BS: Is it time for a gay president?

Subject: RE: BS: Is it time for a gay president?
From: Wesley S
Date: 05 Jun 10 - 10:21 AM

I'd still like to hear why ishMael and GfS have such an interest in anyone else's sex life. Even the presidents.

And GfS - Yes - you made a racist remark. There is no other explination for it other than you like to yank peoples chains in order to get badly needed attention. You would earn more respect around here if you would just own up to it.

Subject: RE: BS: Is it time for a gay president?
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 05 Jun 10 - 12:32 PM

Wesley: "And GfS - Yes - you made a racist remark. There is no other explination for it other than you like to yank peoples chains in order to get badly needed attention."

Perception, perception perception!!! The racist bent on things is in YOUR head...not mine. You took it that way because of your obvious left bent on thinking everything said that disagrees with the President,is racist based....which in my case is totally absurd...same with Ebbie! Its the mantra to avoid looking at things the way they really are!...which has never been a leading attribute of ideologues, right or left! Now get off it. open your minds to rational thinking, which, of course, gives way to possibly admitting that your perception(s) may need some adjusting...which it obviously does, or you wouldn't have made that jump...in error!

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Is it time for a gay president?
From: gnu
Date: 05 Jun 10 - 12:52 PM

Maybe just a bisexual to start with? Hey, he could relate to both sides. (Yeah, I thought so too.)

Subject: RE: BS: Is it time for a gay president?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 05 Jun 10 - 12:58 PM

The "other explanation" is the explanation. He was deliberately pulling a lot of people's chains here when he made that remark....waving the red flag at the bull, as it were.

And naturally, the bull has now charged. How gratifying for the matador. ;-D He got exactly what he wanted from you folks who are crying "racist!".

You'll note that I didn't charge the matador, because I knew perfectly well that GfS was just pulling people's chains here with that remark about Michelle Obama. It was way too far off the wall to be taken seriously. I simply said, "She looks fine to me."

You will achieve absolutely nothing by huffing and puffing about GfS being a "racist". He's laughing up his sleeve at you when you do. You have responded right on cue, predictable as Pavlov's dog, and that's what he had in mind.

Subject: RE: BS: Is it time for a gay president?
From: John P
Date: 05 Jun 10 - 01:16 PM

Wow, Little Hawk, it's nice that you are able to see inside of GfS's brain. How do you manage that? Are you absolutely sure it's a troll and not a bigoted asshole?

Subject: RE: BS: Is it time for a gay president?
From: John P
Date: 05 Jun 10 - 01:18 PM

Well, OK, it's probably both.

Subject: RE: BS: Is it time for a gay president?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 05 Jun 10 - 02:04 PM

Child's play, John. ;-) Keep in mind that I've read hundreds and hundreds of posts by GfS in the past year or so about all kinds of subjects, I have a pretty good idea of how his mind works and how his sense of humour works too. GfS is no dummy, and he enjoys arousing ire in the "liberal" crowd here from time to time. Yeah, he was trolling, and he got some nice lively bites on that juicy piece of bait.

It's just naive to get in a frenzy over something like that when it was designed TO put you in a frenzy in the first place. Do you really think anyone here is going to intimidate GfS by labelling him as a "racist"? Not a chance. You're just blowing off steam when you do that, and that's for your own relief, but it won't intimidate him in the slightest.

Subject: RE: BS: Is it time for a gay president?
From: Don Firth
Date: 05 Jun 10 - 02:09 PM

Well, John, Little Hawk is omniscient. Just ask him. He'll tell you.

But humbly, of course.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Is it time for a gay president?
From: John P
Date: 05 Jun 10 - 03:05 PM

I know full well that GfS isn't going to be swayed by anything anyone says. I just can't help sometimes showing her up as bigoted, illogical, rude, and syntax-impaired, even if he isn't able to track what I'm saying. I know I'm just blowing off steam, but it's kind of fun sometimes. When I'm feeling inferior, all I have to do is read a post from her and I feel better right away.

