BS: Republican response to Health Reform

Subject: RE: BS: Republican response to Health Reform
From: Sawzaw
Date: 11 Oct 10 - 10:01 PM

Looks to me like the loudmouth bullies rammed a new regulation that has nothing to do with health care down the throat of the 70% of the American people that disagreed with parts of it.

Good thing we have Kucinich's guarantee that it will go away.

Good thing we have Bobert to call everybody that disagrees a loudmouth bully. A little louder Bobert, we can't all hear you.

You say your premiums have gone down?

Subject: RE: BS: Republican response to Health Reform
From: Bobert
Date: 11 Oct 10 - 09:23 PM

Lots are, Dougie... Seems the Dems have been afraid (as per usual) of standing up to the loudmouth bullies... But many are now touting health care reform as an accomplishment in spite of the hundred of millions of negative ads run by the health insurance companies over the last couple years.. Kinda hard to go up against that much negative advertising...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Republican response to Health Reform
From: DougR
Date: 11 Oct 10 - 07:48 PM

Gee, I wonder why Democrat candidates are NOT including their support for Obama Care in their efforts to get re-elected on November 2? Senator Finegold of Wisconsin appears to be the only one who is claiming credit for voting for it. It's a puzzelment, isn't it?

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Republican response to Health Reform
From: Greg F.
Date: 11 Oct 10 - 09:27 AM

Relax, Sawz-

From the same source you quoted:

"This obviously was something that needed to be better thought out," said Democrat Dennis Kucinich, in a telephone interview. "It has to be fixed, and it will be fixed, because it's not tolerable."

Subject: RE: BS: Republican response to Health Reform
From: Sawzaw
Date: 11 Oct 10 - 01:21 AM

Glad you asked Bobert. Politifact.com

Before you try to discredit the information by attacking the site,

PolitiFact Ohio is a partnership of The Cleveland Plain Dealer and PolitiFact.com, a Pulitzer Prize-winning Web site of the St. Petersburg Times, to help you find the truth in politics.

The St. Petersburg Times is a United States newspaper. It is one of two major publications serving the Tampa Bay Area, the other being The Tampa Tribune, which the Times tops in both circulation and readership. Based in St. Petersburg, Florida, the Times has won eight Pulitzers since 1964, and in 2009, won two in a single year for the first time in the paper's history. It is published by the Times Publishing Company, which is owned by The Poynter Institute for Media Studies, a nonprofit journalism school directly adjacent to the University of South Florida campus in St. Petersburg.

Subject: RE: BS: Republican response to Health Reform
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 10 Oct 10 - 09:42 PM

And if they had simply made Medicare available for everybody, think of how much simpler it all could be.

Subject: RE: BS: Republican response to Health Reform
From: GUEST,Bobert, on the road...
Date: 10 Oct 10 - 09:05 PM

Seein' as yer into that source stuff, Sawz... How about posting the lawn mower reg in it's entirety so that it can be taken in context...

As fir purchasing??? If you have been in business for any period of time you realize that you do have to keep records of expenses... Doesn't matter how little the expense or how many vendors are involved... But no forms are required that need to be filed with any government agency... That is pure bullshit!!! I mean, like another right wing lie... Yes, when a company sets up an account with a vendor the vendor is going to require that you are authorized to purchase wholesale in order to not have a duplication of collecting sales tax... Hey, that is to the retailers advantage... Sales tax is intended to be paid by the end user... Not middle men... Big deal... The forms are filled out with tax-exempt numbers... Been like that going back decades... Who cares??? To read that forms need to be filed is bullshit??? They need to be filed with the vendors... Not the government... The only time the government gets involved is in the case on an audit when someone is trying evade paying taxes as an end user...

But it sho nuff sounds scarey... Just ain't exactly true if one is trying to imply that these forms need to be filed with the mean ol' government...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Republican response to Health Reform
From: Sawzaw
Date: 10 Oct 10 - 03:48 PM

according to the health care reform bill:

"If a landscaper wants to buy a new lawnmower, or a restaurant needs a new ice-maker, they have to report that to the feds. If you're a mom-and-pop grocery store, and you buy $1,000 worth of merchandise from each of 15 different vendors, that's 15 different forms you have to file."

Subject: RE: BS: Republican response to Health Reform
From: Bobert
Date: 13 May 10 - 09:30 AM

Well, here we go again with that "r" word... Seems that the conservatives here and elsewhere think that "regulation" is the enemy...

Horrors!!! If we regulate anything then the next thing ya' know s that we'll end up as a socialist country!!! That is their mindset...

The problem is that we tyried 3 decades of deregulation and letting marrkets police themselves and in the words of Dr. Phil, "How's it workin' for ya???"

