BS: Pope 'condones condom use in some cases

Subject: BS: Pope 'condones condom use in some cases
From: Arthur_itus
Date: 20 Nov 10 - 01:20 PM

There you go. If you are Catholic and are in the habit of visiting prostitutes for the purpose of having sex, whoopee!

You can now use a condom.

Wow the mind boggles.


Quote from BBC News

Pope Benedict XVI is reported to have said the use of condoms is acceptable "in certain cases".

In a book due to be published on Tuesday, he said they could reduce the risk of infection with HIV, such as for a prostitute.

The pontiff is reported to have made the comments in an interview with a German journalist. The Vatican newspaper ran excerpts on Saturday.

The comments appear to soften the Roman Catholic Church's hardline stance.

Unquote

Subject: RE: BS: Pope 'condones condom use in some cases
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 20 Nov 10 - 01:22 PM

But not for contraception. For millions of women in developing countries the Catholic-induced misery goes on.

Subject: RE: BS: Pope 'condones condom use in some cases
From: Desert Dancer
Date: 20 Nov 10 - 01:26 PM

via NPR:

Popes Says Condoms Can Be Used In Some Cases

by The Associated Press
November 20, 2010

Pope Benedict XVI says in a new book that the use of condoms can be justified in some cases, such as for male prostitutes seeking to prevent the spread of HIV.

The pontiff made the comments in a book-length interview with a German journalist, Light of the World: The Pope, the Church and the Signs of the Times. The Vatican newspaper ran excerpts of the book Saturday.

Church teaching has long opposed condoms since they're a form of artificial contraception. The Vatican has been harshly criticized for its position given the AIDS crisis.

Benedict said that for male prostitutes — for whom contraception isn't a central issue — condoms are not a moral solution. But he said they could be justified "in the intention of reducing the risk of infection."

---

Well, that's a relief then.

What a strange situation.

~ Becky

Subject: RE: BS: Pope 'condones condom use in some cases
From: GUEST,cs
Date: 20 Nov 10 - 01:32 PM

What about women who would like the opportunity to "reduce the risk of infection" from their prostitute visiting husbands?

Subject: RE: BS: Pope 'condones condom use in some cases
From: DMcG
Date: 20 Nov 10 - 01:50 PM

However faultering, a step in the right direction seems a good thing to be encouraged, rather than complaining he hasn't gone as far as you might wish. Much, much, much more to do yet of course.

Subject: RE: BS: Pope 'condones condom use in some cases
From: Arthur_itus
Date: 20 Nov 10 - 02:10 PM

Does it mean all priests can use condom's now?

Reminds me of this old joke

One day, a group of 12 priests were going to be tried for their purity.

They were to stand in a row, naked with bells tied on their groins and let a beautiful, naked lady dance in front of them.

When the time came, the dancer danced in front of the first priest. His bell doesn't so much as jingle. The same with the second, the third, and all the way to the last priest, the 12th.

When the dancer danced in front of him, his bell rang so hard it fell off to the floor. Embarrased, he bent down to pick it up.







And then all the other bells started ringing.

LMAO

Subject: RE: BS: Pope 'condones condom use in some cases
From: olddude
Date: 20 Nov 10 - 02:15 PM

Sarah Palin
now that we covered the religion I thought I would add the politics so we can enjoy another one ...

yup don't need to read it then olddude .. correct nor any more wasted time visiting here

Christ!

Subject: RE: BS: Pope 'condones condom use in some cases
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 20 Nov 10 - 04:09 PM

Nothing new in this really. Official disapproval by the Church of the use of condoms has been as contraceptives. Obviously this isn't relevant in situations where conception is in any case impossible, where the only reason for using them is as a prophylactic,to reduce the risk of infection.

Subject: RE: BS: Pope 'condones condom use in some cases
From: GUEST,Alan Whitle
Date: 20 Nov 10 - 04:19 PM

no word about water bombs then.....?

Subject: RE: BS: Pope 'condones condom use in some cases
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 20 Nov 10 - 04:25 PM

Never been any ban on using them as water bombs or balloons, I'm afraid. Or as headgear.

Subject: RE: BS: Pope 'condones condom use in some cases
From: Smokey.
Date: 20 Nov 10 - 04:26 PM

Not before time..

I don't suppose the elimination of forensic evidence in child abuse cases was mentioned?

Subject: RE: BS: Pope 'condones condom use in some cases
From: Donuel
Date: 20 Nov 10 - 05:13 PM

wut if yer wife is a ho? does the Pope condom OK still apply?


hmm... Pope condoms - do they have a big hat on the end.




Cardinal condoms -- bright red/

Subject: RE: BS: Pope 'condones condom use in some cases
From: Smokey.
Date: 20 Nov 10 - 06:23 PM

Incense flavoured?

Subject: RE: BS: Pope 'condones condom use in some cases
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 20 Nov 10 - 06:54 PM

"Nothing new in this really. Official disapproval by the Church of the use of condoms has been as contraceptives. Obviously this isn't relevant in situations where conception is in any case impossible, where the only reason for using them is as a prophylactic,to reduce the risk of infection. "

Actually, there is sopmething radically new - the RC has been openly homophobic, whilst protecting the internal homopedophiles - to actually acknowledge that homosexuals (male only!) may have a conceded right to do what the church has been condemning them for, is absolutely amazing!

Subject: RE: BS: Pope 'condones condom use in some cases
From: kendall
Date: 20 Nov 10 - 07:18 PM

Will they ever come out of the dark ages?

Subject: RE: BS: Pope 'condones condom use in some cases
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 20 Nov 10 - 07:31 PM

No.

Subject: RE: BS: Pope 'condones condom use in some cases
From: Bee-dubya-ell
Date: 20 Nov 10 - 07:56 PM

The only form of sex the Church officially condones penile-vaginal intercourse within marriage. Anything else is taboo and you're going to Hell for doin' it. So, if gays, prostitutes, adulterers, fornicators, pederasts, cunnilinguists and fellators are all damned anyway, why should the Pope give a shit if they use condoms?

Subject: RE: BS: Pope 'condones condom use in some cases
From: Joe Offer
Date: 20 Nov 10 - 08:11 PM

Yes, if you see things only in absolutes, the statement makes no sense at all. That's one of the reasons why the Catholic Church avoided giving any sort of approval to condoms in the first place. Now that they've bowed to common sense and admitted that condoms can prevent disease, the statement will be distorted in all sorts of ways.
If you want to understand this pope, you have to listen to his entire statements, not just sound bites. He's actually quite rational in what he says, if you take the time to follow his thinking.
This New York Times article will give somewhat of an idea.

The churches have to uphold the ideal of a faithful sexual relationship within the context of marriage - you really can't fault them for wanting to do that. And really, in our heart of hearts we all know that a faithful marriage and a stable family is a good thing.

But what if the ideal isn't possible? Well, then, you have to do what you can to deal with reality and still respect the ideal. You have to balance the ideal with common sense.

Don't expect churches to promote promiscuity, but what if promiscuity is the reality? Well, then, there is a great risk of the spread of sexually-transmitted disease (STD); and morality demands that at the very least, something must be done to prevent STD epidemics. In that case, condoms would certainly be helpful.

For most of its history, the Catholic Church has attempted to avoid moral absolutism; and yet many forces within and outside the church have tried to box the church into a corner of absolutism. In the Christian faith, there are really only two moral absolutes: love God above all things, and love your neighbor as you love yourself. To make a moral decision, you have to consider all the factors in the light of these two principles, and temper it all with a lot of common sense.

Now, I suppose you could find fault with Catholic opposition to birth control. From an absolutist position, I would suppose you would be correct. But somehow, a huge number of Catholic families get along without procreating huge numbers of children. I suppose every parish has a couple of families with lots and lots of kids, but that's unusual in cultures where people have small families. In our parish, we have one family with six kids (four are adopted) and one with four (all adopted); and a couple very conservative, severe families that just keep having kids. All the others have two or three kids, which seems to me to be fairly responsible population control.

So, what's the deal here? Well, maybe Catholic families have learned to live by rational principles, rather than by blind moral absolutes. This is a brief summary of the moral theology I was taught in a Catholic seminary in the 1960s - which really isn't a whole lot different from the way it was taught for centuries before. A lot of people (including a lot of priests and bishops) aren't smart enough to realize the balance and common sense that is involved in making a moral decision, and that's where people get bound up in moral absolutes.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Pope 'condones condom use in some cases
From: Joe_F
Date: 20 Nov 10 - 08:21 PM

In my youth (1950s), condoms in the U.S. said "sold for the prevention of disease" on the label. This was to avoid the imputation that they were contraceptives, which would have been illegal. The Pope has evidently caught up with that dodge.

Subject: RE: BS: Pope 'condones condom use in some cases
From: Ed T
Date: 20 Nov 10 - 08:55 PM

If the RC Pope claims to be Gods (or, Christ's) representative on Earth, is it unreasonable to expect that he would possess common sense, at least comparable to most RC parishoners?

Subject: RE: BS: Pope 'condones condom use in some cases
From: frogprince
Date: 20 Nov 10 - 09:05 PM

If the Pope, or anyone else, wants to try to be a representative of Christ on earth, in terms of bringing Christian compassion into the world, and expressing Christian values, that's fine with me. But when the Pope, or any Protestant, tries to claim authority to define Christianity, or to enforce his concept of Christianity, he can take it and shove it for all of me.

Subject: RE: BS: Pope 'condones condom use in some cases
From: Ed T
Date: 20 Nov 10 - 09:17 PM

frogprince

Spoken like a Prince, not a Frog.:)

Subject: RE: BS: Pope 'condones condom use in some cases
From: Donuel
Date: 20 Nov 10 - 09:26 PM

See we had fun making pithy jokes and inane comments tinged with baseless bigotry, then Joe has to write professionally with concise insight and clarity by raising the issue to the most extreme illumination of understanding.

Jeez, What is he trying to do, set a good example of self expression or what?

