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Subject: RE: BS: Seeger Smothers Party- Left=right? From: katlaughing Date: 23 Mar 10 - 04:36 PM ...capitol letter folk.. What? Do you mean like yourself? So I guess the music of the civil rights movement such as We Shall Overcome, War, Blowin' in the Wind, etc. didn't change anyone's mind, huh? And, where is it that someone, in this country can adhere to folk music only? Unless they are living in an isolated enclave there is no way they can escape the rest of the world and its music. Also, the days of Hating Hippies, cutting off their hair, etc. are long gone...they were only a small part of that era, the rest were actually doing things like marching, going to jail for their beliefs, aiding young men who didn't want to be cannon fodder...those people are now in in the mainstream, by and large, even if they do still love/sing folk music, and I don't hear any negative BS about hippies, etc. But then, I am living in puir ol' isolated Coloradah, agin, wadda I know? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Seeger Smothers Party- Left=right? From: olddude Date: 23 Mar 10 - 05:04 PM I think I said in a prior post, anyone is free to write any song they wish and perform any genre of song they wish in a free country. Now if anyone else finds it interesting fine for them. But trying to tell people how it should be with music is like trying to put a size 12 foot in a size 6 sneaker. It won't ever fit ... There is not 1 side only in music, there is music people want to hear or enjoy and music they don't want to hear ... if what you are saying was of any appeal to anyone then it would be performed written and played ... but for the 5 or so people who many want to hear it ... no folk club wants to undertake that and lose patrons ... my take anyway, but you are sure most welcome to your own opinion. Music is a matter of taste. ME I don't like rap music, I am on record for that, but then, rappers don't like my old country either ... and that is fine actually. I would say, write your songs or sing whatever you want ... If someone wants to listen ... that is ok with me ... but you cannot force people into a box on music ... it doesn't work that way ... Anyway I wish you only good things |
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Subject: RE: BS: Seeger Smothers Party- Left=right? From: Little Hawk Date: 23 Mar 10 - 05:32 PM "there are more love songs than any other type. Should they always be balanced with hate songs?" Abso-fuckin'-LUTELY!!! ;-) Of course! Let's have equal time for hate songs. Consider, for example, this great hate song by Howling Eddie Cranshow: Scum Are Only Scum! ( a mild protest song) I play in all the street fairs I fiddle and I hum With my gitbox and fiddle Which clearly pleases some It pleases all the old folk And it pleases homeless bums But the ones it doesn't please Are the bloody fecking scum! Because scum are only scum They're ugly and they're daft They know they're only scum Without artistic craft They're rotten stinking bleeders Who all should get the shaft! Yes, scum are rotten scum They're rotten fecking scum Let's toss 'em in the Channel And provide no bloody raft! Scum are fecking losers Scum are stupid sods If I could get me hands on them I'd give 'em all the rod I'd punch their ugly faces I'd call 'em nasty names I'd tell 'em all to go to hell I'd set 'em all aflame Because scum are only scum They're ugly and they're daft They know they're only scum Without artistic craft They're rotten stinking bleeders Who all should get the shaft! Yes, scum are rotten scum They're rotten fecking scum Let's toss 'em in the Channel And provide no bloody raft! Scum are stupid useless gits Scum are bloody fools They stand on other people's toes They break Queensberry's rules They will not share a bit of bread They don't respect the poor They eat in fancy restaurants And act like bloody boors Because scum are only scum They're ugly and they're daft They know they're only scum Without artistic craft They're rotten stinking bleeders Who all should get the shaft! Yes, scum are rotten scum They're rotten fecking scum Let's toss 'em in the Channel And provide no bloody raft! Don't dare to come around near me If you're a bleedin' scum For if you do I'll take my shoe And plant it up your bum! You might think that I'm helpless You'll find I'm bloody not! I'll box your ears and black your eyes You rotten scummy sot! Because scum are only scum They're ugly and they're daft They know they're only scum Without artistic craft They're rotten stinking bleeders Who all should get the shaft! Yes, scum are rotten scum They're rotten fecking scum Let's toss 'em in the Channel And provide no bloody raft! I wish these rotten scum would die And leave good folks alone They poison every public place 'Cause they're got hearts of stone Their lifestyle is contemptible Their manners are obscene They've all got little beady eyes And their tongues are coated green! Yes, scum are only scum They're ugly and they're daft They know they're only scum Without artistic craft They're rotten stinking bleeders Who all should get the shaft! Yes, scum are rotten scum They're rotten fecking scum Let's toss 'em in the Channel And provide no bloody raft! Howling Eddie Cranshaw, Folkways of East Anglia 2009 The above dialectic appears to be aimed primarily at "upper class twits" and the like, people who are roundly despised by Howling Eddie, a man who is proud of his humble working class roots and not afraid to drop his aitches in polite company... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Seeger Smothers Party- Left=right? From: Don Firth Date: 23 Mar 10 - 05:48 PM To those who think some of us are being a bit hard on Conrad and his viewpoint: I think you need to take a look at these pictures. It might give you a clue as to why a lot of people here don't take kindly to what Conrad is peddling. If you still don't understand, then I'm afraid your moral compass has lost its needle. You see, we've been here before, and these are a few of the things that happened: THIS. And THIS. And THIS. And THIS. And THIS. And THIS. And THIS. And THIS. And all thought by THESE folks to be making the world a better place. Conrad might like THIS. It's the cover of a piece of music from Germany in the 1930s. The title means something like "Hail to the Chief." The above are images from over half a century ago. Caused a lot of problems. Millions—many millions—of people wound up dead. The following images are from today: THIS. And THIS. And THIS. And THIS. Who do you suppose is THIS young man's hero? If THIS doesn't give you cold chills, turn your stomach, and/or make you very angry, then as a human being, I would say that they may as well put a tag on your toe, throw a sheet over you, and close the drawer. Because morally speaking, to all intents and purposes, you're dead. In The Inferno, Dante had a few things to say about people like that. Don Firth |
