BS: An astute take on the Nov. 2010 election

Subject: BS: An astute take on the Nov. 2010 election
From: Genie
Date: 04 Nov 10 - 07:33 PM

From the Daily Mash:

"03-11-10
THE United States last night reasserted its hard won freedom to punch itself squarely in the balls.

Across the 50 states proud, angry voters stood on their tidy lawns and gave Barack Obama a bloody nose by repeatedly hammering themselves in the groin with a teapot.

..."

Read more here:
America Exercises Right To Punch Self In The Nuts

Subject: RE: BS: An astute take on the Nov. 2010 election
From: Little Hawk
Date: 04 Nov 10 - 07:41 PM

That's crude and grossly primitive stereotyping, Genie. If it had emanated from a right wing source and was instead aimed from the other point of view and denigrated people who voted Democratic in such a way, you'd be disgusted.

(keep in mind, I utterly detest the Republicans...so my comment has nothing to do with defending them or their record one iota)

But if you can't stand cheap shots and dumb stereotyping emanating from the Right, why chuckle over it when it comes from the Left?

I agree that the voters just did themselves no favour, but this kind of kneejerk partisan attack on people does no one any favour either.

Subject: RE: BS: An astute take on the Nov. 2010 election
From: akenaton
Date: 04 Nov 10 - 08:02 PM

These voters had the nuts kicked out of them before this election!
By the fucking system.....grievous bodily harm, then robbery.

I resent people like Genie ...who should know better ridiculing people who are rightly angry.
I've listened to these folks on TV and they dont seem like "extremists" to me, although described as such by Bill D.

Any movement which attacks the political power base of this corrupt system deserves support.

And Little Hawk is dead right, this type of ridicule is simply political partisanship.

Subject: RE: BS: An astute take on the Nov. 2010 election
From: Bobert
Date: 04 Nov 10 - 08:07 PM

Sheet fire, son...

I mean, lets get fuckin' real here... You got thugs going 'round with guns strapped on their legs at Obama rallies... You got thugs screamin' "String him up" in regards to Obama at Sarah Palin rallies... You got thugs going into town hall meetings and disrupting them... You got thugs banging on the walls where people are attempting to count ballots in the Florida recount... I mean, you got nuthin' but thugery, lies and unlimited money to keep the rich rich and we gotta just sit back and behave like little kids during nap time at nursery school???

Give me a break, LH...

You can sit back and say that we should just take another butt-fuckin' and say how nice it was but, fir me??? Anything we can do to keep our spirits up and fight the good fight against evil is worth it...Hey, the right wing and Boss Hog have raised the bar and we gotta be ready to fight in any manner we can less we'll be reciting the old "And then they came for me and there was no one left to save me..."

Partisan??? It's about time!!! We know perfectly well how much jkoney the right will spend to keep stealing our labor and our lives and our kids labor and their lives... We have seen it first hand... This ain't kneejerk... It about "framing" the issues and with a population that has been so brainwashed you gotta nturn it up seve4ral notches just to get their attention...

(But, Boberdz... Ain't that gonna piss 'um off even more???)

Yeah, well past time to really piss them off... Heck, we've been doing the time so now might as well do the crime...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: An astute take on the Nov. 2010 election
From: akenaton
Date: 04 Nov 10 - 08:16 PM

I wonder did any of you appreciate their funny little article on Drug addicts.....Fucking hilarious!

I wonder if their next target will be aids affected homosexuals...I'm sure you comedy "buffs" will be just killing yourselves!

Subject: RE: BS: An astute take on the Nov. 2010 election
From: DebC
Date: 04 Nov 10 - 08:52 PM

Looks to me like a UK version of our Onion. I thought it was pretty funny.

Debra

Subject: RE: BS: An astute take on the Nov. 2010 election
From: Genie
Date: 04 Nov 10 - 08:54 PM

Actually, Hawk, if you read the article and the caption on the pic of Obama, you'll see they didn't go too easy on him, either.

Subject: RE: BS: An astute take on the Nov. 2010 election
From: Genie
Date: 04 Nov 10 - 09:01 PM

And, Akenaton, the article isn't ridiculing people for being - rightly - angry. They're ridiculing people who turn their anger at the wrong people (and policies, parties, etc.).   I share a lot of the Tea Partiers' frustrations, but when they turn that anger against everything "governmental" and become the handmaidens of big corporations and the obscenely wealthy -- as though corporate "takeover" of our roads, schools, health care, military, prisons, and even our government is just hunky-dory and really leaves the people "free" - that's when I think they're a pitifully misled lot.


Anyway, while I thought the jibes were funny, I didn't agree with every bit of it. : D


And I don't object to "my own" being roasted and ridiculed too. I just think the satire should be based on real flaws and foibles -- of which Obama and liberals have many.

Subject: RE: BS: An astute take on the Nov. 2010 election
From: Bobert
Date: 04 Nov 10 - 09:05 PM

Actually, Genie... The Tea Party, being so brainwashed, are turning their anger against themselves... Just to dumbed down to know it...

But like they say...

...I may be dumb but I vote...

lol...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: An astute take on the Nov. 2010 election
From: Joe Offer
Date: 04 Nov 10 - 09:10 PM

I gotta say, I'm getting tired of election threads. Why does there have to be a new thread for every new comment some plumber makes? Couldn't this be part of one of the sixteen other threads that have been started about Tuesday's election?

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: An astute take on the Nov. 2010 election
From: akenaton
Date: 04 Nov 10 - 09:22 PM

Its not really about the election Joe, its about distasteful stereotyping.....read Hawks post.

