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Origins: Ten Little Indians
In Mudcat MIDIs:
Ten Little Indians
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Subject: RE: Lyr Req/Add: Ten Little Indians From: GUEST Date: 09 Feb 23 - 06:04 PM I found an old version of Ten Little Injuns it was in an old Complete Mother Goose Book that is old tattered and torn. The page is torn but i can read most of the words and its very racist The |
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Subject: RE: req/add: 10 Little Indians From: GUEST,D Date: 16 Mar 08 - 06:01 PM Do you (or anyone else) have ANY idea where I can get the sheet music for this song? I have spent a huge amount of time trying to find the sheet music and have not had any luck. Can you or anyone else help me -- PLEASE! Thank you. D |
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Subject: RE: req/add: 10 Little Indians From: GUEST,chrissy Date: 03 Jun 07 - 07:48 PM This is a fariation we sing in Australia Ten little Indians 1 little, 2 little 3 little Indians, 4 little, 5 little, 6 little Indians, 7 little, 8 little 9 little Indians, 10 little Indian boys and girls. They jumped in a boat and the boat flipped over, They jumped in a boat and the boat flipped over, They jumped in a boat and the boat flipped over, 10 little Indian boys and girls. They swam and they swam and they swam to their mother, They swam and they swam and they swam to their mother, They swam and they swam and they swam to their mother, 10 little Indian boys and girls. She hugged them, kissed them, and sent them to bed, She hugged them, kissed them, and sent them to bed, She hugged them, kissed them, and sent them to bed, 10 little Indian boys and girls. |
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Subject: RE: req/add: 10 Little Indians From: Q (Frank Staplin) Date: 17 May 07 - 08:10 PM Sherman Alexie, well-known writer (and Spokane-Coeur d'Alene Indian) published (2003, Grove Press)) a book of short stories, "Ten Little Indians," which is worth reading. One of his ealier books of short stories is titled "The Lone Ranger and Tonto Fistfight in Heaven." |
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Subject: RE: req/add: 10 Little Indians From: GUEST Date: 17 May 07 - 06:57 PM INTERESTING....the one I know includes verses "built him a TeePee out in the forest..." and jumped in the boat and the boat tipped over" and "swam to shore and got there safely"....THATS the version I was looking for!
-Joe Offer- |
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Subject: RE: Lyr. Add: Nine Little Acorn Girls From: Q (Frank Staplin) Date: 19 Feb 07 - 02:38 PM This song has been sung variously since at least Roman times. Lyr. Add: Nine Little Acorn Girls Novem glandulae sorores Novem glandulae sorores, Octo glandulae sorores, Septem glandulae sorores, Sex glandulae sorores Quinque glandulae sorores, Quatuor glandulae sorores, Tres glandulae sorores, Duae glandulae sorores, Una glandula soror! Novem fiunt glandulae, Octo fiunt glandulae, Septem fiunt glandulae, Sex fiunt glandulae, Quinque fiunt glandulae, Quatuor fiunt glandulae, Tres fiunt glandulae, Duae fiunt glandulae, Una fit glandula, Nulla fit glandula! Marcellus Burdigalensis, a Gallo-Roman, Fifth century, offered this as a charm (Ueber Marcellus Burdigalensis, Jacob Grimm, Berlin, 1849). The incantation is described as a wonderful, magical song for curing pains or disorders of the throat (glandulae = tonsils). Glandulae also means 'acorns'; in which case the song becomes "Nine Little Acorn Girls." Jour. American Folk-Lore, vol. 2, No. 5, 1889, pp. 113-114, Charles G. Leland. |
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Subject: RE: req/add: 10 Little Indians From: LukeKellylives (Chris) Date: 19 Feb 07 - 12:26 PM If you know how to play Drunken Sailor, you have Ten Little Injuns. (Capo accordingly) [Am]What shall we do with a drunken sailor? [G] What shall we do with a drunken sailor? [Am] What shall we do with a drunken sailor [G] Earl-eye in the [Am]mornin'. Also works with Oro 'Se do Bheatha 'Bhaile. |
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Subject: RE: req/add: 10 Little Indians From: Ferrara Date: 19 Feb 07 - 10:13 AM GUEST, shot synapses, there is a farily complex history of this song, starting in the US and moving to Great Britain where it became East Indians. It's all laid out in detail in this thread ... but piecemeal, which is how threads work. Quick comment about Septimus Winner. He must have been incredibly prolific. There is at least one adaptation of a spiritual by Winner in "Heart Songs. He wrote "Listen to the Mockingbird," or at least the lyrics; apparently it was so successful that he tossed off a third verse that appears in later editions. And under the name of Alice Hawthorne, Winner was the author of "Whispering Hope." I have seen his name fairly frequently on other songs of the period. |
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Subject: RE: req/add: 10 Little Indians From: GUEST,gretasmom Date: 19 Feb 07 - 07:47 AM Yes, this was in the United States, in Illinois. We were in a tiny town (population 850) where there is virtually no diversity. I say virtually because the kicker of the story is that my father himself was 1/4 Cherokee. At the age of 5, I don't think I ever made the connection - it was just a song to me. Now I look back in disbelief. How many times did I sing that in front of my parents?? |
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Subject: RE: req/add: 10 Little Indians From: GUEST,shot synapses Date: 18 Feb 07 - 07:35 PM O.K., so what kind of Indians are we talking about here, those from India or those from the Americas? I've known a variation of that song all my life and assumed it was about so-called American Indians, but if Agatha Christy's book was the origin of the song then, being British, was she perhaps not referring to natives of India? Frankly, given the problems associated with the use of the term "Indian" to refer to Native American peoples, I'm surprised that in all the P.C. talk so far no one has seen fit to mention it, especially since it was the topic of the thread (if indeed the song is about [sic] American "injuns" to begin with). I realize that centuries of habit are hard to break, but American Indian is an obvious misnomer that ought to have been done away with long ago, since all the cultures referred to are natives of what was later called America and obviously have nothing to do with the sub-continent of India other than the geographical ignorance of White Europeans. Furthermore, now that there is a fairly large population of Indians from India in the U.S. we are faced with the absurdity of having two totally different cultural groups being called by the same name. I suppose that to be more semantically correct, Native Americans would have to be referred to as American Indians and Americans from India as Indian-Americans (along the lines of other hypenated immigrant groups). However, this seems so prone to confusion and so absurdly ridiculous a solution, that we all should just start referring to Native Americans by that name and drop the incorrect term Indian once and for all. |