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Subject: RE: BS: Seeger Smothers Party- Left=right? From: *#1 PEASANT* Date: 23 Mar 10 - 06:16 PM So don I dont hold such views but you seem to be afraid to let people choose what views to hold thats called freedom- I guess freedom is for you what you appreciate |
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Subject: RE: BS: Seeger Smothers Party- Left=right? From: Little Hawk Date: 23 Mar 10 - 06:18 PM Why in the world should I connect any of that stuff with Conrad, Don? I thought you would provide links to things he himself has said. Instead you provide links to pictures of violent things a great number of other people, both living and dead, have done, implying that Conrad is for all those things. WTF is that about??? How does it in any way implicate Conrad? Would you like it if someone posted a bunch of pictures of child abuse and genocide here and then said, "This tells you all you need to know about Don Firth." ??? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Seeger Smothers Party- Left=right? From: *#1 PEASANT* Date: 23 Mar 10 - 06:18 PM remember also that many things we find in our society today - alternative lifestyles, alternative moralities public behaviours would have been thought terrible by our ancestors only a few generations back. The question is how do we use music to get them to talk to one another rather than to be hostile and keep them apart. You dont think all voices can sing in the choir....Sad! Conrad |
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Subject: RE: BS: Seeger Smothers Party- Left=right? From: Rapparee Date: 23 Mar 10 - 06:52 PM Would they? Or were they, like prostitution, simply ignored and assumed to be "for the best"? Oscar Wilde certainly had an alternative lifestyle, and his "boyfriend", Lord Alfred Douglas, wasn't the nicest person. All of Whitechapel, New York's Five Points, San Francisco's Tenderloin...they were alternate lifestyles. So were the Shaker Communities, Amana, and other such places. Even the Wobblies, the WCTU and the suffrage movement were alternative lifestyles. So what else is new? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Seeger Smothers Party- Left=right? From: Stringsinger Date: 23 Mar 10 - 06:58 PM This thread is appropriate to the music side of Mudcat. 1. Whenever music and politics are discussed, it seems stylish to separate the two as if there is a neutral position musicians are supposed to take. In fact, most artists have a political statement to make one way or at least a point of view in their music. There are never generally two sides taken at once. It can be argued that all artistic expression is political since it reflects the views of the artist. Pete always presented songs that did not necessarily reflect his views on humanity or politics. The Smothers Brothers were musical satirists not unlike those on SNL. 2.Pete has never staged a political rally in his concerts. He has played at rallies for unions, and some political organizations but his concerts were not rallies. It is not censorship to exclude songs that don't reflect your political or personal point of view. With this logic, any religious songs could be construed as censorship also. If one is looking for a "fair and balanced" approach to a point of view from any artist, this is in vain. Was Pete a leftist? Of course. Did he have to give the stage over to some right-wing country singer like Toby Keith to balance his program? Of course not. 3. A folksinger/writer can do both concerts and political rallies. They are not the same. Pete has appealed to a broad spectrum of audiences because he has not conducted political rallies as concerts. Many artists are political organizers but they do so without necessarily turning their concerts into rallies. 4. The documentary showed Pete's ability to think through ideas and carefully assess them. All "politicos" can't be painted with the same brush. The idea that the folk revival was manipulated by political activism sounds like the criticism given by the John Birch Society, The Anti-Communist Christian Crusade and Joseph McCarthy. Folk music is absent from television now because it had been co-opted by the commercial music industry and they squeezed the last drop of profit from it. In the days of the folk revival, not every other college kid carried a guitar. There were many who didn't know much about folk music or cared little. Folk music is not any bigger than it was because it is not a product of popular music. The political ideologies require a specific definition. Not all Lefties thought alike. The Kremlin did not hand down edicts to American folkies. This is simply not true although it has been used as a pretext to intimidate those who were deemed subversive in music. The Beatles were attacked as anti-American by these vicious Bircher groups. (Check "Rhythm, Riots and Revolution" put out by them). There was never a real monolithic set of political ideas by early Leftists. Woody Guthrie himself was thrown out of the Communist Party for being too radical. Pete had left the Party a long time ago. Burl Ives was a leftist for a while until he was attacked for his views. Josh White was threatened by the FBI. There were a lot of lefties that had different ideas. Some were anarchists, socialists, communists, and there were differences in the ideas that encompassed these categories. Nothing has gone wrong. The popular music industry dropped the stereotypical image of folk music in its marketing campaign because it relies on trends that change from decade to decade. In essence, it has nothing to do with real folk music. It is true that the Left was responsible in many ways for the folk revival but not in any doctrinaire or systemic way. It was an outgrowth of the time that culminated in the 60's. The Popular Front of the 30's and early 40's was pretty much universally accepted in the US until the cold war manipulations by demagogues of McCarthy's ilk. So WWW what went wrong? More than politics though. Conrad |
