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Subject: RE: BS: Have a Glorious Twelfth! (Drumcree Parade) From: Jim Carroll Date: 19 Jul 10 - 10:54 AM Can we just put into context the 'handful of contentious) marches. These are the ones in Belfast and Derry; they are the most intimidating and they are targeted where they can give the greatest amount of offence; unsurprisingly - it is these that cause the most trouble. Gerry Kelly's plea that the Loyalists should cop on to themselves is carefully steered around in this debate - not as convenient for the argument, I suppose. It has been inferred throughout this debate and the Bloody Sunday one that, because I take the stance that I do, I am somehow waving the flag for the Nationalist side, yet here once again we have yet another attempt (by the one who shouts the loudest for the Unionist cause) to blame 'the other side' - see last post. The Loyalists aren't the only ones who should cop on to themselves - all trouble is a response to the provocation caused by the marches and the practice of the marchers who have been banned from marching in Nationalist areas parading back through those forbidden areas when the march has officially finished. Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Have a Glorious Twelfth! (Drumcree Parade) From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 19 Jul 10 - 10:12 AM If the Disney corporation decided to open a theme park for 'recreational rioting' they would put it in the Ardoyne district of Belfast. That is what a priest from Ardoyne suggested in the aftermath of the latest violence by young people in north Belfast. The remarks by Fr Gary Donegan were tongue-in-cheek, but they signify the international damage being done to Northern Ireland's reputation as a model for conflict resolution. The phrase 'recreational rioting' was made in Belfast, to describe the traditional outbreak of street disturbances once the summer school holidays begin. After a third consecutive night of trouble, Fr Donegan said: "I pulled stones out of the hands of children. "It was a bit like a Euro Disney theme park for rioting. It was ludicrous." Most of the young rioters were simply bored kids looking for some excitement in an inner city area where they complain of having nothing else to do. Children as young as eight-years-old have been involved in the violence. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern+ireland-10642007 |
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Subject: RE: BS: Have a Glorious Twelfth! (Drumcree Parade) From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 19 Jul 10 - 10:08 AM A KKK march in Harlem would be seriously contentious. Most Orange marches are not. A handful out of thousands. The riots in Belfast were mostly sustained by activists bussed in by RIRA and school kids. Assistant Chief Constable Duncan McCausland said: "This was a substantially smaller group of people than previous evenings, which included a hardened core of around 12 people who were intent on causing disorder. http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2010/0715/breaking17.html |
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Subject: RE: BS: Have a Glorious Twelfth! (Drumcree Parade) From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 19 Jul 10 - 09:53 AM But Gerry Kelly says that all but a handful are NOT CONTENTIOUS. No change needed. Everybody happy. Move on. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Have a Glorious Twelfth! (Drumcree Parade) From: Ruth Archer Date: 19 Jul 10 - 09:29 AM No. We won't be there until the parades in NI are re-routed away from Catholic areas. I would reiterate my parallel of the KKK marching through Harlem. You wouldn't like it and you wouldn't condone it, surely. It is an act specifically confrontational in its intent. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Have a Glorious Twelfth! (Drumcree Parade) From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 19 Jul 10 - 09:25 AM Since only a handful of the thousands of parades are contentious, we are pretty well there aren't we? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Have a Glorious Twelfth! (Drumcree Parade) From: Ruth Archer Date: 19 Jul 10 - 09:19 AM "They are weapons of sectarianism and by ignoring this fact you are condoning that sectarianism - for all your high-sounding protests." True dat. "As an outsider, it is hard not to gain the impression that some people simply can not bear to see the Protestant people happily and harmlessly doing their own thing once a year." Let them do it outside of Catholic neighbourhoods, and we're good to go. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Have a Glorious Twelfth! (Drumcree Parade) From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 19 Jul 10 - 07:25 AM As an outsider, it is hard not to gain the impression that some people simply can not bear to see the Protestant people happily and harmlessly doing their own thing once a year. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Have a Glorious Twelfth! (Drumcree Parade) From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 19 Jul 10 - 07:07 AM How exactly are the parades "weapons of sectarianism"?? Exactly what effect are they having on the Catholic community? Is anyone else complaining about costs? