BS: So little empathy for Pakistan?

Subject: BS: So little empathy for Pakistan?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 11 Aug 10 - 06:49 AM

I have heard (but cannot cite) several reports that charitable donations have been slow to come for the 14 million who have seen their homes and livelihoods destroyed and members of their families killed by the extraordinary floods in Pakistan.

I wonder why that might be.

Subject: RE: BS: So little empathy for Pakistan?
From: theleveller
Date: 11 Aug 10 - 07:02 AM

I suspect that it might be 'compassion fatigue' especially when people are worried about the economic situation at home.

Subject: RE: BS: So little empathy for Pakistan?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 11 Aug 10 - 07:52 AM

My suspicion was that in so many western eyes the whole of Pakistan has been tarred as terrorist.

Subject: RE: BS: So little empathy for Pakistan?
From: bobad
Date: 11 Aug 10 - 08:03 AM

I put this question to Tarek Fatah a Canadian of Pakistani origin he is an activist, writer, broadcaster and founder of the Canadian Muslim Congress.

    Will the countries which mobilized the flotillas of humanitarian aid for their Muslim brothers in Gaza do the same for the beleaguered people of Pakistan who have been left homeless, hungry and battling disease due to the flooding caused by the monsoon rains?

This is his reply:

    "I doubt it very much; we are too dark-skinned to deserve a flotilla. So, in exchange, Our 'brothers' have sent us tonnes of 'prayers' and 'chants' along with the consignment of AK-47s, an arsenal of IDU components and clerics to pray for the dead.".

Subject: RE: BS: So little empathy for Pakistan?
From: theleveller
Date: 11 Aug 10 - 08:11 AM

It would seem that Islamic charities are leading the aid efforts but the Taliban is urging the rejection of foreign aid.

http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSTRE66T3RS20100811

This would be a good opportunity for western countries to fight the Taliban influence by giving aid.

Subject: RE: BS: So little empathy for Pakistan?
From: Greg F.
Date: 11 Aug 10 - 08:29 AM

This would be a good opportunity for western countries to fight the Taliban influence by giving aid.

Don't hold your breath- the U.S. is too busy "winning hearts & minds" in Afghanistan.

Subject: RE: BS: So little empathy for Pakistan?
From: Arthur_itus
Date: 11 Aug 10 - 08:34 AM

Where will the money truly go and who can you trust to ensure that it is implemeneted properly and effectively?

Aren't Westerners at grave risk going into that area?

very difficult situation and it is very very sad.

I am surprised that the Pakistan cricket team have not gone back home. Surely some of those players must be affected by it all and must be worried sick.

Subject: RE: BS: So little empathy for Pakistan?
From: Emma B
Date: 11 Aug 10 - 08:45 AM

'Will the countries which mobilized the flotillas of humanitarian aid for their Muslim brothers in Gaza do the same for the beleaguered people of Pakistan who have been left homeless, hungry and battling disease due to the flooding caused by the monsoon rains?'

Of course they will - as they also did for the estimated 2,000 to 3,000 Christians in Gaza also suffering under the blockade
What an appallingly leading and implicitly anti - Islam question to ask!

Wednesday, 11 August 2010

"35 tons of humanitarian aid, consisting of food packages, blankets, sleeping bags and beds, was sent to Pakistan by a Turkish Airlines cargo plane last Friday.

A second cargo plane is expected from Turkey to Pakistan on Wednesday evening."
Turkish press release

Ireland, the point of departure of the MV Rachel Corrie although in economic crisis, reports

"The Government today announced €550,000 in additional humanitarian aid for Pakistan. This is on top of €200,000 in funding which was released immediately after the flooding, bringing to €750,000 the total which the Government is providing to alleviate the crisis.

The aid is being allocated to Concern, Trócaire and the United Nations Office for the Coordination of Humanitarian Affairs."
9 August, 2010

Also represented on the Rachel Corrie...

"Kuala Lumpur, Aug 5: The Malaysian government has pledged to contribute US$1 million (RM3.17 million) to the Pakistan government as humanitarian aid in the wake of the flood disaster that has hit several parts of Pakistan since July 22.

The Foreign Ministry of Malaysia said that the aid was a manifestation of the Malaysian government and the people of Malaysia's concern and sympathies to the government and people of Pakistan over the loss of lives and destruction of infrastructure and property as a result of the disaster."


Channel 4 News foreign affairs correspondent Jonathan Miller describes a week ago the siutuation in the badly hit nillages in Upper Swat and Kashmir and the very real difficulties of getting aid through
The forgotten victims of Nowshera

Subject: RE: BS: So little empathy for Pakistan?
From: artbrooks
Date: 11 Aug 10 - 08:54 AM

This from CNN.com:

U.S. emergency relief teams continued to arrive in Peshawar to help, the U.S. State Department said. The U.S. Agency for International Development has committed $55 million in aid to international organizations and nongovernmental organizations, it said. The United States has provided more than 435,000 meals. This assistance is in addition to U.S. military efforts, which include rescue airlifts, food supplies and other deliveries provided by the Pentagon.