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Subject: RE: req/add: 10 Little Indians From: Azizi Date: 17 Feb 07 - 11:35 PM GUEST,gretasmom, Thanks for posting that example of 10 little Indians. That example-actually the last verse of that example prompted me to start this thread: thread.cfm?threadid=99131&messages=1 "Fudge Fudge Call The Judge" ** Btw, you mentioned singing this rhyme in a class, led by our teacher, in kindergarten in {19}82. Was this in the United States? If not, where was it? I'd also be curious if it was in a state where that has a significant population of Indians. And yes, times have changed. I think in this instance, for the best as I'm glad that the 10 little Indians song is no longer sung in public schools {at least I hope it isn't sung any longer}. Studied yes. Sung for fun or pleasure, no. |
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Subject: RE: req/add: 10 Little Indians From: GUEST,gretasmom Date: 17 Feb 07 - 08:14 PM This is what I remember: One little, two little, three little Indians Four little, five little, six little Indians Seven little, eight little, nine little Indians Ten little Indian boys. Ten little, nine little, eight little Indians Seven little, six little, five little Indians Four little, three little, two little Indians One little Indian boy. Wrap him up in tissue paper, throw 'em down the river Wrap him up in tissue paper, throw 'em down the river Wrap him up in tissue paper, throw 'em down the river No more Indian boys! Sadly enough, I remember singing that as a class, led by our teacher, in kindergarten (of course that was in '82). |
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Subject: RE: req/add: 10 Little Indians From: GUEST,memyself Date: 17 Nov 06 - 10:12 PM Guest JGT - You've lost me: What does the novel in question have to do with "British sentiment against the British Colonial System"? |
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Subject: RE: req/add: 10 Little Indians From: Q (Frank Staplin) Date: 17 Nov 06 - 09:31 PM Guest essentially has repeated the 1869 Frank Green version posted here by Wolfgang back in 1999. |
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Subject: RE: req/add: 10 Little Indians From: GUEST Date: 17 Nov 06 - 01:26 PM THE LITTLE INDIANS Ten little Indian boys went out to dine; One choked his little self and then there were nine. Nine little Indian boys sat up very late; One overslept himself and then there were eight. Eight little Indian boys traveling in Devon; One said he'd stay there and then there were seven. Seven little Indian boys chopping up sticks; One chopped himself in halves and then there were six. Six little Indian boys playing with a hive; A bumblebee stung one and then there were five. Five little Indian boys going in for law; One got in Chancery and then there were four. Four little Indian boys going out to sea; A red herring swallowed one and then there were three. Three little Indian boys walking in the zoo; A big bear hugged one and then there were two. Two little Indian boys sitting in the sun; One got frizzled up and then there was one. One little Indian boy left all alone; He went and hanged himself and then there were none. |
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Subject: RE: req/add: 10 Little Indians From: GUEST Date: 10 May 06 - 03:16 PM Some of the chain about the 10 Little Indians may be well intended. But a bit of history might be helpful. First, the piece is yet another brick thrown at the ever-thinning glass of British colonialism. By the late 30s when Christie was developing the novel, it had become popular to express anything from eager impatience to out and out acrimony towards the British colonial project. By the time WW II started, Anti-Colonialism had become a popular sport in all but a few segments of the British political spectrum. Point: Dame Christie is relying on the modern (a la the late 30s and early 40s) British sentiment against the British Colonial System in her novel, play and movie. JGT |
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Subject: RE: req/add: 10 Little Indians From: Q (Frank Staplin) Date: 19 Dec 04 - 03:01 PM Septimus Winner (1868), in sheet music linked by Masato, above, had an "Encore Verse." This little 'Injun' with his little wife Lived in a wigwam the balance of his life; One daddy 'Injun' and a mommy 'squaw' Brought up a family of ten Injuns more. (This verse was incorporated into the version in "Heart Songs." "One little couple dwelling by the shore, Soon raised a family of ten niggers more.") One ..."kicked the bucket" and then there were seven- Interesting: the expression appeared in 1785 in Grose, "Dictionary of the Vulgar Tongue," so it may have originated in England. Perhaps from kicking a bucket from under the feet of a hanging man. The same reference lists "kickerapoo" as a Negro word for dead. Any relation? |
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Subject: RE: 10 Little Indians From: Azizi Date: 19 Dec 04 - 09:59 AM As an African American, I commend posters on this thread for the overall sensitivity of your comments. Since I have been reading Mudcat threads, I've often wondered how different the responses to threads, and, for that matter, the topic threads would be if there were more people of [acknowledged?}African descent and more people of color who posted here. I think that such participation would add to the richness of the conversation. Notwithstanding my wish that Mudcat would be more racially diverse, IMHO, Mudcat can't be beat for the posting of historical information/source material on folk music, including children's rhymes {which are my primary area of interest}. I've already written in other Mudcat threads about my aversion to the historical and contemporary use by African Americans and others of the "N word". So I won't dwell on that here, but will say that though that individual and group referent was frequently used during pre-Civil War times by some slave and free African Americans {particularly free and freed economically "lower class" African Americans}, there were many other Africans & other people of African descent in the United States and elsewhere then {as now} who found {find}the term offensive. But for the historical record, some people reading here may be interested in this version of "Ten Little N- Boys", as found in African American Professor Thomas W. Talley's 