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Have a Glorious Twelfth! (Drumcree Parade) From: Jim Carroll Date: 19 Jul 10 - 06:58 AM John Your post neatly sidesteps the historical reasons for these marches taking place, the effect they have had and are continuing to have on the Catholic minority, and the cost of allowing them to go ahead in their present form, both in providing policing and in the risk they bring to life and the wellbeing of the communities affected. They are weapons of sectarianism and by ignoring this fact you are condoning that sectarianism - for all your high-sounding protests. Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Have a Glorious Twelfth! (Drumcree Parade) From: John MacKenzie Date: 19 Jul 10 - 05:14 AM Ruth Archer, have you ever been persecuted for you religion?.. I have Were you brought up in a sectarian society?.. Well I was I was brought up in and around Glasgow, and let me tell you, sectarianism is/was as rife in the west of Scotland, as it is in the Sick Counties. I decided a long time ago, to be grown up about it, and not to take sides. I am in favour of letting people celebrate old victories, all countries do it. I am also in favour of a united Ireland, it makes sense, and would right a wrong that is almost 90 years old. Whether you use Londonderry or Derry, immediately betrays your leanings on the matter, so I find it best to call it both or refrain. It really is an emotional minefield, and I suggest that rose tinted, or any other tint of spectacles, is not the best way to look at this question. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Have a Glorious Twelfth! (Drumcree Parade) From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 19 Jul 10 - 05:13 AM "No - it sounds like I want the reasons for their taking place curtailed" I know I am just an eejit, but am I the only one baffled by that? What does it mean Jim? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Have a Glorious Twelfth! (Drumcree Parade) From: Jim Carroll Date: 19 Jul 10 - 04:52 AM No - it sounds like I want the reasons for their taking place curtailed. Look on and you will find I also said that there is nothing wrong with marching to celebrate - whatever. Don't be selective - it's dishonest. Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Have a Glorious Twelfth! (Drumcree Parade) From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 19 Jul 10 - 03:37 AM Jim, you did say about these marches,"While they are allowed to continue, so will the violence, and due to the delicate political situation in Ireland today, they are quite likely to escalate into full-scale warfare again, as they did in the past." That does sound like you want them banned. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Have a Glorious Twelfth! (Drumcree Parade) From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 19 Jul 10 - 03:35 AM "curtail their threatening nature" Bowler hats? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Have a Glorious Twelfth! (Drumcree Parade) From: Jim Carroll Date: 19 Jul 10 - 03:13 AM Joe; I was interested that a visitor to Ireland found these marches "scary" - that's certainly how they have always struck me, and I grew up with them. I can't recall anybody suggesting banning them altogether, but regulating them in order to curtail their threatening nature and preventing them from taking place anywhere near Nationalist areas just seems simple common sense to me - but that would rather go against their purpose, I suppose. Regarding the latter, apparently the main trouble in the Nationalist areas has occured when, following a march that has been re-directed, the marchers make a point of returning through the forbidden areas en-masse, thus inciting the violence. I notice that the Police Service of Northern Ireland have been informed that, on top of having around a dozen of their officers hurt in the recent rioting in Belfast, they now have to find the funding themselves for policing them, adding a further burden to their already seriously overstretched budget - but that's the price that has to be paid for keeping these quaint old traditions alive! Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Have a Glorious Twelfth! (Drumcree Parade) From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 19 Jul 10 - 02:36 AM When my boys were small, they saw a Chinese dragon in a parade that really scared them, and that was meant to be scary. I am an outsider without experience of Orange parades, but to me they do not seem intended to scare. Joe, you said it scared you half to death, but the only reason you could give was their unusual dress. That is their traditional dress. Apart from that was there anything overtly threatening or hostile? You are being honest about the effect on you, but if it was just a subjective, irrational response to their appearance, that was not their fault. Your honest opinion Joe. Given that only a handful of the thousands of these parades cause any problems, should they be banned? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Have a Glorious Twelfth! (Drumcree Parade) From: Joe Offer Date: 19 Jul 10 - 12:19 AM Well, I confess that I'm glad I saw the marchers. There was something very interesting about seeing all those men in blacks suits and tie with white shirts and bowler hats. But yeah, they were scary. Here in the Sierra Nevada Foothills of California, we have E. Clampus Vitus, a bunch of redneck drunk guys in miner's clothing - and sometimes with guns. They can be scary too - but interesting. -Joe- |