Subject: RE: BS: Is it time for a gay president?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 05 Jun 10 - 04:42 PM

Careful, Don.... ;-) You might offend me and our magnificent friendship will suffer a setback!

John, what makes you so sure that GfS is a female? I know there's been speculation about that before, but I am aware of no evidence to support it.

Subject: RE: BS: Is it time for a gay president?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 05 Jun 10 - 04:46 PM

I know what, John! We could refer to GfS henceforth as "it" in order to avoid the complications of deciding what gender GfS is. And it would save a few keystrokes too.

Subject: RE: BS: Is it time for a gay president?
From: John P
Date: 05 Jun 10 - 04:52 PM

I have referred to it as "it" before. My last post, I decided to alternate "he" and "she". The English language is sadly lacking in non-gender specific third person personal pronouns.

Subject: RE: BS: Is it time for a gay president?
From: akenaton
Date: 05 Jun 10 - 06:51 PM

What if "it" is a "hetertosexual, homosexual activist" like Mr Peekstock?

Subject: RE: BS: Is it time for a gay president?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 05 Jun 10 - 07:41 PM

That is a risk we will just have to take.

Subject: RE: BS: Is it time for a gay president?
From: akenaton
Date: 05 Jun 10 - 07:52 PM

:0)

Subject: RE: BS: Is it time for a gay president?
From: John P
Date: 05 Jun 10 - 08:01 PM

Wow, Akenaton, that really stuck in your craw, didn't it? You sound like you consider some kind of insult. Well, since an insult from you on that topic is really a compliment, I guess I don't have a problem with you're repeating it every chance you get.

Subject: RE: BS: Is it time for a gay president?
From: Wesley S
Date: 05 Jun 10 - 09:32 PM

GfS - If you'll re-read my post you'll see that I never called you a racist. I said that you made a racist remark in order to call attention to yourself. Those are two very different things. I'm not sure why you feel the need to seek the limelight the way you do. Maybe you're unlucky in love, maybe you're fat and unhappy about it. Maybe your mother never breast fed you. I don't know and I don't care enough about you to want to know. But I'm glad the Mudcat is here for you - and others - as an outlet.

Carry on - just try to be a little more original next time.

Subject: RE: BS: Is it time for a gay president?
From: Ed T
Date: 05 Jun 10 - 09:39 PM

Maybe there was already a gay USA president (NTTIAWWT), considering the statistical possibility?

Subject: RE: BS: Is it time for a gay president?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 05 Jun 10 - 10:40 PM

Quite likely there has, I'd say. But there hasn't been an officially gay president yet, and it's the great unlikelihood of that happening which seems like a more interesting topic of discussion to me.

Subject: RE: BS: Is it time for a gay president?
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 06 Jun 10 - 02:06 AM

Not only do you not know my gender, some of you honkies don't even know if I'm white!!!!! Choke on that one!

The reference to Michelle looking like an ape, comes from an E-mail I received a while ago, which had two pictures; one of Michelle and one a chimp. The expression on Michelle's face, when the shot was snapped, was IDENTICAL to the one of the chimp!. It was uncanny! Some of you may have seen the pics, I don't know. The rest was ribbing Little Hawk. I wasn't trolling, but some of you swallowed it hook line and sinker, which surprised the shit out of me!!. Swallowing imaginary bait!..Like I said, 'Perception, perception, perception!'

By the way, the first real band I was in, in the mid 60's was four back up vocalists, behind a lead singer....all black!.. My credits include, Tina Turner, Michael Jackson, and have met Stevie Wonder on several occasions. Also, Gil Scott Heron was a business associate, and a client of one of my sound engineering mentors! James Baldwin, for a time was a close friend.

Racist???? Beauty, as well as ugly, is in the eye of the beholder!

Yo-Ho, Little Hawk!

