, when I've heard phrasing like that, it has too often been from men who believed that they lived in a world with a lot of "prick teasers" which to them could be any woman who acted at all friendly but who then refused to offer up anything that was grabbed for. So it's more of a superficial reaction. I'm not reading you as being a person at that level.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Feb 10 - 02:53 PM

"I lock my car against potential car thieves."
Locking your car is surely very different from allowing somebody to decide how you should dress, or how many drinks you should have.
'Inappropriate' dress (whatever that means) is no excuse for rape.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: mg
Date: 23 Feb 10 - 03:12 PM

of course it is no excuse for rape. It is something that can act to lessen the probability for not just myself but perhaps for the next woman wild crazy man sees, regardless of what statistics come up with. All men lurking about in the shadows are not genteel. Some are nutty as fruitcakes. Some have no impulse control. Many have violent natures that have not been curbed by nurtering families, success in jobs and with voluntary relationships with women. I wouldn't wave a red flag in front of a bull even if people tell me as I am sure they will that they are colorblind. We can't go out in public and display ourselves because it triggers a chain of biological events and there are people out there who can and do control themselves, at great discomfort sometimes that they should not be put through by someone with no intention of letting them near her, and some for biological reasons can not. Otherwise they would not risk going to jail, getting killed by angry relatives etc. We are playing with fire here. mg

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: jeddy
Date: 23 Feb 10 - 03:18 PM

don't know how revlevent this is but are any of you watching jo frost right now?

about half the 6 year old girls they interveiwed and showed different sized pictures of themselves thought they were fatter than they are and thought the skinniest of the oictures were better.

worrying or what?

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: Lox
Date: 23 Feb 10 - 04:33 PM

MtheGM wrote:

"But it has surely been repeatedly demonstrated also that however GUILTY the perpetrator may be, the extent to which the victim might be regarded as BLAMEWORTHY for the outcome can vary enormously according to the circumstances.

That is the distinction some of us have been trying to draw; ~~~ and I repeat that I do not think enough attention has been paid to these two distinctions: i.e. that between 'Guilt & 'Blame'; and that between the degree of either to be attributed in each and every specific case."

Where has it been shown that "the extent to which the victim might be regarded as BLAMEWORTHY for the outcome can vary enormously according to the circumstances"?

Could you cite the date and time of the post?


The hypothetical example MtheGM provided did not demonstrate this.

It showed that when a woman "permits" sex (after foreplay) she is wrong to cry rape afterwards.

No other hypothetical example has withstood any scrutiny either.

I keep reading posts about how there are grey areas, yet I have seen no example which supports these claims.

In every hypothetical scenario described in this thread, a clear point of consent or non-consent has been easily defined.

That point of consent or non-consent is the boundary beyond which rape can be said to have been committed.

I understand that in life there are shades of grey.

In the case of YES/NO I have yet to see any examples of scenarios that can't be described as CONSENTING/NON-CONSENTING, so I haven't seen any shades of grey between those two absolutes yet.

The clever response to me would be "what if she said MAYBE".

But this would be churlish and would still not present a grey area, as it would be possible for any witness to the act to identify consent or its absence from other indicators.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 23 Feb 10 - 04:37 PM

Hardly surprising, jeddy. It's been going on for years, the 'grooming' of our children. I've spoken about it many times before...and it's part of the reason that so many women these days now dress as pervert's fantasies.



So, what some are saying in here then, is that a woman should be able to walk down the street, stark flaming naked, wiggling her bum, boobs swaying in the breeze and NO-ONE should judge her for that?

If you do, then you are condoning the grooming of our children. You are condoning so many women joining the world of pornography, even if they don't realise they are. You are condoning the sexualisation of women in a way that was never thought would happen when the dreaded feminism started up...

Women were supposed to be respected for their minds...Helllooooooo?

WHERE is the mind of a woman who is stoned out of her brain, legless on the pavement, boobs and bum blowin' in the wind...and WHY is she there in the first place? WHY does she WANT to get so stoned in the first place????? Are any of you asking that? Do you think it's because she can't cope with being told that it's her right to be out of control, and that she is almost *expected* to behave that way if she wants to fit in??????

I think Don not only managed to behave himself well in a sexual way, but that he did very well in just kicking that woman out, because if a man had done that to me, I think he'd have come into contact with a frying pan, or two, before I kicked him out.   

I'm sorry, but why the hell would anyone expect a woman who behaves like that NOT to be kicked out????

No woman has the right to behave that way to a fellow human being. No man does either.

There was a woman like that in The Sealed Knot. She'd go with any man, cause all sorts of havoc. She was known as The Prick Teaser, hated by the men and pretty much despised by the women as well. Whatever problems she'd had that caused her to behave like that, was no excuse to cause others anguish.

JUST because you are a woman does NOT excuse you from being a stupid, selfish, badly behaved, immoral and amoral brat.

Geez! Bring back your self respect, girls!!

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: mauvepink
Date: 23 Feb 10 - 04:47 PM

"JUST because you are a woman does NOT excuse you from being a stupid, selfish, badly behaved, immoral and amoral brat. "

The words "Ivory" and "tower" are jumping out at me here

I suggest you do not judge all women either Lizzie because they do not do it your way! The argument you keep ramming home is beginning to sound almost like there is a jealousy within you of the freedom some women now have and express. That does not make them all as you paint them.

But going back full circle.... Even if a woman is all of the above, she should not get raped for it!

When did you come back by the way? ;-)

mp

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: Lox
Date: 23 Feb 10 - 04:51 PM

"Prick Tease" is a frustrated mans term for a girl who he really wants to shag, and who he thinks he has somehow earned the right to shag, but who won't shag him.

It doesn't matter who is raped, be they prick tease, hooker or nun. I have equal sympathy with all of them.

Some rapes are compounded by other forms of violence, but the actual rape itself is the same for everyone - non consensual penetration - this act is the most damaging part of the process whoever is on the receiving end and whyever their attacker might feel justified..

The implication by MtheGM that some types of rape are somehow nicer or more justified is concerning.

Just as all murders are hideous, all rapes are hideous.

rape is not like other crimes, as it can only be malicious.

You cannot rape by accident, or in self defence, so mitigating cuircumstaances don't apply as they would in other "grey area" crimes.