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Subject: RE: BS: Have a Glorious Twelfth! (Drumcree Parade) From: Melissa Date: 19 Jul 10 - 12:01 AM Some groups are pretty scary when they go tromping around intimidatingly! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Have a Glorious Twelfth! (Drumcree Parade) From: Joe Offer Date: 18 Jul 10 - 11:16 PM I dunno, Melissa. I've seen the marchers in Armagh. They may have been completely legal in what they were doing, but they still scared me half to death. -Joe- |
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Subject: RE: BS: Have a Glorious Twelfth! (Drumcree Parade) From: mg Date: 18 Jul 10 - 10:05 PM If they had always marched up and down that road banging their drums on the same day each year in the same way and did not start it up because I quarreled with them, then it would be my duty to of course put up with their parade. I would try to go to the library for the duration. l mg |
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Subject: RE: BS: Have a Glorious Twelfth! (Drumcree Parade) From: Melissa Date: 18 Jul 10 - 09:09 PM mg, It looks to me like you are a little bit sensitive to the perspective of some of our fellow posters. I don't see anything particularly obnoxious about the variety of viewpoints in this thread but that doesn't make your reaction any less valid in my mind. I would not be bothered if the posters you see as rude and offensive paraded in front of my house (or in the middle of whatever threads I happen to be following)or through the main street of my hometown. It's a matter of context. This forum tiff means nothing to me because I'm an unaffected outsider--sort of like some of us are outsiders to the thread topic and no matter what our notions are or how ready we may be to judge, what we have are the perceptions our imagination provides. That's not the same as real experience. Would it bother you if you knew there was a certain weekend that the posters who've ruffled your feathers would bring their friends and march up and down your road? Would you detest a celebration marking the day they pissed you off enough for you to be completely done with them? Would you hate feeling like they were making a big show of rubbing your face in it? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Have a Glorious Twelfth! (Drumcree Parade) From: GUEST,mg Date: 18 Jul 10 - 08:02 PM I am done with you. You are rude and offensive and from now on I will not read what you have to say, and you are in the dubious company of two other rude and offensive people that I will not read. When i say done I mean done..out of my life period. mg |
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Subject: RE: BS: Have a Glorious Twelfth! (Drumcree Parade) From: Ruth Archer Date: 18 Jul 10 - 07:09 PM Well, I can barely bring myself to respond to you because you insist on waving your profound ignorance like a flag (a big ol' Jello-green flag, in fact), but I'll press on... "However, if a southern group of say Confederate veterans were still alive and wanted to peacefully march to remember their fallen comrades in a place where from 1860 or whenver they have continually done so, say in Georgia, yes. mg" Actually, that is a staggering enough admission, given that even flying the Confederate flag in the south is a hugely politically-charged act. But this isn't about people remembering "fallen comrades" - this is a celebration of subjugation and oppression. See, you're trying to rob the situation of its context and its political charge. And you simply can't. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Have a Glorious Twelfth! (Drumcree Parade) From: GUEST,mg Date: 18 Jul 10 - 06:55 PM more to the point and I can barely stand to respond to you because I think you are so rude, no to KKK, no to marching through Harlem. However, if a southern group of say Confederate veterans were still alive and wanted to peacefully march to remember their fallen comrades in a place where from 1860 or whenver they have continually done so, say in Georgia, yes. mg |
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Subject: RE: BS: Have a Glorious Twelfth! (Drumcree Parade) From: Ruth Archer Date: 18 Jul 10 - 06:51 PM And that list of names is relevant because...? More to the point: "If the KKK insisted on marching through Harlem, would you suggest that the black residents' response should be to chuck on hoods and put burning crosses on their own lawns?" |