What is has produced is a massive redistribution of wealth from the working classd to the wealthy and corpoartions running rougshod over not only the working class but over the environment as well... Yes, it has been a very good 30 year run for the wealthy but it hasn't served our country very well when it is compared to other nations in qulaity of life issues, like life expectancy, employement, standard of living, infant mortality, edfucation, etcv. etc...

Face it, the US is a declining nation and the letting industry, and monopolies write their own rules is at the heart of what ails it...

Yes, the health care industry needs some over due regs... Like pricing of procedures... They are way off the scale... I just had a basil cell removed from my face... The outpatient procedure lasted less than 5 minutes... The bill was $2300!!! My wife had a brace made for her thumb base arthritis... Total time to make it was less than a half an hour... The bill was $1700!!! These are crazy charges... I mean, I understand the idea of profits but this is theft!!! Time to rethink deregulatioon that allows the hospitals to decide just how much ***they*** think they are entitled to for performing minor procedures... Or even major ones...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Republican response to Health Reform
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 13 May 10 - 08:37 AM

Maybe there's a distinction between a for profit business which has the priority of maximising profit, and one where the idea is just to avoid making a loss.

The former is essentially a form of theft.

Subject: RE: BS: Republican response to Health Reform
From: Sawzaw
Date: 12 May 10 - 11:05 PM

Health Overhaul Law Potentially Costs $115B More

...Congressional estimators also said they simply had not had enough time to run the numbers. Costs could go higher, because the legislation authorizes several programs without setting specific funding levels.

The health care law provides coverage to some more than 30 million now uninsured, offering tax credits to help purchase health insurance through new competitive markets that open for business in 2014. When Congress passed the bill in March, the CBO estimated the coverage expansion would cost $938 billion over 10 years, while reducing the federal deficit by $143 billion....

Subject: RE: BS: Republican response to Health Reform
From: Sawzaw
Date: 23 Apr 10 - 09:46 AM

HHS Report says health care bill will cover more, cost more

AP 4/23/10

WASHINGTON -President Barack Obama's health care overhaul law is getting a mixed verdict in the first comprehensive look by neutral experts: More Americans will be covered, but costs are also going up.

Economic experts at the Health and Human Services Department concluded in a report issued Thursday that the health care remake will achieve Obama's aim of expanding health insurance, adding 34 million to the coverage rolls.

But the analysis also found that the law falls short of the president's twin goal of controlling runaway costs, raising projected spending by about 1 percent over 10 years. That increase could get bigger, since Medicare cuts in the law may be unrealistic and unsustainable, the report warned.

It's a worrisome assessment for Democrats.

In particular, concerns about Medicare could become a major political liability in the midterm elections. The report projected that Medicare cuts could drive about 15 percent of hospitals and other institutional providers into the red, "possibly jeopardizing access" to care for seniors.

The report from Medicare's Office of the Actuary carried a disclaimer saying it does not represent the official position of the Obama administration. White House officials have repeatedly complained that such analyses have been too pessimistic and lowball the law's potential to achieve savings.

The report acknowledged that some of the cost-control measures in the bill, Medicare cuts, a tax on high-cost insurance and a commission to seek ongoing Medicare savings, could help reduce the rate of cost increases beyond 2020. But it held out little hope for progress in the first decade.

"During 2010-2019, however, these effects would be outweighed by the increased costs associated with the expansions of health insurance coverage," wrote Richard S. Foster, Medicare's chief actuary. "Also, the longer-term viability of the Medicare ... reductions is doubtful." Foster's office is responsible for long-range costs estimates.............

Subject: RE: BS: Republican response to Health Reform
From: mousethief
Date: 23 Apr 10 - 01:56 AM

Operating a for-profit business and ethically delivering health care or health care financing (insurance) are mutually exclusive. Discuss.

Subject: RE: BS: Republican response to Health Reform
From: Maryrrf
Date: 22 Apr 10 - 10:08 PM

Here's an example of why health care reform was needed, and what ended up being passed was far too watered down. This kind of thing is unconscionable and wrong, but it has been going on for a long time. People who pay their premiums, get diagnosed with an illness, and suddenly the policy is cancelled.

Subject: RE: BS: Republican response to Health Reform
From: Sawzaw
Date: 21 Apr 10 - 10:42 PM

Why does it cost $940 Billion to save money?

What is in the health care bill that lowers the cost of medical care, health insurance or medecine?

To make it more palatable they built in a 21% medicare pay cut for doctors. They hooted about how they won the fight against the Republicans and do not mention the Democrats they battled with.