Subject: RE: BS: Pope 'condones condom use in some cases
From: Joe Offer
Date: 20 Nov 10 - 09:35 PM

The Pope and bishops are supposed to discern the "sensus fidelium," the wisdom of all faithful people. Whether that happens in actuality, is a matter for debate. Another matter for debate is whether the Pope and bishops respect their professed principle of "collegiality" - shared decision-making.
My personal opinion is that the Pope and bishops have not always performed satisfactorily in these areas (and they really piss me off sometimes) - but they're not the absolute dictators that some people make them out to be. And Catholics do not follow them as blindly as many people may think. Disdain for church authority is a longstanding tradition in the Catholic Church, particularly in places where the Romance languages are spoken. American and Northern European Catholics are catching up with that "take it with a grain of salt" mentality, but I don't think they're as cynical about church authorities as, say, the Italians.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Pope 'condones condom use in some cases
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 20 Nov 10 - 11:14 PM

"All the others have two or three kids, which seems to me to be fairly responsible population control."

It may seem so - but the maths say that such an increase rate, with people living into their 80/90s will cause the world population to reach an unsustainable level - what with 6 billion already, and rapidly increasing, calculations tend towards only 2 billion is sustainable currently - all we need is to have a few big volcanoes erupt and blanket the sky again, and the hard winters we will experience again will hurt even more than they did in the past.

Well, Joe, I follow your thinking... but ... "He's actually quite rational in what he says, if you take the time to follow his thinking."

Well, the logic and rationalising process was pretty much the same a few hundred years ago when some poor bugger tried to say, just to make the maths easier, that the earth went around the sun .... and interestingly enough, the surviving mechanical machines form the Greeks point to them understanding retrograde planetary motion well enough to suggest they may have suspected that the earth was not the centre ... :-)

I disagree with your claim about no absolutism, the RC did absolutely deny condoms, now accepting "that condom use can be justified in some cases to help stop the spread of AIDS, the first Vatican exception to a long-held policy condemning condom use" is a step away from absolutism ... seems to me :-)

"the Roman Catholic Church does not see condoms as "a real or moral solution,"" - er, what, the pope is thus suggesting an UNREAL or IMMORAL solution?!!!!! Some critics have said that denying condoms was in itself unrealistic and unreal ... :-) Wait on, he IS saying that! QUOTE "It's very carefully qualified," he said. "It would be wrong to say, 'Pope Approves Condoms.' He's saying it's immoral but ... UNQUOTE ... So we now have The Infallible One saying that it is ok to act immorally, if we can justify it later on ... wibble, wibble wibble ... ok so taking that as a precedent, it's ok to rob a bank, if .... hmmm, need to give that one a bit more thought ....


"The pope made clear that he considered the use of condoms a last resort " - he was secular in his youth, it sounds .... :-)


I'm sorry, but I'm not really prepared to listen much to the ravings of someone who 'pointed to a "readiness for aggression" among those who criticized him for revoking the excommunication of a bishop who denied the scope of the Holocaust', a criticism that would seem reasonable...

"if he did not feel up to the task of being pope, he would resign. " - never heard of it happening before ...

I read the whole article - sounds like he is going senile and irrational to me...

Subject: RE: BS: Pope 'condones condom use in some cases
From: Joe Offer
Date: 21 Nov 10 - 12:25 AM

Foolestroupe, the New York Times article summarizes a book-length interview. To get an understanding of what he said, you need to read at least a few pages on any given topic.

I don't believe you'll find condoms mentioned anywhere in official Catholic doctrine. You certainly won't hear them mentioned in the Catechism of the Catholic Church, and only rarely from the pulpit. There has been mention made of condoms in the interpretation of doctrine, but that's on a far less binding level.

And considering that people are having children at an older age and some aren't having children at all, and some children die early, I would think it wouldn't be all that bad a thing for people to have freedom of choice to have two or three children, if that's what they wish.

Why do we have to live by absolutes? The current Conventional Wisdom is that unless another person is Absolutely Right from my perspective, I have no obligation to accord him or her any respect. I disagree - I find it better to listen to everyone, and extract the wisdom from what each person has to say.

-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: BS: Pope 'condones condom use in some cases
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Nov 10 - 04:31 AM

Given the recent history of the church, it seems to me a case of breathtaking arrogance that the church should have the nerve to pontificate (pun intended) on sexual matters - "When will they ever learn"?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Pope 'condones condom use in some cases
From: Arthur_itus
Date: 21 Nov 10 - 04:47 AM

Just think, if the Catholic Church allowed the use of condoms for everybody, just think how it would help the makers of such things. Surely that would be good for the economy in many ways. Bring it on.

Subject: RE: BS: Pope 'condones condom use in some cases
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 21 Nov 10 - 06:01 AM

"The current Conventional Wisdom is that unless another person is Absolutely Right from my perspective"

Ah. but that IS the point - if you claim to follow that religion strand, He IS the Acme of Absolute Right and Correctness - He Pontificated so Himself - in a previous incarnation ....

And now you may glimpse why when much younger I found it difficult to claim to be a follower of an Absolute Mythical Magical Invisible Sky Fairy who one was supposed to obey absolutely, yet whose other followers insisted on being 'pragmatic' whenever it suited them, depending on which way the wind was blowing, and so I decided that it was actually easier for me to just cut out the middle man, and just be pragmatic for myself! :=)

The problem is that many people DO defer to the opinions of such a leader, when it suits them to blame someone else for their actions, better they should think for themselves...

Subject: RE: BS: Pope 'condones condom use in some cases
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 21 Nov 10 - 06:27 AM

I think like I'm assuming Joe is, the faithful marriage is something to be encouraged and there are problems with promiscuity.

That is in no way to say there may not be reason for contraception or to say that I personally agree with the RC stance on a priest being celibate.

As an attempted but failed believer, by current belief is whether you marry should be between you, your partner and God.

The one reservation I would have is (and my only ever sex I had was with a non Christian and it wound up one hell of a mess with her and bf in prison) is that those with this particular belief should seek others with the same belief.

Subject: RE: BS: Pope 'condones condom use in some cases
From: GUEST,Patsy
Date: 22 Nov 10 - 03:26 AM

Is the Pope really that niave to think that male prostitutes are the only ones who can carry HIV? He must be terribly sheltered or something. What about if a female prostitute is visited by a bi-sexual man? Who's to say that they are going to wear a condom? Surely he should have said all prostitutes. So in around about way he is saying that the risk of AIDS comes from homosexuality mainly or did I hear that wrong?

Subject: RE: BS: Pope 'condones condom use in some cases
From: Arthur_itus
Date: 22 Nov 10 - 04:53 AM

Quote from Wiki

The words abstinence and celibacy are often used interchangeably, but are different. Sexual abstinence is the absence of intercourse (even for an individual who is married), but celibacy is the avoidance of all forms of sexual activity (including, but not limited to, the state of marriage itself).

End of quote

I find it rather strange and unhealthy, to have a group of blokes called preists being celibate and doing it for somebody they have never seen in real life.

"celibacy is the avoidance of all forms of sexual activity"

How many priests out there, can honestly say they have never dealt with an urge in their life.

To be celibate for somebody you have never seen in real life, suggests doctrination of the mind, which to me is scary.
By all means follow your belief in a God, but don't doctrinate healthy human beings into being celibate. It's bound to go wrong.

However, I do support people who decide to be celibate, who have made that decision themselves without the intervention of religion or somebody warping their mind.

rubber ducky

Subject: RE: BS: Pope 'condones condom use in some cases
From: GUEST,Patsy
Date: 22 Nov 10 - 05:42 AM

So do I, it's not always to do with religion or sex some people choose celibacy in order to channel all their energy for a particular purpose such as writing, art or perhaps sport or doing good without being sidetracked.

Subject: RE: BS: Pope 'condones condom use in some cases
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 22 Nov 10 - 05:48 AM

Anyways, it isn't the male prostitute who needs to use a condom. It's the other feller. Is this allowed? I think we should be told.

Subject: RE: BS: Pope 'condones condom use in some cases
From: GUEST,Patsy
Date: 22 Nov 10 - 06:06 AM

That's what I mean Steve it is scary how niave the Pope is, perhaps someone should take him aside and explain who does what to whom.

Subject: RE: BS: Pope 'condones condom use in some cases
From: Brian May
Date: 22 Nov 10 - 08:07 AM

Shows where women fit in his view of things doesn't it?

I wonder if it runs to bishops and priests use when molesting the vulnerable in their flock . . .

Utterly outrageous!

The man is a fool and has rendered the Catholic Church another body blow (no pun intended).

Subject: RE: BS: Pope 'condones condom use in some cases
From: akenaton
Date: 22 Nov 10 - 08:35 AM

"So in around about way he is saying that the risk of AIDS comes from homosexuality mainly or did I hear that wrong?"

Patsy....I know you are pretty new to this forum, but if you would care to look up the latest CDC hiv figures, you will find that in the US and UK, homosexuals are 44 times more likely to contract hiv/aids than heteros

Sad, but true.

Subject: RE: BS: Pope 'condones condom use in some cases
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 22 Nov 10 - 08:42 AM

That is not the case in Africa. True, and even sadder.

Subject: RE: BS: Pope 'condones condom use in some cases
From: akenaton
Date: 22 Nov 10 - 08:53 AM

The African demographic is quite different, and the homo/ hetero ratio has never been properly determined.
However, my last post was for Patsy's information and I would rather not open the HIV debate again on this thread.

Subject: RE: BS: Pope 'condones condom use in some cases
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 22 Nov 10 - 09:02 AM

True, but there are an awful lot of Catholics in Africa and the Pope has an awful lot of influence there. The picture is indeed complicated but you wouldn't be on safe ground saying that HIV is predominantly an homosexual issue there.

Subject: RE: BS: Pope 'condones condom use in some cases
From: akenaton
Date: 22 Nov 10 - 09:37 AM

Yes Steve, but this is a very complex issue especially from a philosophical/theological viewpoint.

The kneejerk reactions we see above serve no one.

Subject: RE: BS: Pope 'condones condom use in some cases
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 22 Nov 10 - 10:06 AM

It's complex if the Pope wants to make it complex. The so-called kneejerk reactions happen to be what a lot of people actually think about the Pope and his ill-judged opinions, which have little to do with philosophy and a lot to do with control. And if it's a theological issue I would like to know precisely what he derives his authority from on this matter.