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Subject: RE: BS: Have a Glorious Twelfth! (Drumcree Parade) From: GUEST,mg Date: 18 Jul 10 - 06:49 PM and furthermore, here are the families entertwined with mined, possibly immigrating together, marrying together, working on canals together that I and my second cousins (I do not have first cousins because my grandfather died of Spanish flu before giving my father more siblings)...are trying to sort out. James and Catherine McGuire Susanna McGreevy Michael and Margaret Noonan Batt and Hanora Crehan Mary Doolin adn Cornelius Sullivan James Shanahan Patrick Dulin Joseph Ryan and Catherine Burns Daniel McGreevy Thomas cGreevy John S. and Kate Sullivan Andrew and Bridget Quinn John H and Jennie Priest William Garveya nd Nora Cavanaugh James Eagan and Catherine O'Brian John O'Brian and Bridget ROach Patrick Eagan Thomas Powers Barney and Catherine Finegan Thomas and Margaret Flinn William kelly and Rosanna Devery Lawrence Carlin Mary Flinn Thomas and Bridget Moriarty Edward and Catherine Moriarty Sylvester and Catherine Moriarty Margaret Flinn John Brown and ? O'Riley. Patrick and Elizabeth Malone Maurice Cavanaugh and Marie Cannadie Michael McGahan Maurice Cahalan and Maria Crowe Maurice Fitzgerald and Ellen Sullvian Katherine Fitzgerald Edward and Margaret Flinn John and Mary Ann Crowe Edward abd Mary Flinn John Branigan Maurice Brown nd Helen Moriarty Peter Carlin and Bridget Collins Johyn and Johana Sheehy John and Lizzie Kneeland Michael and Mary Sullivan Patrick and Mary SUllivan Cornelius and Mary Sullivan James and Nan Sullivan Michael and Johannah Fitzgerald James SUllivan and Mary Fenton Timothy and Johanna Leehy Sulvester White Andrew and Bridgett Quinn Serry Finegan and Alice Thomas and Mary Finegan Thomas and Rose Morris Patrick and Bridget Morris McGreevey Michael Murphy and Margaret John Murphy and Catherine Hargan Pat Murphy and Ellen Manning James Kelly and Rose Well, that is enough for now. If anyone more culturally attuned than me can help me sort these out, I believe many came from County Kerry..Dingle area specifically. mg |
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Subject: RE: BS: Have a Glorious Twelfth! (Drumcree Parade) From: Ruth Archer Date: 18 Jul 10 - 06:39 PM "I would like to make it 7 about people feeling free to insult my ancestors." Erm, as someone of Irish American heritage I don't think I was insulting your ancestors or my own - I think I was suggesting that you need to learn a bit more about what is actually happening in NI in 2010 before proposing such facile "solutions". |
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Subject: RE: BS: Have a Glorious Twelfth! (Drumcree Parade) From: GUEST,mg Date: 18 Jul 10 - 06:35 PM And furthermore my Irish American heritage includes writing songs in their honor. 1. About the soupers. 2. About leaving Dingle. 3. Dingle to Tralee -- about dragging a dying man in a cart to the workhouse in Tralee after you have eaten the donkey. 4. Jack Moriarty -- about the last dance between father and son and father putting his son on a coffin ship to New Brunswick. 5. Gross Isle -- about throwing the dead and alive off the ship with the alive dying in the mud after making it across the ocean and surviving the cholera on board 6. About the railroads and people dying of exhaustion building them. I would like to make it 7 about people feeling free to insult my ancestors. mg |
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Subject: RE: BS: Have a Glorious Twelfth! (Drumcree Parade) From: Ruth Archer Date: 18 Jul 10 - 06:33 PM mg, more relevant than Bing Crosby, Molly Malone or your family history is this question, which you don't seem to want to answer: "If the KKK insisted on marching through Harlem, would you suggest that the black residents' response should be to chuck on hoods and put burning crosses on their own lawns?" Because that's the equivalent of what you are asking of the Catholic community in NI during marching season. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Have a Glorious Twelfth! (Drumcree Parade) From: Ebbie Date: 18 Jul 10 - 06:33 PM You tell 'em, Mary. :) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Have a Glorious Twelfth! (Drumcree Parade) From: GUEST,mg Date: 18 Jul 10 - 06:26 PM And furthermore no need to insult Bing Crosby. He was a family friend..or his father was actually to my grandfather. His father started either Knights of Columbus or Holy Name Society in Tacoma. My grandfather was supposedly a great singer. Perhaps he liked cliched songs..and perhaps he influenced young Bing with his singing of cliched songs. Maybe it is his fault. mg |
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Subject: RE: BS: Have a Glorious Twelfth! (Drumcree Parade) From: GUEST,mg Date: 18 Jul 10 - 06:19 PM And quite possibly it includes being taken as slaves to Barbados. Not immediate ancestors but relatives. mg |
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Subject: RE: BS: Have a Glorious Twelfth! (Drumcree Parade) From: Ruth Archer Date: 18 Jul 10 - 06:16 PM "And furthermore I have the Dubliners singing Molly Malone on youtube right now" Well, obviously it doesn't get much more hardcore than that. McKenzie, I have lived half my life in this country and half in the US, and lived for many years with friends from Derry, Belfast and the Ardoyne. So, as we Americans say, bite me. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Have a Glorious Twelfth! (Drumcree Parade) From: GUEST,mg Date: 18 Jul 10 - 06:16 PM And furthermore my Irish American heritage consists of people dying in the famine, and then coming over here possibly to Grosse Isle..not sure...my Irish American heritage consists of knowing not until a couple of years ago even the names of my ancestors or where they were from. It consists of people working on the canals and then on the railroads and freezing to death and going insane from the hardships. Any further comments on my Irish American heritage or lack thereof? mg |