Of the total, $20 million will be used to expand humanitarian operations farther south as the flood zone expands, Mark Ward, acting director of the Office of Foreign Disaster Assistance, told reporters Tuesday.

Islamic militants, however, called on the Pakistani government to reject any aid provided by the United States for flood relief. "For the sake of God, don't accept donations from the U.S. because they are our enemies," said Azem Tariq, spokesman for Pakistan Taliban. "Whatever amount the U.S. will give as donation, we will give the government of Pakistan more."

Subject: RE: BS: So little empathy for Pakistan?
From: bobad
Date: 11 Aug 10 - 09:37 AM

"What an appallingly leading and implicitly anti - Islam question to ask!"

How you can construe my question as being anti-Muslim is beyond me, but I am not too surprised seeing as how the accusation is made by someone who still believes that the Gaza flotilla was about humanitarian aid.

Subject: RE: BS: So little empathy for Pakistan?
From: Emma B
Date: 11 Aug 10 - 09:49 AM

The worst tragedy IMO about this tragic natural disaster is the attempts to view humanitarian aid as a political tool

As art posted the spokesman for Tehrik-i-Taliban Pakistan, the main Taliban militant umbrella group in Pakistan primarily in conflict with the central government, is reported to have said

"We condemn American and other foreign aid and believe that it will lead to subjugation.
Our jihad against America will continue," "The government should not accept American aid and if it happens, we can give $20 million to them as aid for the flood victims,
"We will ourselves distribute relief under leadership of our chief Hakimullah Mehsud among the people, if the government assures us that none of our members will be arrested."
-Azam Tariq a spokesman for the group, reported by the AFP news agency.

Meanwhile American concerns about other extremist groups providing aid to needy Pakistanis were addressed by Daniel Feldman, a senior US State Department official working on Afghanistan and Pakistan as "quite overblown".

However referring to US efforts to win public support in a country where anti-American feeling runs high, Mark Ward, acting director of the US Office of Foreign Disaster Assistance, said the US government tries to "brand as much as possible" of its aid.
For example, US helicopters and other military assets delivering aid "show the flag," while plastic sheeting sent by the US Agency for International Development is stamped with "from the American people," he added

Yesterday the Guardian reported

"Oxfam said the UN's financial tracking system showed that as of August 9, governments had committed less than $45m, with an additional $91m pledged – considerably less money than was collected for previous disaster relief efforts over a similar period. India, Pakistan's much larger and wealthier neighbour, has not offered any aid or assistance at all.

It was confirmed today that India, Pakistan's historical foe and close neighbour, has offered no help so far and apparently has no plans to do so. A spokeswoman for the Indian High Commission in London said: "No decision has been taken so far on providing aid or assistance."

Subject: RE: BS: So little empathy for Pakistan?
From: bobad
Date: 11 Aug 10 - 09:53 AM

"The worst tragedy IMO about this tragic natural disaster is the attempts to view humanitarian aid as a political tool"

Exactly, as is also USING humanitarian aid as a political tool.

Subject: RE: BS: So little empathy for Pakistan?
From: bobad
Date: 11 Aug 10 - 10:05 AM

Pakistan flood response not enough, aid bodies say

Aid agencies in Pakistan have warned that many more people will die as floods inundate southern areas unless more international help comes.

The United Nations is to launch a fresh appeal on Wednesday to help 14 million people affected by the deluge.

It says that so far about 1,600 people have been killed.

The UK charity, Oxfam, has described the floods as a "mega disaster" which require a "mega response". It says that so far that has not been forthcoming.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-south-asia-10935824

Subject: RE: BS: So little empathy for Pakistan?
From: Maurice Mann
Date: 11 Aug 10 - 10:44 AM

If Pakistan can afford nuclear weapons then it can afford to look after its own

Subject: RE: BS: So little empathy for Pakistan?
From: Emma B
Date: 11 Aug 10 - 11:01 AM

"More than 44 foreign governments and international organisations have offered aid to help with the Hurricane Katrina relief effort.
Sri Lanka and Indonesia, who were recipients of US assistance after the tsunami, were among the list of potential donors."

BBC News report Friday, 2 September 2005

Well damn! Whatever were they thinking of?

Subject: RE: BS: So little empathy for Pakistan?
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 11 Aug 10 - 11:17 AM

There are also major disasters occurring in China (landslides) and Russia (forest and peat fires). A meteorologist stated on the radio this morning that all of these catastrophes are related to changes in the jet stream. He also reminded us of predictions which have been made about climate change i.e. that it is likely to lead to more extreme weather events - although he was careful not to explicitly attribute these present disasters to climate change. In addition events such as flooding and landslides can be exacerbated by changes to rivers and drainage systems and deforestation.

When I mentioned these things at a dinner party the other night I was subjected to an astonishing outburst of hysterical anger. Apparently the only appropriate response is pity for child victims (the implication being that in wanting to get to the root causes of such suffering I don't feel pity for child victims!).