Subject: RE: BS: Pope 'condones condom use in some cases
From: akenaton
Date: 22 Nov 10 - 03:35 PM

As far as we know, one of the causes and means of spread of hiv is promiscuity....there may be other factors, but a proper medical inquiry has not yet taken place to determine them.
Encouraging family values and monogamy cuts
promiscuity rates. The use of condoms does not cut promiscuity, it may encourage it and users may under certain circumstances become careless
Taken to its logical conclusion, condom use can destroy or badly weaken humanity.
Do those who simply say that condom use is the answer to hiv/aids really think about what they are saying....the two behaviours do not compliment one another

Firstly we need a proper medical study into the homosexual/aids link, we need guidance on the abuse of sexuality, the use of condoms as a contraceptive and in the short term as infection control....but they are not the long term solution.

Subject: RE: BS: Pope 'condones condom use in some cases
From: Arthur_itus
Date: 22 Nov 10 - 03:38 PM

The Pope should join the ConDoms in the UK and then maybe they could put a tax on sex.

Subject: RE: BS: Pope 'condones condom use in some cases
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 22 Nov 10 - 06:54 PM

Yes, it's complicated. I don't deny it. But I smell a censorious rat when I read expressions such as family values and encouraging monogamy. Whatever different values to ours are practised in Africa, they were practised for millennia before AIDS came along. This is not an opportunity to attempt to impose western values on other people. And I don't know who you're thinking of when you refer to "those who simply say that condom use is the answer to hiv/aids." I want condoms to be just as available in Africa, free from moralising, as they are here. They are not the answer to HIV but they are part of the answer, and to a lot more than just HIV.

Subject: RE: BS: Pope 'condones condom use in some cases
From: GUEST,Patsy, should be working
Date: 23 Nov 10 - 07:46 AM

Then again there are those a very small (hopefully) minority that will spread it on purpose. Thank God it doesn't happen too often but there are the odd cases where the state of mind of an infected person has become so bitter and twisted then delibrately spreading the disease. Has he got an answer for that one? I am guessing that it is classed as a criminal act but how is the Pope going to stop someone thinking that way.

Subject: RE: BS: Pope 'condones condom use in some cases
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Nov 10 - 07:59 AM

Poster is Brian May
I was going to say the Pope is out of touch, but then realised that too, was dangerous ground as his practitioners have been doing a lot of that over the millenia.

I feel REALLY sad for all the poor souls who didn't report it, because 'who would believe them over the word of a 'man of the cloth'?

I still think the thrust of his statement (sorry) was very misplaced.

AKENATON - 'Kneejerk reactions' - damn right, it would appear that had they happened sooner, this lot of charlatans et al wouldn't have got away with what they did. That's predation of the worst kind, at least the other paedophiles can't hide behind an understanding bishop.

They're the ones that should be stoned, not some poor woman in Iran/Afghanistan or thereabouts.

Subject: RE: BS: Pope 'condones condom use in some cases
From: GUEST,Patsy
Date: 23 Nov 10 - 08:35 AM

Why can't people just be brave enough to say that it is Pope Benedict that has to go. Can a Pope be sacked? I am not a Catholic so I don't know if there is a procedure they follow if a Pope doesn't come up to scratch.

Subject: RE: BS: Pope 'condones condom use in some cases
From: akenaton
Date: 23 Nov 10 - 08:54 AM

Guest...I think you will find, that the majority of the abuse was not paedophilia.

The sexual abuse of teenage boys by a man is something different.

The cover up was a shame on the Catholic church, but try to get your facts right.

Subject: RE: BS: Pope 'condones condom use in some cases
From: Arthur_itus
Date: 23 Nov 10 - 11:09 AM

Latest comments from the Vatican as per BBC News

The Vatican has clarified Pope Benedict XVI's comments on condoms, saying their use by men and women to prevent HIV could be an act of "responsibility".

The clarification follows comments suggesting Pope accepted their use only in exceptional circumstances.

But the Vatican's senior spokesman said the key point was taking the life of the other person into consideration.

End of quote.

To me that opens it up completely.

It means that every who who is Catholic can now say "I could be at risk of HIV from my husband, because I don't know what he does in his spare time away from me. So we must use a condom in future"

or

From the husbands point of view "I must take the life of my wife into consideration. I think it's too much for her to deal with giving birth and might result in her death. So I must use a condom from now on"

Gay people/prostitutes etc can use similar arguments.

So there you have it. All Catholics can now use condoms.

Subject: RE: BS: Pope 'condones condom use in some cases
From: Arthur_itus
Date: 23 Nov 10 - 11:38 AM

"It means that every who who is Catholic can now say "I could be at risk of HIV from my husband, because I don't know what he does in his spare time away from me. So we must use a condom in future"
"

should have read

It means that every woman who is Catholic can now say "I could be at risk of HIV from my husband, because I don't know what he does in his spare time away from me. So we must use a condom in future"

Sorry about that.

Subject: RE: BS: Pope 'condones condom use in some cases
From: Stringsinger
Date: 23 Nov 10 - 12:13 PM

Notice it was "male" prostitutes. How about little boys?

Subject: RE: BS: Pope 'condones condom use in some cases
From: gnu
Date: 23 Nov 10 - 02:12 PM

HIV risk reducing pill.

Subject: RE: BS: Pope 'condones condom use in some cases
From: akenaton
Date: 23 Nov 10 - 03:27 PM

Dont you think it would be better in every way, if they just stopped having sex with multiple partners?

Subject: RE: BS: Pope 'condones condom use in some cases
From: Brian May
Date: 23 Nov 10 - 04:13 PM

Akenaton

It was me that was a Guest at work earlier.

Get my facts right? Do you think the truth is ever likely to come out?

Sex with mulitiple partners, there are many innocents who don't know the 'pedigree' of their partners - widows, widowers, partners marrying a divorcee etc etc

Your implication is that all multiple partner relationships is due to being promiscuous - pray tell me which of my examples above it that?

Judging by the Pope's office 'amplification', we (apart from Akenaton) aren't the only people who find the comment outrageous.

So the abuse of teenage boys (vulnerable kids to whom the priest was THE authority figure) is OK? It's not paedophilia then - so when is it, 12, 13, 14?

It was a 'shame on the Catholic church' - you my friend have a gift for understatement (actually I don't think we'd ever be friends, I'm quite fussy).

Arthur - yep, spot on, everyone is at risk, since there's all this promiscuity about.

Subject: RE: BS: Pope 'condones condom use in some cases
From: akenaton
Date: 23 Nov 10 - 04:32 PM

Well Brian I'm sorry you feel the need to be so personal, but most people seem to think that hiv is caused/passed on by promiscuity.
Why is there such a deviation between homo and hetero infection rates....are homosexuals really so much more promiscuous.

To the best of my knowledge, paedophilia is definined as the act of an adult being sexually aroused, or having sexual intercourse with a pre-pubescent child.

What was happening with the RC priests was simple homosexual assault.

Subject: RE: BS: Pope 'condones condom use in some cases
From: Joe Offer
Date: 23 Nov 10 - 06:54 PM

Patsy says:

Is the Pope really that niave to think that male prostitutes are the only ones who can carry HIV? He must be terribly sheltered or something. What about if a female prostitute is visited by a bi-sexual man? Who's to say that they are going to wear a condom? Surely he should have said all prostitutes. So in around about way he is saying that the risk of AIDS comes from homosexuality mainly or did I hear that wrong?

and later....

Why can't people just be brave enough to say that it is Pope Benedict that has to go. Can a Pope be sacked? I am not a Catholic so I don't know if there is a procedure they follow if a Pope doesn't come up to scratch.

Please remember that the statement about condoms is an excerpt from a book-length interview, not a complete doctrinal statement. No, of course the Pope isn't so naive as "to think to think that male prostitutes are the only ones who can carry HIV," and it's really quite foolhardy to attempt to make that sort of implication. The guy was a distinguished university professor, for heaven's sake. The male prostitute was proposed as an example where a condom could be used to prevent spread of disease, not a declaration that this would be the only situation where using a condom could be morally correct. The general idea is that the Pope conceded that condoms could be useful in preventing the spread of disease. The implication is that prevention of disease is a moral good, and that use of a condom to prevent disease could be morally right - apart from consideration of the morality of contraception or extramarital sex. As far as I can tell, further details have not been published. Still, it is an encouragement to hear that this pope will at least allow for the fact that condoms are effective in reducing the spread of disease.

I think that Pope Paul VI made a mistake by continuing the prohibition of "artificial contraceptives" when he promulgated the Humanae Vitae encyclical in 1968. That was a time when change was possible and necessary, and it appeared at the time that he was going to make that change. It didn't happen, and conservative Catholics still applaud his decision because they claim that widespread contraception has resulted in widespread promiscuity. The decision also found approval among Catholics in cultures that have taboos against contraception. Progressive Catholics have learned to follow their own consciences, especially in the bedroom. This was the first time in recent history that there was widespread dissent against papal teaching, and it helped a whole generation of Catholics to learn to think for themselves.

Church doctrines are very difficult to change. To be credible, changes in doctrine have to reflect the beliefs of the vast majority of believers. The time was right for a change in doctrine at the time of Paul VI, and then he made his declaration in a way that was very hard to contradict later on.

Now that the mood of lay Catholics has become distressingly conservative, I'm beginning to be happy that doctrine is so difficult to change. The 25-year reign of John Paul II could have been a lot harder on us progressives if he could have changed doctrine more easily.

The statement of Benedict about condoms is a very small step, but it is a significant advance in a church that moves with prodigious slowness. I was pleased and surprised that he made even this small concession, and I see it as confirmation of my impression that he is a reasonable and compassionate person. He has not changed the teaching on birth control, but neither has he gone out of his way to condemn anyone who practices birth control.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Pope 'condones condom use in some cases
From: Joe Offer
Date: 23 Nov 10 - 07:30 PM

To simplify things, I think that Benedict is saying, "Be good; and if you can't be good, be careful."


I don't think he's quite ready to subscribe to the third part of that statement, "If you can't be careful, name it after me." I don't think the Pope wants to see an upsurge of little HIV-infected Benedicts and Benedictas.