1922 "Negro Folk Rhymes". I am using the title that Talley gave to the rhyme "The End Of Ten Little Negroes". However, I use "N-" where he used the complete spelling of that word. I haven't included this rhyme in any presentations I've done on the subject of traditional and contemporary African American children's rhymes, but if I did I would substitute "Black boy{s} for "N-". THE END OF TEN LITTLE NEGROES Ten liddle N-, a-eatin, fat an' fine; One choke hisse'f to death, an' dat lef' nine. Nine liddle N-, dey sot [sat] up too late; One sleep hisse'f to death, an' dat lef' eight. Eight little N- want to go to Heaben; One sing hisse'f to death, an' dat lef' seben. Seben liddle N-, a'pickin' up sticks; One wuk {work} hisse'f to death, an' dat lef' six. Six liddle N- went out fer to drive; Mule run away wid one, an' dat lef' five. Five liddle N- in a cold rain pour; One coughed hisse'f to death, an' dat lef' four. Four liddle N-, climb a' apple tree; One fall down an' out, an' dat lef' three. Three liddle N- a'wantin' sumpin [something]new; One, he quit de udders [others], an' dat lef' two. Two liddle N- went out fer to run; One fell down de bluff, an' dat lef' one. One liddle N-, a-foolin' wid a gun; Gun go off "bang" an' dat left' none. (Talley, Kennikat Press reprint edition, 1968, p. 163} -- Talley includes a number of other number rhymes about "Negro" boys in his collection. Perhaps the best known is the shortnin bread rhyme. But there is another rhyme that shows how Black boys used their mental abilities. My posting below of that rhyme uses Talley's title and my subsitution for the N word and my clarifications of some perhaps hard to decipher words. GETTING TEN NEGRO BOYS TOGETHER One liddle N- boy whisle an' stew [stew=impatiently stood around waiting?] He whistle up anudder N- an' dat make two. Two liddle N- boys shuck [shook]de apple tree. Down fall anudder N-, an dat make three. Three liddle N- boys, a-wantin' one more, Never has no trouble a-gittin' up four. Four liddle N- boys, dey cain't drive, Dey hire a N- hack boy. an' dat make five. Five liddle N-, bein' calcullated men,[males?] Call anudder N- 'piece [apiece] an' dat make ten. {Talley, p. 184} -- It's my view that traditional and contemporary African American children's rhymes, like other rhymes such as Mother Goose, should be collected, preserved, and made accessible for study because of {among other things} their insights on the life and personal & interpersonal attitudes, concerns, expectations, and worldview of the people who performed them. |
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Subject: RE: 10 Little Indians From: masato sakurai Date: 19 Dec 04 - 03:47 AM Probably "Old John Brown" (1849) [at Levy] is the earliest printed edition with text & tune. Title: Songs & Glees of the Gibson Troupe. Old John Brown. Solo and Chorus. Composer, Lyricist, Arranger: Arranged by J. Gibson. Publication: Boston: Oliver Ditson, No. 115 Washington St., 1849. Form of Composition: strophic with chorus Instrumentation: piano and voice First Line: Old John Brown had a little Ingin, Old John Brown had a little Ingin First Line of Chorus: Old John Brown had a little Ingin, Old John Brown had a little Ingin Performer: [the Gibson Troupe] |
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Subject: RE: 10 Little Indians From: masato sakurai Date: 19 Dec 04 - 03:09 AM The tune to "Ten Little Niggers" (beginning with "Ten little niggers going out to dine, / One chok'd his little self, and then there were nine") in Heart Songs (1909; rpt. Clearfield, 1997, p. 357) is that by Sep. Winner. |
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Subject: RE: 10 Little Indians From: masato sakurai Date: 19 Dec 04 - 03:01 AM Thanks, Q. The underlined words in my post above should be deleted. (6) ten little niggers [title] (written by Frank Green) |
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Subject: RE: 10 Little Indians From: GUEST Date: 19 Dec 04 - 01:56 AM I love it when people who obviously have no clue try to tell us what the most important thing Twain was saying was. Why were "men" necessarily praiseworthy? Why was "good nigger" a better thing to say than "good man?" If he had said "rover is a good dog" would that have been higher praise than "stan is a good man?" No, and "he's a good Nigger" was not higher praise either. It was realistic for Huck to say this, but it was still racism and still classed Jim as a lower form of life. I agree that a piece like Huckleberry Finn should not be censored. But I also think it's pointless to conceptually censor the past by saying "Good Nigger" was high praise back then! And it's ignorant to boot. |
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Subject: RE: 10 Little Indians From: dick greenhaus Date: 19 Dec 04 - 01:46 AM One could also cange it to Ten Little Neocons, I guess. |
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Subject: RE: 10 Little Indians From: Q (Frank Staplin) Date: 19 Dec 04 - 01:20 AM "Ten Little Niggers" in the Bodleian broadside attributed to Green differs from the rhyme "Ten Little Nigger Boys" in "The Oxford Nursery Rhyme Book," Iona and Peter Opie, p. 193, and also differs from the version "Ten Little Niggers" posted by Wolfgang (and also attributed to Green). The version in the Agatha Christie mystery is the one posted by Wolfgang. The rhyme in the "Oxford Nursery Rhyme Book" changes the cumbersome "One chopped himself in halves" to "One chopped himself in half,..." The last verse is changed by the Opies to: "One little nigger boy living all alone; He got married, and then there were none." (A fate worse than hanging?) |
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Subject: RE: 10 Little Indians From: masato sakurai Date: 19 Dec 04 - 12:04 AM Two editions of Sep. Winner's 1868 sheet music (with a different music) are at The Lester S. Levy Collection of Sheet Music: (1) Title: The Amateur. A Collection of Popular Songs, Ballads, Etc. Ten Little Injuns. Comic Song and Chorus. Composer, Lyricist, Arranger: Arranged for the Guitar by Sep. Winner. Publication: Philadelphia: Lee & Walker, 722 Chestnut St., 1868. (2) Title: Ten Little Injuns. Comic Song and Chorus. Composer, Lyricist, Arranger: Arranged for the Guitar by Sep. Winner. Publication: Philadelphia: Lee & Walker, 722 Chestnut St., 1868. Also at Historic American Sheet Music: (3) Ten Little Injuns (Boston, Massachusetts, Oliver Ditson, 1868) (4) Ten Little Injuns (Boston, Massachusetts, Oliver Ditson, 1896; 1868) (5) "Ten Little Injuns" by A. Schuman (Saint Louis: Balmer & Weber, 1873; without words) at American Memory has an almost familar melody. British broadside editions are at Bodleian Library Broadside Ballads: (6) ten little niggers [title] (7) ten little ministers [title] (parody) Members of this tune family includes "The Monkey's Wedding" (Monkeys Wedding, New York: Firth & Hall, n.d.; in Sandburg, The American Songbag, p. 113), "Paw Paw Patch" (click here), and a version of "Drunken Sailor." References: Opie, The Oxford Dictionary of Nursery Rhymes, 2nd ed., no. 376; Fuld, The Book of World-Famous Music, 5th ed., pp. 205-06. |