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Subject: RE: BS: Seeger Smothers Party- Left=right? From: *#1 PEASANT* Date: 23 Mar 10 - 11:05 PM Did he have to give the stage over to some right-wing country singer like Toby Keith to balance his program? Of course not. exactly! but he would have been doing a better job and more worthy of his sainthood if he opened the floor that he alone almost, possessed to others. This is what you do when you are confident of your position. Who cares let the audience decide if you are primarily interested in music. Seeger was primairly interested in using the power of music to support only one point of view. In this way he can not be separated from those who on the other side of issues who did the same. (german nationalism on and on) And he was successful. The possibility of someone doing the same thing on a from the bad or dark side is scarry. But if Seeger did it -that makes it right...No....the power folk music was simply used without competition for political purposes. That is never right. That makes his concerts political rallys hammering at one political view alone endlessly. Yes he did other things and yes he fought for good causes. But the fact that he manipulated the interest via music on behalf of one point of view is not good. I am sure that If he had been more balanced more inclusive the people would have made the right decisions anyway. So why not diversify access to media and stages? He could have done this. So not my problem his. Conrad |
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Subject: RE: BS: Seeger Smothers Party- Left=right? From: WFDU - Ron Olesko Date: 23 Mar 10 - 11:33 PM Conrad, you can keep swinging, but you are missing every pitch. Your ideals of what a performer should do with this so-called "balance" makes very little sense. You are looking for a debate, not a performance. Your idea of "diversify" has little merit and it is a problem in your eyes only. Keep at it though, your attempts to justify your position and reasoning make for good theater. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Seeger Smothers Party- Left=right? From: *#1 PEASANT* Date: 23 Mar 10 - 11:40 PM We need fewer performers, even though we do not have enough and more emphasis on singing and the real folk experience. I want to hear ordinary people on the radio and at festivals not performers who have money for unions and fly across the country. I believe that all desire their fair share and are worthy but we have to do something about the ordinary folk or folk in caps as you put it. I see only exclusion via branding and excessive profit taking. Conrad |
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Subject: RE: BS: Seeger Smothers Party- Left=right? From: artbrooks Date: 23 Mar 10 - 11:50 PM I'm unclear on the meaning of your reference to "German nationalism". Pete Seegar is principally a post-WW2 individual, especially as far as him influence upon the American public is concerned - you aren't confusing him with Woody Guthrie, are you? It seems that your premise here is that every musician - and (by extension) every public figure - should see him/herself obligated to give equal time to the other point of view. That is, every minute that Pete spends (or ever spent) on a stage should be matched by another musician of equal talent and repute (sorry, but I can't think of one) at the same time, on the same stage. Alternately, he should sing songs espousing a viewpoint with which he disagrees, presumably with the same fervor and conviction. That would logically give us John McCain giving speeches praising the concept of health care reform or (more historically) Martin Luther King Jr. preaching the virtues of segregation. I think that your position is fatally flawed. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Seeger Smothers Party- Left=right? From: Don Firth Date: 23 Mar 10 - 11:52 PM Jaysus, Little Hawk!! Conrad is advocating a philosophy and a world view that prevailed in much of Europe in the mid-twentieth century and engendered the atrocities that are shown in the pictures. Or if he is not advocating the philosophy itself, he is advocating that if it should rear its head again, we should not only tolerate it, we should welcome it in our social and musical circles. Would you like it if someone posted a bunch of pictures of child abuse and genocide here and then said, "This tells you all you need to know about Don Firth." ??? That, Little Hawk, doesn't deserve an answer. Once again, you cling to Dante's "colorless neutrality," no matter how much you try to deny it. You say you believe this, that, and the other thing, but then you criticize people who take a strong stand on important issues. Conrad, I believe in freedom, including the freedom to hold whatever views you want. But when you speak out in favor of a philosophy that advocates the kind of things that led to what is shown in the photos I linked to, then I feel it's my duty as a moral human being to speak out strongly against it. That's freedom. I have the freedom to criticize what you advocate. So don't you--or Little Hawk--try to muzzle me! Don Firth |