Then read this piece of "humour" which our members appear to appreciate.
Personally, although branded a racist,homophobe,bigot here, I dont happen to find jokes about sick people, funny.

Home News Society JUNKIES TO BE RENAMED 'HEROIN BUFFS'



      
24-08-10

DRUG abusers are to be renamed 'heroin buffs' in recognition of their in-depth knowledge and appreciation of the world's finest narcotics.




Exam time at the University of HeroinThe UK Drug Policy Commission said terms like 'junkie' and 'addict' stigmatise decent, productive members of society who live ankle deep in vomit and would stab you right in the head for 50 pence.

Deputy director, Julian Cook, said: "In the same way that Dan Snow is a history buff or Rick Stein is really into haddock, can we not also apply the mantel of buff to someone who has taken the time and effort to develop a connoisseur's palate for opium derivatives?

"We should acknowledge the intellectual commitment and passion of those have decided to live in a cesspit, eat nothing but their own scabs and inject themselves eight times a day with a needle they found stuck up a dead rat."

He added: "I recently met an expert who could not only distinguish between Afghan and Burmese heroin, but could tell you when it was harvested, who mixed it with Vim and how many heads the local warlord had hacked off that year.

"But where's his six-part series on BBC4?"

Stephen Malley, a crack aficionado from Hatfield said: "I've been building up my collection of antique pipes for 20 years. This one was hand made in 1867 by Martin Van Hegelen, one of the finest glass blowers in Rotterdam. It's really quite exquisite and gets me totally fucking mental bastard off my tits.

"By the way, if I throw up blood on you, please do forgive me but I'm researching an article on some fucked-up Cambodian shit for the London Review of Smack."

Wayne Hayes, who lives in Stephen Malley's bath, added: "I am hoping to complete my Master of Heroin exams later this year and then take up a fellowship at the Doherty Institute in Kandahar.

"Or I might just keep filling this bath with piss."

Subject: RE: BS: An astute take on the Nov. 2010 election
From: Don Firth
Date: 04 Nov 10 - 09:35 PM

Genie, it strikes me that there are a couple of people here who didn't read that article very carefully. Or who aren't bothering to think before they lip off. But then, that seems to be chronic with them.

". . . better ridiculing people who are rightly angry. I've listened to these folks on TV and they dont seem like 'extremists' to me. . . ."

Hmm. . . .   "Rightly angry?" If these folks are not extremisits (carrying firearms to demonstrations, stomping on the heads of people they disagree with, other amusing little pecadilloes like that), I wonder what this individual would regard as "extremists," then!??

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: An astute take on the Nov. 2010 election
From: akenaton
Date: 04 Nov 10 - 09:46 PM

"Hmm. . . .   "Rightly angry?" If these folks are not extremisits (carrying firearms to demonstrations, stomping on the heads of people they disagree with, other amusing little pecadilloes like that), I wonder what this individual would regard as "extremists," then!??"

That comment from Don is another example of stereotyping... a whole movement condemned by the actions of TWO people.

There a many more than two on this forum who would happily stomp on my head if they got the chance....

Subject: RE: BS: An astute take on the Nov. 2010 election
From: Bobert
Date: 04 Nov 10 - 09:59 PM

Listen, Joe... Me and you usually on the same page ('cept when we ain't) but, hey, this joint is more than a place to come to get the tabs to "Puff the Magic Dragon" and, hey, it's only been three days since the latest corporate selection so, hey, this place is the one place ya' can come and just let it hang out... I mean, if Stroker Ace had just been killed at Talledaga an' this was a site where folks talked about 9 inch rears, lift and duration than I'd expect quite a few different threads on poor ol' Stroker's demise...

I mean, ain't no body stabbin' 'er shootin' each other, right???

Hey, it's entertainment... Good pressure relief valve, too...

Plus, lotta different ways o'lookin' at the election...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: An astute take on the Nov. 2010 election
From: Joe Offer
Date: 04 Nov 10 - 10:12 PM

Well, Bobert -
I'm not against the content of the messages. I question the idea of starting a new thread every time somebody sneezes. Why couldn't this be part of an existing thread on the election, of which we have many? This folk music forum has more threads on the November 2010 election, than it has had on "Puff" in the 14-year history of this forum (and I think we have more than enough threads on Puff, thankyouverymuch).
I count eight threads on "Puff," although I do admit that there were some other "Puff" threads that got combined into the remaining eight. Maybe we should have a "Puff" test for non-music threads....if a non-music topic garners as many threads as we have threads on "Puff," that's too many.
Or maybe we should start another thread to discuss whether or not "Puff" is a folk song....
-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: An astute take on the Nov. 2010 election
From: Bobert
Date: 04 Nov 10 - 10:42 PM

Yer absolutely right, Joe... We need more "puff" threads to balance this thing out...

(Whatever happened to Prop 19, anyway???)

B~

Subject: RE: BS: An astute take on the Nov. 2010 election
From: Don Firth
Date: 05 Nov 10 - 12:56 AM

More than two people, Ake. Many more people than two. I've seem photos of dozens of people brandishing firearms. And the signs that may of the Tea Party folks are carrying.

Do a little research before you start name-calling.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: An astute take on the Nov. 2010 election
From: Mrrzy
Date: 05 Nov 10 - 10:31 AM

He he he, now THAT's well put. The original post, I mean.

Subject: RE: BS: An astute take on the Nov. 2010 election
From: Greg F.
Date: 05 Nov 10 - 10:46 AM

I resent people like Genie ...who should know better ridiculing people who are rightly angry.

Nobody's ridiculing them because they're angry. They're being ridiculed, and rightly so, because they are idiots voting adgainst their own interests without having a clue that they're doing so.