In spite of billions of words devoted to it the environment is still the 'elephant in the room'. Standby for more disasters and catastrophes.

Subject: RE: BS: So little empathy for Pakistan?
From: Emma B
Date: 11 Aug 10 - 02:04 PM

Perhaps you could persuade your dining companions to watch this Shimrod?

The Empathic Civilisation

Subject: RE: BS: So little empathy for Pakistan?
From: Lox
Date: 11 Aug 10 - 02:23 PM

Bobad,

You posted your sources opinion of what the flotilla people might or might not be doing on another thread ages ago.

In response, I posted a link of exactly what IHH did in response to the Pakistan disaster.


The insinuation of your post is that IHH are politicized and anti Israel and that they don't care about the suffering elsewhere, only in palestine.


You repeat this insinuation despite having been shown that IHH are in fact active in Pakistan, just as they were active in Haiti etc etc etc.


Your post (repeated despite you knowing that it is wrong) also insinuates that Moslems don't care about helping the poor, they only use helping the poor as an excuse to support hatred of Israel.


Well bobad, here's 2 questions.


How is IHH's help in Haiti politicized?

How is IHH's help in Pakistan politicized?

Is it inconsistent for IHH to help people in Haiti, Pakistan and Gaza?



You continue to be mendacious in the extreme.

You do so despite knowing that your insinuation is wrong.


You smear and mislead deliberately.


And now you hide behind someone elses words so you can avoid responsibility for your dishonesty.


Get a life fascist.

Subject: RE: BS: So little empathy for Pakistan?
From: bobad
Date: 11 Aug 10 - 04:50 PM

Ah lox, I see you are bringing your hot air routine to this thread now after having made a laughing stock of yourself in the other thread with your pathetically feeble attempt to discredit the Landes videos and leaving with your tail between your legs.

And I see you haven't lost your penchant for ad hominem attacks -enjoy yourself but wipe the spittle from the corners of your mouth.

Subject: RE: BS: So little empathy for Pakistan?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 11 Aug 10 - 05:01 PM

The much needed help from outside in such cases should, in my opinion, all be controlled by the U.N., with each member nation contributing according to its means.

Subject: RE: BS: So little empathy for Pakistan?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 11 Aug 10 - 05:01 PM

What's IHH, Lox? Some of us don't speak in acronyms
...and what are the Landes videos, Bobad?

Oh, and please don't fight.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: So little empathy for Pakistan?
From: bobad
Date: 11 Aug 10 - 05:10 PM

Joe here is a link http://mudcat.org/thread.cfm?threadid=131208&messages=420&page=3&desc=yes#2961254 to the post on the Landes videos. If you follow the discussion following this post there is a link to another one.

Regarding the IHH this is a post I was addressing to lox:

"IHH, which plays a central role in organizing the flotilla to the Gaza Strip, is a Turkish humanitarian relief fund with a radical Islamic anti-Western orientation. Besides its legitimate philanthropic activities, it supports radical Islamic networks, including Hamas, and at least in the past, even global jihad elements."
        
http://www.terrorism-info.org.il/malam_multimedia/English/eng_n/html/hamas_e105.htm

And yes, the source is Jewish so I know you will discredit it on that basis rather than on the content but that's your bigotry.

Subject: RE: BS: So little empathy for Pakistan?
From: GUEST,999
Date: 11 Aug 10 - 05:30 PM

The Israelis caused it.

Subject: RE: BS: So little empathy for Pakistan?
From: mousethief
Date: 11 Aug 10 - 05:34 PM

And yes, the source is Jewish so I know you will discredit it on that basis rather than on the content but that's your bigotry.

My aren't you the open-minded one.

Subject: RE: BS: So little empathy for Pakistan?
From: Don Firth
Date: 11 Aug 10 - 05:42 PM

(I think I'll just stay the hell out of this thread. . . .)

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: So little empathy for Pakistan?
From: bobad
Date: 11 Aug 10 - 05:42 PM

I'm speaking from experience.

Subject: RE: BS: So little empathy for Pakistan?
From: Emma B
Date: 11 Aug 10 - 05:43 PM

I think it might be preferable (or less 'bigoted' - not MY terminology!) to quote a more independent source for information about The Foundation for Human Rights and Freedoms and Humanitarian Relief or IHH

Wiki desribes it as -

"a Turkish NGO active in more than 100 countries.
Established in 1992 and officially registered in Istanbul in 1995, IHH provides humanitarian relief in areas of war, earthquake, hunger, and conflict.
The IHH holds Special Consultative Status with the United Nations Economic and Social Council since 2004

The IHH provides social aid, Muslim cultural aid, educational aid, sanitary aid, emergency aid programs in 120 countries.

It provides health care and water wells in Africa and runs the Africa Cataract Project, begun in 2007, in ten African countries.
IHH has made it possible for thousands of people who are suffering from cataracts but who do not have the economic means to be treated to see again. IHH built 1174 water wells in Africa.