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Subject: RE: BS: Seeger Smothers Party- Left=right? From: olddude Date: 24 Mar 10 - 12:05 AM maybe ya can drop old Pete an email explaining your position, do let us know how it goes, you can contact your folk clubs also. let us know how that goes also. we will wait to hear how ya made out |
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Subject: RE: BS: Seeger Smothers Party- Left=right? From: olddude Date: 24 Mar 10 - 12:23 AM guys, it is clear that nobody says this stuff. he is fucking with everyone and having fun . that is the only logic here |
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Subject: RE: BS: Seeger Smothers Party- Left=right? From: katlaughing Date: 24 Mar 10 - 02:06 AM ...He could have done this. So not my problem his. I'll bet ol' Pete is sure gonna lose sleep over that! Criminey! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Seeger Smothers Party- Left=right? From: Little Hawk Date: 24 Mar 10 - 02:12 AM I'm not exactly clear what the heck Conrad is advocating, Don....and, believe me, I've been trying to figure it out, but he seems to talk in circles. What I am questioning is your hysterical overreaction to him which appears to me to be verging on some kind of bizarre obsession. You seem to want to equate him, Conrad, with every form of fascist political evil you can dredge up out of past history, and I've no idea what basis you have for doing that. What exactly has Conrad said or done that terrifies you so? Your notion that I am showing colorless neutrality is laughable and utterly without foundation. ;-) It's hilarious. I keep hearing it from you and it indicates to me that you simply don't comprehend anything I say...or you're too impatient and intent upon your own arguments to bother even trying to understand what I'm driving at. What am I colorlessly neutral about when it comes to politics? I detest fascism, I always have despised it, I detest the Republicans, I am utterly against the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan whether Bush pushes them or Obama does, I'd like to see the major USA banks that just got bailed out nationalized, and their boards of directors put in jail for defrauding the public. I'd like to see Bush and Cheney on trial as war criminals. You think I'm neutral? Ha! I'm about as neutral as Che Guevara, mister. I despise the political right and the goddamn corporations who engineer war and I long for the day of their utter demise. But I don't regard Conrad's confused ramblings on this forum as being important enough for anyone to get upset about. It's a tiny tempest in an even tinier teapot. I think you're emotionally addicted to fighting with a few specific individuals on this forum that you've identified as "one of THEM" (the evil people), Don, and that you achieve nothing by so doing except stressing yourself out, stressing others out, blowing off a lot of hot air, and creating longstanding and profitless feuds with a few people that can never be resolved and that won't achieve one useful thing in terms of human rights, free speech or anything else that actually matters. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Seeger Smothers Party- Left=right? From: *#1 PEASANT* Date: 24 Mar 10 - 07:45 AM I am not a supporter of fascism, at all never was. I do however support a free society in which everyone has the freedom to play and create music, peacefully and express their opinions peacefully- all heads can be reared even the ugly ones. Just so they keep their hands to themselves and remain peaceful. How could anyone have a problem with that? From my conservative, relatively, position there are lots of things that I dont agree with fascism is one of them but I realize that my freedom is dependant upon the freedom extended to others. Don, I lived in Munich, I worked with the guys who were present when the camps were liberated the stories are terrible. I oppose it, that said the fascism you fear also understood the power of music. It was used to support their cause effectivly and was an important tool. They thought their point of view to be good just as the lefties of the 50s thought that their cause was good. No matter what the cause manipulation of the politics of the nation by the power of music is not helpful. To avoid this one would think that opening the stages and media to a wider range of political philosophy and diversity would help. We have to work keep music music rather than political mind control dominated by one point of view even if we believe that point of view to be right. Those who wish to move politics around can always go to political rallys. I am opposed to commercialism it has a right to exist but should be minimalized. Commercialism should serve FOLK MUSIC which should be a lifeway and not primairly a business. When it grows as a lifeway the commercial sector which assists it will also grow. No one political view should be used to brand a genre of music or group.All arab's arent terrorists, all folkies aren't lefties and we have to find out how branding happens and find a way to end it. Conrad |
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Subject: RE: BS: Seeger Smothers Party- Left=right? From: Rapparee Date: 24 Mar 10 - 10:25 AM If I buy a ticket to a concert by Pete Seeger, Tom and Dick Smothers, Joan Baez, and Tom Paxton I'm going to listen to them. When I recently went to a Solas concert, I went to listen to Solas. When I bought a ticket to a concert by Tommy Makem, a concert by the Clancys and Robbie O'Connell, to a PDQ Bach concert, I went to hear them. If I want to go to a concert called "Songs of Nazi Germany" I'll buy a ticket and go. It's called "Freedom of Choice" and I'm sick and tired of people telling me what I can or cannot do in the name of "diversity" and "political correctness." |