Regards,
GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Is it time for a gay president?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 06 Jun 10 - 02:31 AM

The great thing about photos of chimps and photos of people is...you can always find a chimp photo that looks a lot like a specific photo of some person...probably any person...if you just match them up right.

Now why hasn't anyone done this yet with Woody Allen? ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Is it time for a gay president?
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 06 Jun 10 - 03:38 AM

In a way, Woody Allen looks like a wimpy version of the lead cowboy toy, in 'Toy Story'...well, at least to me.

Yo-Ho,
GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Is it time for a gay president?
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 06 Jun 10 - 05:27 AM

What a stupid discussion, how can you have a president who desn't know what is backside is for???????

Subject: RE: BS: Is it time for a gay president?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 06 Jun 10 - 07:15 AM

""The reference to Michelle looking like an ape, comes from an E-mail I received a while ago, which had two pictures; one of Michelle and one a chimp.""

And while Michelle has a dark skin, the face of the chimp is pink.

Yet people like GfS only ever equate chimps and gorillas to black folks.

Why is that GfS?

Could it be that you are in fact nothing more than a miserable bigotted racist?

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Is it time for a gay president?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 06 Jun 10 - 07:21 AM

""By the way, the first real band I was in, in the mid 60's was four back up vocalists, behind a lead singer....all black!.. My credits include, Tina Turner, Michael Jackson, and have met Stevie Wonder on several occasions. Also, Gil Scott Heron was a business associate, and a client of one of my sound engineering mentors! James Baldwin, for a time was a close friend.""

YEAH, YEAH, YEAH!

And we are to believe all that because......?

And, by the way, you don't know how many of us "Honkies" are black.

I could as easily claim to be a close friend of the Queen, or even to be the queen.

How would you know?

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Is it time for a gay president?
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 06 Jun 10 - 11:26 AM

Don, Your post is absolutely absurd! It sounds as if you're coming undone! Everything I posted is true. Maybe you're the one who has adopted an irrational tone, because YOU'RE the one who has bigotry issues!

Yes, I've live an extraordinarily well rounded life, in which NOT being in debt, has afforded me a certain freedom, and a healthier outlook. I've managed to get along with most all people, from all races, because the human, not political, side of me, does not cloud my humanity..and I can be REAL with just about anyone. I'm not promoting a false temporary Band-aid, to fit into an 'acceptance box', for anyone else to solve my problems!...Therefore, I can 'call them as I see them'.

You, on the other hand, are working through your regrets, and projecting that onto others...then see them as adversaries!!!

Lighten up. If you want problems to solve, try stacking chords, and inner voice leading, in your music, and still create a beautiful tune.

Best Wishes, and hope you find happiness!

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Is it time for a gay president?
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 06 Jun 10 - 01:22 PM

Don: "You equate black people with gorillas, and then say I've got a problem, when I call you on it."

I did??? Show me..or shut up!!!!...then re-read what I said to you!

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Is it time for a gay president?
From: John P
Date: 06 Jun 10 - 01:31 PM

GfS, bigots have been equating black people with apes for centuries. Get a clue. Whether or not you meant it as a racist comment, given the history of that comparison, it WAS a racist comment. If you didn't mean it that way, you could say something like, "Gosh, I wasn't aware that was a common racist comparison. I apologize for unwittingly making it and promise not to do it again. Please forgive me."

Subject: RE: BS: Is it time for a gay president?
From: John P
Date: 06 Jun 10 - 01:50 PM

Also, given that you are so astonishingly bigoted against homosexuals, it is easy for people to assume you are also bigoted against blacks. If you don't want to be called a bigot, don't talk one, ever.

Subject: RE: BS: Is it time for a gay president?
From: Don Firth
Date: 06 Jun 10 - 02:24 PM

Let me see, now, Gfs. . . .

You are a psychological counselor (previous threads having to do with sexual orientation) and you can cure "gayness."