IHH sent two cargo planes to Haiti with 33 tons of humanitarian aid supplies after the 2010 Haiti earthquake"

In 2008, Israel became the only country to ban the organization

Despite Israeli claims that the organization had contacts with 'links to terrorism networks, including al-Qaida' in the 1990s, the IHH, unlike Hamas, is not among some 45 groups listed by the U.S. State Department as terror organizations.

In the war-ravaged Gaza neighborhood of Izbet Abed Rabbo, IHH is building a three-story apartment block for families made homeless during the Gaza war. The $250,000 project provides jobs for 100 people.

Subject: RE: BS: So little empathy for Pakistan?
From: bobad
Date: 11 Aug 10 - 05:46 PM

"to quote a more independent source"

Read non-Jewish

Subject: RE: BS: So little empathy for Pakistan?
From: Emma B
Date: 11 Aug 10 - 06:00 PM

The source you quote bobad is The Intelligence and Terrorism Information Center (ITIC) - an Israeli-based non-governmental organization with close ties to the Israel Defense Forces.

This is not particularly 'independent' as it states unambiguously it is 'dedicated to the memory of the fallen of the ISRAELI Intelligence Community'

Once more you conflate criticism of the Israeli government and the IDF with anti Jewish 'bigotry' despite the fact that many such critics are themselves Jewish.

Now can we please return this thread to the crisis in Pakistan.

Subject: RE: BS: So little empathy for Pakistan?
From: bobad
Date: 11 Aug 10 - 06:10 PM

"The source you quote bobad is The Intelligence and Terrorism Information Center (ITIC) - an Israeli-based non-governmental organization with close ties to the Israel Defense Forces."

And of course everything they say is a lie. Can you inform us on who wrote the Wiki article?

Subject: RE: BS: So little empathy for Pakistan?
From: Emma B
Date: 11 Aug 10 - 06:30 PM

'And of course everything they say is a lie'

I have not said this - just that they have clearly stated ties to the IDF and the Israeli 'Intelligence community' - it is up to the reader to make up their own mind about any bias in their description of this charitable and legal organization.

As for Wiki - well the atatements are well referenced and come from a variety of sources (including the ITIC themselves, various press articles etc) - again the reader can check each of these out and reach their own conclusions as to any possible bias in reporting.

NOW can we please return this thread to the crisis in Pakistan?

Subject: RE: BS: So little empathy for Pakistan?
From: Lox
Date: 11 Aug 10 - 07:37 PM

IHH is the Turkish humanitarian aid organization who were transporting aid into Gaza when they were attacked by the IDF.

They were described by The Israeli Government and by Bobad and others as being a terrorist organization.

Bobad first posted the following comment on August 3rd:

Link to post

"I put this question to Tarek Fatah, activist, writer, broadcaster and founder of the Canadian Muslim Congress. This is his reply: "I doubt it very much; we are too dark-skinned to deserve a flotilla. So, in exchange, Our 'brothers' have sent us tonnes of 'prayers' and 'chants' along with the consignment of AK-47s, an arsenal of IDU components and clerics to pray for the dead."."

In doing so, he insinuates that Muslims motivated to assist in the humanitarian crisis in Gaza, namely IHH, don't care about the suffering of residents living there, but only about scoring political points against Israel.

In response, I posted the following link showing that IHH are in fact involved in the relief effort in Pakistan.

Link

There is at least one other article on the IHH website on the subject of the relief they have provided.


Bobad has seen this evidence but deliberately overlooked it and posted the same slur again anyway on this thread in order to hijack it to promote his personal agenda that Moslems only provide relief when its suits their political motivation - that being to score points against Israel.



Bobad has read my position on the Israel/Palestine conflict very clearly and knows, as does anyone else who can read, that I condemn Hamas, the rockets and Palestinian aggression just as I condemn Israeli Aggression and murder of humanitarian aid workers.

But Bobad deliberately also lies about my position and speaks in the same smug terms as the BNP posters who pollute this site with their filth.

Bobad, IHH work all over the world providing humanitarian aid.

They provide it where it is needed.

But you don't care about that, you only care about repeating the same lie again and again no metter how many times it is shown to be untrue.


You started a thread not Long ago about atrocities other than those involving Israel.

Well here is one!

This one is about Pakistan!


Yet your first post has brought it straight back to the Israel/Palestine conflict.

A hypocrite has been caught red handed.

Talking of videos, the video you posted on your 'non-Israeli atrocity' thread as a starting pont turned out to be banned on youtube within an hour of you pposting it.

Why?

Because it was deliberately misleading inflammatory propaganda.

Something you revel in.

Your input here is wholly poisonous.

Subject: RE: BS: So little empathy for Pakistan?
From: Lox
Date: 11 Aug 10 - 07:50 PM

Just in case you missed that last little Gem,


Bobad started a thread not Long ago about atrocities other than those involving Israel.

He felt that a disproportionate amount of time was spent discussing the Israel/Palestine conflict when there are many other atrocities going on in the world that noone argues about.

