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Subject: RE: BS: Spill, Baby, Spill... (Palin & oil spills) From: Sorcha Date: 01 May 10 - 12:37 AM Can I just insert 'alternate energy' here? REDESIGN one heck of a lot of things to it. Solar, wind, water.....STOP being so damn dependant on carbon sources!!! It can't be that difficult....can it? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Spill, Baby, Spill... (Palin & oil spills) From: mousethief Date: 01 May 10 - 12:44 AM It can and is. Building the infrastructure for wind, solar, tide, etc. power production is a massive x massive x massive undertaking. Let alone the power grid able to carry that much more energy. But electric energy for portable devices (cars, planes, trains, boats, Rush Limbaugh's mouth) is no small problem. Current battery technology is woefully insufficient. Nothing carries as much energy in as small a space as coal or petroleum-based fuels. And battery production at this point is very dirty. What is needed is a paradigm shift in energy storage. None seems on the horizon. Our great-grandchildren, after we run out of petroleum, will marvel at pictures of airplanes and wonder how they ever were able to fly through the sky, and not believe it really happened. Like people are starting to doubt the moon landing. Only with better cause. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Spill, Baby, Spill... (Palin & oil spills) From: Sorcha Date: 01 May 10 - 01:10 AM Alex, you are assuming we even HAVE great grandchildren. (smile....) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Spill, Baby, Spill... (Palin & oil spills) From: mousethief Date: 01 May 10 - 01:30 AM Nothing carries as much energy in as small a space as coal or petroleum-based fuels. Well, and plutonium. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Spill, Baby, Spill... (Palin & oil spills) From: Bobert Date: 01 May 10 - 07:14 AM No, Plain and McCain don't hold the seat of power and looking at what's going on in the Gulf, that a good thing... B~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Spill, Baby, Spill... (Palin & oil spills) From: GUEST,number 6 Date: 01 May 10 - 10:35 AM well Bobert since they aren't in power I guess we can sit back and relax 'cause everything is ok in the Gulf right now. biLL |
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Subject: RE: BS: Spill, Baby, Spill... (Palin & oil spills) From: Charley Noble Date: 01 May 10 - 10:46 AM Certainly looks like a major environmental mess to me. I remember quite well the BP long term ad campaign which touted the safely of their deep-sea drilling technology, their redundant back-up systems that could safely deal with any imaginable emergency. The ad campaign made a significant impression on the general public and on public policy including the Obama Administration. All the back-up systems have failed in this instance, the remote underseas cut-off valves and all the rest. And we're left with a continuing environmental and economic disaster of unprecedented dimensions. Palin is not the issue here but it would be gracious if she expressed some concern. Charley Noble |
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Subject: RE: BS: Spill, Baby, Spill... (Palin & oil spills) From: Amos Date: 01 May 10 - 10:53 AM They are still trying to debug their emergency shot-off system which is supposed to be able to clamp down in several different ways, and which failed massively after the accident. Presumably it was structurally damaged. They have RC subs dow there trying to skunk it into operation since it would be the must direct way of shutting off the flow. No easy task. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Spill, Baby, Spill... (Palin & oil spills) From: Riginslinger Date: 01 May 10 - 11:15 AM The news media is calling it Obama's Katrina. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Spill, Baby, Spill... (Palin & oil spills) From: open mike Date: 01 May 10 - 11:26 AM i wish they could find a way to capture the oil somehow and separate if from sea water and refine it. burning it will cause other disasters meanwhile,not seeing this thread i started another when i heard that: Even as the oil slick from the ruined Deepwater Horizon creeps onto the Lousiana shoreline, Reuters is reporting that another offshore drilling rig has overturned- this time among the inland waters near Morgan City, LA. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Spill, Baby, Spill... (Palin & oil spills) From: Q (Frank Staplin) Date: 01 May 10 - 02:05 PM Last night a professor from Rice University made some damning accusations concerning the spill, British Petroleum and the U. S. regulatory mechanisms, and why the best in well control equipment (blowout preventers, etc. were not on the platform. (Aired on CNN last night but not repeated in later telecasts). The offshore wells in Norway and Brazilian waters have the 'state-of-the-art equipment. The professor said the oil companies interested in Gulf offshore prospects said that the preventer equipment was too expensive and not necessary. The government regulators went along with their opinion. Public safety and the public's livehood should be the primary concern of government regulators- whether the products are oil and other natural resources, food products or drugs prescribed for ills. Safety should not be a matter of politics left or right- This should be a primary concern of all governments and their regulatory divisions. When the well failed and the platform caught fire, it was already too late to apply immediate measures; all corrective action would depend on getting the proper equipment and personnel to the site- this would take a few days and an additional drilling rig is still on the way. The Professor from Rice also faulted British Petroleum's record, citing another major spill, the Texas deadly refinery fire, several violations of safety regulations and the current disaster, which could make the Valdez spill look like an oil stain on the garage floor. BP's assets in the United States should be frozen- the possible disaster could put many thousands out of work for several years. And Sorcha, it will take up to 50 years to make alternative energy sources an important part of energy generation. Mousethief has judged it correctly. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Spill, Baby, Spill... (Palin & oil spills) From: Amos Date: 01 May 10 - 02:30 PM The blowout preventers --if we are talking about the same things--were on the seafloor around the well casing. They failed to actuate, even when triggered by the redundant backup switching system. Yet they had been tested only ten days previously. This indicated the accident (whatever it was) damaged them so they couldn't operate. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Spill, Baby, Spill... (Palin & oil spills) From: Riginslinger Date: 01 May 10 - 03:26 PM Or they were sabotaged. Remeber, this whole thing started with an explosion. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Spill, Baby, Spill... (Palin & oil spills) From: pdq Date: 01 May 10 - 04:14 PM Nah, Rigs...you aren't suggesting that this oil rig disaster was "accidentally on purpose" do you? Another one in the same are goes over today. Nah, just a "quinky dinky". Must be. Like that South Korean ship that sank a week or so back, killing a hundred people or more. Must have been pilot error or simpt'n. That talk about a torpedo must be scare tactics. Problem is, you prob'ly listen to Fox News. That's yer probl'm. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Spill, Baby, Spill... (Palin & oil spills) From: Q (Frank Staplin) Date: 01 May 10 - 04:42 PM Amos, my ignorance of the equipment is showing. The equipment described by the Rice professor is not the type of blowout preventer used in the Gulf. I have been trying to find his comments but no luck so far. The shear ram failed to sever the pipe to control the flow. The head of the Well Control School in Houston said the shear ram is the last resort. If it had worked to prevent the pressure surge, "they wouldn't have lost all those people and the rig." "If the blowout preventer fails to control the pressure shooting up from the well, the hydraulically powered shear ram is supposed to sever the pipe and close it off to protect the rig and work crews from the flow of explosive oil and gas, Bohuslavicky said." The slick is twice the size of Maryland. A professor of Mechanical Engineering at Rice said the pressure surge that triggered the fire and sinking of the rig platform may have damaged the valves near the sea floor so that they can't be completely shut. Still looking for the comments about better equipment used off Norway and Brazil. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Spill, Baby, Spill... (Palin & oil spills) From: gnu Date: 01 May 10 - 04:56 PM But, shouldn`t the shear ram be held back by the primary and emergency power supply on a delayed basis, which would mean that it should work after both power supplies were cut... unless the structural failure... nevermind... we shall see, hopefully. Oh, BTW, I am assuming that the shear ram was a double circuit failure device, also being executable by an open circuit override. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Spill, Baby, Spill... (Palin & oil spills) From: Q (Frank Staplin) Date: 01 May 10 - 05:04 PM The find at the Macondo oil well is est. at 100 million bbls. The well was spudded Oct. 2009. The original plan called for the well to be spudded in April 2009. "Mar. 2009- BP submitted an Initial Exploration Plan to MMS for its Macondo prospect in the GOM to drill and temporarily abandon two exploration wells (A & B). The company plans to use a semisubmersible, possibly Transocean's Marianas, to spud the wells in April 2009." "....the prospect, which was acquired at the MMS Lease Sale # 206 in March 2008." From "SUBSEAIQ, Offshore Field Development. www.subseaalq.com Anadarko owns a 25% share of the well, another company owns 10%; BP at 65%; BP is operator. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Spill, Baby, Spill... (Palin & oil spills) From: Q (Frank Staplin) Date: 01 May 10 - 05:14 PM It didn't work, gnu. On paper it should do as you suggest, but it failed. Looks like it won't be fully controlled until a new rig drills an offset. Hence the three month estimate. Depth 18000 feet and cased and cemented (fully?) when the blowout occurred, the subsequent fire finished the damage and sunk the rig. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Spill, Baby, Spill... (Palin & oil spills) From: Q (Frank Staplin) Date: 01 May 10 - 05:26 PM The blowout in the Pemex well. "The blowout preventers were closed on the pipe but could not cut the thicker drill collars, allowing oil and gas to flow to the surface, where it ignited and engulfed the Sedco rig in flames. The rig collapsed and sank onto the wellhead area on the seabed, littering the seabed with large debris such as the rig's derrick and 3000m of pipe." ....... "Two relief wells were drilled to relieve pressure and the well was eventually killed nine months later." This was the biggest spill so far, .... 3.5 million bbls oil released. Extensive damage on the Texas coast. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Spill, Baby, Spill... (Palin & oil spills) From: Joe Offer Date: 01 May 10 - 06:18 PM Apparently, the "Spill, Baby, Spill" phrase has caught on - (click). Please, somebody tell me that Bobert isn't the one who invented the phrase.... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Spill, Baby, Spill... (Palin & oil spills) From: Amos Date: 01 May 10 - 07:04 PM Sorry, Joe, he did. It may hav been also coined by others, though. As for remedies, what happens if they jam an explosive down into the sea floor and light it off? A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Spill, Baby, Spill... (Palin & oil spills) From: open mike Date: 01 May 10 - 07:48 PM what does it mean to "spud" a well? is this like stiking a potatoe over the pipe to stop it? like you do to an exhaust pipe... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Spill, Baby, Spill... (Palin & oil spills) From: Bobert Date: 01 May 10 - 07:54 PM Well, Joe, I hate to say it but while "Spill, Baby, Spill" might have been in someone elses head at the same time it was in my head before I even knew that anyone else had come up with it... Might of fact, I didn't realize that anyone, other than me, had come up with it until reading yer post... But it ain't rocket surgery... B~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Spill, Baby, Spill... (Palin & oil spills) From: Amos Date: 01 May 10 - 08:08 PM Spudding is initiating drilling operations, like the first cut of the peeler into a dirty brown Idaho |
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Subject: RE: BS: Spill, Baby, Spill... (Palin & oil spills) From: Q (Frank Staplin) Date: 01 May 10 - 09:26 PM Interestng map from U. S. Department of the Interior, MMS (Minerals Managamant Service) showing Gulf of Mexico Lease Map. All of these offshore lease and drilling sites were authorized before the recent call to 'drill, baby, drill'. Green = active lease. http://www.gomr.mms.gov/homepg/lsesale/mau_gom_pa.pdf ["Drill, baby, drill," was said by Michael Steele during the 2008 Republican National Convention in Minnesota (of course it follows from "Burn, baby, burn"). Palin was quoting him.] |
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Subject: RE: BS: Spill, Baby, Spill... (Palin & oil spills) From: Bobert Date: 01 May 10 - 10:00 PM Amos, Amos, Amos.... Are you trying to say that we oughtta be pluggin' that well with a tater??? Was that Plan B for PB??? Well, sheet fire, I think it is brillent... I mean. like Menza stuff... Why didn't I think of it??? But nevermind all that stuff... According to Q this entire thing is all on Obama... Maybe they oughtta have him suit up and do the dive with the tater??? BTW, don't taters float??? I was kinda thinkin' somethin' that don't float... Remember back in the 60's an' folks would put cow manure in their radiators to stop leaks??? Maybe whale manure into the well??? I donno... I ain't really a manureologist... B~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Spill, Baby, Spill... (Palin & oil spills) From: Q (Frank Staplin) Date: 01 May 10 - 10:32 PM Found a picture of Bobert the other day. Drool, baby, drool! Bobert |