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Subject: RE: 10 Little Indians From: GUEST,windsurfer Date: 18 Dec 04 - 09:01 PM if you go to ebay you can often find a copy of ten little niggers in color and one that I saw recently showed every page and could be blown up and read easily. |
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Subject: Lyr Add: ZEHN KLEINE MECKERLEIN From: Wolfgang Date: 14 Oct 99 - 05:07 AM I bring this thread up again for I have found a German anti-Nazi version of this song, titled "Zehn kleine Meckerlein" ('Meckerlein' of course sounding similar to the German nursery rhyme 'Negerlein'). "Meckern" ("to grumble") about the political situation was a criminal offence during the Nazi time and in the song each one of the grumblers is removed (= arrested, put in a concentration camp) in turn. This song was very un-PC then and people actually have been put in jail for the distribution of the lyrics to this song. I'm quite confident this'll not happen to me now. Tempora mutantur. Wolfgang ZEHN KLEINE MECKERLEIN (ten little grumblers) 10 kleine Meckerlein, die saßen mal beim Wein, der eine machte Goebbels nach, da waren's nur noch neun. (Ten little grumblers had a wine together, one of them aped Goebbels, and then there were nine) Neun kleine Meckerlein, die haben was gedacht, der eine hat es laut gedacht, da waren's nur noch acht. (...they thought of something, one of them thought it loud...) Acht kleine Meckerlein, die haben was geschrieben, der eine wurde abgefasst, da waren's nur noch sieben. (...they wrote something, one got caught...) Sieben kleine Meckerlein, die fragt' man: Oh, wie schmeckt's? Der eine sagte: Schweinefraß, da waren's nur noch sechs. (...were asked: How does it taste? One said: Like pigswill...) Sechs kleine Meckerlein, die sprachen über Pimpf, der eine sagte: Lausepack! Da waren's nur noch fünf. (...spoke about the Hitler youth, one said: Little rascals [verbatim: lousy gang]...) Fünf kleine Meckerlein, die spielten mal Klavier, der eine spielte Mendelssohn, da waren's nur noch vier. (...played on the piano, one played Mendelssohn [Jewish composer]...) Vier kleine Meckerlein, die schimpften auf den Ley. Der eine fragte: Säuft er noch? Da waren's nur noch drei. (...moaned about Ley [Robert Ley, top Nazi, e.g. organiser of "Kraft durch Freude", accused in Nuremberg, suicided there], one asked: Does he still booze?...) Drei kleine Meckerlein, die war'n in der Partei, der eine sagte: Nichts wie 'raus! Da waren's nur noch zwei. (...were Nazi-party members; one said: Let's get out of that party, quickly,...) Zwei kleine Meckerlein, die hörten Radio, der eine hat zuviel gehört, da kam die Gestapo. (...listened to the radio; one listened too much [listening to BBC could mean death penalty], then came the secret police) Ein kleines Meckerlein ließ ein Gedichtlein seh'n, da kam er nach Oranienburg, da waren's wieder zehn. (One little grumper showed a poem around, then he came to Oranienburg [a concentration camp] and then they were ten again. [his nine fellows were already there]). |
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Subject: RE: 10 Little Indians From: Wolfgang Date: 18 Aug 99 - 10:51 AM kat, I know that feeling "if I were alive then..." too well. I have often have asked myself what would I have done and felt in those twelve years of Nazi terror if I had been born in let's say, 1915. Of course, with my knowledge and feelings from now, I'm totally sure, but... Wolfgang |
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Subject: RE: 10 Little Indians From: katlaughing Date: 17 Aug 99 - 03:22 PM Thank you, Wolfgang. That is very interesting and I appreciate the sensitivity with which you presented it. I am still amazed, sometimes, at what was once acceptable and common. I know it was a different time and that if I were alive then I may not feel the same way about it as I do in this time, but I am still just stunned, sometimes, at the ignorance of xenophobia, no matter the era. katlaughing |
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Subject: Lyr Add: TEN LITTLE INDIANS and TEN LITTLE NIGGERS From: Wolfgang Date: 17 Aug 99 - 12:26 PM My main reason for posting this is to provide the original lyrics for Ten Little Indians. But then I found the surrounding story so interesting that I'll bring you the gist of it. If you go on reading you'll find out about the fairly recent American origin of a British nursery rhyme, about plagiarism, about PC language, about an Agatha Christie novel closely following a nursery rhyme which was actually a song, about the retitling and rewriting of the novel for the American edition, and why some of you may recollect a happy end of the murder mystery and others may recollect a bleak end. Most of the information to come, all citations, and the two songs are from D. Sanders, L. Lovallo, The Agatha Christie Companion, a book which in general cannot be considered a source for song lyrics. I have decided to use the N-word where it is unavoidable in my opinion, but to restrict its use to the absolute minimum. I apologise for any offence taken. Agatha Christie loved constructing novels to fit nursery rhymes ("Three blind mice", "One, two buckle your shoe", "Five little pigs" are further examples). She tried to follow closely the rhyme in order to give further clues to the knowledgeable. The book Ten Little Niggers (original title 1939) was no exception: "The so-called nursery rhyme on which Christie based her murder plot is actually a popular Victorian minstrel show song, which was written by Frank Green to music by Marc Mason and published in England in February 1869. Green wrote the song for G. W. 'Pony' Moore, a comic tenor with the Christy Minstrels who performed in St. James Hall, Picadilly. The song became a classic and was especially popular among children, hence its 'nursery rhyme' status. Christie includes the complete rhyme in chapter 2 of the book....The reader will find that the ensuing murders follow the poem quite closely and cleverly; the 'red herring' which swallowed boy number four is not an alteration of the text, though Christie must have found the appearance of the phrase quite amusing. "Frank Green's lyrics were actually an adaptation of the American comic song and chorus Ten Little Indians by Philadelphia songwriter Septimus Winner. Winner's lyrics were published in London in July 1868 and (in the days before copyright) were soon adapted for British audiences."