Or should morons be a "Protected Class"?

Subject: RE: BS: An astute take on the Nov. 2010 election
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 05 Nov 10 - 10:52 AM

Not really too different from saying it was a case of cut off your nose to spite your face. Different metaphor, that's all.

Subject: RE: BS: An astute take on the Nov. 2010 election
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 05 Nov 10 - 11:02 AM

Or, for example:

Shot themselves in the foot.

Own goal.


People are always going to try to come up with a different way of expressing the same idea.

Subject: RE: BS: An astute take on the Nov. 2010 election
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 05 Nov 10 - 11:36 AM

>>That's crude and grossly primitive stereotyping,<<<

No it is not it is satire. The satirical point being that the Tea Party people got angry and voted against their self interest.

>>> Genie. If it had emanated from a right wing source and was instead aimed from the other point of view and denigrated people who voted Democratic in such a way, you'd be disgusted.<<<

That kind of stuff, and much worse, emanates from right wing sources in large media outlets 24 hours a day. Much of it overtly racist or classist or just plain lies disguised as satire. Do you see Genie railing against that?

I didn't think so.

You are calling her a hypocrite for something she might say, but hasn't said.

If you continue to act like GfS people are going to think that you are a nuts as he seems to be.

Subject: RE: BS: An astute take on the Nov. 2010 election
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 05 Nov 10 - 11:46 AM

Gee whiz Joe, what difference does it make? One thread with 100,000 posts or a thousand with 100 posts? It doesn't cost Max extra money to start a fresh thread. Does it?

It is a lot easier to read shorter threads. and frankly the idea of refreshing a thread from years ago to talk about the news today is silly and rude. Why should we be expected to read what was said in 2007 to make a comment on it today?

Why don't we just have one thread for all the music and another for everything else. Two threads what could be simpler!!

AND AND AND....

If you knew how tempted I was to start a thread saying "BS:Somebody Sneezed!!!" you might choose your words more carefully!!!

Subject: RE: BS: An astute take on the Nov. 2010 election
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 05 Nov 10 - 01:49 PM

I count eight threads on 'Puff'

Tea Parties used to be all about having a puff... 'When someone was low on money, they'd have a 'tea party' and their friends would show up, buy some reefer and stay to enjoy it. Soon in Harlem, these parties became the famous 'rent parties' to raise money to pay the rent.'

Subject: RE: BS: An astute take on the Nov. 2010 election
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 05 Nov 10 - 01:54 PM

There is only so much to say about any particular folk song. Or at least there should be.

Look on the bright side. In 5 years no one will start another thread on this election. But they might start one asking if "Puff" is a folk song.

Subject: RE: BS: An astute take on the Nov. 2010 election
From: Don Firth
Date: 05 Nov 10 - 02:32 PM

Ah, how soon we forget!

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: An astute take on the Nov. 2010 election
From: akenaton
Date: 05 Nov 10 - 03:14 PM

Well Jack it may be satire to urbane well educated folks like you, but to most people it simply reinforces stupidity and stereotyping.

Like all addicts would stab you in the head for 50p...or all addicts piss in the bath, or all addicts live ankle deep in vomit, eat their own scabs and inject themselves eight times a day, with a needle they found stuck up a dead rat.

In the UK we used to have a TV series, which attempted to satirise racism by portraying the main character...Alf Garnet as a bigotted racist, with ultra conservative ideas....it was supposed to make the character look pathetic, but in fact it turned Alf into an anti hero.
In the end Alf became so popular that Johnny Speight the writer was quoted as saying that he wished he had never invented him.

The writer in Genie's publication was attempting to satirise political correctness and the "liberal" newspeak that Little Hawk referred to, but to most people the article was simply a chance to denigrate those who are addicted to hard drugs......most are in fact psychiatric cases.

It's what is called being "too clever by half"...put that in your notebook Mr McGrath!

I've seen too much of the misery addicts endure, to find anything about the condition remotely funny.
The same stereotyping is used to imply stupidity to a whole grass roots movement who have worked out that there is something rotten at the heart of "big government".
All the facts are available to back up their stance, this government and its predecessor has just robbed you and your children and grandchildren of billions of dollars, the right to a living, and any chance of decent public services.

Who are the really stupid ones?

Subject: RE: BS: An astute take on the Nov. 2010 election
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 05 Nov 10 - 03:25 PM

Are "most" people reading comedy websites from the UK? I think you need to look at the intended audience before you make comments like that.

I don't think many Tea Partiers are in danger of having theri feelings hurt.

Subject: RE: BS: An astute take on the Nov. 2010 election
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 05 Nov 10 - 03:34 PM

to most people the article was simply a chance to denigrate those who are addicted to hard drugs.

The only link on this thread that I saw is Genie's in the first post, and that didn't seem to throw up an article like that. Have I missed something?

Subject: RE: BS: An astute take on the Nov. 2010 election
From: akenaton
Date: 05 Nov 10 - 03:49 PM

The publication linked to by Genie, contained several satirical articles.....including the one concerning the "stupidity" of Tea Party members and the one satirising "liberal newspeak" amongst drug workers, which I printed in full above.

Obviously you have not been paying attention Mr McGrath.

Subject: RE: BS: An astute take on the Nov. 2010 election
From: Greg F.
Date: 05 Nov 10 - 03:57 PM

Well, Amenhotep, I think you're paying way TOO MUCH attention- so much so you're starting to see things that arent there. born in Winchendon, MA

Subject: RE: BS: An astute take on the Nov. 2010 election
From: akenaton
Date: 05 Nov 10 - 04:04 PM

It was there Greg, right on the front page.
It has now been moved to the archive....please try to keep up   :0)

Subject: RE: BS: An astute take on the Nov. 2010 election
From: Don Firth
Date: 05 Nov 10 - 04:31 PM

I've read the article and browsed the other things on the site.

