BS: Canuck criminal code... organized crime

Subject: BS: Canuck criminal code... organized crime
From: gnu
Date: 04 Aug 10 - 02:13 PM

Whaddya think?

Subject: RE: BS: Canuck criminal code... organized crime
From: GUEST,number 6
Date: 04 Aug 10 - 02:23 PM

I'm for it.

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: Canuck criminal code... organized crime
From: GUEST,999
Date: 04 Aug 10 - 02:29 PM

Me too, with the proviso that it equally applies to Members of Parliament.

Subject: RE: BS: Canuck criminal code... organized crime
From: GUEST,number 6
Date: 04 Aug 10 - 02:46 PM

Yer damned right 999 !

Subject: RE: BS: Canuck criminal code... organized crime
From: gnu
Date: 04 Aug 10 - 03:04 PM

Hahahahaaa! Good one 9.

Subject: RE: BS: Canuck criminal code... organized crime
From: Ed T
Date: 04 Aug 10 - 03:18 PM

There is definately a relationship between prostitution, drugs and organized crime.But, I fail to see the link with gambling.

Most of the gambling in Canada, is controlled and encouraged by governments. I suspect they wish to keep a firm grip on that cash cow.

In yesterday's news, Stockwell Day said that unreported crime was up in Canada. But, if crimes go unreported, how can anyone reasonably state that the figures are up, down or even the same?

Subject: RE: BS: Canuck criminal code... organized crime
From: GUEST,999
Date: 04 Aug 10 - 03:26 PM

Stockwell Day is a taco short of a combination plate.

Subject: RE: BS: Canuck criminal code... organized crime
From: gnu
Date: 04 Aug 10 - 03:35 PM

Ed... Doris is a dink.

Re the gambling... it's not so much the "illegal" gambling as it is the laundering of drug and prostitution and extortion money through the gambling.

Here in Moncton, many VLT's in pubs were rigged for medium payouts and lots of them. Peeps, mostly poor retirees from rural areas and peeps down on there luck or up on drugs were employed to gamble, collect and return part of the profit. I used to shoot pool at one such pub with my buddies and it amazed me how many times the SAME eldery peeps won hundreds and hundreds of $$$ in a few hours. One night, as I was warned by the keep to stay away for a few days, he explained it to me. The RCMP raided the place two days later.

The RCMP raided across NB and confiscated about a hundred VLTs and destroyed them. Then, they raided strip clubs. They went after the big guys buy couldn't touch them because their names were not on the properties and were only silent partners. The story goes on, but I am sure you get the pic.

Subject: RE: BS: Canuck criminal code... organized crime
From: gnu
Date: 04 Aug 10 - 03:37 PM

Cross posted there, 9.

Of course, I refer to the 22 Minutes referendum to force Stockwell to change his name to Doris. Got a lot more than the 350,000 signatures he suggested.

Subject: RE: BS: Canuck criminal code... organized crime
From: GUEST,999
Date: 04 Aug 10 - 03:42 PM

LOL, gnu.

Subject: RE: BS: Canuck criminal code... organized crime
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 04 Aug 10 - 03:46 PM

Laws that justly cover this have been on the books in Canada for 40 years as far as I know, probably longer. As it is presented in that article, its a circular argument. A gaming house obviously finances organized crime because it is organized crime. You can't commit these crimes without being organized. If Crown is able to prove that the bookies are using the proceeds to subsidize, murder, armed robbery or terrorism then the Crown can charge the bookie with conspiracy to commit those crimes.

Charge the Bookies with bookmaking and the Murderers with murder, and if a bookmaker conspires to murder charge him with conspiracy to murder. Otherwise it is simply guilt by association.

Obviously this announcement is a publicity stunt. If I were still in Canada I would write my MP and ask him to concentrate on real problems and not to spin his wheels on this nonsense.

Subject: RE: BS: Canuck criminal code... organized crime
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 04 Aug 10 - 03:50 PM

Obviously in the case about the money laundering that Gnu brought up, the charge would be running a gaming house and money laundering.

It is that simple. If the Crown can't prove the money laundering then they should not be able to charge with running a gaming house while knowing someone who the Crown suspects of being an organized criminal.

Subject: RE: BS: Canuck criminal code... organized crime
From: GUEST,999
Date: 04 Aug 10 - 03:51 PM

That`s too much like common sense, JtS.

Subject: RE: BS: Canuck criminal code... organized crime
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 04 Aug 10 - 03:58 PM

Sorry.....

Subject: RE: BS: Canuck criminal code... organized crime
From: gnu
Date: 04 Aug 10 - 04:25 PM

But, how do you get little old ladies from East Overshoe, New Brunswick to testify against their "income" when the government has been screwing them for years?

Are you saying that more ammo for the courts is bad? I haven't given the whole thing much thought yet, but I am just not following your logic yet, jTs.

Subject: RE: BS: Canuck criminal code... organized crime
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 04 Aug 10 - 04:38 PM

"Cheating while playing a game"

This could drastically transform professional sport... They'll never risk giving Canada a go at hosting the World Cup anyway!

Subject: RE: BS: Canuck criminal code... organized crime
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 04 Aug 10 - 04:43 PM

I am saying that the law as presented is allowing for the punishment of offenders for crimes that the Crown has not proved.

Lets say that a Crown Attorney has the mentality of Sarah Palin and wants to persecute her brother in law for alleged wrongs to her sister.

Lets say that she can prove that he ran the office super bowl pool. Under this law, as presented in the article she can use the provision that gambling funds organized crime and she can prosecute him as an organized criminal.