TEN LITTLE INDIANS
Ten little Injuns standin' in a line,
One little, two little, three little, four little,
Eight little Injuns gayest under heav'n,
Six little Injuns kickin' all alive,
Four little Injuns up on a spree,
Two little Injuns foolin' with a gun,
TEN LITTLE NIGGERS
...went out to dine;
...sat up very late;
...travelling in Devon;
...chopping up sticks;
...playing with a hive;
...going in for law;
...going out to sea;
...walking in the Zoo;
...left all alone; Christie later rewrote the story into a play, but this time taking the last verse from Winner's version in order to give the play a happy end (marriage, which at that time was considered to be a happy end). There's more than one film about the story, some of them based on the play, some based on the novel, and there are also novel editions with the other ending. That's why some of you may recollect two people walking off happily together after a nightmare and some may recollect an island with ten bodies, the death of which remains a complete mystery until a bottle drifting in the ocean is found. "When the American edition was published in 1940, Dodd, Mead rightly decided that the original title could be construed as racially offensive, even though it was taken directly from the British song. The book appeared as And then there were none [the last words of the song]. In the intervening years, American editions have also been titled 'Ten Little Indians' and 'The Nursery Rhyme Murders'." The avoiding of the offensive word also necessitated text changes, at most places 'Indian(s)' merely replacing the term from the British original, like printing Green's lyrics (that were needed in order to understand the plot) but with Winner's 'Indians'. At some places, there had to be more changes, for instance when the origin of the name of the island on which the plot is set, 'Indian Island' in the American edition, is explained. At very few places, the American editors decided to keep the offensive word in the text which made, e.g., Christie's play of words to a barely understandable "Indian Island, eh? There's a nigger in the woodpile". My paperback edition (printed in Britain) has the original text (as far as I know) but the title is taken from the American edition, 'And then there were none'. The German title still is 'Zehn kleine Negerlein', from a German children song which to me sounds like nothing but a translation of Green's lyrics. In Germany, the last line of the song cannot be taken as an innocent title, for in German, the song ends with the words 'da waren's wieder zehn' (and then there were ten). Wolfgang |
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Subject: RE: 10 Little Indians From: ddw in windsor Date: 13 Aug 99 - 08:21 PM Hi K~~ — Right you are about the children; my niece married a Samoan fellow and their two little girls are gorgeous -- tho' now they're not so little. One just started college and the other is in the 11th grade. My sister also married an American Indian and their kids are something to write home about -- both in looks and in smarts. There are also several other Indians in our family and my son seems to prefer sub-continent Indian and Asian women. From some of the ones he's dated, I can't fault his taste at all — tho' my ex-wife and her family seem to be very upset by it. Which is one of the kinds of things that made her my ex-wife.... cheers all, ddw |
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Subject: RE: 10 Little Indians From: Wolfgang Date: 13 Aug 99 - 01:13 PM As for the Agatha Christie novel (films), you're right, all of you. The book has been printed at least with three, if not four different titles (not mentioned yet here: 'The nursery rhyme murders', very PC, more PC than 'And then there were none' for this also inevitably invokes the recall of that particular nursery rhyme; at least in Germany). The different movies based on the novel had different titles. Here's perhaps more than you want to know about that novel.
When I was a kid it was PC in Germany to say "Neger" (negro) instead of "Schwarzer" ("black man"), we would have been corrected for using the wrong (offensive) word. The once wrong word became the good word in the seventies and the once good word became the wrong word. Since about ten years the new good word is "Afrikaner" (African) but you have to be very careful in using it for reasons pointed out first by K~~. Call a person with a dark skin colour "Afrikaner" and she isn't from Africa she'll resent and people from the North of Africa can get quite mad when they hear you using the word "Afrikaner" in the sense of sub-Saharean African, for they are also Africans though with quite a different colour of skin. Wolfgang |
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Subject: RE: 10 Little Indians From: katlaughing Date: 13 Aug 99 - 12:31 PM Thanks, K~~, you are right....my twin grandsons are gorgeous! Sounds as though you and my daughter think a lot alike. That is exactly what she says, we are all part of the human race and that should be that. I couldn't agree more. And, as far as the pcness goes, I just would like to see a balance, as I would in most things. All the best, kat
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Subject: RE: 10 Little Indians From: K~~ Date: 13 Aug 99 - 12:15 PM If it helps, kat, I never even/heard saw the n word until I read Huck Finn in the 6th grade. I was not in any way saying that I saw no harm in hurtful words, words can be terribly hurtful and scarring, I was merely throwing in with ddw about the absurd legths to which PC tends to reach. In my opinion, which I see I did not make clear earlier, is that there is only one RACE of man. We are all of us homo sapiens sapiens regardless of what decorative feature one sports. I understand your stance entirely, my own spouse is of a mixed Anglo-Asian background, but a good mixing just makes beautiful children - you should see my son. K'tildas |
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Subject: RE: 10 Little Indians From: katlaughing Date: 13 Aug 99 - 08:56 AM ddw, thank you. I pretty much agree with most of what you just said, although I AM partial to NOT being called some male gender thing, like chairman:-) I thought I was clear that I don't agree with changing Twain, either. The DC thing sounds pretty absurd...too bad everyone couldn't have talked it out, explained the meanings of the word, etc. As far as his being gay...the only explanation I can give would be some segments are so tired of the past history of prejudice that now, that they feel some support, they will use it to achieve their goals, with no apologies. I have wondered what new words we could come up with to reflect equality (where's Will S. when we need him!). Many of the new words do not flow very well, but they seem to be the best we can do at the moment. Sorry about getting on the soapbox, it just gets close to home whenever I read or hear the "n" word. All the best, kat |