The Insinuation is that noone cares about other atrocities, only Israeli atrocities, and that therefore they hate Israel.


Well here is a thread about a humanitarian disaster in Pakistan!


So why has Bobads first post has brought it straight back to the Israel/Palestine conflict?


Before that point, the subject remained "Pakistan"


It seems to me that Bobad is only interested in commenting on threads if they are about Israel.

Subject: RE: BS: So little empathy for Pakistan?
From: bobad
Date: 11 Aug 10 - 08:21 PM

You know what lox, all the informed muslims that I am in regular contact with, to a person, know that the IHH and the Gaza flotilla was a complete charade and are quite fond of making mocking jokes about it. I am sure that they would be amused at the sanctimonious postings of the sympathizers here.

May I recommend a book to you that may ease your burden:The Jew Is Not My Enemy:Unveiling The Myths That Fuel Muslim Anti-Semitism

Subject: RE: BS: So little empathy for Pakistan?
From: Lox
Date: 11 Aug 10 - 08:26 PM

"And yes, the source is Jewish so I know you will discredit it on that basis rather than on the content but that's your bigotry. "



So lets summarize your position on this thread:


... Moslems use humanitarian aid as a political tool and if you question that information you are a bigot ...


... Wow ...


Now I know what a man sucking his own dick looks like.

Subject: RE: BS: So little empathy for Pakistan?
From: bobad
Date: 11 Aug 10 - 08:41 PM

"Moslems use humanitarian aid as a political tool"

I make a distinction between Muslims and Islamists - if you don't know the difference is I suggest you do some research.

Subject: RE: BS: So little empathy for Pakistan?
From: artbrooks
Date: 11 Aug 10 - 08:43 PM

Do you know the distinction between Jewish and Israel?

Subject: RE: BS: So little empathy for Pakistan?
From: bobad
Date: 11 Aug 10 - 08:55 PM

"Do you know the distinction between Jewish and Israel?"

One is an adjective, the other a noun?

Subject: RE: BS: So little empathy for Pakistan?
From: Bobert
Date: 11 Aug 10 - 09:40 PM

Well, the reason that there isn't this out pouring of aid, especially from the USA, goes back to George Bush's "You're either with us or you're with the terrorist"... Seems that polorized statement struck home in all the worst ways... We have Tea Party racists who are saying that not another single mosque, regardless of wheteher its going to be 2 blocks from Ground Zero or in Milwalkee, should not be allowed to be built... We have righties wanting to tunr back the clock on Affirmative Action... We have righties wanting to tunr back the clock on Roe V. Wade which, when looked at carefully, was about equal access to abortions... Most white women never had any problems gettin' them...

I mean, this is all about a wrong headed war between Christianity and Islam... There shouldn't be a war but Bush and bin Laden got it goin' real well and now the Tea Party and the Taliban are carryin' it forward...

Here's my idea... Why not just send the Tea Party folks over to Afganistan to deal with the Taliban and vice versa... Leave the rest of us alone and guess what... After a few years when folks are being flooded out people won't be askin' what relgion they believe in???

Geeeee, what a concept???

B~

Subject: RE: BS: So little empathy for Pakistan?
From: Emma B
Date: 12 Aug 10 - 06:52 AM

In an attempt to return this thread to the situation in Pakistan away from the remark I found so offensive in artfully imputing racism to a Muslim charity - the opinion that humanitarian aid would not be forthcoming to flood victims from an international charity because

"I doubt it very much; we are too dark-skinned to deserve a flotilla"

despite the knowledge that the charity is active both in Africa and Pakistan

I would like to pick up on an earlier post from Shimrod

In November last year an article in Illegal-Logging Info looked at the situation in Pakistan

Timber mafia poses ecological concerns

"The federal and provincial governments of Pakistan are looking elsewhere while an illegal tree cutting campaign is being carried out on a mass level along the canal banks and in the riverine forests in Sindh, ignoring the fact that these trees not only strengthen the canal embankments but also provide fodder for the livestock and wildlife as well as maintaining the ecology balance in the province."

On 5th august The Guardian carried an article that

Pakistan's floods are not just a natural disaster

"In the last few years, environmental groups, activists and journalists have talked repeatedly of the power of the timber mafia, which has a particularly strong hold on the areas now affected by flooding.
One of the most powerful and ruthless organisations within Pakistan, the timber mafia engages in illegal logging, which is estimated to be worth billions of rupees each year – the group's connection to politicians at the local and federal level has been commented on in the media for years.
The constant warnings about the timber mafia almost always include mention of the increased susceptibility of de-forested regions to flooding, landslides and soil erosion. But, in the way that horror tends to pile on horror in Pakistan, not only has the flooding been intense in areas where the timber mafia is active but the felled trees, hidden in ravines prior to smuggling them onwards, have caused havoc. Dislodged by torrents of water, they have swept away bridges and people and anything else in their path.