Then they restore the 21% cut in another bill that has nothing to do with healths care and hoot about how they beat the evil Republicans again.

The bill is the product of health care, insurance and medical industry and drug company lobbyists, after we were told lobbyists were not going to have any influence any more.

No back room dealing. Every thing out in the open, on Cspan even.

---

Familiar Players in Health Bill Lobbying Firms Are Enlisting Ex-Lawmakers, Aides

Washington Post

The nation's largest insurers, hospitals and medical groups have hired more than 350 former government staff members and retired members of Congress in hopes of influencing their old bosses and colleagues, according to an analysis of lobbying disclosures and other records.

The tactic is so widespread that three of every four major health-care firms have at least one former insider on their lobbying payrolls, according to The Washington Post's analysis.
...The hirings are part of a record-breaking influence campaign by the health-care industry, which is spending more than $1.4 million a day on lobbying in the current fight, according to disclosure records. And even in a city where lobbying is a part of life, the scale of the effort has drawn attention. For example, the Pharmaceutical Research and Manufacturers of America (PhRMA) doubled its spending to nearly $7 million in the first quarter of 2009, followed by Pfizer, with more than $6 million.

The push has reunited many who worked together in government on health-care reform, but are now employed as advocates for pharmaceutical and insurance companies....

...A June 10 meeting between aides to Baucus, chairman of the Senate Finance Committee, and health-care lobbyists included two former Baucus chiefs of staff: David Castagnetti, whose clients include PhRMA and America's Health Insurance Plans, and Jeffrey A. Forbes, who represents PhRMA, Amgen, Genentech, Merck and others. Castagnetti did not return a telephone call; Forbes declined to comment.

Also inside the closed committee hearing room that day was Richard Tarplin, a veteran of both the Department of Health and Human Services and the Senate, where he worked for Christopher J. Dodd (D-Conn.), one of the leaders in fashioning reform legislation this year. Tarplin now represents the American Medical Association as head of his own lobbying firm, Tarplin Strategies....

Subject: RE: BS: Republican response to Health Reform
From: Bobert
Date: 21 Apr 10 - 07:34 PM

Only time will tell about any net savings from the health "insurance" reform... One thing that never quite got talked about is that the uninsured do go to hospit6als when they are very sick or are badly injured and the hospital ends up eating the cost of these folks care which gets passed on to everyone else in the form of cost... Now if we insure 35,000,000 people then the hospitals won't have to absorb those losses and should be able to, at the very least, keep cost increases closer to inflation rates...

But that is in theory...

But the second aspect is that these same 35,000,000 people will get care before stuff gets so out of hand that the care becomes very expensive... This, in theory, should help control overall cost of health care...

We'll just have to see...

One thing is for sure and that is that the 17% of GNP that we are spoending on health care alone will cripple our economy...

I was fir a single payer system... I think it has the greatest chance of holding down future costs but that politically wasn't possible...

I think we have moved forward but I aslo think that we have not had the courage to really put a good fix in and that we will have to revisit this problem again very soon... Like within the next 7 to 10 years... Maybe then the politic will be better and we will put together a system that works...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Republican response to Health Reform
From: Greg F.
Date: 21 Apr 10 - 07:14 PM

Kevin, don't bother trying to change their minds with facts.....

Subject: RE: BS: Republican response to Health Reform
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 21 Apr 10 - 02:24 PM

Here's a post I put on another thread that maybe fits better here:

"I think the NHS is a wonderful, wonderful thing. What it did for my
family and for my son, I will never forget. I went from hospital to
hospital, A&Es in the middle of the night, sleeping in different wards
in different places. The dedication, and the vocation and the love
you get from people who work in the NHS just, I think, makes me
incredibly proud of this country, so thank you for all that you've
done.

"I think it is special, the NHS, and we made a special
exception of the NHS and said yes, there are going to have to be
difficult financial decisions elsewhere, but we think that the NHS
budget should grow in real terms, i.e., more than inflation, every
year under a Conservative government. My vision is that we
improve it, we expand it, we develop it, we make sure that it's got
more choice and more control for the patient."

Quote comes from the leader of the British Conservative Party, speaking in the course of the first TV debate with his rivals to be elected to become Prime Minister. That's the kind of thing that makes it so hard for non-Americans to begin to understand where the fanatical hatred for advocates of health reform in the USA comes from.

Subject: RE: BS: Republican response to Health Reform
From: Sawzaw
Date: 21 Apr 10 - 12:38 PM

House passes health care bill

Mar 21, 2010 CNN.com... The House passed the bill in a 219-212 vote on Sunday. ... Republicans [and 34 Democrats] failed to stop the Democratic health care initiative despite utilizing almost every weapon in their legislative arsenal ... The plan, according to CBO projections, will cut budget deficits by over $1 trillion in its second decade ...