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Subject: RE: 10 Little Indians From: ddw Date: 13 Aug 99 - 01:58 AM Hi Kat.... I understand what you're saying about not using words that are hurtful, but that wasn't the point I was trying to get across. My general rant about PCness is aimed at the idiots who want to change "chairman" to "chairperson" or some other perfectly good word to some unpronouncable gobbledegook in an effort to deny there are differences in sex or race or creed or ethnicity or whatever. If it's important, I don't have a problem with "chairwoman," even though I find it a little silly. What sparked the major part of that rant was — I though I had made pretty clear — the RETRO PCness of changing Twain's writing so as not to offend the people who weren't really listening and understanding. Twain had something important to say, and I don't think gutting it and offering PC pablum is the way to get people to hear him. It's a little off topic, tho' maybe instructive about the kind of idiocy overzealous PCers can get into that a Washington, D.C. city official used the word "niggardly" in a conversation with a friend and got fired for it. A black staff member heard it, didn't understand it and raised hell about his "racism." Then came the REALLY absurd part. The fired man happened to be homosexual, so the gay community got up on its hind legs and screamed bloody murder. He was rehired BECAUSE HE WAS GAY. Now how stupid can you get? He should never have been fired in the first place, but what the hell does being gay have to do with anything here? I have nothing whatsoever against anybody because of the color of his/her skin or sexual orientation or whatever, but I get really upset with stupidity, especially if it is then shoved down everybody's throats by a cadre of people who make careers of being offended by everything around them. **************** I just reread this and — as I am wont to do — I may have come on a little strong, so I'll go out of here with a couple of caveats; 1) None of the above is aimed at anyone person in particular — especially not you, gentle Kat — it is just an attempt to explain something that I feel very strongly about. 2) The world needs more beauty, and that includes beautiful language. A lot of what's being done to the language not only sounds like hell, it obfuscates meanings in an attempt to say something which will offend no one. Most things that don't offend SOMEONE have absolutely no meaning. We can say what we want in many ways without offending people, but butchering the language doesn't have to be one of them. Shalom, ddw |
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Subject: RE: 10 Little Indians From: katlaughing Date: 12 Aug 99 - 07:35 PM K~, I should have said people of colour or black Americans or whatever. My main point was why promote things which are hurtful, esp. to segments of any population which has been oppressed and denigrated in the past? There are so many positive things of historical significance to minority comunities, which weren't common knowledge,why not focus on those, instead? My son-in-law doesn't like being mistaken for an African American, either. When my daughter is out with their sons, without him, people ask her if her husband is black. She says, "No, he is Antiguan". Her point is that we are all part of the human race and there should be no distinctions. However, there were distinctions and still are, which are very derogatory and until we can be rid of them, in general society (not in the historically significant literature, songs, etc.), I believe we need distinctions which are NOT derogatory. I use blacks as an example. This could also hold true for any segment of the population. There have been other very intersting discussions on this, here, before. You might do a forum search to see what others have to say about the songs they choose to promote. I think one such thread was entitled "Song Appropriateness". Thanks,'ert! kat |
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Subject: RE: 10 Little Indians From: Bert Date: 12 Aug 99 - 05:19 PM I quite agree with you 'ghing. Ktildas, sometimes we have to correct things that we've done wrone in the past. I can see what you mean about labels though. The term I like is "People" Bert. |
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Subject: RE: 10 Little Indians From: K~~ Date: 12 Aug 99 - 09:59 AM What a can of worms, but ok, I have to wade in on ddw's side, PC goes too far when it tries to 'correct' the past. You cannot judge the past by the present, it just doesn't fit. People, ideas, knowledge, thought changes from generation to generation and from culture to culture. Another thing - why are all blacks living in the Americas automatically 'African-American' not all blacks are from Africa and I have a couple Australian Aborigional friends who resent the hell out of being slapped with a PC label that does not even apply to them. Besides, hyphenating Americans is divisive, my own string of hyphens would take up a page and a half, let's just dump the clique-y-esque hyphenating all together. |
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Subject: RE: 10 Little Indians From: K~~ Date: 12 Aug 99 - 09:50 AM |
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Subject: RE: 10 Little Indians From: katlaughing Date: 12 Aug 99 - 01:28 AM Well, when I was avidly reading all the Agatha Christie our library had, it was first called Ten Little Indians, then And Then There Were None. This is the first I've ever heard of the former title. As far as PC goes, words like n*%%^# are offensive and hurtful, esp. to my son-in-law who is from Antigua and, as a far as my daughter and I are concerned, for their twin boys. I understand the historical context and agree with you ddw as far as Twain goes. And, I loved to hear my grandma read Little Black Sambo, but sometimes, I believe, we need to let go, even of pieces which may make us nostalgic. Yes, we can use them to educate; yes, it is important for people to remember; but, that does not mean we should use those terms in our common dialogue, as a sort of backlash against the extreme pc-ness which has come about. There needs to be a balance. Just think, please, for one moment, how an African American might feel if they happened upon one of these postings, without the context of others? Or if someone Asian, visiting the Mudcat for the first time, saw the thread about the old "Chinee" man. Yes, later they may understand the historical context in which these may be presented, IF they ever come back after seeing such things. Sorry, I for one, believe we need to respect one another enough NOT to use such terms and to move on to new and more enlightened ways of communicating. Preserve the old songs with derogatory words, use them in reenactments and in other educational settings, if need be, but let's not bash all things PC...some are worthwhile and life-affirming. Respectfully, katlaughing |
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Subject: RE: 10 Little Indians From: ddw in windsor Date: 11 Aug 99 - 11:56 PM All this political correctness -- particularly if it's RETRO PCness -- runs me nuts. A few years ago a theatre troupe here in Windsor did a version of Huck Finn with all the "bad" words taken out. I wouldn't go to it after I hear an exerpt on CBC radio. The scene was the one where Jim has been caught and about to be thrown in jail or beaten or something -- it's been about 45 years since I read it -- and Huck is pleading Jim's case by saying "he's a good nigger." That got changed to "he's a good man." Quite apart from the fact the plagerist "playwright" was messing with Twain's prose, it bugged the hell out of me that he had missed the most important point of what Twain was saying. When HF was written, many didn't consider African-Americans even to be men; they were "niggers," nothing more. Men would be praiseworthy, so to say Jim was a good man was meaningless, almost redundant. But for a white boy to say he was a "GOOD nigger" was high praise indeed, something that even the most bigoted would have to pause and think about. It had impact, conveyed a whole new meaning and new way of thinking. That, if you've read the body of Twain's work, seems to me the most logical interpretation of what Twain was doing. He made a career of making people look at how silly most of their attitudes, beliefs, etc. were (or are). It came out subtly throughout his work, but became screamingly obvious in his Letters From The Earth -- the collection of essays and short stories published posthumously. Twain set out to do what I tell all the PC idiots they should be doing -- working on changing attitudes, not words. Word meanings often change, but couching bad attitudes in different words never helped anybody. Whew! ddw -- going for a walk...... |