Now, on this thread, you were a back-up musician for Tina Turner and Michael Jackson. . . .

I am impressed!!

Did I ever tell you about the times I've raised the sick, healed the dead, walked on water, received a knighthood for singing for Queen Elizabeth II, beat Neil Armstrong to the moon, been chased around the bed by both Angelina Joli and Sandra Bullock, and. . . .

Don Firth

P. S. AND I make the world's best gourmet peanut butter and jelly sandwich!!

Subject: RE: BS: Is it time for a gay president?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 06 Jun 10 - 04:32 PM

OK, OK, please settle down, talk about the issue at hand, and stop telling each other they're full of shit.
Several messages deleted.

-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: BS: Is it time for a gay president?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 06 Jun 10 - 05:05 PM

Don, it is a fruitless, pointless occupation to try to prove that another poster here whose posts you don't like is...

a racist
a bigot
a sexist
a fascist
a homophobe
a child molester

or some other very negative label like that.

You can't prove it, and the person you accuse can't disprove it either...therefore you are putting them in an impossible position unless they have the sense to just ignore your personal attacks on them and discuss issues instead.

It's a waste of time engaging in such personal character accusations, and it's a waste of time for the person you accuse to even bother responding to those accusations...because if your mind is made up (which it obviously is), then NOTHING they could possibly ever say could change it, right? So why should they even respond?

So why not just stop doing it, and talk about the social and political issues instead. Discuss the social issues themselves rather than trying to prove that some other person who is posting here is as evil and horrible in character as you have decided to believe they are.

And I advise others here to do the same. Stop trying to prove that so-and-so is a BAAAAAAAD person....and talk about the actual issues instead. Stick to the subject matter. Drop the personal abuse.

Subject: RE: BS: Is it time for a gay president?
From: Ed T
Date: 06 Jun 10 - 05:46 PM

I haven't followed this post...and its many curved paths.

However, to me, there is a difference between openly running for office, openly as a gay person and getting elected and then letting voters know you are gay. The difference is an indication of the tolerance towards and acceptance of different sexual orientation.

Taking this into consideration, Canada has elected at least two federal openly gay Members of Parliament. One is Scott Brison who was Canada's Minister of Public Works and Government Services, and Receiver General of Canada, from 2004 to 2006,and is still a MP and is currently an opposition party spokesperson on Canadian economic issues. His sexual orientation is rarely, if ever, raised as a negative issue. Mr Brison's website http://www.brison.ca/page.asp?pageid=10004

With this mind, maybe Canada will beat the USA in electing a gay leader?

Subject: RE: BS: Is it time for a gay president?
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 06 Jun 10 - 07:36 PM

Well, I figured my post would be deleted(which it was)....let me re-phrase...Don and John, you made stuff up, that I never said. You jumped off into tangents of your own imaginations. Don, I'm not getting back into the homosexual discussion again...after you were shredded the last time...and still you have a need to launder some weird disorder of yours..which I could venture a guess, but I'm not going to give you that attention! You were massively discredited, with your erroneous posts, which they themselves contradicted you political, sans scientific proof stance....even your posts said that the homosexual researcher, who did the work, could not come up with any evidence..to support what you claimed he was saying!!..Go figure!

As to John, you just flat out lied, about the race thing. I guess you live in the 'one trick pony' world. Sorry, it certainly does NOT apply in my case.

You guys get your backs up against the wall, then shriek like banshees that someone is a racist or bigot..and think that's going to wash!..........maybe 40 years ago that might have worked for ya', but that's a worn out, tired false claim....and so are you!

If you have any doubt, or question on what I said about homosexuality, there is another thread that I dealt with that, ACCURATELY! You will see that Don Firth repeatedly misquotes me back to the thread, then tries to rip into me, for what he quotes, even if it isn't what I even remotely said. John, you just tried the same stupid ploy. Sorry, anyone can read it, and make their own judgment, and mind you, if you stay objective, you'll see that your post was sheer foolishness!!