-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Pope 'condones condom use in some cases
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 23 Nov 10 - 07:53 PM

HIV is not passed on by promiscuity. It is passed on by someone who has it to someone who hasn't. Moralising at people who have "multiple sexual partners" or who are "promiscuous" is neither helpful nor accurate. The behaviours you criticise have been going on for millennia, and not just in third-world countries either, yet AIDS has been with us for just thirty years or so. Using AIDS to condemn behaviour you apparently disapprove of is just wrong.

What was happening with the RC priests was simple homosexual assault.

You are nit-picking. The majoriy of children who were sexually assaulted by priests were just that - children, minors, under-age, call them what you will. 12, 13, 14 years old and assaulted by people in powerful positions of trust. How you can possibly refer to that as "simple homosexual assault", as if it had happened between pissed blokes outside a gay bar on a Saturday night, is utterly beyond me.

Subject: RE: BS: Pope 'condones condom use in some cases
From: Smokey.
Date: 23 Nov 10 - 07:55 PM

as if it had happened between pissed blokes outside a gay bar on a Saturday night

That's taking 'going outside for a fag' a little too far, I think..

Subject: RE: BS: Pope 'condones condom use in some cases
From: Ed T
Date: 23 Nov 10 - 08:15 PM

A good, logical and compassionate response Steve.

Subject: RE: BS: Pope 'condones condom use in some cases
From: Smokey.
Date: 23 Nov 10 - 08:28 PM

It was indeed. Pardon my sense of humour, Steve.

Subject: RE: BS: Pope 'condones condom use in some cases
From: Joe Offer
Date: 23 Nov 10 - 09:28 PM

Well, I have to take Steve's "logic" to task. He says:

HIV is not passed on by promiscuity. It is passed on by someone who has it to someone who hasn't.

Trouble is, Steve, the more sex partners you have, the better chance you have of coming across one who has HIV.
If you and your mate have a lifelong relationship and you don't have other sex partners, your chance of getting a sexually transmitted disease is slim to none. Sexual fidelity does help control the spread of disease. So do condoms. To deny the efficacy of either, is equally silly.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Pope 'condones condom use in some cases
From: Charley Noble
Date: 23 Nov 10 - 10:25 PM

That is certainly a bold step for a Pope, almost brings him and the Church into the 20th century.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Pope 'condones condom use in some cases
From: Joe Offer
Date: 23 Nov 10 - 10:42 PM

You're about right there, Charley. Still, it's a hell of a lot better than the last Pope did.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Pope 'condones condom use in some cases
From: Smokey.
Date: 23 Nov 10 - 11:10 PM

HIV is not passed on by promiscuity. It is passed on by someone who has it to someone who hasn't.

I took that literally - it doesn't deny the obvious; that promiscuity will spread the disease faster.

It's a step forward - and they certainly need the credibility points at the moment. The turnout for Benny's recent gig at Cofton Park in Birmingham was about 60,000 but they were expecting 80,000.

Subject: RE: BS: Pope 'condones condom use in some cases
From: akenaton
Date: 24 Nov 10 - 06:00 AM

Steve...If a man picked up a 14 or 15 year old girl and had sex with her, he would not be charged with "paedophilia", he would be charged with rape or sexual assault.......why is it different for men who rape youths?......do you need me to tell you?

The crimes were called paedophilia, not to protect the perpetrators, not to protect the victims, not to protect the RC church but to protect the "liberal" view of homosexual practice.

and the media will make sure the "liberal" view is the view of the general public pretty soon.

There is right and there is wrong, the Popes job is to give guidance to humanity, not turn himself into a media star.....Sometimes stating what is right can make one very unpopular but Benedict will stick to his guns.

Joe is wrong to compare him unfavourably with more "liberal" Popes, times have changed hiv is an epidemic amongst MSM and if they are unwilling or unable to ammend their sexual behaviour it will destroy them.....and many more besides.

Subject: RE: BS: Pope 'condones condom use in some cases
From: Ed T
Date: 24 Nov 10 - 06:28 AM

... "the more sex partners you have, the better chance you have of coming across one who has HIV".

Not necessarily true.

You can only have one sex partner, ever, and still get AIDS, if that person has it. It is rare to find a person who has only had one sex partner, even in the RC church and marriage (stats seem to indicate that all over). And, it only takes that one encounter, if you have unprotected sex.

Subject: RE: BS: Pope 'condones condom use in some cases
From: Ed T
Date: 24 Nov 10 - 06:45 AM

Paedophilia is, the large or exclusive sexual attraction of an adult to children, male or female. Sexual contact does not have to occur, but it is often when we see it first. In some cases priests were found to have pornographic pictures of children, but no evidence of sexual activity was proven. These people could reasonably be classified as paedophiles.

In most countries, people who have sexual contact with children are not charged with paedophilia, there are normally charged with other legal offenses, such as rape, sexual interference, etc.

So, when priests, who are in a position of power, mostly (or exclusively) seek out or have sexual activity with male or female minors (children), it is fair to call them paedophiles. That does not mean they are not also rapists.

Subject: RE: BS: Pope 'condones condom use in some cases
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 24 Nov 10 - 06:54 AM

Well, I have to take Steve's "logic" to task. He says:
HIV is not passed on by promiscuity. It is passed on by someone who has it to someone who hasn't.

Trouble is, Steve, the more sex partners you have, the better chance you have of coming across one who has HIV.
If you and your mate have a lifelong relationship and you don't have other sex partners, your chance of getting a sexually transmitted disease is slim to none. Sexual fidelity does help control the spread of disease. So do condoms. To deny the efficacy of either, is equally silly.

Actually, Joe, it was someone else who claimed the logic for me. I stated an incontrovertible fact, that's all. Right,so in a world in which people went around blithely and blindly having unprotected sex with all and sundry, your argument applies. But underlying what I said is that it does not have to be that way. You can have sex with lots of different people and always insist on condoms. You can have sex with lots of different people and avoid the riskiest sexual practices. You can have sex with lots of different people after you've known them for a while and checked them out. You could be having sex in an area where there is no HIV (like we all were half a century ago). Your correlation under any of these circumstances founders at least somewhat if not almost completely. What my four scenarios have in common is education. I've said it many times in other contexts (such as how we can cut the numbers of unwanted pregnancies and therefore abortions): the answer, or at least a very big part of it, is education. Good education for sex, relationships and self-respect. And the removal of faux-moral barriers to using condoms, of course. What we pejoratively and moralisingly refer to as promiscuous behaviour (and I note that you snook that moral buzzword "fidelity" in there) may be the norm in many countries and in certain communities in other countries. You will not change that behaviour (and who's to say it's wrong anyway? Western values??) by moralising at people and hectoring them about how they're promoting HIV. That just has that horrid, evangelical, opportunistic Christian stench about it. The Catholic Church has serially demonstrated that you don't change behaviour by moralising at people. What did the Church ever do to cut abortion rates! What we need is education, education, education.

Subject: RE: BS: Pope 'condones condom use in some cases
From: Ed T
Date: 24 Nov 10 - 07:04 AM

A good read on paedophiles and what makes some with this condition tick (though there are many sources on the internet).

Note that some paedophiles prefer males, some females, and others whicherver is mostly available, with easy access. Stress,isolation and opportunity can bring out the latent paedophilia desires.

http://www.radcliffe-oxford.com/books/samplechapter/7742/Powell_02-1002ae60rdz.pdf

Subject: RE: BS: Pope 'condones condom use in some cases
From: GUEST,Patsy
Date: 24 Nov 10 - 07:06 AM

There was a case here in the UK where a woman knowing full well that she was HIV positive deliberately omitted to tell a man / it could have been more but anyway she was bitter and angry and thought she would reek a bit of revenge on the unsuspecting men. All I am saying is that you cannot know the state of mind or situation of every individual. I think she got a jail sentence. Perhaps it was as much the fault of the men not wearing a condom. Talking to other women it is surprising the number of men who will still avoid or agree to not wearing one, even men who are pretty savvy and intelligent when push comes to shove.

The Pope has got to start somewhere I agree and I suppose even if it is a little it's better than not at all.

Subject: RE: BS: Pope 'condones condom use in some cases
From: Ed T
Date: 24 Nov 10 - 07:08 AM

"The Catholic Church has serially demonstrated that you don't change behaviour by moralising at people". I recall Joe saying that most RCs do what they feel is right for them relating to sex, not what the church (Rome) tells them.

Subject: RE: BS: Pope 'condones condom use in some cases
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 24 Nov 10 - 07:49 AM

What we need is education, education, education. STEVE SHAW

In England … education produces no effect whatsoever.
Oscar Wilde (1856-1900) Irish poet and dramatist.<<<<<<
==========
Regret to say, I think Oscar had it right, insofar as the sort of anti-AIDS propaganda [& anti-smoking & alcoholism & gambling & other such abuses] is concerned. How many campaigns have we seen about them? & how many have had any significant success ~ honest, now? Only exception I can think of is a matter of force-majeure rather than propaganda [or 'education' if you prefer]: the way that the quite recent legislation against smoking in places of public access has been successful & accepted. But you can hardly legislate against sexual-intercourse occurring in such places!

I make these observations with no sort of satisfaction; they merely seem to me to describe and postulate an observable phenomenon.

~Michael~

Subject: RE: BS: Pope 'condones condom use in some cases
From: akenaton
Date: 24 Nov 10 - 07:52 AM

From Encyclopedia Brittanica

Encyclopedia
paedophilia

psychosexual disorder in which an adult's arousal and sexual gratification occur primarily through sexual contact with prepubescent children. The typical pedophile is unable to find satisfaction in an adult sexual relationship and may have low self-esteem, seeing sexual activity with a child as less threatening than that with an adult. Most pedophiles are men; the condition is extremely rare in women.


Learn more about paedophilia with a free trial on Britannica.com.

NB PREPUBESCENT CHILDREN.

Subject: RE: BS: Pope 'condones condom use in some cases
From: akenaton
Date: 24 Nov 10 - 08:09 AM

Exactly so MtGM, there is much more information and less stigma than there was say 10 years ago, but the homosexual hiv figures keep rising while all other demographics are falling.

I repeat the question, is it simply that homosexuals are vastly and dangerously more promiscuous than heteros?....is it part of male/male sex to never be content with up to half a dozen lifetime sexual partners(that appears to be the norm for heteros), or is there some other reason for the high incidence of aids amongst homosexuals?