What the hell are you raving on about, Ake!??

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: An astute take on the Nov. 2010 election
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 05 Nov 10 - 06:17 PM

I have no doubt that in the archives of just about any publication there'd be something to object to. It just takes a bit of persistent digging, I suppose.

Subject: RE: BS: An astute take on the Nov. 2010 election
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 05 Nov 10 - 06:44 PM

There's certainly a lot of shit from the Pharaoh about Roma, travellers, and homosexuals.

Subject: RE: BS: An astute take on the Nov. 2010 election
From: Little Hawk
Date: 05 Nov 10 - 06:57 PM

Genie, it is the style and the verbal tactics of that article you originally linked to in this thread that I don't care for. I have no objection to the basic point of the article. I agree with that point. But I don't like the way the point is put across through really gross stereotyping of the people on the other side of the political divide. I make no judgement on what you would hypothetically do in regards to that situation nor do I chastise you for it. My issue is with the style and attitude of the article.

If gross prejudice is wrong when practiced against "liberals", it is also wrong when practiced against "conservatives" (I use those 2 damned words because they have become standard symbols in the common vernacular...but symbols which are mostly used now to mislead and pigeon-hole people and beat them over the head with rather than to enlighten them.)

Subject: RE: BS: An astute take on the Nov. 2010 election
From: akenaton
Date: 05 Nov 10 - 07:47 PM

Christ...and you talk about Tea Party stupidity!

When I first read Genie's link, beside the article was a drop down menu of other satirical pieces. The one I copied was titled "Heroin Buffs".
When I looked at the link again later, the "Heroin Buffs" article had been deleted from the menu and replaced with another title.

The article in question can be accessed by typing "Heroin Buffs" into the search box.
When you have finished please remember to turn off your computer, you will know your computer is off when all the lights go out
Then, all will be in darkness.

Subject: RE: BS: An astute take on the Nov. 2010 election
From: Little Hawk
Date: 05 Nov 10 - 07:51 PM

LOL!!!

Subject: RE: BS: An astute take on the Nov. 2010 election
From: akenaton
Date: 05 Nov 10 - 07:57 PM

Parential Guidance......My last post contains elements of irony.

Subject: RE: BS: An astute take on the Nov. 2010 election
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 05 Nov 10 - 09:33 PM

Another useless thread.

Subject: RE: BS: An astute take on the Nov. 2010 election
From: Lox
Date: 06 Nov 10 - 04:36 AM

"Any movement which attacks the political power base of this corrupt system deserves support."

Blind Faith in pseudo-religious dogma does not attack the power base of any political system.

It strengthens it.

Wilful ignorance and misinformation also strengthen the political system.



McGrath,

Here is an article which satirizes "newspeak" - the rebranding of contentious and controversial issues in order to somehow sanitize them and make them more palatable to those talking about them so they don't have to face up to what they are.

Many people criticize newspeak for being unnecessarily "politically correct"

Ake for example has a big problem with "liberals" who are hung up on using politically correct terminology when what matters isn't the words used to describe the issue, but the people afffected by the issue.

So this satirical article makes Akes point very well.

Unfortunately, he appears to have missed the point rather spectacularly and appears to have turned into a "liberal" according to his own criteria.

It must be very frustrating.



Heroin Buffs

Subject: RE: BS: An astute take on the Nov. 2010 election
From: Lox
Date: 06 Nov 10 - 04:38 AM

Jack,

Last post directed to you too.

Subject: RE: BS: An astute take on the Nov. 2010 election
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 06 Nov 10 - 04:55 AM

Pickled Fish, that is really a rather ignorant statement. AFAIK it is no part of the purpose of "PC" speak to liberate the subjects "so they don't have to face up to what they are".

Subject: RE: BS: An astute take on the Nov. 2010 election
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 06 Nov 10 - 05:17 AM

Jack the Sailor: "If you continue to act like GfS people are going to think that you are a nuts as he seems to be."

At least I consider the 'other' side....Come to think of it, maybe the Tea Partiers are angry, and maybe for good reason, and from their perspective you look like a flaming idiot, who's hung up into some notion you picked up while stoned in the 60's.....ever think of that??

Personally, I think people should really LISTEN to each other, and UNDERSTAND what the opposing side says, before you answer them...that way, you don't have to sound like the irrational idiot, that you accuse them of being!

...and I'm nuts???...and who says I'm a 'He'? You sure assume a lot, for a waterlogged sailor!

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: An astute take on the Nov. 2010 election
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 06 Nov 10 - 05:19 AM

...and maybe you're all wet...and maybe it ain't water, either!

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: An astute take on the Nov. 2010 election
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 06 Nov 10 - 08:08 AM

Maybe the people who think Obama is "a communist" or "a socialist" or a Muslim, or an alien, are a tiny unrepresentative minority of these Tea Party people. But the impression comes across that these are pretty standard views among them.

And people who think like that like that are pretty clearly out of touch with reality, and it's not unreasonable to point this out.

Subject: RE: BS: An astute take on the Nov. 2010 election
From: akenaton
Date: 06 Nov 10 - 08:56 AM

Do you think those who support the present political set up are more in touch with reality?

Even as a lifelong Communist, I never believed that we would tolerate what has been done to us by the political class over the last five or so years

Are sheep really the most stupid animal?

Subject: RE: BS: An astute take on the Nov. 2010 election
From: Bobert
Date: 06 Nov 10 - 09:16 AM

Sheep??? Tea Party folks??? How do you tell the difference between 'um??? Both white and both been on the wrong end of Boss Hog's sexual fantasies...