(Well, it was more diplomatic that calling you full of shit!)

Most Sincerely,

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Is it time for a gay president?
From: Ebbie
Date: 06 Jun 10 - 07:55 PM

Ah. So GfS is NOT attacking? Good to know.

Subject: RE: BS: Is it time for a gay president?
From: Don Firth
Date: 06 Jun 10 - 07:57 PM

I could cut and paste your quotes, GfS, as I did before, if you would like.

But of course, you swore up and down that your posts that I was quoting from had been posted by someone else using your handle, and then you accused me of doing it. And that, by tracing your computer's IP number, was proven to be false.

I don't need to do anything like that, GfS, because you have a strong tendency to repeatedly commit suicide with the same weapon that Samson used against the Philistine hordes. [Look it up.]

So, counselor and back-up musician for a whole menagerie of famous performers, and God knows what all else that might prove convenient, your credibility is toast. Nothing you say is worth noting.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Is it time for a gay president?
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 07 Jun 10 - 12:48 AM

Don Froth: "So, counselor and back-up musician for a whole menagerie of famous performers, and God knows what all else that might prove convenient, your credibility is toast. Nothing you say is worth noting."


Get over it!...and stop projecting your own unaccomplished self onto anyone else, who has actually done something. ..I mean spinning 45 minute concertos isn't really all that exhausting, is it?...Neither does it take a lot of talent. Abandoning your wife and son to follow your turntable dream, isn't much to crow about either. I just read that your most recent struggled accomplishment was getting your Medi-caid/Welfare package in the mail!!... Hats off, and congratulations on you latest achievement!

..so little have you accomplished, that now you want to exhume quotes from another post, that I think sucked up enough time and cyber-space. Maybe another 5 runs at it, and you can come up with a spin, even you would believe!...jeez, maybe you believed all of them!

No, Ebster, I'm not going to attack....in fact Don's dizzying posts belong in a circus, somewhere next to the Carousel.....and the portable toilets!!!

In earnest,

GfS

OH, P.S., Newsguy, I never said that I was backing them up....as a musician.....can't you read??...or get ANYTHING right???

Subject: RE: BS: Is it time for a gay president?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 07 Jun 10 - 01:31 AM

He is counterattacking and defending himself, all right, Ebbie, but he isn't calling anyone a "racist", a "sexist", a "bigot", a "homophobe" or some other highly damning socio-political label like that which is impossible to disprove AND impossible to defend oneself against when accused of it (just like back when they were calling people "witches"...there was no possible defence against such a charge...any attempt you made to defend yourself was only taken to be proof of your guilt...and silence was likewise taken to be proof of your guilt).

He's saying that people have made stupid comments about him that aren't true. Fine. He has a right to say that if he wants to, and it's not the same thing as calling someone a racist, a bigot, a homophobe or some other such hate label. It's the hate labels I object to, because they are used as a single-word way of symbolically destroying and casting out another person, and they are used in far too glib and unsubstantiated a manner by people...mainly to satisfy the ill will of the person using them.

If, on the other hand, you say that you think something someone here said about you was "stupid" or incorrect...well, fine...that's your opinion, and I don't see anything wrong with stating it. That's just a matter of individual opinion, and it doesn't condemn the other person the way those hate labelling words do.

People here are quick to label someone else a "bigot" or a "racist" or a "sexist" or an "antisemite" or some other hate label like that because they figure it'll really hurt the other person, they know there's no possible way of defending oneself against it, and it satisfies their spiteful desire to immediately strike out and hurt the other person. I think it's a mean and shitty thing to do to someone you're talking to, and I wish people here would stop doing it. It's also a damned lazy way of conducting an argument. You'd think they could discuss the actual subject matter of the debate, rather than just falling back on their favorite damnation word...but they'd rather make hate-labeling character attacks that cannot be defended once the accusation is hurled. That's the way you got a witch burned in Salem. Fortunately, we aren't in Salem anymore, but the same Inquisition-style tactics are still being used by the "righteous" to silence their opposition.

