 sj |
||
|
||
BS: Omar Khadr
|
|
|
Subject: BS: Omar Khadr From: 3refs Date: 04 Nov 10 - 07:37 PM I would like those of you who may be familiar with this black eye on Canada(I can't tell you exactly what I think this is, or, how I feel, or, what I think should happen....might get arrested), to listen to what Charles Adler had to say. Amongst the things I wish I had the ability to say! http://corusent.typepad.com/files/dearprimeminister.mp3
|
|
Subject: RE: BS: Omar Khadr From: gnu Date: 04 Nov 10 - 07:59 PM Careful... you might be see as being Canadian... it's not in fashion these days. I mean, the Canuck establishment that has subverted Canadian Immigration and Citizenship laws for profit could see you as a threat to their foreign bank accounts and you could end up in trouble. But, I really don't care about me, despite the past naive threads here that would denegrate me. Omar should not be blamed. His parents should be shamed. How could they do what they did to him? When videos of him making bombs are "proof", they are proof that his parents are terrorists. They should have never been allowed to become Canucks. If anyone disagrees, fine. But, I think that those who disagree should agree that they should now not be allowed to be Canucks. Or, at least be jailed for child endangerment. And, perhaps, treason. Why such trash is allowed to enter this country and stay here is beyond reality. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Omar Khadr From: katlaughing Date: 04 Nov 10 - 08:36 PM Sometimes home-grown trash can be just as bad ala Timothy McVeigh. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Omar Khadr From: 3refs Date: 04 Nov 10 - 08:37 PM So, it sounds to me like we should just keep blame at the feet of the parents and their parents and their parents........... I did some things at 15 that most kids from any country probably wouldn't be doing. I never blamed my enviroment. I knew what I was doing. I knew right from wrong. Two brothers 10 and 13 years older, who I saw do some terrible things. A lot agianst each other! They may have exposed me to the seeder things in life at an early age, but I had the final say! As Adler hinted, just because he was only 15, doesen't make him a child soldier! |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Omar Khadr From: Beer Date: 04 Nov 10 - 09:00 PM I have not looked at your blue clicky 3refs because I do not want to be swayed by any opinion that is probably being projected as truth. So I will give you mine as far as being voiced by Kat, gnu and yourself to a point. I consider him a child soldier and he has served enough time. Never mind another 8 years. Hell you can kill your wife or visa versa and be out in less time. No proof here but I think that things went wrong in the whole process and got to a point whereby by no one could make a rational decision. It all became "What if"and everyone got lost in the decision making and not wanting to be seen as the decision maker. I have never seen it as a black eye for Canada. On the contrary. I see it as a Black Eye for the American Justice System. Ad. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Omar Khadr From: meself Date: 05 Nov 10 - 12:49 AM The treatment of Khadr is and has been and continues to be appalling. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Omar Khadr From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 05 Nov 10 - 07:15 AM This 15 year old child was living in Afghanistan at a time when it was invaded. He probably was responsible for the death of a member of the invading forces. If you invade another country you should expect that people living there may feel entitled to resist violently. That should not be treated as criminal behaviour. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Omar Khadr From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 05 Nov 10 - 07:47 AM He was living in Afghanistan in the same way that the man he killed was. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Omar Khadr From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 05 Nov 10 - 08:12 AM Christopher Speer, whom Omar Khadr was convicted of killing, was a member of the force which had invaded Afghanistan a few weeks previously. Omar Khadr had been living in Afghanistan for six years, since he had been nine years old. All deaths in war are tragic. But they are not normally regarded as criminal except in certain circumstances, such as when surrendered soldiers or non-combatants are deliberately killed. What Khadr appears to have done is to throw back a grenade which had been thrown by a American soldier in the course of a search and destroy operation, as a result of which Speer was killed. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Omar Khadr From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 05 Nov 10 - 08:28 AM That is not how it "appears" to me. Their was a lengthy fight. The Al Qaeda forces had plenty of their own grenades. Afghan militiamen were also killed by them. Omar appears to have been fighting with the Al Qaeda forces. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Omar Khadr From: GUEST,bankley Date: 05 Nov 10 - 09:14 AM wasn't Gitmo supposed to be closed by Obama ? The Conservative gov't hasn't been too keen on repatriating Khadr. They also lied about being involved in the plea bargain until the Americans said that they were, then they couldn't deny it. He might not do the full 7 yrs. when he gets back. I don't think that he should do any more time inside at all. A conditional release with rehab would be more appropriate, since the real war criminals, like Bush and Cheney are still at large... |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Omar Khadr From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 05 Nov 10 - 10:46 AM Could be, Keith. But fighting an invading army isn't in itself a criminal act any more than fighting in an invading army. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Omar Khadr From: Bob the Postman Date: 05 Nov 10 - 12:02 PM I'm with McGrath. Omar Khadr WAS a child soldier, heavy on the soldier. He was fighting other soldiers in a battle. If some soldiers want to label other soldiers as criminals, well, a pot is justified in calling a kettle black. The kettle's accusation of swarthiness is equally valid. The way Omar Khadr has been treated, by his parents, by the USA, and by Canada, is disgraceful. Everyone who connived at his incarceration and show-trial should be ashamed of themselves. As a Canadian, I am ashamed of my country's role in the affair. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Omar Khadr From: Crowhugger Date: 06 Nov 10 - 12:27 AM In my view it appears that Canada's black eye has largely disappeared from the public's mind and now it's the US military justice system that looks bad to the world. ...Do I think Omar Khadr is responsible for his upbringing? No. ...Is he responsible for his own actions at age 15? Partly. At that age, though, inexperience and hormones cause many a poor judgement, though I don't know what "better" judgement he should have made at the time, given his upbringing and being in a war zone. ...Do I want him, considering that upbringing and life experience, to be my neighbour, my niece's schoolteacher, my gas jockey or grocery store owner, free to do what he's been raised to do? The honest and embarrassing answer: Probably not. ...Can he be rehabilitated? I have no idea. ...If a 15 yr old white Canadian emigrant to Afghanistan raised by war mongering parents named Smith or Jones had thrown that grenade, would the Canadian gov't have behaved more supportively to him, stepped in more forcefully on his behalf? Sadly, I do believe so. In any case, I supposed that I'm just another small-l liberal who is awfully glad that someone, somewhere gets paid to make various difficult decisions (like whether to lobby the US to reduce/dismiss charges, like making a personality or psychological assessment of the guy for court, or decide what his punishment should be, etc). I don't know that I would be any good at it. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Omar Khadr From: Charmion Date: 06 Nov 10 - 10:54 AM This case disturbs me because it shows that the Canadian government will ignore its own official statements and policies to avoid a confrontation with our enormously important ally to the south. The treatment Omar Khadr received was, is and continues to be counter to every standard of Canadian criminal law, not to speak of our internation pronouncements on torture and the employment of child soldiers. Worse, Mr. Khadr has endured eight years of very hard time, an experience that will make it very difficult for him to rehabilitate himself, let alone allow the state to do so. The death penalty was never on the table, so one day Mr. Khadr will be released from custody. What sort of person will he be then? If he is a monstrously angry and vengeful person when he eventually emerges from prison, the Canadian and American governments can share the credit. God knows, they're doing their best to achieve that objective. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Omar Khadr From: GUEST,999 Date: 06 Nov 10 - 11:01 AM Excellent post, Charmion. Very. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Omar Khadr From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 06 Nov 10 - 03:45 PM If Saddam had put a kid on trial for murder because he had killed one of his soldiers during the invasion of Kuwait, it would rightly have been seen as another example of his tyranny. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Omar Khadr From: gnu Date: 06 Nov 10 - 04:00 PM Hmmm... why was a 15 year old Canuck in Afghanistan building bombs? Kids eh? Golly gee gosh. I am not advocating our policy there. I have been against our involvement as evidenced in a number of posts. But that is not the deal here. The deal is... why was this boy there? Why was he building bombs and throwing grenades 8000 miles away from his country? |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Omar Khadr From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 06 Nov 10 - 04:05 PM For one thing, he'd been living there since he was nine. I think most kids of fifteen who had been living somewhere for six years would think of that as his country. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Omar Khadr From: 3refs Date: 06 Nov 10 - 04:50 PM His parents "USED" Canada!! They milked us for everything they could, had a child born in Canada, for nothing more than the piece of paper that states Place of Birth: CANADA. He was convicted of killing an unarmed Medic, U.S. Sgt. 1st Class Christopher Speer, let's not forget him! "Happy to be making bombs that blow up American soldiers to collect reward money"! It helped him to think about that, when he felt sorry for himself. Doesn't really sound like just another 15yr old kid to me. How are we going to rehab a person who is so entrenched in his religion? His cause, is a "Holy Cause", except for the cash part! |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Omar Khadr From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 06 Nov 10 - 05:10 PM So what did Omar Khadr do wrong? In the course of a fire-fight he killed one of the Americans who had attacked the village in which he was living and who had invaded the country in which he had grown up (insofar as a 15 year old boy can be said to have grown up). In the course of the fight, Omar was himself shot twice, and permanently blinded in one eye. Sad, but in no way criminal, neither on his part nor on the part of the soldier who shot him. People get killed when they invade countries, and people get killed fighting against such invaders. And all this has nothing to do with the rights and wrongs of the invasion. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Omar Khadr From: gnu Date: 06 Nov 10 - 07:57 PM "And all this has nothing to do with the rights and wrongs of the invasion." Right. That's what I said. But, I asked, "WTF was he doing there and why?" Nobody seems to want to explain that. Perhaps it's because the answer is ??? Haahhhhhh... nevermind... I doubt he will make it to Canada. A year in a US prison? He'll likely not cross the border vertically. There's yer plea bargain. A politically correct solution for a dead man walking. It's all so sad. The poor lad is a victim of greed and corruption. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Omar Khadr From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 06 Nov 10 - 08:06 PM He was in Afghanistan because that was where he lived. He'd been taken there by his family when he was nine, six years before he was involved in this fighting in which various people on the sides were killed or wounded. People move around from country to country for all kinds of reasons, and they normally take their children with them. They don't actually get much say in it generally. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Omar Khadr From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 06 Nov 10 - 08:07 PM He was in Afghanistan because that was where he lived. He'd been taken there by his family when he was nine, six years before he was involved in this fighting in which various people on both sides were killed or wounded. People move around from country to country for all kinds of reasons, and they normally take their children with them. They don't actually get much say in it generally. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Omar Khadr From: meself Date: 06 Nov 10 - 11:55 PM "permanently blinded in one eye" I believe you're confusing him here with an American soldier who was blinded in one eye by the grenade that Kadhr may or may not have thrown. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Omar Khadr From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 07 Nov 10 - 07:37 AM From here "When the dust cleared, OC-1 saw Khadr crouched on his knees facing away from the action and wounded by shrapnel that had just permanently blinded his left eye,[45] and shot him twice in the back.[44]" I took it that "his left eye" referred to Khadr rather than "OC-1", but maybe I was wrong. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Omar Khadr From: GUEST,999 Date: 07 Nov 10 - 10:06 AM Slow down this horse. There was conflicting testimony regarding the grenade. I wouldn`t trust the little fucker with a used condom, but then nor would I trust American military procedures. Eight years and he hasn`t been convicted of a damned thing. IMO, the worst offender in this whole mess is Canada`s Stephen Harper. That asshole has zero for cajones and he`s become an embarrassment to this country I call home. Fuck Bush, Obama AND Harper, bastard circle jerkers. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Omar Khadr From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 07 Nov 10 - 11:28 AM And what is he supposed to have done wrong? There was a war on, and a battle on, and he is supposed to have killed a soldier on the other side. Since when did that become murder? |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Omar Khadr From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 07 Nov 10 - 12:32 PM There was a war on? Not between Afghanistan and ISAF. Most Afghans took no part and welcomed ISAF. The war is between Al Q. (who declared it and launched the 9/11 attack among others), and ISAF and the Afgham national forces. Shame on Al Q for using kids to fight for their despicable beliefs. (Do you support any of those beliefs McG.?) POWs are normally incarcerated until hostilities cease. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Omar Khadr From: meself Date: 07 Nov 10 - 12:32 PM Sorry, I guess I was the one confused: while a Sgt Morris lost his right eye, Khadr apparently has lost the vision in his left eye. I must have forgotten about that. That Wiki article, 3 posts up, is sobering reading. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Omar Khadr From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 07 Nov 10 - 02:29 PM So it wasn't a war, and it still isn't, the same way the fighting in Afghanistan with the Soviets wasn't a war, and Vietnam wasn't a war, and Korea wasn't a war. There aren't any wars these days, isn'tb that great... Just a lot of people going round playing soldiers. A pity people still get killed. And a pity this child got caught up in the fighting, in which he may have taken part, lost an eye, was shot twice in the back and was then locked up for eight years, very likely tortured, and sentenced to 40 years in prison after all that. The amazing thing is he is still alive: Entering the alleyway, OC-1 saw two dead men with a damaged AK-47 buried in rubble who he believed had been killed in the airstrikes,[44] and confirmed that the man he had shot was dead. Moving back to Khadr, OC-1 tapped the motionless youth's eye, confirming that he was still alive... Khadr was given on-site medical attention, during which time he repeatedly asked the medics to kill him, surprising them with his English. An officer present later recorded in his diary that he was about to tell his Private Second Class to kill the wounded Khadr, when Delta Force soldiers ordered them not to harm the prisoner.[60] |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Omar Khadr From: meself Date: 08 Nov 10 - 12:31 AM Apparently it's okay to murder your prisoners - unless, of course, someone tells you not to. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Omar Khadr From: Beer Date: 08 Nov 10 - 12:52 AM What were you doing at 15? I was shooting birds with my Daisey BB gun and wanting to get laid. I was also buying a cigarette for 2 cents and going to our local high school dance learning to jive. What has this young man now in his early 20ies got to remember as his most important time in his life. I say this because I truly believe that your teenage years are the ones you remember the most as you get older. I think we have in a way developed in a lab a person that we have no idea what we have created. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Omar Khadr From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 08 Nov 10 - 03:29 AM It was a war McG. A war declared on the West by Al Q. "And a pity this child got caught up in the fighting," He was not "caught up in the fighting." He was a trained, equipped and paid fighter. Al Q find it acceptable to use children as cannon fodder. Another of their despicable beliefs. Do they have any redeeming features? Do we have any choice but to fight back against them? What should be done with captured Al Q fighters? |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Omar Khadr From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 08 Nov 10 - 05:52 AM Kids of fifteen may think they are grown up. They are still children. There are no redeeming features to the abuse of children. Al Qaeda and the US authorities have jointly been guilty of the abuse of this child. Even aside from this, the killing of which he is accused was not such as to justify a charge of murder, even if he had been an adult. Not unless all the killings on that day by both sides were murder. If this had been a story about something the Russians had done in the course of their war in Afghanistan, I somehow doubt if Keith would think that it deserved defending. What should be done with captured Al Qaeda fighters? They should be treated as prisoners of war in accordance with the Geneva Conventions. In the case of children they should be recognised as victims of war with special arrangements for rehabilitation. The treatment of Omar Khadr has been and continues to be shameful. So are attempts to justify it. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Omar Khadr From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 08 Nov 10 - 06:06 AM I do not attempt to justify it. If treated as Geneva Convention POWs they would be incarcerated until the end of hostilities. That could be a vey long sentence. Al Q, as you say, abused this boy, using him as a fighter. As a result of that abuse, US forces were put in a position of having to deal with him. If released he would go back to killing them. So what to do? (The Russians would have killed him. They had no Guantanamo equivalent.) |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Omar Khadr From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 08 Nov 10 - 07:16 AM In this particular case the US could have passed the problem of what to do to the Canadian government, since the child was a Canadian citizen. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Omar Khadr From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 08 Nov 10 - 07:55 AM Or passed it to the country where he had been living for 6 years since he was 9? He would prefer the infidel I think. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Omar Khadr From: Teribus Date: 08 Nov 10 - 07:59 AM MGOH - What invasion of Afghanistan?? Care to tell me when it happened?? And remember we are talking about a land-locked country two-and-a-half times the size of France witha population of 32 million people. Here is an example of an invasion Kevin - 24th December, 1979 - Units comprising the USSR's 40th Army numbering 154,000 men entered Afghanistan, a unit consisting of 700 KGB troops flew to Kabul stormed the President's Palace and executed the President of Afghanistan. The US assisted the Northern Alliance in their war against the Taleban, just as the Taleban were assisted in their war against the Northern Alliance by the Pakistani Government - Where is all your outrage at the Pakistani Invasion of Afghanistan? - After all Kevin you cannot have it both ways. Troops operating in Afghanistan now are UN-ISAF troops assisting the elected Government of Afghanistan at their specific request. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Omar Khadr From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 08 Nov 10 - 08:37 AM I can't see how discussion about the rights and wrongs of the various military actions in Afghanistan over the years are in any way relevant to the case of Omar Khadr. If he'd been charged with murder for killing a member of the Taliban or of Al Qaeda in similar circumstances I'd see that also as unjust. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Omar Khadr From: Teribus Date: 08 Nov 10 - 12:21 PM British subject caught during the war fighting for the opposition, and I mean caught fighting in the frontline sighting and firing on British troops or the allies of British troops would be guilty of treason, he would not under any circumstances be treated as a Prisoner of War. Omar Khadr was caught in exactly those circumstances - He is bloody lucky to be walking away from this with his life. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Omar Khadr From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 08 Nov 10 - 01:21 PM He wasn't charged with treason by a Canadian court. He was charged with murder, in an American court. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Omar Khadr From: Teribus Date: 08 Nov 10 - 05:14 PM Like I said Kevin he was lucky Now Kevin I will ask you again - When did the USA invade Afghanistan?? I mean you must have at least a date for this invasion. I can come up for a date on which the USA decided to assist and support the Northern Alliance in their civil war against the Pakistani supported and supplied Taleban. But I can tell you this Kevin with absolute certainty - there was never any US invasion of Afghanistan - It is a dearly clung to myth of the left. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Omar Khadr From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 08 Nov 10 - 05:42 PM If you want to talk about stuff like "When did the USA invade Afghanistan??", Teribus, start another thread about it instead of trying to drift off-topic. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Omar Khadr From: gnu Date: 08 Nov 10 - 05:47 PM McGrath... ``People move around from country to country for all kinds of reasons, and they normally take their children with them. They don't actually get much say in it generally.`` Normally, they bring them back. Unless they are terrorists. Or, at the very least, unfit parents. Canuck citizen my ass. Canuck citizens do not make bombs and do not fight Canucks or their allies. Yes... he was just a boy and he should not have been there. But this bullshit about the parents not being responsible yet Canucks and Yanks being responsible for what happened to him is garbage. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Omar Khadr From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 08 Nov 10 - 06:26 PM Obviously the parents were responsible for his being there in Afghanistan. But the boy wasn't. Children live where their parents take them. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Omar Khadr From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 09 Nov 10 - 02:54 AM McG, it was you you raised the issue of invasion in your first post. "If you invade another country you should expect that people living there may feel entitled to resist violently" It is valid to challenge that contention within the thread. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Omar Khadr From: Teribus Date: 09 Nov 10 - 11:13 AM Thanks Keith saved me from making exactly the same point myself. If they cannot provide the date of this so-called "Invasion" then the whole premise upon which their arguments are based collapses. I have never yet heard anything from MGOH denouncing the Pakistani "invasion of Afghanistan" and if he does not think that they did invade Afghanistan then on the same terms neither did the USA. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Omar Khadr From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 09 Nov 10 - 12:56 PM I use "invasion" as a neutral term to mean what happens when a foreign army moves in and sets out to displace the existing regime. I don't use it to imply anything about whether it's a good thing to happen or a bad thing. The Germans invaded France in 1949, the Allies invaded Germany in 1945. The former was a bad thing and an unjust invasion, the latter, though tragic, was a good thing to happen, and a just invasion. But in both cases it would have been wrong to prosecute people taking part in resisting those invasions for murder. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Omar Khadr From: Charmion Date: 09 Nov 10 - 02:09 PM Slip of the finger there, McGrath -- 1940, not '49! It's foolish to argue about what's murder and what isn't when the whole tribunal has a distinctly marsupial character. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Omar Khadr From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 09 Nov 10 - 02:14 PM That's unfair to marsupials... |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Omar Khadr From: gnu Date: 09 Nov 10 - 02:19 PM I'd just like to clarify one last time that I find it truly sad that this boy has endured injustices. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Omar Khadr From: Charmion Date: 09 Nov 10 - 02:28 PM You got it, gnuzer. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Omar Khadr From: Teribus Date: 09 Nov 10 - 06:00 PM "I use "invasion" as a neutral term to mean what happens when a foreign army moves in and sets out to displace the existing regime." Ah so Pakistan did "invade" Afghanistan, whereas the USA who were assisting the internatioanlly recognised Government of Afghanistan were not. Remember that from 1989 to 1992 a "Civil War" raged in Afghanistan but in 1992 a Government was formed from ex-Mujahideen Warlords and the UN recognised it. In 1994 backed by the Pakistani Government, Army and ISI the Taleban reignited the "Civil War" which was still ongoing at the time of the 9/11 attacks. The USA agreed to provide assistance to the internationally recognised Afghan Government and a fellow member of the UN. In short Kevin there was NO U.S. INVASION |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Omar Khadr From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 09 Nov 10 - 06:30 PM Of course there was no invasion, Teribus. There there... |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Omar Khadr From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 10 Nov 10 - 07:06 AM Just so McG. Not an invasion. Afghans were participants. It was an operation to deal with Al Qaeda, a recognised terrorist organisation that proudly admits the murder of thousands of ordinary civilian people and children. Omar and his mates were not resisting invaders of their country. They were fighting for a terrorist group, making them terrorists not soldiers. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Omar Khadr From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 10 Nov 10 - 10:09 AM I've explained that I use the term "invasion" in a completely neutral sense. Foreign military forces move in to help overthrow a de facto regime - I call that an invasion, and so do most people. But call it something else. The point is that what Omar Kadhr is accused of cannot justifiably be called "murder". This wasn't a terrorist action, it was a military engagement carried out by American forces against people who had been identified as enemy in which there were casualties on both sides. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Omar Khadr From: GUEST,keith A Date: 10 Nov 10 - 03:50 PM The business of Al Qaeda is terrorism. They engage in acts of terror against civilian targets. Omar is accused of training and operating for and with them. If a terrorist resists the conventional force sent to curtail his illegal terrorist actions, does he cease to be a terrorist? |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Omar Khadr From: Teribus Date: 10 Nov 10 - 04:05 PM Foreign military forces move in to help overthrow a de facto regime - So that fits the bill for the Pakistani's "This wasn't a terrorist action, it was a military engagement carried out by American forces against people who had been identified as enemy in which there were casualties on both sides. No MGOH it was a group of terrorist murderers who got caught, they are neither uniformed, nor do they constitute a formally defence force of any recognised Government, so they are not classified as "soldiers" under the terms of the Geneva Convention, so have no status as Prisoners of War. Interested to know MGOH at what age did you consider that you knew the difference between right and wrong. If you didn't know it by the age of 15, then by Christ was your upbringing a failure. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Omar Khadr From: gnu Date: 10 Nov 10 - 04:15 PM kieth A... "Omar is accused of training and operating for and with them." Accused? There is video of him making bombs. That's not "accused". That's guilty. Once again... the boy should never have been placed in that position. I HAVE to keep stressing that. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Omar Khadr From: GUEST,999 Date: 10 Nov 10 - 04:18 PM You people have convinced me that the shape and size of the Vietnam peace table was important. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Omar Khadr From: gnu Date: 10 Nov 10 - 04:21 PM Care to elaborate 999? |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Omar Khadr From: meself Date: 10 Nov 10 - 04:39 PM So ... the boy's "upbringing was a failure". Isn't that exactly the point? He was brought up to believe that what his parents told him was right, and like a good fifteen-year-old boy, he acted accordingly. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Omar Khadr From: gnu Date: 10 Nov 10 - 06:19 PM 15? I thought he was 9 when they abandoned him. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Omar Khadr From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 10 Nov 10 - 07:10 PM I repeat: "This wasn't a terrorist action, it was a military engagement carried out by American forces against people who had been identified as enemy in which there were casualties on both sides. Whether or not the people involved may have carried out terrorist actions in the past, or had plans to carry out terrorist actions in the future, or were associated with other people who had carried out terrrorist actions does not affect the truth of that statement. Killing a member of an attacking force in those circumstances, in the course of a fire-fight lasting four hours, cannot in justice be termed murder. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Omar Khadr From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 11 Nov 10 - 03:20 AM Just give them a hug and let them go. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Omar Khadr From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 11 Nov 10 - 08:56 AM Just about as inappropriate as what they did do, and equally stupid. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Omar Khadr From: GUEST,Keith A Date: 11 Nov 10 - 01:52 PM Your only suggestion so far has been to treat them as POWs. That would mean indefinite incarceration, unless an exchange could be arranged. The latter unlikely as Al Q like to behead their prisoners on line for the masturbatory delectation of Islamists everywhere. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Omar Khadr From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 11 Nov 10 - 02:07 PM This thread is about what happened to a particular child who was alleged to have taken part in fighting in a conflict created by adults. The right thing to do would have been to pass the responsibility for dealing with him to some country which had no involvement in the conflict. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Omar Khadr From: bobad Date: 11 Nov 10 - 02:13 PM I didn't consider myself a child at 15. In Canada a 14 year old has the right to leave home without their parent's consent. Calling a 15 year old a child is akin to calling a fetus a baby IMO. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Omar Khadr From: meself Date: 11 Nov 10 - 02:26 PM But in criminal matters, a 15-year-old is charged as a Young Offender, or Juvenile, not as an Adult. It is recognized that it is simply unfair to apply adult law to a 15-year-old. I didn't consider myself a child at 15, either - but looking back, I can see that I sure wasn't an adult. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Omar Khadr From: GUEST,Keith A Date: 11 Nov 10 - 02:58 PM McG, suppose he had been handed over to some such country as Canada. He would be guilty of no crime there. No charge could be brought. What would they do with him. His only ambition in life is to kill westerners. Any foster family would be likely to all wake up dead one morning. Would you have him stay with your family? A care home would be the same opportunity for him. He would need to be kept secure but legally he could not be. Any more suggestions Kevin? |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Omar Khadr From: bobad Date: 11 Nov 10 - 03:06 PM meself, do the courts in Canada not have the option of trying and sentencing juveniles convicted of serious crimes as adults. It seems to me that this has been done in the past though I am not sure if this is, in fact, the case. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Omar Khadr From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 11 Nov 10 - 03:16 PM For a start "His only ambition in life is to kill westerners" is something you dreamed up, since there is no evidence whatsoever that it is true. I would suspect that both as a 15 year old back then and as an adult now he might have lots of ambitions in life, and that very likely these do not include killing "westerners" at random. Canada would of course have been a more appropriate place than the USA for him to be charged with and tried (as a juvenile) or any crimes of which he was accused, since he is a Canadian citizen. However before that could happen the most appropriate legal procedure would probably have been to apply for him to be made a Ward of Court. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Omar Khadr From: meself Date: 11 Nov 10 - 03:30 PM "do the courts in Canada not have the option of trying and sentencing juveniles convicted of serious crimes as adults" Yes, they do - although the logic, as much as I can follow it, strikes me as inconsistent. But that aside, being tried in a Canadian criminal court as an adult would be vastly preferable to sitting for eight years without trial in Guantanamo, then being put through an extremely questionable judicial process, and then being sentenced to another eight years. I wonder if a juvenile - whether tried as a juvenile or adult - has ever been sentenced to sixteen years for murder in Canada? I doubt it .... |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Omar Khadr From: GUEST,keith A Date: 11 Nov 10 - 04:06 PM He had trained and fought as a member of Al Qaeda. Killing unbelievers is their main objective. They had succeeded in instilling in him the will to fight to the death against impossible odds with no fear of death. I say that that is good evidence that killing westerners was indeed his main ambition in life. You could make him a ward of court, but you could not lock him up. Would you want him sleeping in your house Kevin? Where would you put him? |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Omar Khadr From: Teribus Date: 12 Nov 10 - 01:28 AM "For a start "His only ambition in life is to kill westerners" is something you dreamed up, since there is no evidence whatsoever that it is true." You have obviously not read Osama bin Laden's fatwa of 1996 then Kevin? Like pirates you don't capture these people you kill them. |