Should we be promoting the lifestyle, when this state of affairs exists?

Does our political agenda mean more to us than the deaths of hundreds of thousands of young men?

Subject: RE: BS: Pope 'condones condom use in some cases
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 24 Nov 10 - 08:10 AM

But underlying what I said is that it does not have to be that way. You can have sex with lots of different people and always insist on condoms...etc(Steve Shaw24 Nov 10 - 06:54 AM) Using condoms while you are doing all that reduces the risk, but it doesn't in fact eliminate it, and that reduced risk increases with numbers.

Subject: RE: BS: Pope 'condones condom use in some cases
From: Ed T
Date: 24 Nov 10 - 09:26 AM

"puberty The stage in the development of humans and other primates marked by the development of secondary sex characteristics, including menarche in females. In humans, puberty occurs at the onset of adolescence, between the ages of about 11 and 14 in girls and 13 and 16 in boys".The term has a range of definitions as found in psychiatry, psychology, the vernacular, and law enforcement.


"The International Statistical Classification of Diseases and Related Health Problems defines pedophilia as "a sexual preference for children, boys or girls or both, usually of prepubertal or early pubertal age."[5] Under this system's criteria, a person 16 years of age or older meets the definition if they have a persistent or predominant sexual preference for prepubescent children at least five years younger than them"



http://www.thefreedictionary.com/puberty

Subject: RE: BS: Pope 'condones condom use in some cases
From: Ed T
Date: 24 Nov 10 - 09:29 AM

Sorry, the last sentence in the first paragraph in my first post should have been under pedophilia, not puberty, as below>

"puberty The stage in the development of humans and other primates marked by the development of secondary sex characteristics, including menarche in females. In humans, puberty occurs at the onset of adolescence, between the ages of about 11 and 14 in girls and 13 and 16 in boys".

"The International Statistical Classification of Diseases and Related Health Problems defines pedophilia as "a sexual preference for children, boys or girls or both, usually of prepubertal or early pubertal age."[5] Under this system's criteria, a person 16 years of age or older meets the definition if they have a persistent or predominant sexual preference for prepubescent children at least five years younger than them"

"The term (pedophilia) has a range of definitions as found in psychiatry, psychology, the vernacular, and law enforcement".

Subject: RE: BS: Pope 'condones condom use in some cases
From: akenaton
Date: 24 Nov 10 - 10:15 AM

Dont pick out rare examples Ed.

Puberty is occuring earlier all the time, at present the norm is between 10 and 12
The majority of those assaulted were between 11 and 17.
These examples came from the Boston priest abuse study.

Subject: RE: BS: Pope 'condones condom use in some cases
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 24 Nov 10 - 10:23 AM

McGrath, I didn't say anything about eliminating the risk. However, reducing the risk would reduce the number of infected people in the long term, which would in turn reduce the incidence of transmission further.

MtheGM, the education has to be good education. Education for sex and relationships can go right across the school curriculum. The approach must be holistic. It isn't about diagrams, anonymous questions about oral sex posted in shoe-boxes, the school nurse coming in to do a "special" or demonstrations of condoms being rolled on test-tubes. Context is everything. The context of sex and relationships is the context of our whole lives, no compartments. Education, at least in the UK, has never got anywhere near to addressing this properly. We get nuts and bolts spiced with religious moralising. It isn't only not good enough, it's the wrong approach.

As for "promoting this lifestyle," I'm not aware that that is what's done. In any case, good education would give people the confidence and nous to make good choices. It isn't a question of promoting one thing over another. It's a question of dropping the moralising and getting practical.

Subject: RE: BS: Pope 'condones condom use in some cases
From: akenaton
Date: 24 Nov 10 - 10:36 AM

Would you please answer the pertinent questions?

Subject: RE: BS: Pope 'condones condom use in some cases
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 24 Nov 10 - 10:48 AM

It's a question of dropping the moralising and getting practical

Getting practical to me would include finding the partner that is right for you and sticking with him/her..

(or in my case with my problems dropping the desires altogether)

Subject: RE: BS: Pope 'condones condom use in some cases
From: Ed T
Date: 24 Nov 10 - 11:20 AM

"Dont pick out rare examples"

Maybe, that is what you have tried to do by citing one source, when the definition differs broadly?

There are many definitions.

What is it exactly you are trying to prove?
Is it something anti homosexual?

Or is it an attempt to belittle the pain and suffering children were put through by the aqctions of these priests?

Please be clear, rather than beating around the edges?

Subject: RE: BS: Pope 'condones condom use in some cases
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 24 Nov 10 - 11:23 AM

We will better prevent the deaths of "hundreds of thousands of young men" by education than by any other means. People who want to have sex are going to have sex. If you can find a way of cutting down on that save by issuing all men with padlocked barbed-wire underpants you're a better man than I am.

As for moralising about gay men's "lifestyles", I'm not about to do that. It simply isn't my business. It would be good if they were all fully aware of the potential consequences of their activities, same as for everybody else. Hence the bit about education.

I note, by the way, that, apparently, gay men have "lifestyles," whilst the rest of us just have sex-lives. Hmm.

Subject: RE: BS: Pope 'condones condom use in some cases
From: akenaton
Date: 24 Nov 10 - 11:42 AM

Well, the first thing which should be done is for some brave qualified person to explain the link between homosexual practice and AIDs.
Then some compulsion, like regular testing of "at risk" groups contact tracing etc.

This was done in Cuba in the eighties and they now have one of the lowest infection rates in the world......in a country which according to all perceived wisdom ought to have one of the highest.

What are you Hmming about? Homosexuality is an unusual sexual lifestyle......Heterosexuality is the norm; and please dont play games.

Subject: RE: BS: Pope 'condones condom use in some cases
From: akenaton
Date: 24 Nov 10 - 11:47 AM

Education is provided in cartloads, it seems to have been taken on board by every demographic except the one with by far the highest rates of infection.
Homosexual infection rates continue to rise annually despite the huge amounts of money being spent on education.

Subject: RE: BS: Pope 'condones condom use in some cases
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 24 Nov 10 - 12:03 PM

hmm, I.m tolerant but peronal belief would make homosexuality a sin for me but some of this is reading to me (or maybe I'm missreading) dangerously like it is being blamed for AIDS.

I'd feel fairly sure all those suffering kids in Africa were not born out of homosexual relationships.!

Subject: RE: BS: Pope 'condones condom use in some cases
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 24 Nov 10 - 12:24 PM

What are you Hmming about? Homosexuality is an unusual sexual lifestyle......Heterosexuality is the norm; and please dont play games

Good grief. I thought attitudes like this were long-outmoded. Awful stuff.

Subject: RE: BS: Pope 'condones condom use in some cases
From: frogprince
Date: 24 Nov 10 - 12:33 PM

"Homosexuality is an unusual sexual lifestyle......Heterosexuality is the norm"

That much, as worded, is a plain as the nose on anyone's face; the majority are hetero, a minority are homosexual.

"The norm" Is a point, or area, on a distribution chart; any characteristic, of anything, is either within or outside any defined range. Whether to stigmatize and denigrate a given thing that is atypical, is an entirely different matter.

Subject: RE: BS: Pope 'condones condom use in some cases
From: akenaton
Date: 24 Nov 10 - 01:20 PM

"What is it exactly you are trying to prove?
Is it something anti homosexual?".....ED

NO! you stupid fuckers, it's anti death and disease!
YOU are the ones who seem content to let things go on as they are.

As far as I am concerned homosexuals could shag one another till they were blue in the face....IF there was no chance of catching of spreading a deadly disease. Unfortunately the figures speak for themselves...44 times more likely to contract the disease, life expectancy well below heterosexuals, almost 1 in 5 homosexuals carrying the virus.(all CDC figures)

And you say do nothing!

"What are you Hmming about? Homosexuality is an unusual sexual lifestyle......Heterosexuality is the norm; and please dont play games" AK

"Good grief. I thought attitudes like this were long-outmoded. Awful stuff." SS

Playing games again Steven...If you cant dispute what I say, just put down the tar brush!

Subject: RE: BS: Pope 'condones condom use in some cases
From: akenaton
Date: 24 Nov 10 - 01:26 PM

I apologise for using the term "stupid fuckers".
I dont think any of you are stupid......Its something much worse than that.

Subject: RE: BS: Pope 'condones condom use in some cases
From: Ed T
Date: 24 Nov 10 - 01:27 PM

"What is it exactly you are trying to prove?
Is it something anti homosexual?".....ED

"NO! you stupid fuckers, it's anti death and disease!
YOU are the ones who seem content to let things go on as they are".

So, what does that have to do with what you raise regarding RC priests, puberty and the sexual abuse of children and RC pedophilia in Boston, or elsewhere?

BTW, I suspect sex with a priest *regardless of its nature) may be much safer than with random sex on the street? :)

Subject: RE: BS: Pope 'condones condom use in some cases
From: GUEST,999
Date: 24 Nov 10 - 01:31 PM

This decision is between the Pope and the people who listen to or observe his dictates or pontifications. It would be a good thing to identify yourself as either Catholic or non-Catholic. Folks who are anti-religious ain`t never gonna have anything good to say about so-called organized religion or most anything to do with it.

IMO and FWIW

Subject: RE: BS: Pope 'condones condom use in some cases
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 24 Nov 10 - 01:48 PM

Well, phew, the level of debate goes stratospheric. Blast away and you lose, unfortunately. I never said do nothing. The very opposite in fact. You want gay people compulsorily tested. Wow, what a great idea. I look forward to seeing how you propose this should be done. Don't forget to lock up all the human rights organisations before you start. Anything else? Compulsory daily bromine doses? Yep, beats education every time!

Subject: RE: BS: Pope 'condones condom use in some cases
From: akenaton
Date: 24 Nov 10 - 01:51 PM

"So, what does that have to do with what you raise regarding RC priests, puberty and the sexual abuse of children and RC pedophilia in Boston, or elsewhere?"

I was simply trying to make clear the definition of paedophilia.
Someone had described the criminals as "paedophiles".