But seriously... I really don't care about ideology as much as I care about good policy that is grounded in factual knowledge of modern economics... I mean, yeah, it has become fashionable to beat down people who have taken the time and made the effort to get educated but we've had 30 years of "elite bashing" and look where it has gotten US???

Time to let the adults have a try at gettin' US outta this mess... I mean, if you just look at education alone the US needs to make some serious changes if we are going to be able to compete with anyone short of Bangladesh in 20 years... And we need to start with a culture that prides itself in not being educated as being something that is cool... Until we quit bashing education then we're goin' to slip even further down the ladder... Being stupid is ***NOT*** cool at all and I'd love for the Repubs and REDNECK NATION to quit their bashing of educated people... No wonder the brightest and best ain't stickin' around... They don't fell all that welcome... Until we quit this George Bush I crap then we ain't going anywhere...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: An astute take on the Nov. 2010 election
From: Lox
Date: 06 Nov 10 - 09:21 AM

Richard,

You have either misread or misunderstood this sentence:

"Here is an article which satirizes "newspeak" - the rebranding of contentious and controversial issues in order to somehow sanitize them and make them more palatable to those talking about them so they don't have to face up to what they are."

To clarify: that sentence focusses on newspeak, not PC.

Another word for "Newspeak" is "Spin".

In addition, there is no implication that the "subjects" of newspeak need to face up to anything, that is your inference.

The sentence, in short, says that Newspeak is used to redefine issues often falsely, to allow politicians to get away with heinous activity.

An example is David Camerons given reason for selling off the forests: which was that they need "re-energizing".

This is clearly newspeak for "cutting them down" to build leisure parks and non-leisure parks.

"Newspeak" is also used for other purposes.

In addition, I have said that "many people" criticize PC, not that I do so.

I would add that if you were to read my post as a whole, you would note that it is a response to the outrage and scandal provoked by the "heroin buffs" article, and indirectly also a response to the preposterous posturing on the alleged offensiveness of the original article.

But most of all, it serves to highlight Akes utter hypocrisy.

Subject: RE: BS: An astute take on the Nov. 2010 election
From: Lox
Date: 06 Nov 10 - 09:58 AM

"Well Jack it may be satire to urbane well educated folks like you, but to most people it simply reinforces stupidity and stereotyping."

Because uneducated folks don't get satire?

Now theres a denigrating stereotype if ever I saw one!

In fact both social satire (the office) and political satire (have I got news for you) are enormously succesful in the UK.

Seems like the great unwashed have a more sophisticated palate than you might think Ake.

In fact ...

Seems like the great unwashed have a more sophisticated palate than you ... Ake.

Subject: RE: BS: An astute take on the Nov. 2010 election
From: Little Hawk
Date: 06 Nov 10 - 11:13 AM

If you want to criticize a political movement, do it intelligently. Point out their errors in thinking in a detailed and accurate fashion (as Obama does, for example), point out their misuse of data, their omission of data which doesn't support their position, etc. Come up with reasonable alternatives of your own.

But if all you can do is grossly insult your political opponents and treat them as moronic stereotypes, well, that indicates that you don't think of them as people at all. You think of them as subhuman symbols of everything you hate and fear. And the problem is...they probably think of you that way too. And that's why the situation that results is devoid of any possiblity of resolution.

Obama has always taken the high road, avoided this sort of insulting, demeaning behaviour, and talked about serious things instead. Why can't so many of you who claim to admire him follow his example in that?

I think the answer is that you'd much rather vent your anger and hatred here and metaphorically spit on the people you disagree with rather than go to the trouble of being reasonable, and treating other people as real human beings rather than moronic stereotypes that just give you a chance to spew negativity and scorn. You like being really mean to "the evil/ignorant people", because it gives you a big adrenalin rush. It momentarily satisfies your thirst for vengeance and retaliation. It makes you feel righteous and "better" than them. You're probably a lot more like those people you hate than you realize.

Thank God at least Obama doesn't sink that low. He avoids taking the low road. That's one of the things I really like about him. He has dignity, and he treats other people with dignity.

Subject: RE: BS: An astute take on the Nov. 2010 election
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 06 Nov 10 - 11:37 AM

Lox, If you are directing those posts to me, I have no idea what I am supposed to get from them.


Maybe if I make my position more clear I can rephrase.

The link Genie posted was a joke in a joke website. Little Hawks umbrage was misplaced.

Akeneton. Some jokes work, some don't not all jokes work with everyone. If you were to ask my advice, I would suggest that you lighten up. Since you haven't and you haven't attacked anyone here as LH did, I have ignored you til now and now I am simply explaining why.

I don't give a damn what else was on the site. It is enough to know that they are joking and Genie posted a good joke.

At one point in this thread I tried to explain the joke, but now I wonder if that was a waste of time. Some people get it. Some don't. You who disagree may find things amusing which I don't. It's all good.

Subject: RE: BS: An astute take on the Nov. 2010 election
From: akenaton
Date: 06 Nov 10 - 01:07 PM

Jack, don't worry about the meaning of Lox's writing, he has succeeded once again in tying himself in knots, so desperate is he to invalidate anything that I say.

Little Hawk has said that he did not mean to attack you or anyone else personally, and is adopting the sensible stance which is his trademark.

I just wish that I could be a little more like him and avoid being so confrontational, but I suppose that takes much more self discipline than I can muster, being a relative novice at this game(as you can all see from my grammer and spelling.)