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Subject: RE: 10 Little Indians From: emily rain Date: 11 Aug 99 - 07:13 PM i'm with you, 'vamp. i think it's important to remind ourselves every now and then just how blatantly awful we were... before we became repressed and furtively awful... ooops! i'm about to succumb to the great white guilt. *thinking happy thoughts* |
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Subject: RE: 10 Little Indians From: MLCVamp@aol.com Date: 11 Aug 99 - 11:33 AM RE Agatha Christie: I'm too lazy to go downstairs and search, but I'm fairly sure the edition I have is AND THEN THERE WERE NONE -- a U.S.-published paperback. It's definitely not 10 LITTLE NIGGERS! Title changed for the U.S. market, most likely, since that was done to several of her other mysteries for no good reason I could figure (the new "American" title, in most cases, was no better than the original, as far as I could see) -- as a reader, I saw that as sneaky and underhanded, a trick to induce the casual buyer to buy a book he/she had already read, thinking it was new On politically correct changes to ethnic allusions in children's books, I was a bit distressed when the original text of LITTLE BLACK SAMBO was suppressed. OK, it might be the wrong thing to read to toddlers nowadays, but it is a cultural artifact and therefore should be AVAILABLE. (It didn't even refer to "blacks" in the U.S. sense, but to India-type Indians.) And it really bugs me that we can't get Disney's SONG OF THE SOUTH in video. It is of historical interest; some people might want to watch it even if they don't approve of it. |
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Subject: RE: 10 Little Indians From: K~~ Date: 11 Aug 99 - 10:33 AM My whole missing post was a speculation that the verse here presented by Wolfgang refered not to American Inians at all but seemed to be about East (subcontinental) Indians - hence all of the English references. If it's English in origin it seems far more likely that they'd be talking about (down) people in their own empire, rather than the American Indians. It is all rather gruesome, isn't it? |
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Subject: RE: 10 Little Indians From: Ballygally Whistler Date: 08 Aug 99 - 10:00 PM Thanks for the U/Pipes Wolfgang,,,,,,,,,,NOT,,, colin |
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Subject: RE: 10 Little Indians From: alison Date: 08 Aug 99 - 09:21 PM As far as I know the Agatha Christie book is still "Ten little niggers", It was the movie version that they called "And then there were none." joe, I'm on the Kiddidles mailing list... they've changed a few around.... the "old woman who lived in a shoe" doesn't "whip them all soundly and send them to bed".. she "scolds them all soundly......." I've heard kindies do "Baa baa white sheep too....." just to keep things even..... slainte alison |
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Subject: RE: 10 Little Indians From: emily rain Date: 08 Aug 99 - 04:33 PM this reminds me of a couple weeks ago when i was singing to my wee charge as she bouced on my knee: "this is the way the ladies ride/the ladies ride, the ladies ride/this is the way the ladies ride/so early in the morning" followed by "gentlemen" and "cowboys", each time the bouncing increasing in vigorousness. it struck me how easily the rhyme flowed out of my mouth, while i was unconciously expecting her to figure out that of course a woman can ride as roughly as any cowboy and even be a cowboy if she wants... hmm. ridiculous. why bother filling her head with nonsense if her parents are just going to have to take it out later? i changed it to bunnies, zebras, and elephants. the full length version of "ten little indians" made me want to run away and hide and never look another native in the eye. it's a relic of historical and sociological interest, but, as far as i'm concerned, no longer useful for its intended purpose. ick. |
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Subject: RE: 10 Little Indians From: MLCVamp@aol.com Date: 07 Aug 99 - 04:49 PM IIRC, this was the title of a murder mystery by Agatha Christie, changed from the original title, which was indeed something like TEN LITTLE NIGGERS. Nowadays I believe the title under which the book can be found is AND THEN THERE WERE NONE. On the whole, I think it's a Good Thing to remove offensive references if no change to the actual content of a text is involved. |
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Subject: RE: 10 Little Indians From: Peter T. Date: 06 Aug 99 - 05:47 PM Not to mention "~th do us part..." |
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Subject: RE: 10 Little Indians From: Bert Date: 06 Aug 99 - 05:20 PM Welcome aboard Ktildatilda! yes there are Mysterious powers at work. There's possums and mudcats and tiples, banjos and bagpipes and fipples... the list is almost endless, all we were missing was a couple of tildas. Bert. (whoops forgot we've got some Waltzing Ma~~) |
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Subject: RE: 10 Little Indians From: K~~ Date: 06 Aug 99 - 04:02 PM I tried to post here but it showed up on the duplicate topic. Sorry it was the ghost in the machine not me. If this shows up over there too, I'll retire for the day. Are there POWERS working this board? |
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Subject: RE: 10 Little Indians From: K~~ Date: 06 Aug 99 - 03:58 PM It sure looks like what I was after Wolfgang, thanks. Reading it, it looks a lot like the poem/song refers to East Indians and not American Indians, dosen't it? Is it English in origin, that would make the East Indian thing reasonable and the Amerind improbable. By the way, all, thanks for the help. This was the first time I've posted to such a board, and you've all been most kind. :)
-Joe Offer, 19 Dec 2004- |
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Subject: Lyr Add: TEN LITTLE INDIANS From: Joe Offer Date: 06 Aug 99 - 03:15 PM Hmmm. Could it be that the "Indian" version of this song is also no longer considered to be politically correct? I couldn't find it at Kididdles which is a pretty good site that sometimes lapses into the murky depths of the Politically Correct. Anyhow, I don't mind posting the lyrics, just a little different from what's posted above. -Joe Offer- TEN LITTLE INDIANS One little, two little, three little Indians,