Subject: RE: BS: Pope 'condones condom use in some cases
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 24 Nov 10 - 01:56 PM

But you failed to distinguish between what you called simple homosexual assault and the homosexual assault of vulnerable children by people in positions of trust and power. I suggest that there is something there that aggravates the "simple homosexual assault" by quite a large margin.

Subject: RE: BS: Pope 'condones condom use in some cases
From: akenaton
Date: 24 Nov 10 - 02:04 PM

For education to work, people must pay attention, that does not seem to be happening in the homosexual community.

However If homosexuals do not self regulate their behaviour and the infection rates continue to rise, society will have no option but take action......this was hinted at in the CDC fact sheet.

If this was happening in any other demographic(even IDU's) it would be considered a disaster and measures brought in to combat it.

As "gay rights" are a "liberal" cause celebre even the medical establishment is afraid to tackle the issue head on.

Your tar brush gets into every corner, doesn't it.

I fear the thread is drifting, so I will say no more, unless forced to.

Subject: RE: BS: Pope 'condones condom use in some cases
From: Brian May
Date: 24 Nov 10 - 02:32 PM

Well . . . as long as the priests use condoms when visiting male prostitutes, or raping the kids in their care, everything is fine.

A bit OTT ? . . yes, so are their crimes and so is their boss's naivety.

BUT . . . as Arthur said, it gives good RCs (and there ARE millions of them) the option to control both their health and population concurrently.

As has been observed above, it brings the RC church into the 20th Century (sad fact is, we are all in the 21st). But it IS undeniably progress.

Subject: RE: BS: Pope 'condones condom use in some cases
From: Arthur_itus
Date: 24 Nov 10 - 02:34 PM

100

Subject: RE: BS: Pope 'condones condom use in some cases
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 24 Nov 10 - 02:39 PM

I am saying that the education we currently provide (at least in the UK, as I can't speak for anywhere else) is inadequate and often ofthe wrong kind. I was involved in it in secondary schools for 25 years and I found it to be a very frustrating role. Almost without hope in fact. Even if it were better than it currently is, things would not exactly helped by people claiming that homosexual people are anomalous or abnormal, as has been suggested here. They are simply at one end of a big spectrum of sexual behaviour (or let's even draw the spectrum as a big circle instead). People who think gay people are anomalous or in some way abnormal, or who characterise them as a group as promiscuous, are betraying the sort of prejudice that actually emanates from the inadequate education I'm on about.

Subject: RE: BS: Pope 'condones condom use in some cases
From: Ed T
Date: 24 Nov 10 - 02:48 PM

"For education to work, people must pay attention."

That's a given. There are techniques using face to face information and "social marketing techniques", rather than preaching down to people from holy perches, or passing out shiny brochures randomally on the street.

Subject: RE: BS: Pope 'condones condom use in some cases
From: Joe Offer
Date: 24 Nov 10 - 03:53 PM

Steve Shaw, you post at 6:54 AM was very rational...not that I'm very rational at that hour...

You speak about "moralising at people and hectoring them about how they're promoting HIV." I think you might be surprised that you won't hear that kind of moralizing in most Catholic churches. I don't agree with its prohibition of birth control, but the Humanae Vitae encyclical of Pope Paul VI in 1968 is a good example of how the Catholic Church speaks of sexual intercourse as something sacred and beautiful. Even if you don't agree with all its conclusions, it is a very rational and respectful document. You won't hear the "tsk, tsk" moralizing from the pulpit very often, not even about abortion. The "tsk, tsk" stuff comes from small-minded, rigid people who have their own agenda.

As far as I can tell, Catholic charities do not spend a lot of money on "abstinence only" education programs - that silly project was paid for by American taxpayers, courtesy of the Bush Administration. Catholic charities DO expend a lot of money treating HIV victims. No, they don't promote condoms, but I've never heard of a Catholic-sponsored program intended to oppose the use of condoms.

So, please don't paint the Catholic interests with such a dark brush. They're far less doctrinaire and far less moralistic than some people assume them to be. Certainly, we have our extremist idiots - but so does every group.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Pope 'condones condom use in some cases
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 24 Nov 10 - 09:57 PM

I have difficutly with some things RC Joe and when my attempted Christian head is working, I would be non-denominational but yes to tar everyone who has religious beliefs with the same brush would be stupid.

Personally as failed Christian, once in a while I try to give to Health Help International

Subject: RE: BS: Pope 'condones condom use in some cases
From: Joe Offer
Date: 25 Nov 10 - 01:47 AM

I have difficulty with some things RC, too, Jon. This evening, I heard my Irish-born pastor tell me things would be a lot better for Catholics if there were no celibacy requirement for priests. I think he's right, but that's not the only problem.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Pope 'condones condom use in some cases
From: Brian May
Date: 25 Nov 10 - 07:49 AM

In the days of tobacco advertising being non PC, it does give a whole revival of the expression 'Roll your own'.

Sorry to inject childish humour here, but we've all been a bit serious about (rightly), but perhaps we need to put it down now.

Perhaps we're all a little wiser and can agree he's actually the first Pope to move FORWARDS with this.

Even for him, I can say 'credit where credit's due'.

Akenaton - I'll even apologise for being personal with you, I don't know you an cannot make the assertion I did. But feelings do run high on matters such as these, mine did too.

'Leopards can't change their spots - thank God we're human . . . we can'

Subject: RE: BS: Pope 'condones condom use in some cases
From: GUEST,Steamin' Willie
Date: 25 Nov 10 - 11:16 AM

Just had a gander through this thread for the first time.

As ever, stereotypes to the fore!

Joe Offer sees the logic in the old German dude's reasoning and wishes everybody would see him in context rather than soundbite.

Akenaton goes back to form with his homophobic rants.

Most others can't see what ramblings of the Pope has to do with them.

So, is there anything left for Willie to cover? (Sorry.. couldn't resist it.)

Well actually, there is.

Despite my misgivings of the Pope's power of influence over a huge percentage of the world's population, despite my concern that the "control" side of religion is more prominent than the "moral living" side of things...

I actually applaud him for coming off the fence somewhat. Yes, he has said things in a way that doesn't alienate the bigoted end of his congregation, he hasn't said anything that could be misinterpreted as condoning promiscuity.. But, he is the first leader of left footers to actually come out and acknowledge the advantages to society of contraception.

It doesn't mean I suddenly applaud gilded palaces being built alongside unsanitary slums in South America. it doesn't mean I agree with Catholic clergy having unregulated access to vulnerable people, it doesn't mean I have any time for sexist homophobic excuses for the general position of the Vatican on many issues...

It just means this dude has shown a bit of courage and humility for once and allowed a pragmatic stance prevail.

I don't actually mind that.

Subject: RE: BS: Pope 'condones condom use in some cases
From: Smokey.
Date: 25 Nov 10 - 04:25 PM

It's undoubtedly a good thing he's done, but I can't help seeing it as a desperate effort to claw back a bit of popularity.

I only hope it results in the increased availability of condoms where they can have a significant effect, though I suppose proactive encouragement and education would be too much to expect.

Subject: RE: BS: Pope 'condones condom use in some cases
From: GUEST,Patsy
Date: 26 Nov 10 - 05:02 AM

We could all say what should or should not be but you can't foresee the behaviours of everyone in different social circumstances. If we had a crystal ball predicting that someone was going to do something potentially dangerous like unprotected sex we could go in there like Superman and stop it before it starts. LOL!

At the end of it all whether we agree on the how and why, it is reassuring that we can all discuss it like this.

Subject: RE: BS: Pope 'condones condom use in some cases
From: akenaton
Date: 26 Nov 10 - 01:04 PM

Popularity does not come into it! Sorry Smokey,we have bee bombarded by sexual education and information on condom use for decades, but the male homosexual hiv figures continue to rise.....according to CDC, in some areas 1 in 5 homosexuals carry the virus.
Even more alarming is the fact that of homosexuals who tested positive, almost one third were unaware of their hiv status.


Would anybody like to explain why this situation exists?    No! Silence or abuse is the only response I get.

Is it because the sex is between two or more males, without the steadying influence of the female, or the attachments formed by procreation, that the homosexual promiscuity rates are so high?

Or are homosexuals no more promiscuous than heteros, and there is some other factor which causes the high rates?
Have you no opinions? Do you not care? Is it none of our business?



The Pope is correct that condom use is not the answer, though it is of course helpful as infection control in the short term.
People must be made to recognise that this rise in infection rates cannot be allowed to continue until society is decimated, and the biggest obstacle to that is not the Pope, but "liberal ideology".
"All minorities should be allowed to behave exactly as they like, regardless of damage to themselves or society at large"

Subject: RE: BS: Pope 'condones condom use in some cases
From: Smokey.
Date: 26 Nov 10 - 05:05 PM

Popularity does not come into it! Sorry Smokey,we have bee bombarded by sexual education and information on condom use for decades

Ake, you seem to have misunderstood me - my fault, I was a bit vague. I meant popularity for the Pope among western RC's who have become more than a bit disillusioned with the church heirarchy of late due to the recent scandals.

As for availability, education and encouragement, I was thinking about such places as Africa where the availability of condoms is lamentably low due to the word/influence of the church which is taken somewhat more literally than it generally is around here and the U.S.

Is it because the sex is between two or more males, without the steadying influence of the female, or the attachments formed by procreation, that the homosexual promiscuity rates are so high?

Or are homosexuals no more promiscuous than heteros, and there is some other factor which causes the high rates?

I've never noticed that homosexuals are any more promiscuous than anyone else, but it's true to say they are more inclined to sodomy than heterosexual couples, which I think is the surest sexual way of transmitting the disease. I suspect though, that needle sharing is probably being underestimated as a factor as it's impossible to gather meaningful statistics due to the illegality of the drugs. There is also the crossover between the hard drug culture and prostitution to consider. Much could be done to alleviate that factor, but it seems to be generally ignored, no doubt due to conflicting political agendas.

the steadying influence of the female

Hmm.. :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Pope 'condones condom use in some cases
From: akenaton
Date: 26 Nov 10 - 05:43 PM

"the steadying influence of the female"

Hmm.. :-)

Watch it mate, the monsterous regiment are about to attack. :0)
I take your point about the Popes stance. I disagree with him about contraception, but think the Church has a point about abortion, although it is an extremely complex issue even for an atheist like me.