So Jack, with the best of intentions, I would suggest that you take it easy on LH and read his posts maybe from another perspective.
His writing has made me a wiser and I think a better person, maybe it could work for you too.....Ake

Subject: RE: BS: An astute take on the Nov. 2010 election
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 06 Nov 10 - 01:25 PM

No offense, Akeneton. But I've known Little Hawk a long time. I know where he usually stands. I think he crossed a line.

Since you are giving me advice I shall offer some back.

Lighten up. Learn to take a joke, or at least learn to recognize one. and no, not all jokes work and almost all are offensive to someone.

Someone told this one to David Sedaris. Sedaris told it to Jon Stewart the other day.

A man was about to go to bed one night and a snail knocked on his door.
The man answered the door and the snail said "Do you want to by some Magazines?"

The man said "How dare you at this time of night?" and kicked the snail off into the darkness.

Two years later the man, about to go to bed, hear a knock on the door.
As he opens the door the snail yells, "What the f*ck was that all about??"

Some people may find that offensive. I find it funny. To each their own.

Subject: RE: BS: An astute take on the Nov. 2010 election
From: akenaton
Date: 06 Nov 10 - 02:57 PM

Jack ...I found that joke very funny indeed, but I haven't much of an emotional attachment to snails.....especially the one on this forum :0)

In real life, I'm a very cheerful character, always joking and tending to like most folks

But for me too there is a line, and on the other side of that line is sarcasm against people with health problems, be they psychological or physical.....and I hate the type of "humour" produced by the lynch mob mentality be it from left or right, "liberal" or conservative.

Subject: RE: BS: An astute take on the Nov. 2010 election
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 06 Nov 10 - 03:03 PM

I don't think you have any business putting "humour" in quotes. If they sincerely meant it as humour, and I think they did. Then it is humour. Its ok that you disagree and don't like it but I would like to see you lighten up. That's why I told the snail joke.

BTW, I think I just found out that you are neither a snail nor a magazine sales man who is offended by profanity.

Subject: RE: BS: An astute take on the Nov. 2010 election
From: akenaton
Date: 06 Nov 10 - 03:13 PM

BTW.....If anyone is wondering why "liberal"......a true liberal would NEVER use such tactics.

Subject: RE: BS: An astute take on the Nov. 2010 election
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 06 Nov 10 - 03:15 PM

Very few people in the US understand the meanings of the words "liberal" and "conservative."

They know the labels all too well.

Subject: RE: BS: An astute take on the Nov. 2010 election
From: akenaton
Date: 06 Nov 10 - 03:16 PM

What an amazing cross post ....Sorry Jack

Subject: RE: BS: An astute take on the Nov. 2010 election
From: Lox
Date: 06 Nov 10 - 04:49 PM

To Jack,

I mentioned you as Akes suggestion that only a select political elite understand satire, and his implication that those who use it are somehow out of touch with real people, or insensitive about their frustrations etc was aimed at you.


To the world in general.

Apart from the fact that this assertion of Akes is wildly inaccurate - satire, in its social and political forms is immensely popular in the UK among every demographic - Akes assertion is in fact an extremely patronizing generalization about "uneducated" people.

Ask anyone in the UK about Alf Garnet - whether white British or from any racial or sexual minority - and the majority will tell you that he is a hideous caricature. They will also tell you that they love that Caricature. Why? Because it was well done.

I have heard Black and Asian comedians claim that the character Alf Garnet was a very powerful and effective satirical weapon in the fight to overcome ignorance and bigotry in the UK.

You will encounter only a tiny few people who take that caricature seriously and they are the very people that were being satirized.

But what has really motivated me to comment on this thread is that Ake has dared to be outraged and scandalized by satirical generalizations of Junkies when a cursory glance at his posting history uncovers a tome of entirely non satirical and wholly offensive generalizations about Moslems, Tinkers, Gays and asylum seekers.

If Ake posts political opinions on a public forum he should expect to have his comments scrutinized.

Whinging that having his point of view scrutinized is equivalent to having his freedom of speech curtailed, or moaning that it somehow makes him a victim is a complete joke.

Subject: RE: BS: An astute take on the Nov. 2010 election
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 06 Nov 10 - 04:56 PM

Lox, Ake,

I guess I don't get the cultural references.

But a joke is a joke.

Subject: RE: BS: An astute take on the Nov. 2010 election
From: Slag
Date: 06 Nov 10 - 08:18 PM

No, the folks on the left couldn't possibly be wrong, could they? Talk about not getting it. Rename this thread "A stupid take on the nov. 2010 elections"

Subject: RE: BS: An astute take on the Nov. 2010 election
From: Bobert
Date: 06 Nov 10 - 08:56 PM

Those of us on the left know the following:

1. Cutting revenues is no answer for reducing deficits....

2. 40 years ago US students were 1st in math and science... Today they aren't in the top 20...

3. Paying out 17% of our GNP for lousy health care makes our country less competitive...

4. Cutting the kind of federal spending that would make a dent in deficit without raising revenues would require cuts in one or all of the following: eduction, defense, Social Security and/or Medicare...

5. Making fun of educated people probably has had a role in why we are seein' the highest high school drop out rates since the early 50s...

6. Allowing unlimited secret money into our elections is a formula for disaster...

7. Tax policies that promote US corporations laying off American workers contributes to the unemployment...

8. Giving a tax break to the rich will not produce one single job because they already have lots of excess cash and aren't using it for produce jobs...

9. Allowing rich people to set up off-shore accounts for the purposes of evading taxes is bad policy...

10. Allowing a FCC licensed media company to use publicly owned airwaves to promote the Republican Party is against the original intent of having the airwaves owned by all of us...