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Subject: RE: BS: Spill, Baby, Spill... (Palin & oil spills) From: Bobert Date: 01 May 10 - 11:30 PM That ain't me... Ya' got the wrong guy... I don't know who he is but he's creepy... The Ms. Sarah pic on that page is hot, however, dontcha'll think??? I mean, she is a hottie... Dumb as a box of creek rocks but hot... B~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Spill, Baby, Spill... (Palin & oil spills) From: GUEST,number 6 Date: 01 May 10 - 11:39 PM From a town hall meeting in South carolina on April 2nd ... the following is Obama's response when challenged that his "decision to allow offshore drilling could have the effect of chilling investment into alternate sources of energy." While recognizing that "energy efficiency and renewable, clean energy" is his "biggest priority," "I don't agree with the notion that we shouldn't do anything. It turns out, by the way, that oil rigs today generally don't cause spills. They are technologically very advanced. Even during Katrina, the spills didn't come from the oil rigs, they came from the refineries onshore." BTW .... Hurricanes Katrina and Rita Caused 124 Offshore Spills For A Total Of 743,700 Gallons. Clean energy should be the biggest priority. Democrats or Republicans ... nothing has changed ... same old bar stool, same old beer, same old song playing in the juke box ... "drill, baby drill" biLL |
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Subject: RE: BS: Spill, Baby, Spill... (Palin & oil spills) From: GUEST,number 6 Date: 01 May 10 - 11:49 PM oil rigs don't cause spills well ... generally they don't cause spills. biLL |
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Subject: RE: BS: Spill, Baby, Spill... (Palin & oil spills) From: The Fooles Troupe Date: 01 May 10 - 11:53 PM So spills cause Oil Rigs... O K . . . |
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Subject: RE: BS: Spill, Baby, Spill... (Palin & oil spills) From: Bobert Date: 02 May 10 - 10:29 AM The problem here with folks trying to put Katrina around Obama's neck is that it isn't grounded in reality but rather partisn mythology... George Bush had to be forced to fly over New Orleans (3 days afterwards) before he understood that it really happened... That's a bad thing when the president thinks that what he is watching on TV and folks are telling him is like a fictional movie... Then his response was pathetic... After 9/11 he and his boys huffed and puffed about how his team had put together the "National Response Plan" (Google it up for laughs) that would protect Americans if the US had another disaster... Well, here we are, several years later still waiting to see exactly what was in that plan... No, reality is that Katrina called Bush's bluff... Fast forward to what the Obama administration has done and there is a world of difference... It has been involved since Day One, has sent 3 cabinet level people there and is engaged... Engaged, IO think, is the operative word here... Now, as for the spill itself and Obama's fig leaf to the right on off shore drilling??? You can take it to the bank that he ain't gonna play "The Decider" game that Bush played on Iraq... No, you'll see a change of course... Bush was in Eintsien's words, "Insane" because Bush "The Decider" was too inflexible to change his mind when he saw that things weren't working... Obama ain't gonna repeat a behavior expecting a different result... Like I said, you can take that to the bank... B~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Spill, Baby, Spill... (Palin & oil spills) From: bseed(charleskratz) Date: 02 May 10 - 01:39 PM A couple of notes on things nobody above seems to have caught: 1. Rush Limbaugh suggested that since the disaster began on Earth Day, that "liberals" might be guilty of having sabotaged the platform to cause the disaster so people would turn against off-shore drilling. 2. During Cheney's still secret energy policy meetings at the start of Bush's presidency, Cheney assured oil companies drilling in U. S. waters that they wouldn't have to use the expensive "fail safe" well capping techniques that are standard on off-shore sites in the seas around the rest of the developed world. So BP's Gulf platforms are not so equipped. I heard both of these on progressive radio, so I don't have print or internet sources to direct you to for verification, but I the Limbaugh thing was a sound bite in his own voice and not someone saying he said it. Charles |
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Subject: RE: BS: Spill, Baby, Spill... (Palin & oil spills) From: pdq Date: 02 May 10 - 01:51 PM "I heard both of these on progressive radio, so I don't have print or internet sources to direct you to for verification..." The world according to KPFA? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Spill, Baby, Spill... (Palin & oil spills) From: GUEST,number 6 Date: 02 May 10 - 01:55 PM This will be one of the worst eco disasters since the Valdez. Obama has been slow to respond ... this has been spewing oil since when? ... April 21st .... The white House announced it will escalate its response to the spill on April 29th. Today on May 2nd (1 month btw after he stated oil rigs are safe)he decides to go down and see for himself. I gotta say the current administration certainly has a more efficient PR team the last one. Pointing the finger at BP and all that ... hey, up until this rig blew the oil companies where friends of big government. I guess they still friends since the white House has only put a temporary ban on off shore drilling. biLL |