And people get away with it. All the time. Providing they go after a target that has no practical way of defending itself against the charge.

If you disagree with a person..............DEBATE the points they have raised! Respond with reasoned points of your own. Do that instead of labelling them a "racist", a "bigot", a "homophobe", an "antisemite", or a "sexist". The hate labels don't lead anywhere. They bring communication between people to a full stop. They encourage nothing but hatred between people. They arouse fury in the person they are directed at, and you'd know that if YOU were that person. They are the tactics of the Inquisition and the High Executioner.    They shed no useful light whatsoever on any situation. And they are a symptom of mental laziness besides...not to mention, excessive pride.

Subject: RE: BS: Is it time for a gay president?
From: Don Firth
Date: 07 Jun 10 - 01:42 AM

Sure, GfS, sure.

Yada yada yada. . . .

. . . full of sound and fury, signifying nothing!

Don Firth

P. S. By the way, here's a hint:   never take a laxative. If you do, your head will shrink down to the size and general shape of a raisin.

No need to thank me.

Subject: RE: BS: Is it time for a gay president?
From: mousethief
Date: 07 Jun 10 - 01:43 AM

P. S. By the way, here's a hint:   never take a laxative. If you do, your head will shrink down to the size and general shape of a raisin.

What's your evidence it's any larger now?

Subject: RE: BS: Is it time for a gay president?
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 07 Jun 10 - 02:13 AM

Thank you, Little Hawk, for your voice of reason. You'd think that some of these sycophants of society, would appreciate the people whose tax dollars are keeping their sorry asses alive!..rather than projecting onto them the same lame, lazy psychic vampire world they think from! They even invent new 'causes' for us to pay for, just to launder their guilt, and distract everyone from the fact that they're just another deadbeat on the dole!...(They call it being a 'political activist'!!!!)

Yo-Ho!!

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Is it time for a gay president?
From: Wesley S
Date: 07 Jun 10 - 07:36 AM

If I read GfS's post correctly it didn't state that it was a back-up musician for Black performers - just that it had profitable business ventures with Blacks. Of course plantation owners can say the same thing. That doesn't make one a racist. The only was we can guess the intentions of someone here is by what they say for themselves { very few of you know that I taught Pete Seegar how to play the banjo,Louis Armstrong how to play the cornet, Jimi Hendrix how to play the guitar and John Coltrane how to play the sax. On different days of course[and I was the fifth Beatle} }.

So if someone compares Michelle Obama to a gorilla they should not be suprised if others would make the leap to consider that person a racist. Esp if there were no links or explanations going further with a reason behind that comparison.

So let's leave the poor thing alone. It's suffered the slings and arrows of outragous fortune enough. If it left we'd all just have to get along with each other. And how much fun would that be?

It's Monday. A good day to go practice the guitar.Who cares if anyone else is gay - or not? Don't we have better things to do?

Subject: RE: BS: Is it time for a gay president?
From: John P
Date: 07 Jun 10 - 10:28 AM

I, too, would like to talk about the issues instead of each other. HOWEVER, Little Hawk, you are saying that we should not confront and name bigotry when it raises its ugly head. Many of us think that not speaking in the face of bigotry and hate is to tacitly endorse and permit them. I agree that nothing we say will change the mind or the heart of the bigot one whit, but that's not the reason we choose to vocally oppose them.

As for GfS's claims:
By the way, the first real band I was in, in the mid 60's was four back up vocalists, behind a lead singer....all black!.. My credits include, Tina Turner, Michael Jackson and I have met Stevie Wonder on several occasions.

I know that GfS is language-challenged, but I see no way to read this that doesn't imply it was in Tina Turner's and Michael Jackson's bands.