Huffington Post April 2, 2010

.....Democrats trumpeted the bill as reducing the deficit. They relied on last minute scoring from the Congressional Budget Office (CBO) reporting that the bill will reduce the federal deficit by $138 billion over 10 years. As a result, proponents declared the bill as good for the deficit and the economy.

History will prove whether this claim is true. But anyone who has even peeled back one layer of this onion knows the CBO was boxed in to giving a distorted picture. This law will be proven quickly to expand our bloated deficit -- and sadly, the media was asleep at the switch and did not report on it.

The big distortion occurred by the CBO assumption that the 21 percent cut in doctors' Medicare reimbursements would stay in place...... This allowed them to claim $450 billion in Medicare savings. Yet, the same politicians who voted for the bill have also promised doctors a "fix" and that they will restore the drastic cuts in Medicare reimbursement.

Democrats Successful in Stopping [their own] Big Cut in Medicare Pay for Physicians

April 16, 2010 Senior citizens can take their annual sigh of relief that a Medicare pay cut for physicians has once again been avoided. The giant pay cut over 21 percent had the potential of causing many doctors to no longer care for Medicare patients. The bill stopping this year's pay cut was signed by President Barack Obama last night after Democrats won a hard fought battle with Republicans [and 34 democrats]....

Subject: RE: BS: Republican response to Health Reform
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 04 Apr 10 - 11:59 AM

I have heard Fox News employee Juan William speak a hundred times on FOX and NPR. If he is not a conservative, he is to the right of conservative. He mostly talks about what liberals are doing wrong and by implication, how to defeat them.

Subject: RE: BS: Republican response to Health Reform
From: Amos
Date: 04 Apr 10 - 10:53 AM

"...ÒI think the vast majority of Americans know that weÕre trying hard, that I want whatÕs best for the country.Ó

Limbaugh shot back on Friday, ÒI and most Americans do not believe President Obama is trying to do whatÕs best for the country.Ó

And there it was. ObamaÕs language focused on what people Òknow,Ó or should know. He seems to find comfort in the empirical nature of knowledge. ItÕs logical. LimbaughÕs language focused on what he thinks people Òbelieve.Ó Beliefs are a more complicated blend of facts, or lies, and faith. And, they can exist beyond the realm of the rational.

This focus on faith has allowed people like Limbaugh to mislead and manipulate large swaths of the right.

According to another Quinnipiac poll released last week, Republicans were far more likely than Democrats to say that they follow public affairs most of the time. But how? They listen to people like Limbaugh, and theyÕre more likely than others to watch Fox News.

But invectives are not information. For example, a poll released on Wednesday by the Pew Research Center found that most Republicans say that they still donÕt understand how the new health care reform will affect them and their family.

They donÕt know what it means, but they believe itÕs bad. Rush & Co. said so. In the vacuum of confusion and misinformation, they strum their fears and feed their anxiety. And, by worrying, their faith is made perfect."

(NYT Columnist Charles Blow)

---

Charles Blow raises an interesting point. In the middle of this virulent clash of beliefs, viewpoints based on media distorted mythology, and politics based on perverse faith, how do you abstract any kind of real sense of the calculus between politics and reality? How do you estimate the consequences of positions or the merits of policies in a storm of denial and misleading assertions? Especially in those rarer cases where the misleading is cloaked in plausible rhetoric?

Like most people I respect viewpoints from those I trust, and I trust people whose understandings I share; but this is tricky because it can lead you into a blind end of hidden tacit suppositions and overlooked but important data.

For me the solution has been to keep my own counsel foremost and not make agreements too lightly. Not always an easy resolution to keep, though.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Republican response to Health Reform
From: DougR
Date: 03 Apr 10 - 02:49 PM

Well, Jack the Sailor, you are partly right.

If ObamaCare is a smashing success the Democrats get full credit for passing it.

If ObamaCare fails, the Democrats get full credit for passing it.

If the Republicans find a way to block it, the Republicans get credit for doing so.

Juan Williams (who cannot be mistaken for a conservative) has an excellent OP ED in today's edition of the Wall Street Journal about the Tea Party, should anyone care to look it up.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Republican response to Health Reform
From: Sawzaw
Date: 03 Apr 10 - 11:07 AM

I am still waiting for Bobert to tell us who is "out there screaming for re****ks to kill Oabama".

Now there is person with some serious anger management issues.

It you disagree with Bobert you must be crushed. His uncontrollable elitist ego demands it.

Subject: RE: BS: Republican response to Health Reform
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 02 Apr 10 - 01:18 PM

DougR that seems very fair and non-partisan of you.