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Subject: RE: BS: Seeger Smothers Party- Left=right? From: EBarnacle Date: 24 Mar 10 - 10:56 AM You cannot send Pete an e-mail. He is, at least in that respect, a trog. He can be contacted by phone or letter. I believe the phone is an unlisted number. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Seeger Smothers Party- Left=right? From: WFDU - Ron Olesko Date: 24 Mar 10 - 12:10 PM "No one political view should be used to brand a genre of music or group." Why not? That makes it a genre in itself by definition. Conrad, you are twisting definitions to fit some sort of ideal that seems to be uniquely your own. You seem to feel that by having a protest song you are excluding the opposite point of view. The idea of freedom is to allow both to do whatever they choose. The idea of freedom is that you do not have to accept and you can fight that point of view. This occurs. It really seems you are building scenarios that do not exist just for the sake of creating an argument. Shame on you. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Seeger Smothers Party- Left=right? From: DougR Date: 24 Mar 10 - 04:21 PM I dunno, Spaw, sugar in cornbread? I guess it might work in Mexican Cornbread, but still, I dunno. DougR |
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Subject: RE: BS: Seeger Smothers Party- Left=right? From: pdq Date: 24 Mar 10 - 04:29 PM That should be 1/4 cup white sugar, I believe. Other additives may include very small pieces of crisp-fried bacon. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Seeger Smothers Party- Left=right? From: katlaughing Date: 24 Mar 10 - 04:44 PM The only way we ever ate, and still do, cornbread in our family is with butter and sugar on it. Brown sugar these days, but there is nothing better than to cup open a hot piece, dab on the butter and sugar then put the piece back together. Yummy! I heard from someone that it was a southern tradition to do that to baking powder biscuits which we also do. If it is, it came down from my dad's granddad from West VA. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Seeger Smothers Party- Left=right? From: Don Firth Date: 24 Mar 10 - 05:26 PM Little Hawk, I thought you were up on the history of World War II, but apparently you missed the important parts, including the things that led up to the fascist takeover of Italy and Germany and the oppression and government sponsored mass murder that followed. There is nothing like "hysterical overreaction" about my objections to what Conrad is saying. It's a sense of history and the knowledge of where the philosophical and political principles that he wants us to "tolerate"—in the name of freedom (!!)—can eventually lead when put into action. And to me (and apparently to many others on this thread), what Conrad is advocating is patently clear. And as to the last paragraph of your post just above, leave off with the armchair psychoanalysis, Little Hawk, your not very good at it. You totally misinterpret what I'm about, and you seem to be trying to denigrate me in the process. And as to your "colorless neutrality," thats been the theme of your long history of sitting in the lotus position on your mountaintop and saying "tsk tsk" when someone takes a strong moral or ethical position on some issue. Smug, superior, and above it all. You say (as you just have) that you feel strongly about a lot of issues, but when do you ever really speak out strongly about them? Are you afraid to get in there and argue your positions? Apparently so, because all I ever see is you sniping at those who have strong viewpoints and who state and defend them. And you will note that I'm not the only one who has remarked on this. #### Conrad, if you are aware, as you say you are, of the brutal excesses that took place under fascism—and are aware of the fact that this was a direct outgrowth of the kind of political ideology that spawn them—then tell my why you think we should be tolerant of—specifically—fascists? Fascism is directly inimical to individual freedom. I don't see how someone who claims to favor freedom can possibly be tolerant of a political ideology that states up front that the State is everything, and that individuals, rather than being free, must be subservient to it. Conrad—and Little Hawk—are you familiar with Martin Niemöller and the famous quote that is attributed to him? If not, I suggest you look it up. Don Firth P. S. Just in case anyone doesn't really understand what fascism is all about: Fascism . . . is a radical and authoritarian nationalist political ideology. Fascists seek to organize a nation on corporatist perspectives and values.Why should we be tolerant an ideology that is directly opposed to democracy, individual freedom, diversity, freedom of conscience, and everything else that we hold as essential to living in a civilized world? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Seeger Smothers Party- Left=right? From: akenaton Date: 24 Mar 10 - 06:22 PM Now that is irony......LH take note |
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Subject: RE: BS: Seeger Smothers Party- Left=right? From: Don Firth Date: 24 Mar 10 - 07:10 PM I know you've called me a "liberal fascist" on occasion, Ake (which is, of course, an oxymoron and a total misuse of both terms), but the irony, as you see it, is. . . ? Don Firth |
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Subject: RE: BS: Seeger Smothers Party- Left=right? From: *#1 PEASANT* Date: 24 Mar 10 - 08:09 PM don you are mixing up political ideologies with people who are simply thinking about them and crafting songs- songs dont kill people. And with one stream of political ideology coming from seeger smothers et al - simply manipulation at the exclusion of others I think maybe but no one has found the evidence yet. When any political group ones you like, ones you dont like use the power of music to dominate the media and bring about political change it hurts folk music in general. Songs are songs- they dont kill anyone unless manipulated to do so. Conrad |
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Subject: RE: BS: Seeger Smothers Party- Left=right? From: olddude Date: 24 Mar 10 - 08:51 PM Well Conrad right now far more popular than any folk music is Gansta Rap that talks about committing acts of violence and beating up women so you do already have what you are looking for ... just pull up any of those lyrics and have a look and listen ... For the 12 people outside of this site that listens to Pete anymore there are millions listening to the Gansta Rap folks ... so there ya go |