That the timber mafia reportedly gave active support to the Pakistan Taliban when they controlled Swat seems to have done nothing to diminish their influence with the state.
Corruption transcends political difference.
Where action is taken against the timber mafia it is often in the form of local villagers coming out to defend their trees. Pakistan's citizens, time and again, find it falls to them to fill in the vacuum where there should be a state."


The failure of ANY government to react swiftly and effectively to a disaster and the plight of its citizens is, however, neither new nor restricted to the 'developing world' but it is no excuse to withhold compassion and assistance while also looking at the underlying factors that contribute to the scale of the disaster.

Subject: RE: BS: So little empathy for Pakistan?
From: Stu
Date: 12 Aug 10 - 07:02 AM

And that's not the half of it. Deforestation in the upper reaches of the Brahmaputra is threatening flooding in India and Bangladesh. In fact, a Bangladeshi acquaintance of mine told me there are big concerns in his country that India are considering altering the flow of the river to irrigate land in it's own country.

Subject: RE: BS: So little empathy for Pakistan?
From: bobad
Date: 12 Aug 10 - 08:56 AM

Enemies Race to Offer Flood Aid in Pakistan

Peshawar. When torrential rains flooded Pakistan and sparked the country's worst-ever humanitarian crisis, hard line Islamic charities moved fast. Faster even than the government.

Banned in Pakistan and on a UN terror list, Jamaat-ud-Dawa is one of a number of Islamic organizations that have been highly visible in the battle to help provide relief to millions of survivors.

Filling a void created by the perceived failure of the civilian government to mobilize, fears are growing in the United States that such charities are using soft power to propagate extremism in the nuclear-armed state.

Pakistan's Taliban have now urged the government to reject American aid in favor of $20 million of Taliban aid. There was no indication that the militia can or will pay, but the battle for hearts and minds has been drawn.

http://www.thejakartaglobe.com/world/enemies-race-to-offer-flood-aid-in-pakistan/390740

Subject: RE: BS: So little empathy for Pakistan?
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 12 Aug 10 - 10:59 AM

Thanks for your recent posts, Emma B. You've given me much food for thought and confirmed my suspicions.

I had no idea that the illegal logging situation in Pakistan was so bad ... but it doesn't surprise me!

Subject: RE: BS: So little empathy for Pakistan?
From: Lox
Date: 12 Aug 10 - 12:44 PM

Bobad Says,


"I make a distinction between Muslims and Islamists"


I see.


This is interesting, because until you said that, you had only referred to Muslims.


It can be deduced therefore that your criticism was not against Islamists, but against Moslems in General.


Otherwise, being so clear on the distinction, you would have levelled your criticisms at Islamists.


Could it be that you understand the distinction less clearly than you would like us to believe?.

Subject: RE: BS: So little empathy for Pakistan?
From: Emma B
Date: 12 Aug 10 - 05:52 PM

re the OP Richard's second post

Date: 11 Aug 10 - 07:52 AM

'My suspicion was that in so many western eyes the whole of Pakistan has been tarred as terrorist'

I think this also has some validity

In the aftermath of the Mumbai terror attacks, top US officials reportedly told a group of Indian CEOs that Washington recongnises Pakistan as "hot bed of terrorism which needs to be controlled".
The delegation met Jim Steinberg, the Deputy Secretary of State at the Foggy Bottom headquarters of State Department.
At the White House they also met Lawrence Summers, Director of the National Economic Council and Michael Froman, Deputy Assistant to the US President Barack Obama and Deputy National Security Adviser.

John L. Esposito, Professor of Religion and International Affairs at Georgetown University poses the question in Tuesday's Huffington Post

Islamophobia: A Threat to American Values?

"The legacy of the 9/11 and post 9/11 terrorist attacks has been exploited by media commentators, hard-line Christian Zionists and political candidates whose fear-mongering targets Islam and Muslims. Islamophobia is fast becoming for Muslims what anti-Semitism is for Jews.
Rooted in hostility and intolerance towards religious and cultural beliefs and a religious or racial group, it threatens the democratic fabric of American and European societies.
Like anti-Semites and racists, Islamophobes are the first to protest that their stereotyping and scapegoating of these "others" as a threat to all of us, incapable of integration or loyalty, are not Islamophobic.

There is no lack of hate speech in the media and in print to empower Islamophobia. The media, whose primary driver is sales and circulations, caters to explosive, headline events

Political and religious commentators write and speak out publicly about Islam and Muslims, asserting with impunity what would never appear in mainstream broadcast or print media about Jews, Christians and other established ethnic groups. If one takes out the word "Muslim" and substitutes "Jew" or "Catholic" in many of the articles targeting Muslims, the negative public reaction would be monumental"

Subject: RE: BS: So little empathy for Pakistan?
From: Sandy Mc Lean
Date: 12 Aug 10 - 10:24 PM

Sometimes I wonder if religion is the root of all evil. I do not believe that it is but none make much effort to dispel my fear!

Subject: RE: BS: So little empathy for Pakistan?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 13 Aug 10 - 04:07 PM

Between the US military destruction of Afghanistan, and the economic and torrential destruction of Pakistan I fear a large crucible could be forming.