If I may summarize your position to ensure that I have it straight.

If the Health Reform Law succeeds the Democratic Party should get full credit.
If it fails, then the Democratic Party should get full blame.
It the Republican Party somehow manages to sabotage it, then the Democrats should not be blamed for the Law's failure.

I like that attitude of yours DougR. It reflects a value of personal responsibility. I think that you should be speaking at the Tea Party rallies rather than Sarah Palin.

Subject: RE: BS: Republican response to Health Reform
From: CarolC
Date: 02 Apr 10 - 09:59 AM

Here's a couple more...


http://mudcat.org/thread.cfm?threadid=123258&messages=1334&page=5&desc=yes#2785164

Subject: RE: BS: US Health Care Reform
From: CarolC - PM
Date: 10 Dec 09 - 03:42 AM

And by the way, they are totally against the House bill, because that one includes a robust public option. The reason the Senate dropped the public option is because Senators like Lieberman and Lincoln are completely in the pockets of the insurance industry.


http://mudcat.org/thread.cfm?threadid=123258&messages=1334&page=3&desc=yes#2792095

Subject: RE: BS: US Health Care Reform
From: CarolC - PM
Date: 19 Dec 09 - 01:13 PM

I don't disagree that the Democratic leadership has failed in this case.

Subject: RE: BS: Republican response to Health Reform
From: CarolC
Date: 02 Apr 10 - 07:46 AM

http://mudcat.org/thread.cfm?threadid=128314&messages=144&page=1&desc=yes#2877311

By the way, Sawzaw, I am not a Democrat myself. So I don't have any personal sense of identification with either party. So it's quite easy for me to criticize both parties when I don't like what they do.

I'm not the one who is talking about "the Democrats" as if they were a Borg collective, Sawzaw. That's what you're doing. Heroes is your word. I think the Democrats did a shitty job of passing a health care reform bill. But it's the best one we've got, so they get credit for at least doing that much. Republicans have done nothing whatever except try to preserve the status quo. If this new law makes it possible for me and JtS to get health insurance (and I expect that it will), it could save our lives. So those who voted for it (the vast majority of Democrats) will get credit from me for saving our lives.

In most of the polls taken during the time health care reform was being worked on, most of the people were in favor of it most of the time. You're cherry picking and only considering the polls that support your contention that most people don't want health care reform. But if you're going to quote percentages (which you really can't do and be telling the truth), you need to look at all of the polls and use an aggregate of the numbers. Most of the people favored what the Democrats were doing most of time. And a large percentage of the people in the polls that showed a majority of people against, were against because the bill in question didn't offer a public option. When asked about a public option, the majority of those polled consistently said they were in favor, and when asked if they would support the proposed bill if it offered a public option, the majority of people consistently said they would support the bill. So you're just flat out wrong that the majority of people don't support health care reform.

And now, after the bill has become law, a plurality of people have said they are glad it passed. So your 50.8% number (if it is from the poll I am thinking of), don't oppose health care reform, they just want the law to go farther than it does, and they either want single payer not for profit, or they want a public option. When the people who feel that way are removed from that number a minority of people oppose the bill.

There are more people who are glad the law passed than there are people who are not glad the law passed. That's a fact. If the law included a public option, there would be a clear majority of people who would say they supported the new law. When people see in what ways their lives are positively impacted by the new law, the people who made it happen will be rewarded at the polls in future elections. Democrats like my representative, who worked against it, might not fare so well, however, and I'm going to do my part to make sure that happens.

Subject: RE: BS: Republican response to Health Reform
From: Sawzaw
Date: 02 Apr 10 - 01:38 AM

CC show me your criticism of the Democrats that voted no.

"the Republicans find a way to sabotage it" But "the Democrats" including the 34 that voted no, even the one that wants it appealed are heros for getting the bill that 40.7% of Americans favor ad 50.8% oppose.

Subject: RE: BS: Republican response to Health Reform
From: DougR
Date: 01 Apr 10 - 07:52 PM

If the Republicans find a way to sabotage it, then it wouldn't have failed.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Republican response to Health Reform
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 01 Apr 10 - 06:45 PM

If the Supreme court says it is than it is.

Dred Scott...

Subject: RE: BS: Republican response to Health Reform
From: CarolC
Date: 01 Apr 10 - 01:57 PM

If it fails, they only get the credit if it fails on its own merits, and not because any Republicans found a way to sabotage it.

Subject: RE: BS: Republican response to Health Reform
From: DougR
Date: 01 Apr 10 - 01:50 PM

Personally, I am very willing to give the Democrats full credit for the health care bill. If it fails, they get the credit too, right?