As to whether the United States will elect an openly gay president sooner than other countries, I doubt it. We still have lots of officially sanctioned discrimination going on. Until we have laws against this discrimination and a couple of generations for people to learn how to behave, I don't see it. That's about how long it took us to elect a partially black president after we outlawed official bigotry against African-Americans.

Subject: RE: BS: Is it time for a gay president?
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 07 Jun 10 - 10:58 AM

Wesley(Whose myoptic lameness started this whole thing): " So if someone compares Michelle Obama to a gorilla they should not be suprised if others would make the leap to consider that person a racist."

You missed your calling. You should have been a coordinator to the high jumpers for the Special Olympics.

Ironic, you didn't climb all over me for being anti-Semitic comparing Woody Allen to a cartoon character from 'Toy Story'. Selective name calling....besides, he's not signing your checks

Yeah, go practice your guitar, while waiting for your benefits.

Here, just for you to practice:

http://www.altorecorder.com/PDFs/Kumbayah.PDF

John P; "I know that GfS is language-challenged, but I see no way to read this that doesn't imply......"

".....That John is reading comprehension challenged."
See if ol' Wes has a career for you in high jumping!

Enough.

Oh, and P.S. again. This was NOT a slur about the 'Special Olympics'. I'm not the President!

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Is it time for a gay president?
From: Ebbie
Date: 07 Jun 10 - 11:25 AM

"...you didn't climb all over me for being anti-Semitic comparing Woody Allen to a cartoon character from 'Toy Story' GfS

Funny. It didn't even occur to me that this remark was anti-Semitic, only that it referred to Woody Allen's persona and slight body. While comparing Michelle Obama to a gorilla could refer ONLY to her color, therefore making it a racist statement.

BTW, disclaiming intent while making outrageous comments doesn't make the comments any less outrageous.

Subject: RE: BS: Is it time for a gay president?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 07 Jun 10 - 11:37 AM

John, you said, "HOWEVER, Little Hawk, you are saying that we should not confront and name bigotry when it raises its ugly head."

No. That is not what I'm saying. I'm saying that you shouldn't call another person whom you are having a discussion WITH a bigot, and you shouldn't confuse political attack aimed at ONE public individual with the more generalized form of hatred toward groups of people that we call "bigotry".

I took exception to GfS comparing Michelle Obama to a chimp, because it was unfair to Michelle Obama herself, but I didn't call GfS a bigot for doing it. And I'll tell you why. Number 1, I DON'T call another human being a bigot when I'm having a conversation with them. That's a good way of torpedoing the conversation and ending ANY chance of further useful communication.

Number 2, it isn't necessarily bigotry or racism to depict one political figure you don't like as a chimp. It's simply a personal attack on that political figure, that's all. Just about everyone here spent much time comparing George Bush Jr. to a chimp and laughing at pictures of Bush next to pictures of chimps or cartoons of Bush as a chimp or a monkey. Ha! Ha! We all (almost all) thought it was very funny, didn't we?

Was it racism? No. Was it bigotry? No. It wasn't aimed at White people as a race. It was simply a nasty personal attack on George Bush. But we were all for that, because we didn't agree with George Bush politically, right? We loved it! ;-)

I've seen caricatures of Iran's Ahmadinejad done up as an ape too. I've seen similar caricatures of Iran's Ayatollahs done up as apes. Many Iranians no doubt get very angry over that, just like Americans would get angry if it was coming back the other way, but the reason such caricatures of specific political individuals are done is NOT because of their race...it's because of the politics.

GfS doesn't like the Obamas strictly in a political sense as far as I know. Therefore he launches personal attacks on them, as we all do on political figures we don't like. He doesn't like either the Democratic or the Republican parties, and he has repeatedly criticized them both for what they have done when in office. His attack was not made on a whole racial group, it was a personal attack on Michelle Obama, for political reasons, in my opinion. That's unfair to Michelle Obama, because it implies that she is stupid and ugly, which is not true, but it's not an attack on Black people as a group. It's simply a personal attack on Michelle Obama.