11. Sitting back watching the working class's wages stagnate for 30 years is a recipe for disaster...

12. The US now boasts the highest poverty rates of any civilized/industrialized nation in the eastern hemisphere...

13. The US also boasts the highest infant mortality rate among those nations...

14. Allowing our Senate to impose "minority rule" with the filibuster rule has further chizzled in stone that our Senate is the place where legislation goes to die and makes the US more vulnerable because of a government that is unable to act (govern)...

15. The "Age of Emotionalism" that the US is stuck in has produced endless wars since the end of WW II... The US needs to think before it shoots...

16. One in 5 children now live in poverty in the US...

17. The Wall Street bailout (TARP), which was the correct thing to do to head off a complete financial collapse, was done on George Bush's watch...

18. The government is not the enemy... Greed is...

19. Negotiating involves compromise... Coming to the table saying that everything is on the table except ____________ is dishonest...

20. The US is in a downward spiral that is going to involve hard choices and compromise...

There, LH... Them's is just fir starters...

As for my assertions that ceratin folks are "morons"??? Hey, when I look around me and see people droppion' outta school and bustin' on folks that don't the word "moron" ain't all that much a stretch here...

And when I hear folks who obviously know nuthin' about basic economics preaching to me about economic theories that are as backwards as using leeches then I think I think "moron"...

Maybe "stupid" is a better word, I donno... Hey, there ain't no away around this little situation where some very emotional folks harbor flat-earth beliefs and want to impose them on the country because the governemnt was bought by people who only want to make/steal money by gaming the system...

We've had 30 years of bad policy based less on facts and science and more on folks emotions and it clearly ain't workin' for US so, hey, excuse me if I stoop to callin' them what they are: okay, you like ignorant any better???

B~

Subject: RE: BS: An astute take on the Nov. 2010 election
From: GUEST,Songbob
Date: 06 Nov 10 - 11:51 PM

In the US, the British "Alf" character was named (by a friend of many of us*) "Archie Bunker" in the version produced here. And he, too, became an anti-hero of sorts.


Bob

* Pete the Spy (for real)

Subject: RE: BS: An astute take on the Nov. 2010 election
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 07 Nov 10 - 12:39 AM

No Slag, they have the Tea Party pegged pretty well.

I can tell you one thing, I am very conservative fiscally, but I am not stupid enough to think that a 3% decrease in the marginal tax rate for the Koch brothers is doing a damned thing for me.

Subject: RE: BS: An astute take on the Nov. 2010 election
From: akenaton
Date: 07 Nov 10 - 02:30 PM

Yes Bob...I watched a couple of these shows, but they were pretty tame compared with the UK version.

I thought "Till death us do part" was a great piece of TV, till I started talking to workmates and reading newspaper reviews, then I realised that most were homing in on the racism and the programme was promoting the very attitudes it had intended to satirise.

For satire to work it needs wit, intelligence and humanity, without these it is simply an instrument of cruelty..... and we just love a bit of cruelty ...eh?

Subject: RE: BS: An astute take on the Nov. 2010 election
From: Bill D
Date: 07 Nov 10 - 06:09 PM

sometimes the "astute take" is by a cartoonist:

new Republican platform

Getting the 'news' disseminated

Ok...you won

Subject: RE: BS: An astute take on the Nov. 2010 election
From: akenaton
Date: 07 Nov 10 - 06:16 PM

Bill, I wouldn't catagorise any of those as satire.
Simply witless propaganda.

Subject: RE: BS: An astute take on the Nov. 2010 election
From: Bill D
Date: 07 Nov 10 - 06:23 PM

Witless propaganda? To those on the right, I suppose.
*I* thought they were pretty funny....and the 'dog catches car' might be pretty close.

The 'dissemination of the news' is even an understatement! You should see some of the actual 'stories' that were spread.

Subject: RE: BS: An astute take on the Nov. 2010 election
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 08 Nov 10 - 01:36 PM

Witless? I think not.

Propaganda? Yeah right.

Subject: RE: BS: An astute take on the Nov. 2010 election
From: Genie
Date: 08 Nov 10 - 08:31 PM

[["Any movement which attacks the political power base of this corrupt system deserves support."]]

Let's see:
a. tax cuts for millionaires and billionaires - including the total elimination of the inheritance tax
b. perpetuating "wars" in Iraq and Afghanistan - and maybe invading Iran
c. preventing an Islamic cultural center from being build a few blocks from "ground zero"
d. reverting to a private, for-profit health care "system" that denies millions of people access to basic health care while high percentages of insurees' premiums are spent on bureaucracy, million $ compensation packages for executives, and advertising
e. privatizing Social Security - so that people's investments are at risk like other stock market investments and so that private companies skim substantial percentages off the top
f. allowing "persons" - including corporations - to spend unlimited $$ to influence the outcome of our elections
g. allowing paid lobbyists continued access to our elected officials

How do those things help overcome the corruption in our political system?

Subject: RE: BS: An astute take on the Nov. 2010 election
From: Bobert
Date: 08 Nov 10 - 08:37 PM

I think that the Dems should get together and come up with an "Adopt a Tea Partier" and see what's up... I mean, each could take a Tea Party electee to lunch and see what's what... Who knows??? I mean, the Tewa Party folks is gonna get nuthin' by pressure from the other Repubs to get in line but now if the Dems would just make friends with 'um, who knows... I mean, the Dems have been more fiscally responsible going back 3 decades than Repubs...

Prolly a bad idea but, hey???

B~

Subject: RE: BS: An astute take on the Nov. 2010 election
From: Lox
Date: 09 Nov 10 - 06:18 AM

Has anyone heard the term "astroturf movement"?

It describes a fake grassroots movement.