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Subject: RE: BS: Spill, Baby, Spill... (Palin & oil spills) From: Bobert Date: 02 May 10 - 02:03 PM What exactly would you have expected Obama to do that he hasn't done, biLL??? Put on a diver's suit and plug it himself??? I mean, let's get real here... Yes, this is a major eco disaster... I find it amuzing, no, rather sad that alot of people hate the fed government and think it is incompetent but when something like this happens think that the federal governement has all these plans and resources at ahnd to deal with stuff that, frankly, is of a magnitude that none has ever had to deal with??? B~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Spill, Baby, Spill... (Palin & oil spills) From: Q (Frank Staplin) Date: 02 May 10 - 02:34 PM Bobert is right on this one. Nothing could be done after the blowout preventer clamps failed. Even that would only have limited but not have stopped the flow from the high pressure formation that the drill encountered. Until rigs are in place to drill relief wells, the hydrocarbons will continue to flow. Three months may be insufficient time; the one in the Bay of Campeche took nine months, and the flow was smaller. Bseed is right that the US offshore wells lack the state-of-the-art "fail-safe" techniques. I believe this stupid decision by the regulatory agency pre-dates Cheney and Bush, but it should have been red-flagged and corrected regardless of the admin. in power. It was a cost-saving decision- these are often wrong. The Gulf is dotted with many wells, but when a 'giant' is encountered, the best equipment may not be enough. I spent my life in petroleum exploration; the many thousands of professional and technical workers make recommendations based on sound knowledge and experience, but some executives and politicians can override their cautions. I believe petroleum will remain important; in some 50 years much can be done to bring 'clean' energy sources into play, but energy is only part of what petroleum is used for. Look around you at all the plastic materials used to make much of our goods today- they can be replaced but mostly with other materials based on natural resources. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Spill, Baby, Spill... (Palin & oil spills) From: GUEST,number 6 Date: 02 May 10 - 02:54 PM Of course Obama can't just go down there and fix the problem .... and the same goes with Bush during katrina ... but in such catastrophic and tragic events such as these just haveing and seeing their presence at the scene means a lot to the nation, if not the world. This current disaster regarding the oil rigs, and Katrina in regards to the levees ... both of such magnitude that seem incomprhensible on how to deal with ... well, there were warnings and concerns about both the rigs failing, and the levees failing. Do you really feel confident on Obama's statements on April 2nd that the rigs are so technically advance that they could not fail .. that we would never have to worry about or even conceive on having to clean up such an environmental mess ??? biLL |
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Subject: RE: BS: Spill, Baby, Spill... (Palin & oil spills) From: Riginslinger Date: 02 May 10 - 03:16 PM Yeah, Obama owns this one! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Spill, Baby, Spill... (Palin & oil spills) From: Q (Frank Staplin) Date: 02 May 10 - 03:21 PM If Obama made such a statement it was based on incorrect advice. As noted in threads above, cost-saving decisions prevented use of state-of-the-art equipment in U. S. leased offshore wells, although it was installed in Norwegian and Brazilian leased areas; perhaps other areas but I have not looked this up. This is not the first giant field found by BP on their leases in the Gulf; perhaps they were lucky and the pressures encountered were not as great. (I am guessing here). |