If a cartoonist, for example, were to routinely caricature ALL Blacks or ALL Whites or ALL Jews or ALL Iranians to make them look apelike....THEN it would clearly be bigotry. No doubt about it. If a cartoonist, however, attacks only a specific political figure of ANY race or culture in that fashion, he's making a demeaning personal attack on that politician, but he is not demonstrating bigotry. Bigotry applies right across the board to a whole cultural group or race, it doesn't just go after one person.

For instance, the Nazis went after ALL Jews, didn't they? On principle. That's bigotry. And for instance, there was a time in the 1800s when cartoonists in many North American publications portrayed ALL Irish immigrants to America as apelike, ugly primitives. THAT was bigotry.

I see no evidence whatsoever that GfS despises and is against Black people in general, therefore I see no evidence of bigotry on his part. What I do see evidence of is that he made an inappropriately insulting remark about Michelle Obama which I don't see any reason for making.....but, hey! How many insulting remarks have been made here about George Bush or Sarah Palin? Hundreds. Thousands. And did we object to that? No. Not except for a few like DougR, Bearded Bruce, and pdq. Most of us really enjoy making demeaning and insulting remarks about political figures we don't like. We aren't demonstrating bigotry in so doing, we aren't demonstrating racism in so doing, we're just demonstrating the usual nastiness and killer instinct that politics seems to bring out in just about anybody...and not one of us is innocent of that.

In fact...we're quite proud of ourselves, aren't we? ;-D It's always considered perfectly allright to throw insulting crap at "the other side", and we all do it....but oh, my! What a fuss when the other side does it back to US!

Think about it.

Subject: RE: BS: Is it time for a gay president?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 07 Jun 10 - 11:52 AM

It was a political attack, Ebbie. Comparing a person to an ape implies a number of things about that person. It implies that they are stupid, that they are primitive, and that they are silly looking or ugly looking. It is not, by definition, an attack on their race regardless of what race we are talking about, unless it is routinely directed by the attacker at the members of that race in general.

I see no evidence that GfS routinely attacks Black people in general, I only see evidence that he attacks the Obamas politically, same as you or I have many times attacked George Bush or Dick Cheney politically. GfS doesn't like Bush and Cheney either, by the way.

Subject: RE: BS: Is it time for a gay president?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 07 Jun 10 - 11:56 AM

200! Yadda yadda.

Subject: RE: BS: Is it time for a gay president?
From: Wesley S
Date: 07 Jun 10 - 12:18 PM

Little Hawk - You seem to have an amazing talent for knowing the unknowable. How is it that you are able to define the motives of someone you've never met { we assume } and don't really know? And is there anyone you would not defend? Tell the truth. Haven't you ever just said "That guy's a blithering idiot - a real wanker". Or does everyone have noble motives that we mere mortals are unable to see?

In a general sense { I'm not talking about anyone in particular } - Sometimes what you see IS what you get. Some people are just jerks. But you always seem to be able to defend anyone and everyone. Charles Manson is just misunderstood and really has a good side after all. I suspect your capacity to endure BS is a lot better than mine. My hat's off to you.

Subject: RE: BS: Is it time for a gay president?
From: John P
Date: 07 Jun 10 - 12:19 PM

Little Hawk, please pay attention. I didn't say that GfS was bigoted against blacks. I said it made a comparison that is a common racial slur and recommended that it acknowledge that. I also said it shouldn't be surprised that people assume it is bigoted against blacks because it is, demonstrably, bigoted against homosexuals and it made a comment that lots of people know has been widely used in a racist way. So yes, I called it a bigot, but not against blacks.

What do you think should happen when people make overtly bigoted comments? Should we just ignore them and let the comment stand? How is that not a tacit agreement with the comment? Isn't public shaming one of the tools against those who speak with a bigoted voice?