This article describes how the teaparty is anything but a grassroots movement.

Toxic Brew

Subject: RE: BS: An astute take on the Nov. 2010 election
From: Don Firth
Date: 09 Nov 10 - 08:41 PM

Yeah, Bobert, prolly a bad idea. Even dangerous, maybe.

I can envision a Dem taking a tea partier to lunch and the tea partier eats the Dem. . . .

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: An astute take on the Nov. 2010 election
From: Genie
Date: 09 Nov 10 - 09:07 PM

Yeah, Lox,
The "Tea Party" has been known to be a largely "astroturf" movement for a long time now. Yes, a lot of the protesters are average citizens, but they are fed disinformation by the likes of Sarah Palin, Glen Beck, Michelle Bachman, and a host of right-wing talk radio jocks and the Fox "News" commentators, and the buses that take them to rallies are paid for in large part by the Koch brothers and other rich Republican donors.   
Trouble is, the "mainstream media" keep talking about them as though they were a true "grassroots" organization (self-funded by middle-class and lower-income taxpayers).

Subject: RE: BS: An astute take on the Nov. 2010 election
From: Genie
Date: 09 Nov 10 - 09:10 PM

If the Tea Party "movement" was truly grass roots, I think they'd be open to talking with any and all members of Congress (or state and local officials), not shutting out input from everyone who's a Democrat or a "liberal" or a "progressive.

Subject: RE: BS: An astute take on the Nov. 2010 election
From: Donuel
Date: 09 Nov 10 - 10:50 PM

My experience election day was interesting due to the fact that I was stationed outside all day and night at the little Democratic table 100 feet from the front door of the polls at an elementary school. At 7 AM it was 30 degrees and an onion skin of ice coated everything defying all my attempts to tape up any posters or cartoons that I made with the help of Staples' oversize printer.

There were a number of conversations, accusations and immutable truths that I encountered that day which, when viewed in retrospect, looked like a microcosm of politics nationwide.

Among several other chilly volunteers there was a career fireman there who eventually put on a coat only after I gave him mine which could not cover his massive chest. His job was to explain the Ambulance ammendment which would take the fees that always went to Insurance companies and give it to the county to pay for professional fire departments alone. When people would hear a Volunteer fire chief say vote NO and other fire chiefs say vote YES people naturally became completely confounded.

The professional fireman standing beside us at 7 AM looked like a clean shaven Haggred from Harry Potter as he kindly explained how the confusion was spread by Insurance companies that had given $5,000 to each Volunteer Fire Dept. to campaign against the ammendment and suggest that volunteer firemen and women would lose their job if they voted yes.

As we chatted and carped about this and that outside, occaisonally a family or couple would ask us for information. Several people asked for a teacher's union ballot but we were not allowed to have those flyers and it took 8 hours until Art Fable came by with some teachers union reccomendations. Meanwhile a soul Tea party supporter for a school board candidate was practically chasing people as they tried to dodge and dash away. She probably influenced 8 people to vote for her friend. She claimed to be fasting and praying until the polls closed which she finally accomplished at 8 PM.

I met a women Democrat who was as bold and brash as Joyce Behar who brayed intelligently about the issues but when she brought up her Hungarian ancestry and I mentioned the Romas, she was as reactionary as a McCain supporter cursing illegal immigrants.

A reporter from Isreal stopped by and asked our little band if there we had any knowldege of the Jewish vote or donations made to certain candidates. She was very curious on our take on the Tea Party. When she asked why I was a Democrat you can immagine how I answered in my own imitical long winded way.

I was chatting with someone about the right wing in Isreal when a neighbor said Obama doesn't get along with the Jews as well as Bush.
I tried to outline the issues and rift with Netanyahu when the guy said, "If Isreal were to send missles into Iran to blow up their WMD program, Obama would be on the phone to Tehran warning them!"
I was going to ask if he would do that because he is a traitor, Muslim or an African but instead I said, "thats too polarizing a statement for me to know what to say to you."

-----

But most interesting to me was how many times I heard Republican People trashing the basic social contract of our civilization by saying "I don't want to pay for my neighbor's ambulance". "I don't want to pay for your bridge". "I don;t want to pay for your health care". Sometimes they would go into to detail how often the diabetic neighbor across the St. would call for an ambulance he blamed his neighbor for not taking better control of the disease and wasting tax payer money. Even asthmatics came into the conversation when someone mentioned a teenage girl who partied and multiple ambulance calls a month.

When I challenged one man's objection to using tax money for the common good, he became very steamed. I said maybe you want to be the one to exclude them from the tax paying community and get rid of them with some sort of death panel ?! He smiled wryly and said "I like that".

Sure there were mostly well informed people of even temperment but there were damn few young people. In fact there was less than 10% young voters that day.

I am still suffering from a bad ear from the cold on that election day but body and soul are recovering, but more slowly and with less hope than a couple years ago.

I did not go to the Democratic election celebration at the Double Tree Hotel that night. I suppose I didn't want to be one of the happy losers knoshing light refresments as the House of Cards began to fall. It may not have been any better than whacking myself with a teapot.

Subject: RE: BS: An astute take on the Nov. 2010 election
From: GUEST,TIA
Date: 09 Nov 10 - 11:04 PM

Now THIS is irony coming from whence it did:
"Personally, I think people should really LISTEN to each other, and UNDERSTAND what the opposing side says, before you answer them..."

Subject: RE: BS: An astute take on the Nov. 2010 election
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 10 Nov 10 - 11:52 AM

It is ironic. I could listen to that particular person for a week and not understand what was said. Though I would get a pretty clear feeling that my views are being held in contempt.