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Subject: RE: BS: Seeger Smothers Party- Left=right? From: Don Firth Date: 24 Mar 10 - 08:58 PM Songs are songs- they don't kill anyone unless manipulated to do so. Propaganda songs express a particular viewpoint or ideology. And some ideologies advocate violence. With what some people think of as "leftist" propaganda songs, I don't blanketly accept any of them as expressing my viewpoint, save that I'm for promoting peace and I'm opposed to racial, economic, or any other kind of oppression. But I don't see those things as being "leftist." I see them as the position that any decent human being would take. I've heard Seeger sing labor songs and civil rights songs, but those, the labor songs in particular, are generally historical. And usually he sings only a few per concert. I've never actually heard the Smothers Brothers sing a political song. If they have, I've never heard it. I generally don't go to concerts or other performances where I know the singer is going to concentrate primarily on political or protest songs. And in my own concerts and performances, I rarely sing politically oriented songs; and I'm certainly not going to sing a song that advocates a political position I don't agree with. I don't believe this has cost me—or folk music in general—any fans. I don't think I've ever heard a fascist propaganda song, and I can't imagine what one might be like. There are, of course, things like marches and other militaristic music and a few songs like "The Horst Wessel Song," but nothing I can think of that could be considered "fascist folk music." Conrad, I don't think any genre of songs is "dominating the media" in any political way. So when it comes right down to it, it looks to me as if you're trying to promote a nonexistent category of songs. Can you give me some examples of fascist songs? Don Firth |
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Subject: RE: BS: Seeger Smothers Party- Left=right? From: *#1 PEASANT* Date: 24 Mar 10 - 09:14 PM Just because you or we agree with a position does not mean that it should be the exclusive position projected by "the folk" however that is what seems to have happened. Unless someone comes forward with the encorporation of opposing viewpoints in these programmes or concerts. No matter what political persuasion and they are all persuasions rather than utopias- all political persuasions philosophies have flaws none are perfect not even ours- those who adopt them believe them to be right. Just like you believe that your views and the philosophies you support are correct and right. That does not mean that the world is not filled with other philosophies that may also be viaable. So if we get them all in the same room I dont think anyone will attack anyone else but at least each side gets heard out. If you never meet then you can never share or convince anyone. The philosophies I support all need help in practice and perhaps in basic constructs. To fill the media with one side is media abuse. Seger and all flew the banner of inclusion while excluding the political views of other philosophies and groups. That is unless someone comes forward to demonstrate how they were more open- in which case they were manipulative. Conrad |
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Subject: RE: BS: Seeger Smothers Party- Left=right? From: catspaw49 Date: 24 Mar 10 - 09:23 PM Geeziz Conrad.....Everybody and their grandmothers have tried to explain this to you but I think it best if you simply go find a mirror somewhere, stare intently at your image, and repeat the word "Bumblefuck" at least a thousand times. Perhaps then all will be clear.................. Spaw |
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Subject: RE: BS: Seeger Smothers Party- Left=right? From: WFDU - Ron Olesko Date: 24 Mar 10 - 09:49 PM "When any political group ones you like, ones you dont like use the power of music to dominate the media and bring about political change it hurts folk music in general." If you could back that up with evidence there would be something to discuss, unfortunately you just keep sharing your opinion. You fail to see that Seeger and the Smothers were NOT excluding the views of others. If you, as everyone else seems to have realized, that the Smother's Brothers and Seeger WERE offering an alternate view at a time when the media was highly slanted toward the right. You keep insisting that folk music should share both sides. It does. You only need to open your ears and evolve beyond the cocoon you've wrapped yourself in. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Seeger Smothers Party- Left=right? From: Don Firth Date: 24 Mar 10 - 10:15 PM Again, Conrad, could you name some folk songs, ballads and such, that you feel are being excluded because of the "left-wing" bias of the singers? What songs would you like to hear sung? Don Firth |
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Subject: RE: BS: Seeger Smothers Party- Left=right? From: *#1 PEASANT* Date: 25 Mar 10 - 07:17 AM Ron- once again seeger and smothers projected only one view unless you can demonstrate otherwise. They may have operated their own programs and concerts but they were also ambassadors of the folk movememnt at large as they were the only folk stages and outlets. Therefore they should have been more responsible and projected a wider range of opinion so that the folk movement would not have been branded as it was. Conrad |
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Subject: RE: BS: Seeger Smothers Party- Left=right? From: catspaw49 Date: 25 Mar 10 - 07:48 AM Obviously you couldn't find a mirror. If you really don't understand why Pete or anyone else didn't invite the "opposition" to perform then you truly are a fuckin' mental case. Spaw |