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Subject: RE: BS: Have a Glorious Twelfth! (Drumcree Parade) From: Ebbie Date: 18 Jul 10 - 06:15 PM Ruth Archer asks a valid question, mg: "If the KKK insisted on marching through Harlem, would you suggest that the black residents' response should be to chuck on hoods and put burning crosses on their own lawns?" In other words, just suck it up? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Have a Glorious Twelfth! (Drumcree Parade) From: GUEST,mg Date: 18 Jul 10 - 05:56 PM And furthermore I have the Dubliners singing Molly Malone on youtube right now so put that in your clay pipe and smoke it. mg |
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Subject: RE: BS: Have a Glorious Twelfth! (Drumcree Parade) From: GUEST,mg Date: 18 Jul 10 - 05:54 PM And furthermore, it is the height of bad manners according to my rulebook to insult someone's heritage, cliched or not. And who knows how much I engage with Irish American culture? I live in a place populated by Finns and I hope to make it to Finnfest next week. Sometimes all people have is little memories or little snippets. Sometimes their culture was stamped out. Sometimes they were too ashamed of aspects of it and denied it. Sometimes they married out of it. All sorts of reasons to not have the full throttle approved cultural heritage. Does not excuse insulting someone's heritage, broken and spotted as it might be. mg |
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Subject: RE: BS: Have a Glorious Twelfth! (Drumcree Parade) From: GUEST,mg Date: 18 Jul 10 - 05:47 PM I am so sorry to be cliched. My Irish American culture pretty much consisted of green jello and ice cream when you sliced it a shamrock showed up in the middle. I would wish for little Orange children the same type of ice cream..with a nice orange in the middle. mg |
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Subject: RE: BS: Have a Glorious Twelfth! (Drumcree Parade) From: John MacKenzie Date: 18 Jul 10 - 05:40 PM Aye it's terrible, these Americans talking about things they know nothing about :) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Have a Glorious Twelfth! (Drumcree Parade) From: Ruth Archer Date: 18 Jul 10 - 05:29 PM "If everyone showed such tolerance, the problems would vanish." On the contrary: if everyone showed such wilful and obtuse ignorance, the problems would only continue to be exacerbated. There's a reason why South Africa needed a Truth and Reconciliation process. Acknowledging past wrongs and finding a way through them is one thing; sweeping them under the carpet and insisting that everyone should just get along, when one community still insists on their right to triumphalist celebrations of subjugation, is ridiculous. mg is an American whose understanding of his/her own Irish-American St Patrick's Day celebrations are superficial and naive; his/her take on Orange marches are even more so. They cannot be understood by someone living in America who doesn't even engage with Irish American culture except on the most superficial and cliched level. Sorry. Loz said: "The Orange marches are insulting and hurtful to Northern Irish Catholics as they are inextricably linked to the repression and subjugation of Catholics by Protestants in the North and they are inextricably linked to violence and humilation. In this way they are comparable to the words Nigger and Paki, because those words were grown in the manure of racial violence and humiliation." Spot on. And that's why, mg, you can't solve the problem by everyone just tooting on their flutes. If the KKK insisted on marching through Harlem, would you suggest that the black residents' response should be to chuck on hoods and put burning crosses on their own lawns? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Have a Glorious Twelfth! (Drumcree Parade) From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 18 Jul 10 - 05:01 PM In case mg is deleted as a guest, he said, My post was not satire. Why should I have my rights to celebrate St. Patrick's day if I don't allow the same rights to others? And the more it is trivialized and everyone joins in and has a good time the better off everyone will be. If they are waving banners that say death to Catholics, then stop them from doing that. If they are just putting on their Sunday suits and playing accordians and rambling down the road, whether or not I like them, or like the music, or the drums give me a headache, or their ancestors did bad things to mine, I have to let them proceed and in fact I should find a way to join them peacefully if they don't mind...if, and this is a big if, they just remind me of past wrongs, and they are not intentionally doing anything bad presently but I just don't like what they are doing, it is my duty to suck it up. Avoid it. Make other plans for the couple of hours it takes place. And control any teenagers I might have bred. mg If everyone showed such tolerance, the problems would vanish. Jim said, "you have managed to have ignore the points made about the threatening nature of these marches.. Please explain why and how they threaten you. And what has Lewes got to do with Orange parades? -Joe Offer- |