JRO Here's the entry from the Traditional Ballad Index: Ten Little InjunsDESCRIPTION: Ten Indians stand in a line, one goes home and there are nine. Each disappears in a new way until only one is left. The last one lives alone until "he got married and then there were none"AUTHOR: Septimus Winner (1868), with adaptions by Frank Green and others EARLIEST DATE: 1868 (sheet music published by Sep. Winner of Philadelphia) KEYWORDS: humorous Black(s) Indians(Am.) | counting down FOUND IN: US(Ap) REFERENCES (8 citations): Richardson/Spaeth-AmericanMountainSongs, pp. 84-85, "Ten Little Niggers" (1 text, 1 tune) Heart-Songs, p. 357, "Ten Little Niggers" (1 text, 1 tune) Opie/Opie-OxfordDictionaryOfNurseryRhymes 376, "Ten little nigger boys went out to dine" (2 texts); 511, "Tom Brown's two little Indian boys" (1 text) Baring-Gould-AnnotatedMotherGoose #818, pp. 304-305, "(Ten little Injuns standin' in a line)" Delamar-ChildrensCountingOutRhymes, pp. 50-51, "Ten Injuns" (1 text) Averill-CampSongsFolkSongs, p. 259, "Ten Little Indians" (notes only) Wolf-AmericanSongSheets, #2295, p. 154, "Ten Little Injuns" (1 reference) cf. Delamar-ChildrensCountingOutRhymes, p. 18, "Big Indians" (not really this, but it's a decrementing song bout Indians) Roud #13512 BROADSIDES: Bodleian, Harding B 11(1572), "Ten Little Niggers" ("Ten little niggers going out to dine"), unknown, n.d.; also Firth c.16(335), Firth b.27(94), "Ten Little Niggers"; Firth c.16(334), "Ten Little Ministers" ("Ten little ministers, sitting in a line"), unknown, 1874; also Johnson Ballads fol. 386a, "A new version of a popular song" CROSS-REFERENCES: cf. "Ninety-Nine Bottles of Beer" (counting) cf. "Eight Little Cylinders" (counting) cf. "Ten Little Indians" ("John Brown Had a Little Indian") (chorus) SAME TUNE: Ten Little Furies (FIle: Tawn080) O Belinda (File: OpGa046) NOTES [400 words]: Opie/Opie-OxfordDictionaryOfNurseryRhymes 511 is one verse "Tom Brown's two little Indian boys; One ran away, The other wouldn't stay, Tom Brown's two little Indian boys." (Opie/Opie-OxfordDictionaryOfNurseryRhymes has an early date c.1744 from Tommy Thumb's Pretty Song Book). The Opie/Opie-OxfordDictionaryOfNurseryRhymes 376 texts are "Ten little nigger boys went out to dine" and "Ten little Injuns standin' in a line." Opie/Opie-OxfordDictionaryOfNurseryRhymes 376 lists the following names and publication dates of adaptations: "Ten Little Niggers" Feb. 1869 [According to the Baring-Goulds, this is by Frank Green. The Opies say it might have been written in late 1868 - RBW] "Ten Little Negroes" Mar. 1869 "Ten Little Darkies" June 1869 "The Ten Youthful Africans" Sep. 1869 "Ten Little Darkies" c.1870 "Ten Little Negro Boys" Dec. 1874 The things that reduce the number vary from text to text. So, for example, for the ministers of broadside Johnson Ballads fol. 386a, the last minister "was so very Low, Everybody told him they thought he'd better go." For broadside Harding B 11(1572) the last one gets married and raises a family of ten more. Some versions, including Winner's original, share the chorus with "Ten Little Indians" ("John Brown Had a Little Indian"). See Tim Coughlan, Now Shoon the Romano Gillie, (Cardiff,2001), #165, pp. 437-441, "Yeck Bitto Rom'ni Chal Churyin ap a Ruck" ["One little Gypsy boy climbing up a tree"] [Romani-English text reported by Leland, English Gypsy Songs (1875)]. Coughlan: "Leland's informant seems to have been remarkably quick off the mark. [Septimus] Winner's original set was published in London in July 1868..... Also included by Leland is a second set from the pen of Hubert Smith .... ["Desh Tani Chavis Duriken," also quoted by Coughlan from Leland]. - BS For more on Septimus Winner, see the notes to "Listen to the Mockingbird." This appears to have been parodied by none other than Charles Dodgson (Lewis Carroll), who in his report "Twelve Months in a Curatorship" wrote the following about the Wine Committee: Tuns: 'Ten Little Nigger' Four frantic Members of a chosen Committee! One of them resigned, then there were three. Three thoughtful members: they may pull us through! One was invalided -- there there were Two. Two tranquil members: much may yet be done! But they never came together, so I had to work with one.- RBW Last updated in version 6.4 File: OO2376
Ten Little Indians (II)DESCRIPTION: "One, two, three, little Indians, ... Ten, little Indian boys." Game steps: "Open your gates and let us through"; "Not without your beck and bow"; "Here's our beck and there's your bow"AUTHOR: unknown EARLIEST DATE: 1907 (Greig/Duncan8) KEYWORDS: nonballad Indians(Am.) FOUND IN: Britain(Scotland(Aber)) REFERENCES (1 citation): Greig/Duncan8 1601, "Ten Little Indian Boys" (1 text, 1 tune) Roud #12976 CROSS-REFERENCES: cf. "Ten Little Indians (John Brown Had a Little Indian)" (one verse) File: GrD81601 Go to the Ballad Search form Go to the Ballad Index Instructions The Ballad Index Copyright 2022 by Robert B. Waltz and David G. Engle. |
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Subject: RE: 10 Little Indians From: Bert Date: 06 Aug 99 - 12:53 PM Wolfgang, We had an illustrated version of that one when we were kids. It was extremely politically incorrect because in that version they were "Ten Little Nigger Boys". Bert. |
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Subject: Lyr Add: THE LITTLE INDIANS From: Wolfgang Date: 06 Aug 99 - 10:09 AM THE LITTLE INDIANS Ten little Indian boys went out to dine; One choked his little self and then there were nine. Nine little Indian boys sat up very late; One overslept himself and then there were eight. Eight little Indian boys traveling in Devon; One said he'd stay there and then there were seven. Seven little Indian boys chopping up sticks; One chopped himself in halves and then there were six. Six little Indian boys playing with a hive; A bumblebee stung one and then there were five. Five little Indian boys going in for law; One got in Chancery and then there were four. Four little Indian boys going out to sea; A red herring swallowed one and then there were three. Three little Indian boys walking in the zoo; A big bear hugged one and then there were two. Two little Indian boys sitting in the sun; One got frizzled up and then there was one. One little Indian boy left all alone; He went and hanged himself and then there were none. But I never heard this one sung ...Wolfgang ^^ |
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Subject: RE: 10 Little Indians From: K~~ Date: 06 Aug 99 - 10:01 AM Wow, thanks for the quick turn around. So now I've got the tune and the nursery rhyme, but isn't there a version that tells about how one little Indian went off and did something, followed by all the other doing other things until there was only one left? Anybody? |
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Subject: RE: 10 Little Indians From: Wolfgang Date: 06 Aug 99 - 09:56 AM I thought such a song would be easy enough for a translation program. Here's how the second verse looks after the EG-GE treatment:
10 few, nine little, eight small Indian
Wolfgang |
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Subject: RE: 10 Little Indians From: Wolfgang Date: 06 Aug 99 - 09:39 AM go here Wolfgang |
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Subject: Children's songs From: K~~ Date: 06 Aug 99 - 09:31 AM Does any one know the words and possibly where to find the music for '10 Little Indians'? Any and all versions appreciated. Thanks. |
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