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Republican response to Health Reform
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 01 Apr 10 - 01:44 PM

"the fact that much of the bill is unconstitutional"

We will see if it is unconstitutional. If the Supreme court says it is than it is.

Otherwise that is just whining and sour grapes.

Sawzaw
I consider McIntyre a Republican (Democrat in name only.). I have told him so via email.

If you would like to consider everything I have said about "The Republicans" to be aimed at "The Republicans and Fake Democrats" I really don't have a problem.

Subject: RE: BS: Republican response to Health Reform
From: CarolC
Date: 01 Apr 10 - 11:27 AM

That sounds like bribery to some.

Really? You think there's something illegal or unethical about individuals voting for lawmakers who will look out for their best interests? That sounds like democracy to me.


It does not address the fact that much of the bill is unconstitutional, helps some people at the expense of others, and is going to force jobs overseas in time of 10%+ unemployment.

Perhaps that's because it isn't any of those things.

Subject: RE: BS: Republican response to Health Reform
From: pdq
Date: 01 Apr 10 - 11:20 AM

"...the more people learn about the new law and the benefits it offers for them personally, the more they like it. ~ CC

That sounds like bribery to some. It does not address the fact that much of the bill is unconstitutional, helps some people at the expense of others, and is going to force jobs overseas in time of 10%+ unemployment.

Subject: RE: BS: Republican response to Health Reform
From: CarolC
Date: 01 Apr 10 - 10:09 AM

CC: Was that before or after I brought it up?

I don't understand the question.


CC Mar 25 "the Democrats" could look pretty good in the fall.

That's pretty pathetic if you think you can use it to support your contention that I have been criticizing Republicans. This is the full context of what I said...

the trend has been that the more people learn about the new law and the benefits it offers for them personally, the more they like it. If the trend continues as it has been going, the Democrats could look pretty good in the fall.

Since only Democratic votes and efforts got us this new law, Democrats are the only ones who will get credit for it if people like it. That's just a fact. I know some Republicans are now trying to take credit for the new law, but that just goes to show that they know this law is going to help Democrats in the fall.

Subject: RE: BS: Republican response to Health Reform
From: Sawzaw
Date: 01 Apr 10 - 09:39 AM

CC:

You must track down and read everything I have ever written in every thread before you accuse me of anything.

Subject: RE: BS: Republican response to Health Reform
From: Sawzaw
Date: 01 Apr 10 - 09:35 AM

CC: Was that before or after I brought it up?

CC Mar 25 "the Democrats" could look pretty good in the fall.

Subject: RE: BS: Republican response to Health Reform
From: CarolC
Date: 01 Apr 10 - 08:50 AM

McIntyre is my representative. As I have said in other threads, he is useless. And he has been a resident of the C Street house (and may still be, although I don't know), and he is a member of The Family. I will be campaigning against him the next time he is in a primary.

Subject: RE: BS: Republican response to Health Reform
From: CarolC
Date: 01 Apr 10 - 08:46 AM

Some someone that comes across this thread is not allowed to form an opinion based on what is posted in this thread?

They are supposed to hunt down everything you have said before making a comment?

Yes, absolutely. You're not in a position to comment on whether or not I am a hypocrite about Democrats and Republicans if you're not familiar with what I have said about them. To try to do so with incomplete information is dishonest, because you're just making stuff up.


Your argument is specious. In this thread you have consistently derided "the Republicans" as being against health care reform and given a pass to "the Democrats" even though 34 of them opposed it like "the Republicans" did.

You're lying, Sawzaw. You haven't even bothered to read what I've posted in this thread.

Subject: RE: BS: Republican response to Health Reform
From: Greg F.
Date: 01 Apr 10 - 08:13 AM

Ah. North Carolina. Home of the race-baiting, ignorant, pig-headed Jesse Helms.

McIntyre is a worthy successor.

Subject: RE: BS: Republican response to Health Reform
From: Sawzaw
Date: 01 Apr 10 - 12:22 AM

Democrat Joins Calls for Health Care Repeal

At least one of the 34 House Democrats who voted against President Obama's comprehensive health care overhaul is now calling for its repeal, joining a chorus of Republicans intent on making the new set of laws an election issue.

Rep. Mike McIntyre (D-N.C.) said he would be in favor of repealing the entire bill, WECT reports.

"If we had the opportunity to vote on it, I would," McIntyre reportedly said. "But I don't think the votes are there right now. So now (the) question is, it'll have to be addressed by the judicial branch."

McIntyre said he supports the numerous, largely Republican state attorneys general suing the federal government on the grounds that the bill is unconstitutional, according to WECT.