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Subject: RE: BS: Have a Glorious Twelfth! (Drumcree Parade) From: GUEST,mg Date: 18 Jul 10 - 04:43 PM My post was not satire. Why should I have my rights to celebrate St. Patrick's day if I don't allow the same rights to others? And the more it is trivialized and everyone joins in and has a good time the better off everyone will be. If they are waving banners that say death to Catholics, then stop them from doing that. If they are just putting on their Sunday suits and playing accordians and rambling down the road, whether or not I like them, or like the music, or the drums give me a headache, or their ancestors did bad things to mine, I have to let them proceed and in fact I should find a way to join them peacefully if they don't mind...if, and this is a big if, they just remind me of past wrongs, and they are not intentionally doing anything bad presently but I just don't like what they are doing, it is my duty to suck it up. Avoid it. Make other plans for the couple of hours it takes place. And control any teenagers I might have bred. mg |
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Subject: RE: BS: Have a Glorious Twelfth! (Drumcree Parade) From: Jim Carroll Date: 18 Jul 10 - 03:11 PM I can accept what you say about the pope's effigy Alan, though it still gives offence - a Catholic friend who strayed down there one Bonfire Night (in the 70s) summed it up by saying that all that was missing was the hoods and white robes. That aside; the burning of an effigy of a gypsy caravan bearing the inscription "Diddys Out", goes to show how these things can be put to use by those who wish it. Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Have a Glorious Twelfth! (Drumcree Parade) From: Jim Carroll Date: 18 Jul 10 - 01:07 PM "People who want to be offended, will always find a reason." As will people who wish to give offence Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Have a Glorious Twelfth! (Drumcree Parade) From: John MacKenzie Date: 18 Jul 10 - 12:14 PM People who want to be offended, will always find a reason. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Have a Glorious Twelfth! (Drumcree Parade) From: GUEST,Allan C Date: 18 Jul 10 - 12:10 PM "I have always been disturbed by the 'good old country tradition' in Lewes of burning the Pope's effigy on Bonfire Night - and that's as an atheist." I understand it is not supposed to really be an effigy of the Pope per se - but rather an effigy of a particular Pope who was in office 400 years ago. They also have an effigy of Guy Fawkwes himself - as they do across Britain. The point is in Britain as a whole these things are looked on as traditions which commemorate evidents and conflicts of the distant past. Bonfire Night is commemorating the failure of an early 17thC terrorist attack which was going to be carried out by Catholic conspirators - however modern Bonfire Night isn't in itself anti-Catholic and certainly here in southern Scotland the Catholic kids celebrate it every bit as much as the Protestants do. Throughout most of Britain religious conflict and sectarianism is a thing of the dim and distant past and these festivities are just that innocent festivities. In Jedburgh where I used to live they play an annual game called Hand-Ba (ball) which is played through the town. By tradition (whether bunkum or not) it was originally played with the severed heads of English captives. That doesn't mean though that the modern game is anti-English in any way. Likewise the various local Common Ridings all contain elements of memory of conflicts with Englishmen. Hawick with Hornshole; Jedburgh with Redeswire; Coldstream and Selkirk with Flodden etc. It doesn't mean the modern participators and organisers are anti-English or that anyone would be offended! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Have a Glorious Twelfth! (Drumcree Parade) From: Jim Carroll Date: 18 Jul 10 - 12:07 PM Apologies Ruth - misdirected post which I hope reaches the intended recipient Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Have a Glorious Twelfth! (Drumcree Parade) From: Ebbie Date: 18 Jul 10 - 11:25 AM Ruth Archer needs no defense from me but: Jim Carroll, read her post again. She was citing a post from mg. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Have a Glorious Twelfth! (Drumcree Parade) From: Jim Carroll Date: 18 Jul 10 - 10:18 AM "We mess with other peoples' heritage at our peril" Sorry Ruth; you have managed to have ignore the points made about the threatening nature of these marches - apart from their historical role it is enough, as far as I am concerned to witness the three night of rioting on the street of Belfast they have already provoked - and the season has only just started. I have always been disturbed by the 'good old country tradition' in Lewes of burning the Pope's effigy on Bonfire Night - and that's as an atheist. I know how I would feel if I were a Catholic maybe it wouldn't upset you? I was not surprised when this added the nice touch of burning a Gypsy (or was it 'mumper's) caravan not so long ago. Oo-ar; yo can't beat these quaint old country customs, can ee. Jim Carroll |