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Subject: RE: BS: Seeger Smothers Party- Left=right? From: *#1 PEASANT* Date: 25 Mar 10 - 09:31 AM They did not invite others of opposing viewpoints because it seems they wanted to use their power of the media to dominate the discussion. It is a bit different when you are the only show in town. If you are truly open and fair and sharing and want peoples to get together as proclaimed by seeger and others then you will invite diversity even if you have to do it yourself. Remember we dont really know. Did seeger and smothers et all turn down material or refuse artists the ability to share the stage. And if that would not work did they find songs to sing themselves. Of course they did not have to do this but it might have helped keep the entire folk scene from being branded which most likely hampered its growth. Conrad |
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Subject: RE: BS: Seeger Smothers Party- Left=right? From: WFDU - Ron Olesko Date: 25 Mar 10 - 10:45 AM "Ron- once again seeger and smothers projected only one view unless you can demonstrate otherwise. They may have operated their own programs and concerts but they were also ambassadors of the folk movememnt at large as they were the only folk stages and outlets. Therefore they should have been more responsible and projected a wider range of opinion so that the folk movement would not have been branded as it was." Conrad, that makes absolutely no sense. You have expectations that have no basis in reality. Art is subjective, it is not all encompassing. I don't care what song you are listening to, you are hearing the viewpoint of the singer and or writer. "Did seeger and smothers et all turn down material or refuse artists the ability to share the stage." Again, that makes no sense at all. It is their stage at that point in time and they are entitled to do as they choose. THEY DO NOT OWN THAT STAGE - IT WAS SIMPLY THEIR TURN TO BE ON IT!!! Capish? Freedom of speech does not require the artist to make such conditions as you are seeking. Your suggestion actually flies in the face of what freedom of speech is all about. The responsibility for obtaining diverse opinions belongs to the audience, not the artist. It has always been so, it will always be so. If that ever changes, we are all in trouble. You cannot regulate art. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Seeger Smothers Party- Left=right? From: EBarnacle Date: 25 Mar 10 - 10:48 AM Conrad, answer the question. What concrete examples have Pete, et al, excluded or prevented from being performed, played over the air, sung, etc? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Seeger Smothers Party- Left=right? From: catspaw49 Date: 25 Mar 10 - 11:18 AM No EB....You don't understand! Conrad wanted them to issue engraved invitations to share the program and perform all the music that shows anothere side. Indeed if there are 4 or 5 other viewpoints, all of them must be given equal time and cosideration because all have a voice in the choir. Now the fact that you do not understand this is because you are sane and rational and living here in the real world whereas Conrad is a fuckin' moron with all the deductive powers of a concussed aardvark and lives in the land of the Terminally Screwed. Spaw |
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Subject: RE: BS: Seeger Smothers Party- Left=right? From: Bettynh Date: 25 Mar 10 - 11:45 AM "They did not invite others of opposing viewpoints because it seems they wanted to use their power of the media to dominate the discussion" What exact power did comedy show hosts and a man who had been banned from national media for 10 years, and whose one song was chopped short, have? The power of history, perhaps, but not a lot at the time. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Seeger Smothers Party- Left=right? From: Don Firth Date: 25 Mar 10 - 01:42 PM You haven't answered my question, Conrad, so I'll ask it again: Can you give me some examples of fascist folk songs? Don Firth |
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Subject: RE: BS: Seeger Smothers Party- Left=right? From: Bettynh Date: 25 Mar 10 - 03:48 PM Don, I worry for your blood pressure. Conrad seems to be a troll, although of the folk persuasion. I'm betting he's a} young and b} not from this country. In any event, he's woefully ignorant of the history of this country during the 60s and that PBS special didn't help. I had to explain to a recent college graduate that the USA didn't win the war in Vietnam. She'd avoided all history in college, and the US history teacher in high school "ran out of time" to teach any history after WW2. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Seeger Smothers Party- Left=right? From: WFDU - Ron Olesko Date: 25 Mar 10 - 04:52 PM "Conrad seems to be a troll, although of the folk persuasion. I'm betting he's a} young and b} not from this country. In any event, he's woefully ignorant of the history of this country during the 60s and that PBS special didn't help" I don't think that is the case at all. I cannot recall meeting Conrad, but if memory serves me correct, I did a phone interview with him on my radio program. We discussed the tradition of "wassail" and he was very eloquent and fun to talk with. While I seriously question some of the statements he has made in this thread, and I do not agree with his politics (as I am perceiving from his notes), I will say that he knows history, even though his interpretation may be different from ours. He certainly is pulling our strings with this thread, but if you read between the lines, this whole discusssion does give us cause to think - whether that makes us uncomfortable or not. Perhaps that is the true purpose of his actions? I would certainly never expect any artist to give anything other than their opinion. I host a radio program, and I will be the first to tell you that I am not aiming to be fair and balanced. I give a stage to the artists I choose, and while I will try to play both sides of an issue - if it makes artistic sense to do so - I am not out to do anything other than promote the artist that make up the folk community. There are several factions to that folk community, and the fact that there is a liberal lean to the point is just another aspect to that community. If I want a debate, I will go to a debate. If I want to attend a Pete Seeger concert, I will attend. At either event, I know what I am getting. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Seeger Smothers Party- Left=right? From: Don Firth Date: 25 Mar 10 - 05:25 PM No worries about my blood pressure, Bettynh. I'm fine. I would, coolly and calmly, fight any attempt at a resurgence of fascism in the world, because being an old geezer, I remember WW II. Being too young at the time, I didn't know the history of what led up to it, but back in the days of antiquity (my youth), history classes were well taught and thorough, which, apparently, is not the case anymore. When British and American troops discovered the death camps, I recall seeing photos of the kind I linked to above in Life Magazine (large format photo journal, weekly, 10¢ an issue). Everybody I know was shocked and horrified at what they saw. We all knew that the Nazis were brutes, but until those pictures appeared, we had little idea of the magnitude that brutality could reach. And the idea that this sort of cold, systematic, industrialize mass murder was done by intelligent and supposedly civilized human beings was more appalling still! I had a friend, the son of a prominent theoretical physicist who was a friend of Albert Einstein, whose family managed to get out of Hungary just hours before the Gestapo came to haul them off to a concentration camp. Reason? They were Jewish. But they had other plans for my friend's father. They intended to force him to help them in their efforts to develop an atomic bomb. But fortunately for the future of the world, my friend's father managed to escape along with his family. And there is no doubt that if the Germans had succeeded in the development of the A-bomb (and they were chillingly close when the war ended), they would have used it. And undoubtedly one of the first targets (possibly combined with their V-2 rockets, or more likely, the A-9 A-10 multistage intercontinental ballistic missile they were developing) would have been London. You can imagine what course the war would have taken then, if Germany actually had such a weapon, along with an ICBM delivery system. If the war had lasted a few months longer. . . . And now we seem to have people who want to see it happen all over again. Or want us to tolerate those who want to see it happen all over again. In practical terms, I, personally, don't need to worry about it much. As I said, I'm an old geezer and one by one a lot of my contemporaries (such as actor Robert Culp, with whom I had a nodding acquaintance as we were both students at the University of Washington, and who was a year older than I am) are toppling off the twig, so although my health is good (and my blood pressure reads about 120 over 70), I am aware that the lead horse of Time's Wingèd Chariot is snapping at my rear end. So if a Fourth Reich comes into existence, growing, say, out of the BNP or the American Nazi Party or the Aryan Nations (or all three!), I probably won't be around. But I have a son. And nieces and nephews. And friends with children. . . . Don Firth |
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Subject: RE: BS: Seeger Smothers Party- Left=right? From: WFDU - Ron Olesko Date: 25 Mar 10 - 05:42 PM Well said Don. Everyone is allowed free speech, but we cannot allow ourselves to tolerate hate. It scares the hell out of me that there are young people joining these hate groups, and we need to understand why they are doing it and remind ourselves of the dangers of not fighting fascism. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Seeger Smothers Party- Left=right? From: *#1 PEASANT* Date: 25 Mar 10 - 09:13 PM Ok folks- public information- I have a resume page out there but here fore you. Age 56 Married one child republican (US which does not mean I support anyone) Student of history Folk musician- professional storyteller- professional Focus- revival of FOLK MUSIC that is revival via lifeway with professional folk music appreciated but in second place. Simply because FOLK MUSIC is the best way to safeguard the legacy. Art Car Artist- Nationally Recognized Horn Hatter- Developed the horn hat and the horn coat and the horn jacket not as costumes but as instruments. Visionary Artist Author Publisher Folk song transcriber- see my various collections Ron- the next wassail book is nearing I think, completion and as at about 900 Pages. I am Us Citizen but lived in the UK London 60s went to College there Durham, Van Mildert,70s and in munich 70s.... Specialist in music of the North East, Uk. Orange, Unionist Songs, St. Brigid of Kildare, the Gunpowder plot celeberations, Wassail.... Strong believer in folks having an academic interest celebrating what tey write about or dont do it at all. So a bit of background and by the way.... Not a Racist Not a fascist No political side in Irish politics just advocate for the under represneted. Pro fare price beer Anti- commercialism Conrad |
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Subject: RE: BS: Seeger Smothers Party- Left=right? From: EBarnacle Date: 25 Mar 10 - 09:55 PM OK, Conrad, let's put the shoe on the other foot. Since you are not willing to answer concretely on the left side of the ledger, who on the right side of the ledger has allowed leftist opinions at their events? Don, was that Leo Szilard by chance? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Seeger Smothers Party- Left=right? From: emjay Date: 25 Mar 10 - 10:30 PM I'm sure I should read every post on this thread before I get all worked up and write something, but I'll read 'em all later. this is an interesting one. And the recipe looks good. i printed it. Some thoughts, the victors write the history books, the losers write the songs I've always thought people who like and sing folk music are more liberal because of the social history in the songs And anyway, folk musicians are just generally smarter than average Martie |