Subject: RE: BS: So little empathy for Pakistan?
From: Lox
Date: 13 Aug 10 - 04:26 PM

Well Richard, I don't see it as a part of the world that is full of optimism for the future, much less the joys and prosperity of the new world order.

Subject: RE: BS: So little empathy for Pakistan?
From: Teribus
Date: 14 Aug 10 - 02:58 AM

Between the US military destruction of Afghanistan

Perhaps Richard you could enlighten us - What US military destruction of Afghanistan?

Subject: RE: BS: So little empathy for Pakistan?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 14 Aug 10 - 03:35 AM

Er - just who bombed Afghanistan back into the stone age?

Subject: RE: BS: So little empathy for Pakistan?
From: skarpi
Date: 14 Aug 10 - 03:41 AM

well Iceland is bankrupt...but still we are sending money and
I think food to Pakistan .....from Icelandic Red Cross
we also have about 22 people in Haiti doctors and nurses ....

there are lot of human beings there , who have no contact what so ever to taliban.....

Subject: RE: BS: So little empathy for Pakistan?
From: bobad
Date: 14 Aug 10 - 08:50 AM

Pakistan celebrates its Independence Day today, but the nation is sinking in a flood of Biblical proportions, something this world has not seen before. 20 million people are affected, homeless, hungry and on the move. 40 degrees temperatures, cholera, snake and scorpion bites are taking a toll. Please help. The Canadian government has announced another 30 million dollars. What can you give? Please be generous. This is a catastrophe of unimaginable proportions. Every dollar counts. Choose the red Cross or UNICEF, but the IDRF is a reputable Canadian agency with roots in Pakistan. Remember, if it does not hurt, you haven't given enough.

IDRF Web Site

IDRF Donation Form

Subject: RE: BS: So little empathy for Pakistan?
From: Lox
Date: 15 Aug 10 - 06:21 AM

Refresh

Subject: RE: BS: So little empathy for Pakistan?
From: bobad
Date: 23 Aug 10 - 06:45 AM

Pakistan floods: Senior UN figure criticises response

A senior United Nations official has called on the global community to urgently step up its response to the floods that have struck Pakistan.

Louis-George Arsenault, director of emergency operations for Unicef in New York, described the lack of support as "quite extraordinary".

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-south-asia-11054958

Subject: RE: BS: So little empathy for Pakistan?
From: bobad
Date: 23 Aug 10 - 08:34 AM

Pakistan's Plea

We started the show with a clip of UN Secretary-General Ban Ki-Moon, speaking in Islamabad, Pakistan last week. He had just returned from some of the country's worst flood-affected zones, where millions have been displaced by the disaster - and tens of thousands of villages still remain underwater.

There is no question of the urgency of the situation and the urgency of the Secretary-General's call. Thus far, the UN has asked for $460 million dollars in donations - but the pledges have been slow to come and the cause has not caught fire with the public in the west. That's in stark contrast to immediate and plentiful assistance donated after the earthquake in Haiti and the Asian tsunami of 2004 but it's also much less than was raised in the aftermath of the 2005 earthquake in Pakistani Kashmir.

The slow response has been blamed on Pakistan's so-called "image problem" and that may be true, judging by the online comments of newspaper readers in this country who've directed more than their fair share of vitriol at the victims of the flooding. But on the other side of that coin, many observers have suggested that the disaster presents the west - particularly the U.S. - with the opportunity to make political gains in a strategically-important part of the world where the Americans themselves have the "image problem." On top of that, inside Pakistan, nearly every side of the fractured poltical and military power structure has an interest in appearing to be one delivering help - and in discrediting opponents.

Shuja Nawaz is an analyst and author and the Director of the South Asia Center at the Atlantic Council of the United States. He was in our Washington studio. Tarek Fatah also joined us in Toronto. He's a writer, broadcaster and founder of Muslim Canadian Congress.

Listen to this informative discussion HERE, click on the player at the listen to hour one link.

Subject: RE: BS: So little empathy for Pakistan?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 23 Aug 10 - 05:15 PM

It may be that the corner has been turned in terms of quantity of donations - apparently a late spurt from the UK. The news is saying that the total donated is up to 70% of what is immediately needed (infrastructure and reform are a long way down the road) and the biggest problem is not now what canbe got, but how to get it where it is needed without something like 100% of the Ukraine's heavy lifting gear and 100% of the USA 's giant helicopters - and a problem about relative influence between the military and the government, which is tending to make UK NGOs do their own distribution in Pakistan. .

Subject: RE: BS: So little empathy for Pakistan?
From: Teribus
Date: 24 Aug 10 - 11:05 AM

Er - just who bombed Afghanistan back into the stone age? - Richard Bridge

Not the armed Forces of the United States of America, Richard, maybe you should check

The towns and major population centres in the North of the country - try Messers Haqqani when they were busily ethnically cleansing the Tajiks and Uzbeks for their Taleban masters

West of the country and Kabul that would be Gulbuddin Hekmatyar (Although in the case of Kabul he was assisted by Haqqani)

The South was down to the Soviets who when they were faced with a problem in Kandahar surrounded the city with artillery and armour, using those assets plus air power to pounded it and its population for a month

The East was down to Ahmed Rashid Dostum on behalf of the Najibullah Government and their Soviet bosses.