The congressman's comments fly in the face of the Democrats' current efforts, led by Mr. Obama, to convince the American public of the benefits they will see from the new legislation. It highlights the adamant opposition to the reform package that exists in moderate and conservative parts of the country.

In a CBS News poll conducted last week, nearly two in three Americans said they wanted Republicans in Congress to continue to challenge parts of the health care reform bill.....

Subject: RE: BS: Republican response to Health Reform
From: Sawzaw
Date: 01 Apr 10 - 12:19 AM

CC:

Some someone that comes across this thread is not allowed to form an opinion based on what is posted in this thread?

They are supposed to hunt down everything you have said before making a comment?

Your argument is specious. In this thread you have consistently derided "the Republicans" as being against health care reform and given a pass to "the Democrats" even though 34 of them opposed it like "the Republicans" did.

Subject: RE: BS: Republican response to Health Reform
From: Amos
Date: 31 Mar 10 - 11:21 PM

More of the same class of distorted stories:

"CORPORATE WRITEDOWNS: For months, Republicans and their allies like the U.S. Chamber of Commerce have been claiming thatÊhealth care reform would create huge new taxes that would hurt businesses. Since the passage of the Affordable Care Act,ÊAT&T, Caterpillar, John Deere and others have come out with a series of -- seemingly coordinated -- press releases announcing that the new bill will cost them billions of dollars. An association representing 300 large corporations is also urging Congress to change the part of the Act that is responsible for the charge. Republicans and the right-wing media latched onto the news of the writedowns as proof that the bill will lead to the "wholesale destruction of wealth and capital," as a Wall Street Journal editorial put it. This is "the exact opposite of what the president promised if we passed health care,"ÊFox News host Sean Hannity said of the writedowns. But in reality, these writedowns are due to a big cut in corporate welfare. The Medicare Part D legislation -- passed under President Bush -- gives subsidies of about $1,300 per retiree per year to businesses that provide prescription drugs to their retirees. On top of that, it allows companies to deduct the value of the credit from their taxes. The new health care law, however,Êpays for itself, in part, by eliminating waste in the system and puts an end to this "double dipping." Companies will still receive the tax-free subsidy, but they'll no longer be able to take the tax deduction as well. As the Wall Street Journal notes, these charges are "noncash," and the cost of losing this exemption is relatively small. And the relevant change doesn't kick in until 2013. Moreover, is disingenuous for companies to suddenly complain about the charges, considering the change was a part of the draft bill that passed the Senate Finance Committee last year and several business groupsÊcomplained about it in September. Finance Committee aides "were in close talks with employer groups" and it ultimately won approval from many, with the chairman of Business Roundtable saying "it's very closely aligned to [our] principles."

A NEW TAX ON STUDENT LOANS: While its inclusion with the health care bill has often been overlooked, legislation to streamline the student loan system has not escaped its share of right-wing fear mongering. Sen. Chuck Grassley (R-IA) told Radio Iowa that the plan "end[s] up taxing college students" because they'll be forced to pay more borrowing from the government directly than if they couldÊshop around for a loan from private lenders. Sen. Lindsey Graham (R-SC) agreed, claiming that students will spend "$1,700 to $1,800 more during the life of their loan because of this surcharge." But both Grassley and Graham are ignoring the fact that it SAFRA does not change interest rates, meaning that students will pay the same amount as they did before. As PolitiFact notes, the interest rates are set by law and were not changed by SAFRA -- "there is no 'surcharge' in the bill." Grassley and industry lobbyists have also claimed that people employed by private loan companies will lose their jobs "at a time when our country can least afford to lose them." But as Campus Progress notes, "There will be no shortage of work for loan companies under the new reforms," as federal loans will still be serviced by private companies. "In fact, student loan giant Sallie Mae has announced it is in the process of bringing back 3,400 jobs from overseas. These jobs are returning to the U.S., at least in part, so that the company can be eligible for Department of Education contracts to service Direct Loans," Campus Progress adds.

Subject: RE: BS: Republican response to Health Reform
From: Amos
Date: 31 Mar 10 - 10:14 PM

ANother sterling example of the Republican flase-reality factory hard at work, from "The Progressive"