It must be even more difficult for committed Christians like Joe, who happen to have liberal leanings.

If god creates life do we have the right to terminate that life to make our own existence easier?

On hiv transmission, the last I heard UDU infection rates were falling, as were rates for "sex workers".....the only demographic in which the rate is consistantly rising is MSM.

Subject: RE: BS: Pope 'condones condom use in some cases
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 26 Nov 10 - 06:06 PM

If god creates life do we have the right to terminate that life to make our own existence easier?

On that personally I'd say we do not. But if you are talking in terms of bringing one in with a known illness or deformity I really struggle. Part of me would say God has given this life so I should not deny it. Another part of me would say why bring this child into what I can only see as misery? Have been unable to resolve this one in my own mind for a while...

Subject: RE: BS: Pope 'condones condom use in some cases
From: Ed T
Date: 26 Nov 10 - 06:11 PM

African-American Men Who Have Sex With Men Show Higher HIV Rates Despite Less Sexually Risky Behavior

"The authors of the study suggested stigma against homosexuality and barriers to health care and HIV testing may play an important role in the observed racial disparity in HIV rates".




http://www.aidsbeacon.com/news/2010/10/01/african-american-men-who-have-sex-with-men-show-higher-hiv-rates-despite-less-sexually

Subject: RE: BS: Pope 'condones condom use in some cases
From: akenaton
Date: 26 Nov 10 - 06:44 PM

Yes Jon...I can understand your dilemma and sometimes I'm glad that I dont have the added burden of religious belief.

I also know that to many, belief is not a burden, but a gift and a comfort.....but only if one can divorce oneself from the reality of life. God taking the place of justice......if justice ever really exists.

Subject: RE: BS: Pope 'condones condom use in some cases
From: akenaton
Date: 26 Nov 10 - 06:56 PM

Cant really understand that link Ed...Its a bit of a hotch potch.
Figures dont seem to match CDC.
Who funds "Aids Beacon"?

Additionally the old chestnut of aids rates being affected by stigma is just not true, there being much less stigma against homosexuals and aids than there was 10/20 years ago, yet infection are much higher.

Subject: RE: BS: Pope 'condones condom use in some cases
From: akenaton
Date: 26 Nov 10 - 06:59 PM

Ignoring the problem, or saying its none of our business adds to the death and disease.

Subject: RE: BS: Pope 'condones condom use in some cases
From: Ed T
Date: 26 Nov 10 - 07:23 PM

I dunno who funds it.
Maybe it is a bit odd?
Just ignore it.

Subject: RE: BS: Pope 'condones condom use in some cases
From: gnu
Date: 26 Nov 10 - 07:51 PM

Joe... "So, please don't paint the Catholic interests with such a dark brush. They're far less doctrinaire and far less moralistic than some people assume them to be."

Yer preachin to the choir, but the problem is the non-Cat'lic choir are singing too loud ta hear yee.

I liken it to sommat that don't sit well with some... once, when one a them there front door visits took place with a couple a them there holierthanthous, I said, "Good thing I'm a black Irish Cat'lic and am more tolerant of your religion than you are of mine on accounta if us Cat'lics were as fuckamental as yee, there wouldn't be none a yees."

They looked dumfounded when I shut the door on them. But, that's to be expected when you deal with the brain dead.

I suppose it's better that the brain dead are into mindless religion rather than out in the streets aimlessly but I really don't wanna be bothered with them at my door.

As for the guy in the fancy hat condoning condom use in some cases, only anti-Cat'lics will shit on that. Cat'lics have been using condoms since they were invented. Only devout Cat'lics don't. And, if they are devout Cat'lics, there is no problem. If you argue that one, you really don't understand what the man in the pointy hat is saying.

Subject: RE: BS: Pope 'condones condom use in some cases
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 26 Nov 10 - 08:22 PM

If god creates life do we have the right to terminate that life to make our own existence easier?

Yes.

But there's a lot more to it than "rights." That's the point. And you're missing the point, otherwise you wouldn't have posted such a crass question.

Subject: RE: BS: Pope 'condones condom use in some cases
From: akenaton
Date: 26 Nov 10 - 09:10 PM

Why is my rhetorical question "crass"?
and CAN a rhetorical question be "crass"?

Subject: RE: BS: Pope 'condones condom use in some cases
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 27 Nov 10 - 12:59 AM

I also know that to many, belief is not a burden, but a gift and a comfort.....but only if one can divorce oneself from the reality of life. God taking the place of justice......if justice ever really exists.

Again I find that one difficult these days...

I may believe the ultimate justice comes on the day of judgement but does that mean for example a serial killer should be walking the streets - I think not...

The only thing in this direction I try to do and constantly fail at is rather than be the judge on things I read about is to try to take some form of "there but for the grace of God go I" view. I find it really difficult.

Subject: RE: BS: Pope 'condones condom use in some cases
From: akenaton
Date: 27 Nov 10 - 04:57 AM

Well, I hope you find your way Jon, either through "God" or through the the observation and understanding of your brothers and sisters.

As you seem a very caring and thoughtful individual I hope it is by the latter.

Good Luck.

Subject: RE: BS: Pope 'condones condom use in some cases
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 27 Nov 10 - 05:04 AM

Cheers Akenaton.

The truth on me as an individual that way is that I can get drawn into arguments, can be very hot tempered in argumentative ways, go in directions I should not, etc.

OTHO thoughtful and tried - at least I hope so.

Subject: RE: BS: Pope 'condones condom use in some cases
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 27 Nov 10 - 05:18 AM

To add to that ake. I am often described by others with a POTENTIAL DESIRE to do good. But...

I just mostly make messes.

Subject: RE: BS: Pope 'condones condom use in some cases
From: akenaton
Date: 27 Nov 10 - 05:38 AM

Join the club Jon!!!!   :0)

Subject: RE: BS: Pope 'condones condom use in some cases
From: GUEST,Alan Whittle
Date: 27 Nov 10 - 07:38 AM

The kind of person who would condone a condom, could never be trusted not to profile a prophylactic.

Subject: RE: BS: Pope 'condones condom use in some cases
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Nov 10 - 10:27 AM

It isn't a rhetorical question if there's an answer. And there definitely was.

Subject: RE: BS: Pope 'condones condom use in some cases
From: akenaton
Date: 27 Nov 10 - 10:37 AM

Oh! so you know for sure that God exists?

Subject: RE: BS: Pope 'condones condom use in some cases
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Nov 10 - 11:25 AM

Here's your allegedly rhetorical question again, for your delectation.

If god creates life do we have the right to terminate that life to make our own existence easier?

"If" makes the whole thing conditional, which I was quite happy to go along with. You could also have asked "Even if God..." or "Even if God hadn't..." or "If there's a God who..." The question, whichever way you could have put it, potentially arouses varying opinions and is therefore not rhetorical. It is certainly strongly tendentious and very clumsy. It seems to assign only base motives to those people who terminate "lives," so it's insensitive as well as tendentious. On the whole, crass, whether rhetorical or not.

Subject: RE: BS: Pope 'condones condom use in some cases
From: akenaton
Date: 27 Nov 10 - 05:51 PM

Laying aside the "rhetorical" issue, surely if one believes in "god the creator", then anyone who terminates the human life which he has created has committed a crime against god?

Most terminations are not mercy killings of what will turn out to disabled children......but the termination of a young life to make the lot of the mother or of society easier.

Subject: RE: BS: Pope 'condones condom use in some cases
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Nov 10 - 06:10 PM

Well, God sets a pretty poor example by slaughtering so many embryos in the womb himself.

If you want an abortion debate I'm up for it, but that possibly demands another thread. Suffice to say I find your analysis to be crude and lacking in consideration of the contexts of the vast majority of abortions carried out. It also says nothing about how we can genuinely reduce the numbers of abortions, which, most decidedly, is not the Catholic way.

Subject: RE: BS: Pope 'condones condom use in some cases
From: akenaton
Date: 27 Nov 10 - 06:39 PM

Steve, my post to Jon was not about abortion per se, but rather concerning the dilemma facing "liberal" Christians regarding the abortion issue.
You sprung in for the kill, without familiarising yourself with the context of my point.

I'm sorry if my grammar is not quite up to your exalted standards, but there's precious little attention paid to grammar in my line of work.

I am an atheist by the way, not a Catholic.

Even so, I think it is rather a good point.

Subject: RE: BS: Pope 'condones condom use in some cases
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Nov 10 - 07:48 PM

My grammar, etc., flows naturally from the education I had in a Catholic grammar school in the north-west of England in the 60s. I do my best, though I'm acutely aware that there could well be many a flaw in my somewhat hurried posts. The main aim for me is not to show off but to communicate what I'm thinking in reasonably clear (and, hopefully, simple) language. Even after a pint or five. ;-) If it comes across as in any way "superior," then all I can say is that I don't really know any other way and that 'tis a cross I shall simply have to bear.

Subject: RE: BS: Pope 'condones condom use in some cases
From: akenaton
Date: 27 Nov 10 - 07:56 PM

Poor you!    :0)

Subject: RE: BS: Pope 'condones condom use in some cases
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Nov 10 - 08:07 PM

Yep.


Oops, I mean "yes."

Subject: RE: BS: Pope 'condones condom use in some cases
From: Joe Offer
Date: 27 Nov 10 - 09:28 PM

Steve Shaw mentions how we can genuinely reduce the numbers of abortions, which, most decidedly, is not the Catholic way.. I agree, Steve. Too many Catholic bishops have sold out to the unforgiving "pro-life" movement, which is only interested in gaining power for the right-wing extreme and proving itself right, not in reducing the number of abortions. Planned Parenthood, the hated nemesis of the "pro-life" movement, does a far better job of actually reducing the number of abortions, because it teaches responsible family planning.

-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: BS: Pope 'condones condom use in some cases
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 28 Nov 10 - 06:21 AM

That's it. I don't want to get started on abortion again, but this is just to say that I personally haven't met anyone who is in favour of abortion in the sense that abortion is a good thing. The paradox is that supposed pro-abortionists who also advocate good education for planned parenthood are, in effect, far more anti-abortion than the evangelical pro-lifers.