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Subject: RE: BS: Spill, Baby, Spill... (Palin & oil spills) From: mousethief Date: 02 May 10 - 03:27 PM How does Obama own this one? Because he was president while it happened? You might as well say he owns a flood. What Bush fucked up on with Katrina was not the fact that he let it happen -- he had no choice about that. It's the fact that FEMA was utterly worthless at responding to it. People were going hungry, sleeping rough, holed up in evacuation centers with insufficient supplies, etc. The Salvation Army got there tout de suite and started helping out immediately. Where was FEMA? The response that the government should have made was days or weeks late, and absurdly misguided. And of course the head of FEMA at the time, appointed by Bush, was a man who had absolutely no experience in emergency management at all, except that time when his daughter got a splinter in her finger and he found the tweezers and pulled it out. THAT is what Bush has on his record regarding Katrina. So. How do you respond to an oil rig blowing up? What should Obama be doing that he isn't? Please be specific. Write small. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Spill, Baby, Spill... (Palin & oil spills) From: GUEST,number 6 Date: 02 May 10 - 03:29 PM "If Obama made such a statement it was based on incorrect advice." come on Q ... I think we've heard that excuse before ... like in the previous administration. biLL |
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Subject: RE: BS: Spill, Baby, Spill... (Palin & oil spills) From: Bobert Date: 02 May 10 - 03:52 PM There is a major difference in not only attentiveness but action between Katrina and this spill... Only a true partisan trying to make political points based on mythology would try to lump the Obama administration's handling of this to the absolute mess that the Bush administartion made of Katrina... But the problem here is systemic in that since deregulations of the 90's the corportaion have (and continue) been given free reigns to "police" themselves... Same problem with the mine disater in Wes Virginia a couple three weeks ago... What we have here is the corportists calling too many of the shots... Think Golman Sacks, Halliburton, Blackwater, Exxon, BP... And the corportists are so scared that Obama will force regulations bacvk on their specfic industries that they are paying lots of $$$$ to lobbiest and PR firms to send a subtle message: Do you want big government in your life??? The phraseology is that "even a caveman" would shout an astounding , "NO!!!"... That is the problem and it's taken US 30 years to get to the point where the nation is in decline because profits have trumped good policy... So the oil industry (Google A.P.I.) here has spent a ton on money getting their point accross and that point is, in the words of my late father-in-law who was an A.P.I. lobbiest, "Don't worry, be happy"... Well, "Don't worry, be happy", in the words of Dr, Phil, ain't workin' for US... What will come out over the next few weeks is that BP was blowing smoke up the Obama's ass on how it had things under control and how little oil was actually leaking... Remember the 1000 barrels a day??? BP had to know... They knew the size of the well and the pressure... Ain't rocket surgery here when you have engineers who go to school to learn these kinds of things... Yet, until it became apparent that BP was blowin' smoke, there really wasn't much that the feds could legally do against BP... This ain't Katrina where there were clear opportunities for the feds to over-ride state and local goevrenments (again, Google National Response Plan)... This is a new ballgame for which their isn't a clear path... Katrina was easy compared to this because we had the resources, the laws and more importantly the knowldge and experience, to do recovery... So let's just leave this bogus claim that this oil; spill is Obama's Katrina where it belongs... On the trash heap... If anything, this is Obama's 9/11... B~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Spill, Baby, Spill... (Palin & oil spills) From: Q (Frank Staplin) Date: 02 May 10 - 04:00 PM Not an excuse. See previous posts. The cost-cutting decisions were made before Bush and Obama set by the regulatory agency. Many people assumed that they were the right decisions, but cost-cutting in engineering decisions are based on statistics and the next one may be the "exception that proves...." and is a killer! Obama, Bush and their predecessors must base their decisions on the advice of the regulatory agencies in charge- they are not engineers or food safety or whatever specialists. If advice from the agencies that set and enforce the regulations is wrong, administrators get blamed when something occurs, but the howl from the public that the administrator is to blame is useless and clueless. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Spill, Baby, Spill... (Palin & oil spills) From: Bobert Date: 02 May 10 - 08:30 PM Exactly correct, Q... That is my point in observing that during the last 30 years the corporations have used mindless or badly mis-informned voters to vote in pro-corportae politicans who have made "regulation" some kind four letter word... And look where it has gotten US??? Cutting corners is the corporate way because in the short term it usually means more profits for Boss Hog and the Fat Cats... Problem is that the beginning of deregulation and the downward spiril of the average American worker can be graphed and they run paralell paths... In other words, the corporation lay off people to maximize profits and therefore leave a smlller workforce to do the same amount of work and then folks are surprised when shit ahppens??? I mean, this deregukation is a recipe for shit happening... Be in coal mines, airplanes, oil rigs, even our dumbass wars... It's no wonder that the US is slipping in just about every measurable category in comparasion to it's competitors... Life expectancy??? Down... Obesity??? Up... Unemplyement and underemployement??? Up??? Standard of living??? Down... Infant mortality??? Up... But, hey, we got NASCAR!!! (spit) B~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Spill, Baby, Spill... (Palin & oil spills) From: GUEST,number 6 Date: 02 May 10 - 09:10 PM "If anything, this is Obama's 9/11" That is good Bobert .... I agree. I only hope better decisions are made in the aftermath ... unlike the insane decisions made in that 'other 9/11' biLL |
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Subject: RE: BS: Spill, Baby, Spill... (Palin & oil spills) From: Q (Frank Staplin) Date: 02 May 10 - 09:16 PM Bobert, you mean our good friends in China, South Korea, Japan, Germany, don't have the same smear of problems? They do. China looks in some ways like the US run away development a hundred years ago. The main difference is that they have a government that can tell the average citizen where to go and what to do. They can push some industries (sometimes damaging the health of both workers and consumers) and hold back others. Their advantage is that their leaders can decide on a plan of action that they think is for the greatest good of China- in other words they channel and direct their capitalism and as a result have a consumer economy that is outstepping that of the West. So parts of the country are left behind- sooner of later they will catch up, but the young head for the city and the old folks and their ways die off. Like it or not, our system (and theirs) is built on growth. OK, growth must be channeled to preserve our world, but the clock cannot be turned back. Small is no longer where it's at. You can try to go back to that little grass shack in Kealakakua, Hawai'i, but the Big M has replaced the fish and poi. The little shack has been replaced by a Walmart. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Spill, Baby, Spill... (Palin & oil spills) From: mousethief Date: 02 May 10 - 09:41 PM Surely there must be something in between going back to little grass shacks, and letting the gigacorporations ruin the planet as they see fit, so that a handful of obscenely rich people can get richer? Of course eventually if they keep dumping on the little people, the little people will wake up and we'll have another revolution, this time along the lines of the French or the Russians, rather than our quaint little dust-up in 1777. I hope it doesn't happen in my lifetime. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Spill, Baby, Spill... (Palin & oil spills) From: The Fooles Troupe Date: 02 May 10 - 10:39 PM "Like it or not, our system (and theirs) is built on growth. OK, growth must be channeled to preserve our world, but the clock cannot be turned back. Small is no longer where it's at." Logically, since we cannot endure or even consider a stop or even limits to that growth, eventually it always leads to a dead end obliteration. And the 'growth' you refer to is 'exponential'. Year 1 total = year 0 total + x% of year 0 total Year 2 total = year 1 total + x% of year 1 total now what happens is that although the x% remains the same number in each year, when you compare it back to year 0 , the % of the year 0 expressed as a number climbs, slowly at first, then rapidly. If you have a desktop calculator, you can play with this yourself until you become convinced. If you have a scum that doubles its area on a pond every day, it will take X days to fully cover that pond - size irrelevant. How many days will it take to cover half of the pond? X-1. that's the power of uncontrolled exponential growth. No matter how small the % growth, eventually you just run out, and will always fill the entire space - and if you have a few billion years of 'future', the % need only be miniscule. For us to survive on earth, we only have 2 mutually exclusive options 1) Zero % growth. 2) population culling. The 'culling' will make space for future obsession with growth, and will either be 'Natural' or 'deliberately man induced'. The equation is also applicable to 'resources' needed - of any and all type. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Spill, Baby, Spill... (Palin & oil spills) From: The Fooles Troupe Date: 02 May 10 - 10:40 PM 100! |