Now then Richard what is it you claim the US Military did, and when do you reckon they did it (Back to the "Stone-Age" you say?).

When the BBC's John Simpson entered Kabul he commented that this is what Berlin must have been like in May 1945. Please correct me if I am in error here but the USA lost interest in Afghanistan when the Soviets left, and did not show any sign of interest in the place until Clinton rather ineffectually fired six cruise-missiles at Al-Qaeda camps in 1998.

In response to 9/11 when GWB gave assistance to the Northern Alliance in their ongoing civil war with the Taleban, US air power was specifically targetted at command and control centres and frontline positions as requested by Northern Alliance Commanders.

Subject: RE: BS: So little empathy for Pakistan?
From: Wolfgang
Date: 25 Aug 10 - 10:06 AM

I have let Google translate an article by a German Muslim in a left-wing (green) newspaper (TAGESZEITUNG). I have amended only those blunders of the translation that have made the text unintelligible. In partiular, the order of words and phrases is still very German, but that should not prevent understanding.

Wolfgang

No heart for Mullah Omar

In Pakistan, millions of people struggling for survival - yet the willingness to donate here so far very limited. Why does this affect us so little? BY DENIZ YÜCEL

Pakistan has 14 million people in the water up to their necks, but donations are used only sparingly.

The Germans spend too little for Pakistan's flood victims, much less than after the earthquake in Haiti or after the tsunami. Says Foreign Minister Guido Westerwelle (FDP). Says Government spokesman Steffen Seibert. Says the diaconate. Says Caritas. Says pretty much everyone who is somehow involved.

This has, so we hear mundane reasons such as the holiday season, donor fatigue after the collections at the beginning of the year or the lack of shocking images. Above all, the lack of donations has something to do with the country itself. For example, believes the spokeswoman for the Alliance Action Germany Helps Birte Steigert: "Pakistan is perceived as a country with a difficult political situation. "

One can formulate it this way. But can express things also a bit more concrete. You may recall that in Pakistan, such as Amnesty International reported that "torture and ill-treatment by law enforcement and security agencies are on the agenda". That the Taliban have established a reign of terror in some regions. That the government forces in fighting insurgents as well proceed with excessive violence. The fact that the Pakistani intelligence supported the Taliban in Afghanistan. Pakistan can afford nuclear weapons, but in international rankings, whether it be literacy or corruption, is reliably landing on the rear seats.

Not only the government and the militias are the problem. The problem is also the tribal structures which prevail especially in the flood hit northwest of the country. There, a group of elders may order a gang rape or settle a dispute between two families through the forced marriage of girls. The distinction between "state and militias evil, ordinary people good," works here even less than usually.

In any case the Pakistani government as well as the Pakistani society in the past few years have worked hard to get a bad image. ... Not only the image of Pakistan is shitty, Pakistan itself is a shitty state. No, not every opinion is a prejudice, and yes, it's stupid but true that many clichés are true unfortunately.

For instance, it happens somewhere in the world anything, by which the Muslims feel offended (and that is a lot), first thing in Islamabad, Karachi and Rawalpindi bearded men and women in burqa turn to the streets, burn flags and loudly wish somebody's death. The fact that they often wear on their feet a little more than a pair of sandals made of car tires, seems to bother these people less than the publication of some cartoons in a 5000 km distant country. Among the permanently taking offence soreheads, as which the Muslims like to present themselves, the Pakistanis are the ultras. But they are not hillbillies. In their way they take part in world events, for instance in June when they protested against Facebook founder Mark Zuckerberg, because users of the site had called for a Muhammad cartoon contest.

"May God give it to you," is a Turkish proverb, with which one fobs off beggars, to whom one would give nothing. One is tempted to call out to the Pakistanis that phrase. (Likewise one is inclined to desire Mullah Omar and his men may perish in their sockets.) However, in Pakistan live people who defend themselves against intolerable conditions. There live children, who are guilty of nothing. They too now need international aid.

... Perhaps, however, particularly in the north of the country at the end of the day it is the Taliban who decide on the distribution and use of food and medicines and who benefit most of the international aid. In any case, it is not morally reprehensible to face such questions before we shall make the transfer. But it is a cheap argument to castigate the lack of willingness to donate without answering such questions.

Subject: RE: BS: So little empathy for Pakistan?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 25 Aug 10 - 11:54 AM

US threat to bomb Pakistan "back to the Stone Age"

Subject: RE: BS: So little empathy for Pakistan?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 25 Aug 10 - 11:56 AM

Some history of US use of the phrase

Subject: RE: BS: So little empathy for Pakistan?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 25 Aug 10 - 12:31 PM

By the way, the idea that if I left out the word "again" it makes much difference is pretty feeble.