Subject: RE: BS: Pope 'condones condom use in some cases
From: GUEST,Alan Whittle
Date: 28 Nov 10 - 06:41 AM

So to summarise:-

1) At all times, suspect your wife of having a sexually transmitted disease
2) Position condom on erect male appendage
3) Make love to aforesaid wife, all the while thinking this will save me from a grievous illness - but no funny business, make sure you're connected to the approved orifice.
4) If you snuff it - you're on the fast trak to heaven

Subject: RE: BS: Pope 'condones condom use in some cases
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 28 Nov 10 - 06:51 AM

I'm not at all sure where you are coming from AL!!!!

1 I think there is something to be said for a faithful marriage and responsible sex.

2 I believe (unless perhaps you were to be say thrown to the lions in Roman times) there is no fast track to heaven.

Subject: RE: BS: Pope 'condones condom use in some cases
From: akenaton
Date: 28 Nov 10 - 06:56 AM

Sorry, that guest wisnae Jesus, it wi only masell!
Ah'll print it again incase some anti-lifer scrubs it....like

Aye...Haud on a minute!

There's nobody saying that in certain circumstances abortion is not a good thing.

My point is that it seems commonsense to expect a committed believer to be against the termination of human life on grounds of expediency.
How can anyone say that abortion is a good thing without qualification?

I am not one of Joe's "natural enemies" on this forum, not an atheist who thincks all spiritual thinking should be banned, but his latest post containing "Catholic bishops have sold out to the unforgiving "pro-life" movement, which is only interested in gaining power for the right-wing extreme and proving itself right, not in reducing the number of abortions", is quite insulting to people like myself, who see abortion being gradually accepted as a form of birth control.

Surely we are all "pro life" to a larger or smaller extent....if we ever find ourselves to be "anti life" it really is time to "send in the horsemen father"

Subject: RE: BS: Pope 'condones condom use in some cases
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 28 Nov 10 - 09:55 AM

The problem here is the use of terms such as "expediency" and your earlier one, "to make our own existence easier."

Whilst I don't doubt that a relatively small number of people view abortion as a convenient, last-ditch form of contraception, I think that this does not cover the vast majority of cases. Obtaining an abortion is hardly a breeze even in this day and age. It's the same old story: find a tiny number of disreputable cases around the fringes and use 'em to bolster your main argument. The tiny number of very late abortions has been used to similar effect. If we are serious about addressing the distressingly-high abortion rates we really have to start by properly articulating why the vast majority of young women who resort to abortion do so, without judgement or prejudice. It isn't helpful to blanket condemn in the way you do.

Subject: RE: BS: Pope 'condones condom use in some cases
From: akenaton
Date: 28 Nov 10 - 10:34 AM

Actually, my comment had more to do with the nature of religion than the rights or wrongs of abortion.

Subject: RE: BS: Pope 'condones condom use in some cases
From: akenaton
Date: 28 Nov 10 - 10:40 AM

I'm sorry if my language is too strong for such a refined Catholic mind, but us Scots are weel kent fur ca'in a spade a shovel, like!

Subject: RE: BS: Pope 'condones condom use in some cases
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 28 Nov 10 - 12:10 PM

My mind ceased to be a Catholic one at least 30 years ago, and no-one who knows me would ever call it "refined."

Subject: RE: BS: Pope 'condones condom use in some cases
From: Arthur_itus
Date: 28 Nov 10 - 01:54 PM

Quote from Steve Shaw
Whilst I don't doubt that a relatively small number of people view abortion as a convenient, last-ditch form of contraception, I think that this does not cover the vast majority of cases.
End of quote

Possibly the largest amount of abortions are caused by man meets girl, they have sex, man do not want to know, girl has abortion.

There are many reasons for having an abortion, but when an abortion occurs because of medical reasons, that has top priority IMHO. I condone such abortions and as far as religion is concerned, they can mind their own business.

Subject: RE: BS: Pope 'condones condom use in some cases
From: akenaton
Date: 28 Nov 10 - 02:19 PM

Steven's novel idea of people using abortion as a means of contraception will never catch on........must be a strange old place Shawsville.

Subject: RE: BS: Pope 'condones condom use in some cases
From: akenaton
Date: 28 Nov 10 - 02:33 PM

Bit "clumsy" there Steve! Blockage in the communication flow? :0)

Subject: RE: BS: Pope 'condones condom use in some cases
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 28 Nov 10 - 06:18 PM

OK, not the right word. I told you I wasn't refined. And I have an extremely heavy cold in the head. You're welcome to pick me up on the substantive issue, of course.

Subject: RE: BS: Pope 'condones condom use in some cases
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 28 Nov 10 - 06:19 PM

I'd go even further, Arthur. Not only is it none of religion's business, it's also none of my business to condone it or not.

Subject: RE: BS: Pope 'condones condom use in some cases
From: Smokey.
Date: 28 Nov 10 - 06:34 PM

It should really be an issue decided by women..

Subject: RE: BS: Pope 'condones condom use in some cases
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 28 Nov 10 - 06:44 PM

Aye, pregnant women. With lots of positive, non-judgemental support.

Subject: RE: BS: Pope 'condones condom use in some cases
From: Smokey.
Date: 28 Nov 10 - 07:34 PM

Aye, pregnant women. With lots of positive, non-judgemental support.

By and large, I think that's what happens in Blighty; I was meaning the legislation behind it. What right have men to decide whether or not it's legal? As for the Pope, it really is none of his business, though to be fair he can only advise and state ideals which by definition cannot be achieved. It is fundamentally wrong to take a life, no doubt about it, but life is seldom that straightforward and sometimes that course of action is the lesser evil.

I have to say though, I'm dead against private clinics doing it on demand for large sums of money - I suspect that's where most of the 'convenience' terminations take place.

Subject: RE: BS: Pope 'condones condom use in some cases
From: Joe Offer
Date: 28 Nov 10 - 07:43 PM

Sorry, Ake, but that's what I see out of the "pro-life" movement:

• Very little concern or compassion, not really seeming to care about the life of the woman or the fetus - just an insistence that they're right and everybody else is wrong. An emphasis on winning, not on saving lives.
• An unrealistic dependence on legislation, and legislation alone, as a means of reducing the number of abortions - and condemnation of politicians who refuse to enact such legislation, even when such legislation seems unworkable.
• Requiring adherence to the entire conservative party line, even aspects that have nothing to do with abortion - implying that one is not truly "pro-life" unless one opposes taxes, so-called "big Government," immigration, and gun control. It's also interesting to see how many "pro-life" activists religiously support of the death penalty.

Nope. Not for me. I'm against abortion, but the so-called "pro-life movement" is melodramatic and an embarrassment and a sham, and I'm dismayed that so many Catholic bishops have jumped on their bandwagon. Oh, I'm sure there are pro-life people who are compassionate and concerned; but the pro-life voices that get heard are shrill and harsh and mean-spirited.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Pope 'condones condom use in some cases
From: frogprince
Date: 28 Nov 10 - 07:58 PM

Something that I admit to not clicking on, until someone else mentioned it, leading up to the mid term elections: Every piece of literature we received for candidates for our state legislature emphasized a "pro-life" stance, bold print on first page, with the exception of one avowedly pro-choice candidate.
No one in a state legislature can do a thumb-sucking thing, one way or the other, to legislate on abortion.

Subject: RE: BS: Pope 'condones condom use in some cases
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 28 Nov 10 - 10:21 PM

Where do you sit when there is knowledge the child will be deformed or say have Aids, Joe? As stated above this is the one I can't get my own head round/

Subject: RE: BS: Pope 'condones condom use in some cases
From: Joe Offer
Date: 28 Nov 10 - 10:41 PM

Jon, I have to say that I don't have an answer for that. Especially in the case expected to be born deformed or diseased, I would think that the decision of the mother is sacred and unquestionable; and I would offer her no advice - only listening and compassion and respect. I think that listening and compassion and respect are far more important than taking the moral high ground.

Two women I know and love very much have had abortions. I think I'm glad I didn't know them at the time they had to make that decision. It wasn't a decision they made lightly - they were in very difficult relationships with the men who fathered the children, and didn't feel it was safe to bear the children. I grieve the loss of the children, but I have to respect the decision made by these women I love.
You know, I think that's all I can and should do - grieve the loss, grieve the sorrow the women have to endure in making such a decision, and listen and offer compassion. Somehow, I think my grief and compassion will do more to reduce the number of abortions, than any amount of condemnation. That's not what's considered to be the "party line" for Catholics, but I know a lot of priests who would respond the same way. They can't bring themselves to condemn people for anything done through an honest decision.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Pope 'condones condom use in some cases
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 28 Nov 10 - 10:48 PM

Condemnation I think (and have done it with so many things) is IMO amongst the worst traps we can fall into. It's one thing to state a belief (eg. in general I am anti abortion) but condemnation gets no one anywhere. Your compassion might though...

Subject: RE: BS: Pope 'condones condom use in some cases
From: akenaton
Date: 29 Nov 10 - 05:23 AM

Joe....Of course it should not be a "political issue" inthe sense you mention ....That puts and end to real discussion and understanding of the problems involved.....We all line up in our political battle lines and stick in our ear plugs.

But the same applies to the promotion of homosexuality and the social, ethical and theological problems that brings up.
You, even as a devout Christian, seem to define yourself first and foremost in political terms.


The problem is that we no longer have the inclination to examine and discuss important social and moral issues.
It is much easier to define ourselves as Liberals or Conservatives, and live our lives according to the labels.

Of course most of us who shut of the reasoning switch end up by becoming "liberals"......what a waste!

Subject: RE: BS: Pope 'condones condom use in some cases
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 29 Nov 10 - 05:30 AM

Ake, yes. It is all to easy for example for me as I voted that way put on a yellow badge, say you put on (I'm not saying these are your beliefs just trying to do a for example) red badge and vote labour and Joe if he lived here *again with no implications about Joe) put on a Blue one and vote conservative.

Thought can too easily go out of the window!

Subject: RE: BS: Pope 'condones condom use in some cases
From: akenaton
Date: 29 Nov 10 - 06:53 AM

Thats it Jon......always remember they are all the enemy (the political factions)

Always keep an open mind, no matter where you stand....left or right.

Its too easy to say the left/right dont think about the issues, so I wont either.