In an ideal world, ie current Canadian law, she would have to prove his association with specific criminals and moreover prove that he actually funded specific illegal activities to convict him.

I am a firm believer of punishing people for what we can prove they are guilty of, no more, no less.

Subject: RE: BS: Canuck criminal code... organized crime
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 04 Aug 10 - 04:46 PM

Please note that in the above example the brother in can can justly be charged with running the office pool. It is the automatic association with "Organized Crime" that bothers me.

Crime is crime "Organized" or not. Charge the guy with the crimes you can prove he committed.

Subject: RE: BS: Canuck criminal code... organized crime
From: Ed T
Date: 04 Aug 10 - 04:57 PM

"Are you saying that more ammo for the courts is bad"

What many folks are saying is that scaring folks into believing that crime is worse than it is, and then coming forward with non-needed laws to fight the non existing crime is mostly a vote getting tactic. Political folks have 'oft been using this tactic when it seems an election is on the horizon....that is when they seem to think they can grasp a majority from the poorly organized opposition.

What do you think of that theory?

Subject: RE: BS: Canuck criminal code... organized crime
From: bobad
Date: 04 Aug 10 - 05:15 PM

I agree with you Ed T. I feel the Conservative/Reform Party is pandering to a misinformed segment of the population whose views on the prevalence of crime in Canada is skewed by a sensationalism oriented media and right wing radio hosts who have a tendency to overplay horrific crimes. All the statistics point to a significant downward crime trend in the last 10 years.

More ammo for the courts = more convictions = more incarcerations = more prisons (the existing ones are seriously overcrowded). This formula is popular with our neighbours to the south and we all know about crime rates down there.

Subject: RE: BS: Canuck criminal code... organized crime
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 04 Aug 10 - 05:50 PM

>>that is when they seem to think they can grasp a majority from the poorly organized opposition.<<

If only the opposition were as organized as the crime. :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Canuck criminal code... organized crime
From: Ed T
Date: 04 Aug 10 - 06:12 PM

While there has been illegal localized gambling through organized sources in the past, I suspect this has mostly been replacdes by legalized gambling set up through governments. VLTs and Casinos can now be easily found and sourced, where one can voluntarily contribute to the tax base, and make a few of the governments friends rich at the same time. A win-win situation for those governing us.

Subject: RE: BS: Canuck criminal code... organized crime
From: gnu
Date: 04 Aug 10 - 06:21 PM

"Lets say that she can prove that he ran the office super bowl pool."

Well, now, let's not go overboard there, sailor. There are many laws on the books that could be interpreted in a "specific manner" that would never be enforced in court in such a manner.

They COULD be, but, only if you are one bad bastard that SHOULD be in jail and don't have enough money to buy your way out.

Subject: RE: BS: Canuck criminal code... organized crime
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 04 Aug 10 - 06:39 PM

I agree Gnu but why put a law open to that kind of abuse.

If you CAN convict him of gambling and CANNOT convict him of funding or conspiring in worse crimes then gambling is all that he should be punished for.

Writing a law that allows for punishment for association rather than a specific crime is unfair and in my humble opinion goes against Canadian values.

That is all that I am saying.

Subject: RE: BS: Canuck criminal code... organized crime
From: gnu
Date: 04 Aug 10 - 06:46 PM

Good point. But, if it's illegal, it's illegal. If the punishment is slight, there is less deterrence.

In other words, the laws proposed would make the offense less attractive or "profitable", and make it more difficult for organized crime to subjugate young people in prostitution, drugs and extortion.

Subject: RE: BS: Canuck criminal code... organized crime
From: GUEST,999
Date: 05 Aug 10 - 05:49 PM

`Good point. But, if it's illegal, it's illegal. If the punishment is slight, there is less deterrence.`

No offence, gnu, but I have yet to see the degree of punishment deter any crimes. Hell, the problem is that we don`t enforce the laws we HAVE on the books. To me, this is bullshit coming from a Conservative government who are carrying on from Stockwell Day`s brilliant statement (which in some ways reminds me of Nixon`s silent majority campaign): It`s the crimes that have been unreported that keep the crime stats up there. Uh huh! I need drugs. Then, if two folks agree with me guess what--that`s right, it`s a criminal conspiracy. FAWK. When I see some RICO cases in the courts, then I`ll believe it. So far, all I see is a government that blew $1.2 billion and left the taxpayers a million dollar lake by way of thanks. It`s this kinda shit that got floated in the US and the result was the DHS. Anyway, hope you`re doing well after missing the lottery by only six numbers.

Subject: RE: BS: Canuck criminal code... organized crime
From: gnu
Date: 05 Aug 10 - 06:37 PM

I suppose so, 9. But, any progress is good, even if debatable.

BTW, I didn't even have the boneass number. Buy another ticket I guess.

Subject: RE: BS: Canuck criminal code... organized crime
From: gnu
Date: 06 Aug 10 - 02:21 PM

Got me a ticket for tonight. Bought it with someone else, so I'll only get half of the $50M but I'll squeak by on it.

Subject: RE: BS: Canuck criminal code... organized crime
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 06 Aug 10 - 11:47 PM

In other words, the laws proposed would make the offense less attractive or "profitable", and make it more difficult for organized crime to subjugate young people in prostitution, drugs and extortion.

I don't think so.

I think it simply allows the government to call a bookie a pimp or a pusher even when he has done neither.

I think 999's comparison to DHS and by extension the Patriot Act is on the money. It look like a way for the government to bypass constitutional due process in the name of "Justice."