"IRS AGENTS 'BREATHING DOWN' OUR NECKS:ÊFox News and Republican lawmakers have been pushing a talking point claiming that the Internal Revenue Service (IRS) willÊneed to hire more than 16,500 new agents to enforce theÊuniversal insurance mandates in the Affordable Care Act, and that the agency will impose harsh punishments on those who don't purchase insurance it deems worthy. At least a dozen Republican lawmakers pushed the meme, with Rep. Dave Camp (R-MI) calling it a "dangerous expansion of the IRS's power and reach into the lives of virtually every American." Rep. Michele Bachmann (R-MN) warned Fox News host Sean Hannity that "theÊIRSÊwill be tasked with breathing down the neck of 300 million Americans every month to determine whether we have purchased governmentally acceptable levels of health insurance." Rep. Mark Kirk (R-IL) and others attributed the 16,500 figure to "the nonpartisan Congressional Budget Office," but as PolitiFact noted, the figure does not come from the CBO. It comes from a report prepared byÊthe Republican staff of the House Ways and Means Committee, which used rough estimates from the CBO in order to fabricate the 16,500 figure. During a recent congressional hearing, IRS Commissioner Doug Shulman made it clear that these claims are nothing but "misconceptions." When asked whether the IRS would "verify if [Americans] have obtained acceptable health insurance,"ÊShulman flatly said "no," adding that there "are not going to be any discussions about health coverage with an IRS employee." As for claims of draconian enforcement, including jail time, for those who do not buy insurance, as House Speaker Nancy Pelosi (D-CA) noted on her web site, "The bill specifically prohibits the IRS from confiscating taxpayer assets, from using liens or levies, or imposing criminal penalties of any kind -- including jail time -- because of a lack of health care coverage."


A
"

Subject: RE: BS: Republican response to Health Reform
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 31 Mar 10 - 07:04 PM

Not every American who votes Republican is the kind of arsehole who represents him/her in Washington.

Those who have the intelligence will be sitting at home, one year into Obama's presidency, and seeing what their representatives are deliberately and cynically doing to prevent him from clearing up the Augean Stable he inherited from George W (I've only one brain cell, and it's at the laundry) Bush, and they will be wondering what exactly is being achieved in their name.

When they realise that they have elected men who will destroy the USA rather than accept a black president, then you might see some changes.

The bottom line is that closing down America inc. to beat Obama, will be at best a Pyrrhic victory.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Republican response to Health Reform
From: CarolC
Date: 31 Mar 10 - 02:14 PM

Riginslinger, I don't think they necessarily are. But time will tell. Personally, I think their methods are backfiring on them (instant karma).

Subject: RE: BS: Republican response to Health Reform
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 31 Mar 10 - 01:33 PM

What this crop of Republican did was particularly bad because a lot of their ideas are in the bill. They didn't refuse the bill to save money. The Bill is paid for. They could have even strengthened the fiscal responsibility had they cooperated.

They let those people die in hopes of a cheap (in their eyes) political victory over Obama.

Subject: RE: BS: Republican response to Health Reform
From: Riginslinger
Date: 31 Mar 10 - 01:25 PM

In any event, whatever the Republicans are doing seems to be working with the public.

Subject: RE: BS: Republican response to Health Reform
From: Bobert
Date: 31 Mar 10 - 07:54 AM

Yeah, Don... That is about it... The Repub response has been purdy much like when Bill Clinton was president and thr Repubs held up a spending bill which temporarially shut down the government... It is irresponsible... Heck, if they don't want to participate then they should resign... Their response has left them very vulnerable to some very interesting mid-term ads showing them as being AWOL from their jobs at a time when the nation needed everyone to pull together... I'd love to write some of those ads...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Republican response to Health Reform
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 31 Mar 10 - 06:20 AM

""Because typical of your double standard, you say nothing while the Dems diddled around with their own infighting except to blame it on Republicans.

Then when they finally get their shit somewhat together after a year, with bribes, threats and arm twisting, the final bill they rammed through delays things even more an you claim that it is better than nothing. It could have been even better.

Can you say no one has died because of a lack of health care insurance since the Democrats have been hashing out a bill?""

The Democrats have had a year, against a total stonewall job by republicans, and yes, a few (very few) Democrats, and they have finally managed to ram a largely castrated bill through.

I judge, from those facts, that the opposition is totally responsible for the time it has taken. That opposition did include a few Democrats, but it also included every Republican.

Eight years (and more) of deliberate inaction by Republican Government can only be attributed to Republicans.

So, all in all, the Democrats have been no more than minimally responsible for the deaths they have been seeking desperately to avoid.

The Repubs on the other hand, have sat back and said "FUCK 'EM! LET 'EM DIE, BECAUSE WE WON'T LEND A HELPING HAND IF IT COSTS US ONE RED CENT!

And they are still saying that now.

What the Democrats have achieved, though far from the ideal, is saving lives from day one. Lives that the Repubs have consistently written off as not worth saving. It amazes me that any Republican Senator or Congressman claims any kind of humanity or credibility.

Forty five thousand Americans died for lack of proper healthcare in each and every year of Republican government.

Don T.